Milotic

[PizzaDelivery]

Very well. I will test it tomorrow and retract my rejection.

Well tbh I saw you as one of the few people giving the defensive set the time of day, heh.

Maybe max speed is possible on the offensive set, though you're sacrificing a good amount of bulk while still not really being able to sweep. My instrict would be to play it as more of a hard-hitting tank that can take a few hits and sustain itself if needed, possibly running just enough speed to outrun min-speed Rotom, which is a common enough sight on the ladder. Still untested by me, though.

Also I'd say that a defensive set is definitely viable for the reasons stated by PizzaDelivery. Also, using Gliscor as an example again, this lets Milotic play mind games this gen with Competitive Milotic being a thing now, so that people are cautious about letting their Gliscor use Toxic in case of the Marvel Scale, but worrying about Competitive: putting them off using Defog in case of the boost.

Even with Marvel Scale, defensive Milotic doesn't want to be eating Toxic from anything, really - SubToxic Gliscor can just stall endlessly until you die. Marvel Scale mainly makes burn and paralysis less of an issue, but even so the Milotic player shouldn't fall into the trap of switching into status casually, especially if something else on the team can absorb it instead.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

So I decided to take Competitive Milotic for a spin because a team I was building would have been rather Ground-weak if I used Bisharp. I must say, it was better than I thought it would be. Is it fantastic? Not really. It's not that powerful at all if you can't get the Competitive boost, so I found it wasn't that useful against teams without Defog and/or Sticky Web; Bisharp, on the other hand, is useful regardless of whether or not your opponent runs Defog/Sticky Web. However, once it got that Competitive boost (which wasn't really what I'd call difficult, it's not like Defog is uncommon and switching in on Sticky Web is like getting a Speed-dropping Nasty Plot just for switching in) it fucking went to town... And I may have pissed my pants from laughing my ass off once, but I digress.

But anyway, with the Competitive boost, just about nothing can switch in on a Hydro Pump, and you've got coverage for the few things that can actually stomach one (except for Gyarados, except Intimidate variants won't come in on Milotic as that would trigger Competitive.) I was running maximum Speed and Timid on mine, but I can see the argument behind both max HP Modest and max Speed Timid. Max Speed Timid allowed Milotic to outrun any Dragonite, any Mamoswine (except for Scarf or something, but does anyone actually use that?), most Rotom-W, Jolly Tyranitar, and most Gliscor (especially ones running Defog.) However, max HP Modest would take hits better and would function better against teams using Sticky Web. I would probably lean towards running maximum Speed and a Timid Nature for the Pokemon myself and others have mentioned, but I can see the argument behind running more bulk.

Q&A time!

Is Milotic fantastic? No.

Would you use Milotic over Bisharp? Only if Bisharp would be worse on the team (i.e. if running Bisharp would make the team Ground weak but running Milotic wouldn't)

Does Milotic have a niche? Absolutely. In particular, it has a better defensive typing than Bisharp and, thanks to Recover, can potentially last a longer time. Now, if Milotic were a Dark/Steel-type Pokemon then I'd have a harder time justifying its use over Bisharp, but that's not the case. Milotic and Bisharp are both Pokemon that can punish your opponent for using Defog and can take advantage of Sticky Web if it's up. The similarities end there. Milotic is entirely different with regards to team synergy than Bisharp, with regards to both defensive synergy and offensive synergy. There absolutely will be teams that Milotic would fit on better than Bisharp because of how wildly different they are with regards to team synergy.

Just my two cents on the matter. I'm not QC, so it's not my call on what Milotic's analysis should look like, or even if it gets an analysis at all, but I just thought I'd give my thoughts on Milotic after testing it. I'll be honest, I thought it was going to suck big-time, but then I actually tested it and while it isn't amazing, I really can't say it sucks. While providing logs should be the OP's job, I would be willing to get logs of Milotic in action if requested.

Edit: lol, typos

 

[Colonel M]

I'll personally give this a test on Wednesday. At the moment still trying to get my pc up and running.

 

[PurpleCordial]

I don't get the point of running max speed to outspeed certain threats when your only reliable way of boosting is switching in on Sticky Web. Sure you can switch in on a predicted Defog or when you think an Intimidate user is going to switch in but when sticky web is on the field its a guaranteed 100% sure boost.

 

[trc]

I will discuss on IRC if a max HP spread is a better alternative.

 

[Colonel M]

At worst either spread should be mentioned. Though Sticky Web is a near-guarantee for a Competitive boost remember that Sticky Web is uncommon - and usually more uncommon than Defog in general.

 

[Swamp Link]

Yeah, while Sticky Web is a guaranteed boost, the point of Milotic isn't to abuse Sticky Web. Sticky Web, while viable, isn't an excellent strategy in OU right now, and it's not very common either. Milotic's job is to block or abuse Defog users. To that end, it's much more useful to be able to outspeed a defensive Mandibuzz / Zapdos / Togekiss or whatever Defogger so that you can smack them around with Ice Beam beforehand and actually have the presence to stay on the field once you get the boost. Milotic's bulk is good but not exceptional, but it has a respectable speed tier, outpacing all base 80's and below. This should be taken advantage of, and both should definitely be mentioned.

Although, it should run Modest for the power no matter what.

 

[trc]

Ok, I plan on updating the skeleton soon, so I just want to get the all-clear with QC: Does the set look good the way it is organised?

 

[Aquaslash]

Defensive milotic definitely has its uses. It's one of the main pokes I use in OU and the things it walls, it walls them well. It's also pretty decent at spreading burn thanks to Scald. As far as her vs Suicune, you're really out to do different things with them. Suicune feels like you're trying to boost as much as you can and then just chill while sleeping, eat hits and roar things away, whereas Milotic spreads burn/toxic and clears away boosts by hazing as opposed to dragon tail, and actually has staying power thanks to recover.

Granted, I've not ever really used Suicune, but I'm not of fan of the rest talk strategy in general, so there's that. The only set I've ever used this gen is Scald/Ice Beam/Haze/Recover

 

[Colonel M]

So I gave Competitive a try. It isn't too bad so long as you have the right team to bait out Defog. A lot of people don't expect it coming either (though that may change if this gets approved). Also max Speed > max HP. Even in worst case scenarios Milotic can utilize its decent base 100 SpA and okay 81 base Speed to do some work. In particular - being slower than Dragonite and Adamant Mega Heracross is just terrible.

One thing to note is that Ice Beam will 2HKO max HP / min SpD Mega Venusaur and to watch out for Zapdos (Latios to a lesser extent too).

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

So I gave Competitive a try. It isn't too bad so long as you have the right team to bait out Defog. A lot of people don't expect it coming either (though that may change if this gets approved). Also max Speed > max HP. Even in worst case scenarios Milotic can utilize its decent base 100 SpA and okay 81 base Speed to do some work. In particular - being slower than Dragonite and Adamant Mega Heracross is just terrible.

One thing to note is that Ice Beam will 2HKO max HP / min SpD Mega Venusaur and to watch out for Zapdos (Latios to a lesser extent too).

Are you talking about a Modest or Timid nature? I've always gone with a lot of HP with Modest because you can just recover off a lot of special attacks, including many Rotom-W Volt Switches and even without any investment to special defense, you can survive stuff like Gengar or Alakazam. Still, I guess outrunning stuff like Breloom, Mamoswine, Dragonite, and more defensive/slower variants of Gliscor + Landorus T comes with its uses.

 

[Magnemite]

All right, so the new strategy dex is going up very soon and there are several Pokemon, including this one, that do not currently have completed analyses. TRC., if you could please try to make this look presentable within the next day, that would be helpful. Please contact user darkie once you've made it look presentable (by that I mean "acceptable to be on-site") and refer to and update this pirate pad: https://www.piratepad.ca/p/dex_skeletons

This needs to be done by tomorrow afternoon (GMT -6), so make sure you get it done! If you can't make it look presentable in the next day, please say so in the pirate pad so someone else can make a quick skeleton of it. Thanks!

 

[trc]

Alright, the skeleton is complete. darkie

 

[epikkyogre78]

I never realized Milotic could run a decent tank set lol
Well anyway for Checks And Counters mention Dry Skin Heliolisk as it can switch into a Hydro Pump/Surf and proceed to Thunderbolt. Also mention Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn, but make sure to mention that Ferrothorn hates Hidden Power Fire.

 

[trc]

I never realized Milotic could run a decent tank set lol
Well anyway for Checks And Counters mention Dry Skin Heliolisk as it can switch into a Hydro Pump/Surf and proceed to Thunderbolt. Also mention Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn, but make sure to mention that Ferrothorn hates Hidden Power Fire.

Heliolisk can't even OHKO Milotic without HP investment, if Milotic OHKOes back with Ice Beam it will die to LO recoil. If max HP and Modest, Milotic takes 75% from Thunderbolt and OHKOes with Ice Beam or even Hidden Power Fire after Stealth Rock, and then later in the game it can Recover. Add to that that Heliolisk isn't even remotely viable in OU. Mega Venusaur is 2HKOed by Ice Beam. Ferrothorn hats Hidden Power Fire, so have to sac like Azumarill or Rotom-W to even find out its Hidden Power type, which is a nuisance. I'll give you Ferro though anyway.

 

[Colonel M]

Heliolisk is terrible.

Anyway with Milotic Modest can still outspeed Adamant Mamoswine and Adamant Dragonite. Also Timid gets the jump on Jolly Mega Heracross (after Mega Evolution).

 

[Jukain]

Mention Dragon Pulse for Kyurem-B in 'Moves'. And mention that Timid lets it outrun Adamant Exca too.

Also mention why the hell you'd use this thing ('Defiant' mon that beats Skarm and Mandi, yes please!)

Awesome job, QC Approved 1/3

 

[trc]

Ok, fixed those things. Thank you =]

 

[Colonel M]

Also just mention Max HP being nice for Sticky Web since you tank hits better.

QC Approved 2/3

 

[trc]

Thank you. I should get this written up pretty quickly.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

After testing Timid versus Modest quite a bit, I am still trying to decide which nature is better.What have you found? You should at least mention that Timid also allows you to outspeed a lot of the slower but still deadly attackers that try to max speed like Jolly Breloom which is really important because they rarely switch out and your ice beam can take them out easily. Base 81 speed is actually a surprisingly good number in this metagame and it will let you get the jump on defensive Gliscor and Landorus-T and even neutral speed nature Lucario. It basically boils down to wanting to guarantee 2hkos on Pokemon like Mega Venusaur or having the necessary speed insurance for Mamoswine, Breloom, Dragonite, non-Mega Gardevoir, Adamant Excadrill, Togekiss, Goodra (not that anyone runs max speed with him) etc. It all boils down to wanting to check slow offensive or defensive threats more. If you think you can guarantee the Competitive boost or a Sticky Web against the opposition, then I think Timid is the way to go. Still, these are only a couple of the Pokemon that appear in OU...

 

[trc]

After testing Timid versus Modest quite a bit, I am still trying to decide which nature is better.What have you found? You should at least mention that Timid also allows you to outspeed a lot of the slower but still deadly attackers that try to max speed like Jolly Breloom which is really important because they rarely switch out and your ice beam can take them out easily. Base 81 speed is actually a surprisingly good number in this metagame and it will let you get the jump on defensive Gliscor and Landorus-T and even neutral speed nature Lucario. It basically boils down to wanting to guarantee 2hkos on Pokemon like Mega Venusaur or having the necessary speed insurance for Mamoswine, Breloom, Dragonite, non-Mega Gardevoir, Adamant Excadrill, Togekiss, Goodra (not that anyone runs max speed with him) etc. It all boils down to wanting to check slow offensive or defensive threats more. If you think you can guarantee the Competitive boost or a Sticky Web against the opposition, then I think Timid is the way to go. Still, these are only a couple of the Pokemon that appear in OU...

The thing is, Breloom, the most relevant target, is uncommon, Togekiss and Goodra don't commonly run Speed, you beat Dragonite, Mamoswine, and Excadrill anyway, and the ability to 2HKO Mega Venusaur is too good to pass up.

 

[chuie]

Seeing as Milotic is the only pure Water type with Recover, it will always be viable as a bulky option, however limited. Suicune is bait with Rest, and Slowking/bro have defensive holes in Ghost/Dark/Bug types.

There is also one boon to that good special defence- tanking volt turn. Unless the opponent is paired with a Grass type, this usually gives Milotic enough breathing space to heal up and Scald or Toxic something.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

The thing is, Breloom, the most relevant target, is uncommon, Togekiss and Goodra don't commonly run Speed, you beat Dragonite, Mamoswine, and Excadrill anyway, and the ability to 2HKO Mega Venusaur is too good to pass up.

I see your point. The problem is that Milotic's mediocre physical bulk means that after tanking a hit from one of the above physical attackers + LO recoil, it will very rarely have much HP left... Modest makes sense for both faster and bulkier targets and differentiates Milotic from something like Starmie a bit.

Also, I think it's worth mentioning that after a competitive boost and with life orb, Modest Milotic's Hydro Pump actually 2HKOs physically defensive Ferrothorn as well as physically defensive Mega Venusaur. +2 Competitive Boost + Modest + Life Orb means that the only Pokemon that can really avoid being 2hkoed are Blissey (who you have a 6% chance of killing without any hazards) and Chansey who is only 3hkoed, but that's no small feat. Still, I recommend a Wish + Heal Bell/Aromatherapy user on the team alongside a rapid spinner because Milotic will lose health fast.

 

[trc]

Okie this is all written up and ready for the final check n_n