Serious Crimean war (Russia seizing Ukraine). Discussion and thoughts?

[Eiffels]

I'm concerned about your ability to maintain this kind of discussion because you not only made childish insults based on perceived opinion in a "serious" discussion thread, but you called what you're posting objective, let alone your comparisons to Nazi Germany or your contention that it would result in a world war. The only fact of the matter is that Russia sent troops into Ukraine; everything else is up to interpretation. I made references to similar things (read: not same) that have happened in the same region with more relevant context and nothing you contended came of them. You should reconsider going back to r/politics (or seeing from your profile, your high school debate team).

His comparison to German aggression at the beginning of WWII is flawed, but it's not exactly an unpopular opinion either. If I remember correctly, Hillary Clinton was drawing the exact same comparison a few days ago.

That said, Vanguardsoul seems to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the events in Ukraine. The violence and death of the past few weeks was primarily during protests in the streets of Kiev against Yanukovych, and it was primarily carried out by Berkut, the special operations arm of the Ukrainian police, at Yanukovych's behest.

So far, the Russian occupation of Crimea has been completely bloodless, at least to the best of my knowledge. Despite the military nature of the Russian intervention, it appears that negotiations between Russia and the West will continue.

 

[Cresselia~~]

I don't think China cares at all.

There isn't a lot of Chinese news about this, and we know nothing much about it.
I'm actually interested to know what's going on, but the news doesn't seem to get through.
Maybe we are purposefully kept away from the news, I would assume.

Can someone link me to the English news about this?

 

[Eiffels]

The Guardian has a very useful live updates page here. Also, the BBC has a really good page here. I'd go to the BBC first to get more background information, but the Guardian updates with more detail.

 

[New World Order]

I don't think China cares at all.

There isn't a lot of Chinese news about this, and we know nothing much about it.
I'm actually interested to know what's going on, but the news doesn't seem to get through.
Maybe we are purposefully kept away from the news, I would assume.

Can someone link me to the English news about this?

China's too busy with it's own territorial disputes in Senkaku, the Philippines etc to care.

 

[frogoholic101]

Why would China be bothered with Ukraine? It doesn't concern them at all and they're not all that friendly with Russia to care. If anything, they're looking East for expansion.
Given that an uprising has overthrown the democratically elected Yanukovych and a fair amount of the opposition to him was from neo-fascists with an agenda against ethnic Russians, the situation is very different from Nazi Germany's expansion. Coupled with the fact that Russia has a lease on most Crimean ports until 2042 and a referendum was going to be held in the future (which has now been brought nearer) I'd say Putin's actions are somewhat justified. Clearly putting soldiers in puts pressure on Ukraine but as yet (IIRC) no shots have been fired except by Ukrainians against Ukrainians. Crimea is very pro-Russia and I image they'll vote to join the country anyway. WWIII is hyperbolic for what has been quite relaxed so far.

 

[VanguardSoul]

I'm concerned about your ability to maintain this kind of discussion because you not only made childish insults based on perceived opinion in a "serious" discussion thread, but you called what you're posting objective, let alone your comparisons to Nazi Germany or your contention that it would result in a world war. The only fact of the matter is that Russia sent troops into Ukraine; everything else is up to interpretation. I made references to similar things (read: not same) that have happened in the same region with more relevant context and nothing you contended came of them. You should reconsider going back to r/politics (or seeing from your profile, your high school debate team).

They also killed over 200 Ukrianian citizens who did nothing wrong... You kind of forgot about that bud

 

[Demoness]

They also killed over 200 Ukrianian citizens who did nothing wrong... You kind of forgot about that bud

Okay, you seriously need to fucking stop this. If you want to actually have a decent serious argument, then don't go and make sarcastic little snippets at everyone just because they point out some flaw in your argument. You aren't refuting anything or making your argument any better: you just end up looking like a goddamn child.

 

[Crux]

yo but seriously anyone who non-ironically voted for any option but the second watches too much fox news

 

[VanguardSoul]

Okay, you seriously need to fucking stop this. If you want to actually have a decent serious argument, then don't go and make sarcastic little snippets at everyone just because they point out some flaw in your argument. You aren't refuting anything or making your argument any better: you just end up looking like a goddamn child.

Hey I guess this is your first time on this thread; that's fine. But you will be kicked from the thread if you don't stick to discussing the topic of the thread. If you don't have anything to contribute that has to do with the topic, please don't comment :) thanks!

 

[VanguardSoul]

Guys this is getting out of hand... Let's just keep it to the politics alright? Enough arguing, I don't want to have to ask Cookie if he can delete the thread just cause a few people are straying so far off topic. Let's keep it what it's about. From here on out anyone that strays too far for no reason will be reported to the media staff. Thank you to everyone for your contributions so far :D

 

[Age of Kings]

Protip: I'm not a guy either

EDIT;; We'll keep it to the politics, it's just that you're dismissing counterarguments and making petty insults while crying when people disagree with you, ergo not conducive to discussion. I'm asking you to respond to the argument rather than dismissing the points made outright with your own claims.

 

[VanguardSoul]

Protip: I'm not a guy either

EDIT;; We'll keep it to the politics, it's just that you're dismissing counterarguments, ergo not conducive to discussion

From here on out let's keep it to the threads topic strictly okay? I don't know if you have something against the west, if your anti-western or something, if you are that's fine. Quite frankly if you take a look at your own messages many of them stray completely off topic, making comments such as "go redo school", and "go back to debate club". If you continue to make these pointless comments I'll be notifying a higher power (media staff). Let's just stick to the topic and make legitimate comments from now on alright?

 

[Thorns]

i just wanna know where this guy went and why he isn't stepping in

 

[Yeti]

prince marth is very demanding thorns pls respect the relationship

 

[aurora]

I think Kevin Rudd will save us all by himself. He is not being called Kiev-in Rudd for no reason. Hail Kevin Rudd!

 

[RODAN]

is putin trying to summon grima

 

[Acklow]

Being 3/4 Russian 1/4 Ukranian I welcome the grand return of Mother Russia to Ukraine.

 

[VanguardSoul]

Being 3/4 Russian 1/4 Ukranian I welcome the grand return of Mother Russia to Ukraine.

That's interesting! May I ask what you think of Russia wanting the Ukrainian speaking half of Ukraine as well? Do you believe it's still fair?

 

[Abra Kapocus]

I love how both US and Russian media paints this whole crisis as a game between "good oligarch" and "bad oligarch," with each side rooting for their own "team" per se. EU = good guys, Russia = bad guys, and vice versa. Whatever happened to self-determination? Is that not a thing anymore?

I lament the misguidedness of the pro-EU protesters, believing that joining the EU will make them all a lot better off, when in reality they're screwed no matter who takes over. At the same time, I can understand their desperation, enough that they willfully overlook the EU's penchant to inflict devastating austerity measures on European countries (if Greece is any indication). If the EU wins, the West will cheer with disingenuous proclamations of Ukrainian "freedom" when the real reason they're cheering is so now Ukraine will play ball like good little globalist neolibs. Obviously our imperialist oligarchs here in the US who are calling for war are even worse, but yeah, go ahead with your sanctions, Obama, as if such an avenue hurts anyone but the citizens and doesn't just stir up more resentment towards us. *cough*Iran*cough*

Also, this.

 

[Cresselia~~]

Why would China be bothered with Ukraine? It doesn't concern them at all and they're not all that friendly with Russia to care. If anything, they're looking East for expansion.
Given that an uprising has overthrown the democratically elected Yanukovych and a fair amount of the opposition to him was from neo-fascists with an agenda against ethnic Russians, the situation is very different from Nazi Germany's expansion. Coupled with the fact that Russia has a lease on most Crimean ports until 2042 and a referendum was going to be held in the future (which has now been brought nearer) I'd say Putin's actions are somewhat justified. Clearly putting soldiers in puts pressure on Ukraine but as yet (IIRC) no shots have been fired except by Ukrainians against Ukrainians. Crimea is very pro-Russia and I image they'll vote to join the country anyway. WWIII is hyperbolic for what has been quite relaxed so far.

Exactly.
So I don't understand why somebody else said it will be World War III if China comes in.
(Due to some forum error, I couldn't quote properly)

I don't think it's going to be World War III at all.
I mean, which other country will jab in anyway? Not one that's very strong anyway.
At least certainly not China, it's busy with settling down the different stance between the officials. (Yes, it's getting messy inside) Senkaku isn't even their top priority now.
And even if China jabs in, it wouldn't be much different-- most of China's technology come from Russia anyway. China is not that strong.

 

[VanguardSoul]

Exactly.
So I don't understand why somebody else said it will be World War III if China comes in.
(Due to some forum error, I couldn't quote properly)

I don't think it's going to be World War III at all.
I mean, which other country will jab in anyway? Not one that's very strong anyway.
At least certainly not China, it's busy with settling down the different stance between the officials. (Yes, it's getting messy inside) Senkaku isn't even their top priority now.
And even if China jabs in, it wouldn't be much different-- most of China's technology come from Russia anyway. China is not that strong.

I'd have to disagree. China might not be the most advanced army, but they have more than enough man power to hold their own.

 

[frogoholic101]

I'd have to disagree. China might not be the most advanced army, but they have more than enough man power to hold their own.

Right, but you haven't addressed why on earth they'd want to walk into Ukraine at all

(Plus, those 200 Ukrainians were killed by... other Ukrainians, not the Russians)

 

[Trax]

Right, but you haven't addressed why on earth they'd want to walk into Ukraine at all

Even beyond that, the logistics of such an action would be rather difficult seeing as they'd have to get their army into the area somehow, this is implausible because we're talking about a peninsula so it would mean either landing on said peninsula or landing in the Ukraine proper (that or trying to cross the Black Sea, where the Russians have a naval fleet). The only way China could plausibly be involved at this point is on the Russian side, but that isn't of interest to them.

Unrelated, but the reason the Crimean Peninsula is majority ethnic Russian is because Stalin forcibly moved most of the native Tatar population (mostly to what we now know as Uzbekistan) and then settled the area with Russians. It's also worth noting that the Crimean Peninsula was put under Ukrainian control in the USSR days because it has no physical land connection to Russia and thus was easier to manage logistically that way.

 

[VanguardSoul]

Right, but you haven't addressed why on earth they'd want to walk into Ukraine at all

(Plus, those 200 Ukrainians were killed by... other Ukrainians, not the Russians)

Yeah I'm not saying China would ever do anything... Cause they wouldn't. Lol. And they were killed by other Ukainains through Russia. I mean again there's no proof, but it's what everyone's thinking and no ones saying. Russia basically owned the Ukrainian government, there's no arguing that.

 

[Minwu]

gun usage arn't cool.