Has anyone said anything about Furfrou? I think with Fur Coat being a Huge Power but for defence, it makes for a good wall. A big thing stopping it being amazinb is it's lack of recovery, and it not being able to do much. I see it as a Goodra, but with very good physical bulk instead for special bulk. I'd say C+ for Furfrou, if it got recover then that would be a different story, but it doesn't.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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The point using Staraptor is to pair it with Talonflame to wear down each other's counters that they share. You mention its SR weakness and getting worn down by recoil, but Talonflame has those very same flaws. Sure Talonflame has priority brave bird, but Staraptor more than makes up for that for having a much higher attack stat and access to Reckless to boost its STABs even further. Not to mention it also has access to Close Combat for coverage and Final Gambit to cripple a counter such as Skarmory. It may go down fast, but not without leaving a serious dent in the opponents team. B / B+ is perfectly fitting for what it does.
Goodra has way more an offensive presence than Furfrou and has resists unlike it. Sure its defense is nice, but it can't do jack shit to the majority of the tier and is very prone to getting worn down. I would not rank it at all.
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Yeah, Furfrou is a pretty bad Pokemon. While it can take hits like a boss, it can't really do anything back and is a sitting duck a lot of the time. It is fairly weak, and has a tiny movepool. It has no recovery aside from Rest, and unlike other walls, it cannot support its team well. It cannot set up hazards, pass Wishes, or be a cleric like most walls can. It may have some merit when NU comes out, but here in OU, there is no place for Furfrou and I think it should remain unranked.
I have a few problems with this.
1. Who's going to leave Zard X in after a speed drop, anyway? Also, there's a thing called "prediction", just so you know.
2. Goodra does NOT counter or check Azumarill, as Taehl has proved.
Please check your facts or gain knowledge of the game before posting.
About sticky web:
Everything: balloon.
S-Rank: All are immune with the exception of Aegislash, who doesn't really care unless it's using an Autotomize set, and base form Pinsir
A+ Rank: Bisharp loves it; Lando's, Talonflame and Rotom-W are immune. Deo-D doesn't care especially since it's usually a lead. Okay it kind of hurts Deo-S but he's still pretty fast at -1. Heatran doesn't care unless it's Scarf which is a super rare set. KyuB doesn't care too much, especially sub sets, Venusaur doesn't care, Mega Tyranitar is sort of hurt since he'd have to dance twice and might not get the chance to. So in here it's mostly Garchomp and Manaphy
A: Dnite, Gyarados, Gengar, Lati@s, Mandibuzz are immune. Azumarill, Mawile, Scizor, and T-Tar don't really care, Excadrill doesn't care to an extent, so from A rank we just have Greninja and Keldeo
A-: Just Terrakion
B+: Nothing here really cares with the exception of Gardevoir and Medicham who have an underwhelming speed tier anyway.
B: Getting kind of fringe, but in here it's really just Scarf Diggersby, Mega Man, Victini, and offensive Mew (is that a thing.) Volcarona and Scolipede (if non-lead) are all hurt to an extent, but volc boosts it away and pede's ability negates it so they both lose a turn at best.
So like less than an eighth of the meta at best really cares about web, so much stuff it outright immune, has priority or doesn't mind going second. In my opinion it just doesn't justify using a mon that has almost nothing over other electric types (who are all mostly bulkier, faster, hit harder, and bring stuff like Intimidate (mega man), a better typing and defensive capabilities (Zapdos, rotom-w,) and prankster t-wave (thundurus).) Raikou is honestly better than Galvantula. And this isn't all theorymonning, I used sticky web a bunch at the beginning of XY and it sucked. Galvantula should not rise, honestly it could drop.
Also, stuff I'd like to see:
Chesnaught for B or B+. I just want to say it again. It's a really good defensive mon. Everything about it has been said, as it has with Staraptor who should also go to B or B+.
Lucario to B or B+. It got totally eclipsed by its mega form but it's a very solid attacker in its base form, especially with Extreme Speed.
Jellicent to C or C-. It walls nothing notable except Keldeo, which it does a wonderful job of (especially since none use HP Ghost anymore) but it pretty much does only does that. It can also wall Scizor w/o Knock Off (which isn't that much of a feat, seriously like every other tank/wall can do it,) Heatran (like every single bulky water) and some other stuff mentioned here. Now if you want an absolute full-stop to Keldeo this thing is absolutely the spooky jelly-thing you want so it does warrant a ranking (Lati@s does a great job too but Jellicent can at least burn pursuit trappers that try to switch in.)
Goodra to stay in B-. Specifically because of its Modest Specs/LO set. I really did dislike this thing initially but this set is actually pretty good. Defensively it's mostly outclassed by Latias but unlike Latias, Tyraniar can't switch in to Goodra because of Focus Blast; a set of Draco/Focus/Flamethrower/Thunderbolt has few safe switch ins, mostly just Chansey, Clefable and Sylveon. Goodra can counter every special attacker in S and A rank with the exception of KyuB, Wacan/LO Manaphy, Greninja, Keldeo, Lati@s, and Clefable. It's also a good answer to Y-zard, the only others being Chansey (who has next to no offensive presence) and Lati@s (who do really poorly against a T-Tar/Y-zard core, which is super good and I've been seeing a lot of it.) I think it's underrated, it's not spectacular since it's easy to wear down and check but it has a place on bulky offense teams.
Tangrowth to B- or B. It's so good. Its physical bulk is unreal and Assault Vest patches up its awful special defense. It's a great user of Assault Vest; nothing appreciates losing its item, it can recover health with Giga Drain, and Regenerator is one of the best possible abilities for a defensive mon. And without Assault Vest, it has Sleep Power and Leech Seed. It's super hard to kill without SE moves and it's relatively hard to switch into for a defensive mon.
Both Gourgeist sizes to B-. Small is a really good sub-seeder, XL is bulkier and has an easier time switching in to attacks. Will-o-wisp and Leech Seed are two of the best moves a physical tank can ask for. It's typing means it has no trouble spin blocking Excadrill w/o Shadow Claw, and most things that depend on QuakeEdge are probably countered by Gourgeist XL and its raw bulk. Frisk is a good ability, scouting items can be useful, e.g. seeing if something is scarfed, banded or just bluffing. It can also do miscellaneous stuff like Trick Scarf, Trick Room, Destiny Bond, and stall with Phantom Force. As a defensive grass type it's mostly outclassed by Chesnaught, Venusaur and Ferrothorn, but over them it has ghost-typing for spin blocking and Will-o-Wisp.
Sableye to C+/C. Sableye has, for lack of a better term, artificial bulk. In order to counter nearly any strong physical attacker it absolutely has to use Will-o-Wisp after it switches in, meaning it's a free switch in for fire types (especially Heatran,) offensive status absorbers, and strong special attackers that don't mind burn too much. STAB Foul Play is great for a defensive mon but I'd really much prefer Mandibuzz, who has crazy bulk, defog, and a better typing (Dark/Ghost has only one uncommon weakness but almost no exploitable resistances.) Prankster Taunt/T-wave is done better by Thundurus. Its ability to check and counter many physical attackers with priority wisp is really great, but it's super easy to play around and overall I've found it to be a very disappointing defensive mon.
Kingdra to B. Swift Swim+Drizzle was banned for very good reason last gen, but now it's not. Offensive rain teams is the best thing no one is running, especially since no one really prepares for them anymore. This SPL replay is a really good example of what I'm talking about (Kabutops did most of the work but Kingdra is on par with it as a Swift Swimmer, though it's a bit easier to wall.) The Drizzle nerf hurt but ~7 turns is all Swift Swimmers really need to do major damage, and Kingdra is one of the best (along with Ludicolo and especially Kabutops, who do not deserve C- and C, but I can't talk about them right now.)
Entei to B. CB Sacred Fire is super hard to switch in to, the risk of burn is too high for most physical attackers and it just hits hard in general. Entei also has just enough coverage to deal with most things can actually can, and Extreme Speed is always a very valuable move.
That's all I've got for now, B- and C+ seem super inflated but I don't know where most of them should really go.
Everything: balloon.
S-Rank: All are immune with the exception of Aegislash, who doesn't really care unless it's using an Autotomize set, and base form Pinsir
A+ Rank: Bisharp loves it; Lando's, Talonflame and Rotom-W are immune. Deo-D doesn't care especially since it's usually a lead. Okay it kind of hurts Deo-S but he's still pretty fast at -1. Heatran doesn't care unless it's Scarf which is a super rare set. KyuB doesn't care too much, especially sub sets, Venusaur doesn't care, Mega Tyranitar is sort of hurt since he'd have to dance twice and might not get the chance to. So in here it's mostly Garchomp and Manaphy
A: Dnite, Gyarados, Gengar, Lati@s, Mandibuzz are immune. Azumarill, Mawile, Scizor, and T-Tar don't really care, Excadrill doesn't care to an extent, so from A rank we just have Greninja and Keldeo
A-: Just Terrakion
B+: Nothing here really cares with the exception of Gardevoir and Medicham who have an underwhelming speed tier anyway.
B: Getting kind of fringe, but in here it's really just Scarf Diggersby, Mega Man, Victini, and offensive Mew (is that a thing.) Volcarona and Scolipede (if non-lead) are all hurt to an extent, but volc boosts it away and pede's ability negates it so they both lose a turn at best.
So like less than an eighth of the meta at best really cares about web, so much stuff it outright immune, has priority or doesn't mind going second. In my opinion it just doesn't justify using a mon that has almost nothing over other electric types (who are all mostly bulkier, faster, hit harder, and bring stuff like Intimidate (mega man), a better typing and defensive capabilities (Zapdos, rotom-w,) and prankster t-wave (thundurus).) Raikou is honestly better than Galvantula. And this isn't all theorymonning, I used sticky web a bunch at the beginning of XY and it sucked. Galvantula should not rise, honestly it could drop.
Also, stuff I'd like to see:
Chesnaught for B or B+. I just want to say it again. It's a really good defensive mon. Everything about it has been said, as it has with Staraptor who should also go to B or B+.
Lucario to B or B+. It got totally eclipsed by its mega form but it's a very solid attacker in its base form, especially with Extreme Speed.
Jellicent to C or C-. It walls nothing notable except Keldeo, which it does a wonderful job of (especially since none use HP Ghost anymore) but it pretty much does only does that. It can also wall Scizor w/o Knock Off (which isn't that much of a feat, seriously like every other tank/wall can do it,) Heatran (like every single bulky water) and some other stuff mentioned here. Now if you want an absolute full-stop to Keldeo this thing is absolutely the spooky jelly-thing you want so it does warrant a ranking (Lati@s does a great job too but Jellicent can at least burn pursuit trappers that try to switch in.)
Goodra to stay in B-. Specifically because of its Modest Specs/LO set. I really did dislike this thing initially but this set is actually pretty good. Defensively it's mostly outclassed by Latias but unlike Latias, Tyraniar can't switch in to Goodra because of Focus Blast; a set of Draco/Focus/Flamethrower/Thunderbolt has few safe switch ins, mostly just Chansey, Clefable and Sylveon. Goodra can counter every special attacker in S and A rank with the exception of KyuB, Wacan/LO Manaphy, Greninja, Keldeo, Lati@s, and Clefable. It's also a good answer to Y-zard, the only others being Chansey (who has next to no offensive presence) and Lati@s (who do really poorly against a T-Tar/Y-zard core, which is super good and I've been seeing a lot of it.) I think it's underrated, it's not spectacular since it's easy to wear down and check but it has a place on bulky offense teams.
Tangrowth to B- or B. It's so good. Its physical bulk is unreal and Assault Vest patches up its awful special defense. It's a great user of Assault Vest; nothing appreciates losing its item, it can recover health with Giga Drain, and Regenerator is one of the best possible abilities for a defensive mon. And without Assault Vest, it has Sleep Power and Leech Seed. It's super hard to kill without SE moves and it's relatively hard to switch into for a defensive mon.
Both Gourgeist sizes to B-. Small is a really good sub-seeder, XL is bulkier and has an easier time switching in to attacks. Will-o-wisp and Leech Seed are two of the best moves a physical tank can ask for. It's typing means it has no trouble spin blocking Excadrill w/o Shadow Claw, and most things that depend on QuakeEdge are probably countered by Gourgeist XL and its raw bulk. Frisk is a good ability, scouting items can be useful, e.g. seeing if something is scarfed, banded or just bluffing. It can also do miscellaneous stuff like Trick Scarf, Trick Room, Destiny Bond, and stall with Phantom Force. As a defensive grass type it's mostly outclassed by Chesnaught, Venusaur and Ferrothorn, but over them it has ghost-typing for spin blocking and Will-o-Wisp.
Sableye to C+/C. Sableye has, for lack of a better term, artificial bulk. In order to counter nearly any strong physical attacker it absolutely has to use Will-o-Wisp after it switches in, meaning it's a free switch in for fire types (especially Heatran,) offensive status absorbers, and strong special attackers that don't mind burn too much. STAB Foul Play is great for a defensive mon but I'd really much prefer Mandibuzz, who has crazy bulk, defog, and a better typing (Dark/Ghost has only one uncommon weakness but almost no exploitable resistances.) Prankster Taunt/T-wave is done better by Thundurus. Its ability to check and counter many physical attackers with priority wisp is really great, but it's super easy to play around and overall I've found it to be a very disappointing defensive mon.
Kingdra to B. Swift Swim+Drizzle was banned for very good reason last gen, but now it's not. Offensive rain teams is the best thing no one is running, especially since no one really prepares for them anymore. This SPL replay is a really good example of what I'm talking about (Kabutops did most of the work but Kingdra is on par with it as a Swift Swimmer, though it's a bit easier to wall.) The Drizzle nerf hurt but ~7 turns is all Swift Swimmers really need to do major damage, and Kingdra is one of the best (along with Ludicolo and especially Kabutops, who do not deserve C- and C, but I can't talk about them right now.)
Entei to B. CB Sacred Fire is super hard to switch in to, the risk of burn is too high for most physical attackers and it just hits hard in general. Entei also has just enough coverage to deal with most things can actually can, and Extreme Speed is always a very valuable move.
That's all I've got for now, B- and C+ seem super inflated but I don't know where most of them should really go.
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Yeah, I agree with a lot of these nominations, but the one I agree with the most is Kingdra for B. This is such an underrated threat, and while it relies heavily on Rain support, is's very hard for most offensive (And even some stall) teams to deal with. Specs is one of the more deadly, as it can clean very easily late-game with powerful Hydro Pumps/Dragon Pulse's. Life Orb is also very powerful, as it allows Kingdra to switch moves, making it even harder to switch into. Of course, this thing would be B due to it's extreme reliance on Rain for any viability. However, it's an amazing Pokemon when it's raining, warranting B in my eyes.
I definitely support Entei for B. It's an amazing wallbreaker, a very effective check against most defensive fairies in OU including Togekiss (although paraflinch blows), Clefable and Sylveon. It's Sacred Fire has so much utility and power that it's incredible, and lots of strong sweepers can benefit a burned Lando-T, Gliscor, Tyranitar, or Hippowdon, since they like to switch into Entei the most.
It's got ExtremeSpeed, which, with Band, makes it a pretty strong revenge-killer. Stone Edge gives it some good coverage, and Bulldoze OHKOs 252 HP Heatran, assuming Band.
It's got ExtremeSpeed, which, with Band, makes it a pretty strong revenge-killer. Stone Edge gives it some good coverage, and Bulldoze OHKOs 252 HP Heatran, assuming Band.
Gothitelle for C+ (it's unranked and definitely OU viable).
It has a solid niche as the best and most versatile shadow tagger. If played correctly it can dismantle or at least cripple defensive cores and make way for your sweeper. The set you run can be tailored for what you need removed. If you want quagsire gone you can run energy ball, if you want skarmory gone you can run tbolt etc. Don't underestimate it, because it is actually very deadly on the right team.
It has a solid niche as the best and most versatile shadow tagger. If played correctly it can dismantle or at least cripple defensive cores and make way for your sweeper. The set you run can be tailored for what you need removed. If you want quagsire gone you can run energy ball, if you want skarmory gone you can run tbolt etc. Don't underestimate it, because it is actually very deadly on the right team.
I agree that it's the best trapper, however I think it should be B-, as I've said before. C+ would be okay, but it doesn't show that it's the best trapper, as the other trappers are C+.
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While there are several pokemon that don't care about it, or aren't affected by it, one thing that I've actually been messing around with is Gravity+Sticky Web. Gravity doesn't get stellar distribution, but some notable users are clefable, Landorus (both forms), starmie, and chansey. Gravity combined with sticky web makes EVERYTHING effected by sticky web, flying or not, and turns your landorus into a monster. There aren't too many pokemon that like an earth power/earthquake if they're grounded and don't mind the coverage moves that come with it. Gravity also increases the accuracy of all moves 1.66 times. This means moves like focus blast always hit. Zap cannon has a disgusting 83 accuracy. Once you put gravity into the picture (which is a really underrated move) sticky web becomes a lot more threatening. Your Sticky Web lead, smeargle, could also run gravity if it somehow survives. It's a pretty cool strategy.
Now, I feel like the pokemon that are affected by sticky web are a lot more than what you mentioned.
S: Char-x cares after mega evolution, and with gravity everybody cares except for aegislash
A+: Bisharp likes, Garchomp and Manaphy hate it, Kyu-B actually hates it because it can't get a sub on Rotom-W before it gets burned, Tyranitar-Mega hates it, Heatran and Mega Venusaur don't really care, and with gravity up Landorus (-T) and Talonflame hate it.
A: Excadrill, Gyarados-M, Keldeo, Greninja, and BD azumarill hate it, and with gravity up Lati@s, Gengar, and Dragonite hate it too. Nothing else really cares.
A-: Terrakion hates it, Mamoswine doesn't like it but has ice shard and some bulk, Gyarados hates it with gravity up.
B+: Medicham-M and Gardevoir-M hate it, and with gravity up Zapdos doesn't like it too much.
The list is, for the most part, sorta unchanged, but with gravity up a LOT more pokemon don't like it.
Another thing about gravity is that gravity teams can function even without it! It doesn't need to be up, like TR, for the team to perform well! I feel that, with gravity, sticky web is really annoying to face, and shouldn't be brushed aside.
And with gravity in the picture as well, the abusers are endless. To name a few: Manaphy, Lando-i, Mega Heracross, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Medicham, Porygon-Z (also learns gravity), Landorus-T, Mega Pinsir, Dragonite, Kyurem-B, and so many more. Powerful Wallbreakers held back by their speed not only can begin to outpace many pokemon but can even afford to run risky moves like Thunder, Blizzard, and Focus Blast knowing that they will still always hit!
Galvantula should go down, I agree, but Smeargle is imo the real Sticky Web setter here. And Sticky Web itself is still a really good move.
TL;DR Sticky Web by itself IS sorta underwhelming, but when you factor in Gravity it's fantastic. Galvantula sucks, use Smeargle to set it.
Not exactly ironic so much as true
Ironic? Yes. But wrong? No. Also, Mega Zam is C+, not C-.
Max Carvalho
Que os jogos comecem
Focus sash>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (x100) mega alakazam
So you'd have to maintain sticky web AND gravity? Sounds like quite the chore.
Max Carvalho
Que os jogos comecem
I will discuss for miltank. Lets see: FANTASTIC speed for a wall, average hp, good defense, lackluster special def, usable attack stat. All abilites are very useful; thick fat for defensive/support ones and scrappy/sap sipper for offensive ones. Well it has acess to heal bell, milk drink, stealth rock and other good support mooves. A defensive set with those three mooves and body slam is very effective; and, aside from likes of garchomp and deoxys-s, is one of the fastest users of stealth rock, which is really worth to note. Yeah it is quite viable in ou tier with you use it right. You can use an offensive set, but you have much better choices for that. Miltank niche in ou should be access to stealth rock, mild drink and heal bell, so she is a valuable support option for your team. C+ for miltank.
I'm really tempted to copy and paste my post from before but then I'll just sound like a whiny little bitch, so I'll just put it this way:
Mega Alakazam is high risk, high reward compared to its normal forme. Missing its focus sash really hurts it, but the sheer number of abilities it can take advantage of from the popular A and B rank Pokemon, plus the fact that it can afford to run Modest and completely outclass its Life Orb set, gives it a niche over its regular forme. As others have pointed out it doesn't hit quite hard enough to establish itself as a top tier threat, but people really do underplay how effective it is. I think it should be B- with its regular forme, but it appears I'm still in the minority with that opinion.
Does Miltank even have an analysis?
I'd really rather we not see everything that could possibly be used in OU be ranked. C/C+ is really inflated right now, B- too. We should be removing things, not adding things. (Victory Road completely wiped their own rankings, that may be a decent idea here; or at least do a good amount of pruning in the lower ranks.)
Almost every set Miltank can run can also be ran by Chansey, who has only marginally lower physical bulk but far, far better special bulk. It was NU last gen, didn't get anything this gen and can't fill any niche not occupied by some other, better mon. Don't rank it.
No, it doesn't.
As of right now, I see no reason to see this thing ranked. It's been used a total of 0 times in SPL, and faces serious competition from Pokemon such as Chansey and Porygon2 for a normal-type tank. (Chansey/Blissey are both normal-types who have access to Stealth Rocks, Heal Bell, and Soft-Boiled, and Porygon2 has much better overall physical bulk while also putting on more offensive pressure) Here are some calcs to prove my point:
Porygon2: 252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 67-81 (17.9 - 21.6%) -- possible 5HKO
Miltank:252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Miltank: 93-109 (23.6 - 27.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Chansey: 252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 174-205 (24.7 - 29.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO (Basically a guaranteed 4HKO, but Chansey still only take 2% more on average while also retaining much better special bulk.)
Overall, unless I see some serious arguments of why I'd ever use this things as well as replays of it working on the high end of the ladder, I really don't see why this thing deserves a ranking what so ever. My vote goes to no ranking.
Yeah, you'd really only use Thick Fat on this thing since Chansey/Blissey have Natural Cure. Thick Fat isn't really saving this thing, either, as most Fire- and Ice-type Pokemon are either handled equality as well/better by the blobs, or Miltank is taken out by one of the opponent's coverage moves. Overall, lets please keep this thing unranked. :)
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