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I won't allow Ubers unless I think they're not broken. If you can convince me that an Uber Pokemon should be unbanned, then I will do that. But, for the moment, I can't think of anything worth unbanning. Mega-Lucario is a great setup sweeper who can use its special defense to find setup opportunities, Genesect is a very bulky special sweeper, and Kangaskhan is just as powerful, if not more.
Okay. Looking at the Ubers list, Shaymin-S is probably the only one that should go unbanned because it can't do Serene Grace Air Slash very effectively at all with 64 base speed. It's very specially bulky now with 150 special defense, but can only really use that effectively as a cleric, SubSeeder, or as an Assault Vest user. Serene Grace Seed Flare is the only thing I can see being potentially broken.
It can't really abuse flinchax that easily anymore and he doesn't have access to any stat boosting moves (lmao swords dance). It gets Tailwind though... but 4 turns isn't really enough.
The other ubers shouldn't really drop except maybe for Darkrai with 140/90/90 bulk, but a bad 63 speed).
It can't really abuse flinchax that easily anymore and he doesn't have access to any stat boosting moves (lmao swords dance). It gets Tailwind though... but 4 turns isn't really enough.
The other ubers shouldn't really drop except maybe for Darkrai with 140/90/90 bulk, but a bad 63 speed).
I agree except Darkrai's Sp. Atk gets dropped instead of its Speed, so it should stay with the others. Oh and Shaymin-S gets the Sp. Def boost because it's later in the HP/Atk/Def/etc. sequence.
I agree except Darkrai's Sp. Atk gets dropped instead of its Speed, so it should stay with the others. Oh and Shaymin-S gets the Sp. Def boost because it's later in the HP/Atk/Def/etc. sequence.
But then again, Darkrai's stats will be 140/90/90/68/90/125. I don't think that really screams "op motherfucker ban pls", other than the ridiculously fast sleep.
Okay, I'm allowing Shaymin-S and Darkrai. The latter is still a pretty great status spreader, but if we're allowing the likes of Nidoqueen and Garchomp we might as well give the benefit of the doubt to Darkrai
No. It has 90 defense and 95 speed. 90<95. Anyway, the special defense would be boosted. But yeah, it would be a special wall/tank. Some calcs(with alter stats):
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 152 SpD Kyurem: 204-240 (44.9 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
100+ SpA Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Mega Lucario: 286-338 (101.7 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yeah, that's a 320 BP move from 140 Special Attack... That's also super-effective. This is going to be like a blissey... That can attack. Scary.
Yeah, I just thought of Kyu-W. Chances are it'll be even worse than Kyu-B due to a weaker physical movepool and the fact that physical threats are rarer then special ones.
What do you all think of Reshiram? It has that insane speed going for it, but no good STAB outside Outrage. Seems like a faster but weaker version of standard Kyu-B with a better defensive typing.
Yeah, I just thought of Kyu-W. Chances are it'll be even worse than Kyu-B due to a weaker physical movepool and the fact that physical threats are rarer then special ones.
What do you all think of Reshiram? It has that insane speed going for it, but no good STAB outside Outrage. Seems like a faster but weaker version of standard Kyu-B with a better defensive typing.
Not sure about Reshiram. It does have the option to go mixed for perfect neutral coverage (Outrage + Fire Move) off 180 speed. On the flip side, everything seems to be bulkier now.
Darkrai has more SpA than Speed (135 vs 125), so it actually gets to keep it's 125 speed, but gets a 68 SpA, so it has to use it's base 90 attack. Still, 140/90/90/ bulk is good, and that speed and Dark Void is also really good. Might need more testing.
Venomoth gains a much needed defense boost, making it much easier to pass a quiver dance to nidoqueen so you can wreck stuff. Can anything even stop nidoqueen at +1? +2?+3?
Outside of Outrage, there's also the fact it can use bulk up better now. Ogre's SpA is not that different from Politoed's 90 back in Gen V, then again it can just use physical moves.
(also this looked like it got posted twice before I deleted it, reposting this now since both my posts got deleted. Probably a glitch.)
Nidoqueen is very slow in this metagame. That said it's not very easy to switch in to and force out. Ogre would be great. Uxie is the best bet I can see. Outspeeds and OHKOs with 75/130 defenses and an immunity to ground. Megasaur maybe? Suicune?
I don't think Kyogre should be allowed. Drizzle is still great, and it has a decent physical movepool with Waterfall, Earthquake, Double Edge and Iron Head. Palkia is bulky beyond belief, no way is that thing not broken. Legendaries in general have very well-rounded stats, so one statis really going to stick out, often Speed. The only Ubers that should be allowed are the unbalanced ones stat-wise, hence Darkrai and Shaymin-S. Kyu-W is mainly because of the terrible physical movepool.
Nidoqueen is very slow in this metagame. That said it's not very easy to switch in to and force out. Ogre would be great. Uxie is the best bet I can see. Outspeeds and OHKOs with 75/130 defenses and an immunity to ground. Megasaur maybe? Suicune?
Uxie looks like a decent special tank / wallbreaker, but can't take physical hits at all. Megasaur I'm not too sure about, since it has nothing for physical defense and gains speed it doesn't need. Could be a very good subseeder. Suicune isn't very good, since it needs that physical defense.
I'm just going to collate a list of stats for Ubers (aside from Kyuwhite, Darkrai and Skymin)
Arceus 60 HP / 120 Atk / 120 Def / 120 SpA / 120 SpD / 240 Spe
Blaziken / Mega Blaziken
Normal Blaziken: 80 HP / 60 Atk / 70 Def / 110 SpA / 140 SpD / 80 Spe
Mega Blaziken: 80 HP / 80 Atk / 80 Def / 130 SpA / 160 SpD / 100 Spe
Deoxys 50 HP / 75 Atk / 50 Def / 150 SpA / 100 SpD / 150 Spe
Deoxys-A 50 HP / 90 Atk / 20 Def / 180 SpA / 40 SpD / 150 Spe
Dialga 100 HP / 120 Atk / 120 Def / 75 SpA / 100 SpD / 180 Spe
Genesect 142 HP / 60 Atk / 95 Def / 120 SpA / 95 SpD / 99 Spe
Giratina 75 HP / 100 Atk / 120 Def / 100 SpA / 120 SpD / 180 Spe
Giratina-O 75 HP / 120 Atk / 100 Def / 120 SpA / 100 SpD / 180 Spe
Groudon 100 HP / 75 Atk / 140 Def / 100 SpA / 90 SpD / 180 Spe
Ho-oh 106 HP / 130 Atk / 90 Def / 110 SpA / 77 SpD / 180 Spe
Kyogre 100 HP / 100 Atk / 90 Def / 75 SpA / 140 SpD / 180 Spe
Lugia 106 HP / 90 Atk / 130 Def / 180 SpA / 77 SpD / 110 Spe
Mega Kangaskhan 105 HP / 63 Atk / 100 Def / 120 SpA / 100 SpD / 100 Spe
Mega Gengar 120 HP / 65 Atk / 80 Def / 85 SpA / 95 SpD / 130 Spe
Mewtwo / Mega Mewtwo X / Mega Mewtwo Y
Normal Mewtwo: 106 HP / 110 Atk / 90 Def / 77 SpA / 180 SpD / 130 Spe
MM2X: 106 HP / 95 Atk / 100 Def / 154 SpA / 200 SpD / 130 Spe
MM2Y: 106 HP / 150 Atk / 140 Def / 97 SpA / 120 SpD / 140 Spe
Palkia 180 HP / 120 Atk / 100 Def / 75 SpA / 120 SpD / 100 Spe
Rayquaza 105 HP / 75 Atk / 90 Def / 150 SpA / 180 SpD / 95 Spe
Reshiram 100 HP / 120 Atk / 100 Def / 75 SpA / 120 SpD / 180 Spe
Xerneas / Yveltal 126 HP / 66 Atk / 190 Def / 131 SpA / 98 SpD / 99 Spe
Zekrom 100 HP / 75 Atk / 120 Def / 120 SpA / 100 SpD / 180 Spe
basically tldr (things that can come down):
Blaziken: On the fence about this: firstly, it's speed fucking boost, but his HJK/Flare Blitz is nerfed (120 Atk is a beast, 60 Atk is pussy) and he can't boost his SpA as quickly as his Atk. I think the regular form can come down, but Blazikenite should be banned instead: 80 Atk is much more solid than 60 Atk for sweeping (and we have loltalonflame in standard).
Genesect: Eh, on the fence about this. His physical sets lose a lot of power so he's a lot more predictable now: in exchange, he gets some stupidly solid bulk.
MGengar: Actually, I'm curious about this one. It's Shadow Tag, but his offenses are nerfed drastically. In exchange he gets added bulk for Perish Trapping. Y/N?
Mewtwo: Another one I'm interested in. Yeah, fucking Mewtwo. I'm serious. He's kind of like Snorlax now, with actual speed. He lost a lot of his SpAtk and didn't get anything else in the process. His best offense is now 110 Atk, but his physical movepool is ass. This one might actually not be broken. Might. On the other hand, fuck the Mewtwonites though: MM2X has excellent SpA and Speed and now near unbreakable special bulk with good physical bulk as well. MM2Y has a scary combination of Attack and Speed while having his biggest problem, Defense, patched up. I think MM2Y might not be broken too, but I'm really leaning on the broken side though.
Reshiram/Zekrom: Their best moves got crippled and they don't have extremely stellar movepools in the other section of their specialisation (or in short Reshiram has an ass physical movepool and vice-versa for Zekrom). 180 Speed might push it over the edge, but yeah they are basically the Kyurems with speed over bulk. Thoughts?
Blaziken: On the fence about this: firstly, it's speed fucking boost, but his HJK/Flare Blitz is nerfed (120 Atk is a beast, 60 Atk is pussy) and he can't boost his SpA as quickly as his Atk. I think the regular form can come down, but Blazikenite should be banned instead: 80 Atk is much more solid than 60 Atk for sweeping (and we have loltalonflame in standard).
Speed Boost + Baton Pass is amazing, but Blaziken can't really hit for much damage, and his physical movepool is absolutely barren, so it just seems like a better Scoliopede to me. But that physical bulk will really give it some setup opportunities. We might bring it down to test it.
MGengar: Actually, I'm curious about this one. It's Shadow Tag, but his offenses are nerfed drastically. In exchange he gets added bulk for Perish Trapping. Y/N?
Megagar is actually far, FAR more broken than in standard. What got it banned was its PerishTrap set, not its offensive set. Now, it has way better defenses to exploit its best set.
Mewtwo: Another one I'm interested in. Yeah, fucking Mewtwo. I'm serious. He's kind of like Snorlax now, with actual speed. He lost a lot of his SpAtk and didn't get anything else in the process. His best offense is now 110 Atk, but his physical movepool is ass. This one might actually not be broken. Might. On the other hand, fuck the Mewtwonites though: MM2X has excellent SpA and Speed and now near unbreakable special bulk with good physical bulk as well. MM2Y has a scary combination of Attack and Speed while having his biggest problem, Defense, patched up. I think MM2Y might not be broken too, but I'm really leaning on the broken side though.
Mewtwo without its Mega Stones is still pretty OP, since its WoW support set which was already viable in Ubers is ridiculously good now. It's like a far, far, far better Sableye with speed instead of Prankster. Oh, and Mewtwonites are obviously out of the question.
Reshiram/Zekrom: Their best moves got crippled and they don't have extremely stellar movepools in the other section of their specialisation (or in short Reshiram has an ass physical movepool and vice-versa for Zekrom). 180 Speed might push it over the edge, but yeah they are basically the Kyurems with speed over bulk. Thoughts?
Zekrom is still broken IMO since it has a good enough special movepool. I think I'll unban Reshiram though, since it has no good physical STAB besides Outrage. I don't see it any more broken than Victini.
Megagar is actually far, FAR more broken than in standard. What got it banned was its PerishTrap set, not its offensive set. Now, it has way better defenses to exploit its best set.
I won't exactly say it was because of PerishTrap, but it was more of because you don't know whether it was PerishTrap or just good ol' 4 attacks kill em' all. The former is very good at removing special walls, but usually can't do it more than once unless it's like chansey, the latter pretty much rks every offensive threat without a scarf. And of course, Chansey can just come in on 4atks, while powerful attackers can usually pile enough pressure on Gengar to limit his Perish Trapping.
I still think it's not really broken, but having better defense to actually abuse PerishTrap makes it seem pretty iffy. It's more of "fuk its more predictable now" but also at the same time it's twice as hard to kill.
Mewtwo without its Mega Stones is still pretty OP, since its WoW support set which was already viable in Ubers is ridiculously good now. It's like a far, far, far better Sableye with speed instead of Prankster. Oh, and Mewtwonites are obviously out of the question.
IDK really about Mewtwo (since I haven't played Ubers in forever). Still, the main idea is that Mewtwo doesn't have a crazy 154 SpA to fire off most of his attacks, and is instead stuck with 110 Atk and a ton of rather weak moves (his strongest is STAB ZHB iirc). Still, Recover + Will-o-Wisp might be a bitch to break through. Again, this is mostly because Mewtwo's offensive potential is neutered, and quite heavily too.
Zekrom is still broken IMO since it has a good enough special movepool. I think I'll unban Reshiram though, since it has no good physical STAB besides Outrage. I don't see it any more broken than Victini.
Fair enough on the Zekrom point, I suppose. Reshiram does get Dragon Claw, Zen Headbutt and Stone Edge though. It's not exactly crying for options either, but I think it's still somewhat notable alongside Zekrom.
This thing would single handedly destroy the ubers metagame after a Geomancy. For reference purposes, +4 LO Extremekiller Arceus doesn't OHKO 4 HP/ 0 Def.
Yeah but the thing is Xerneas would probably not even be allowed here, and for good fucking reason. Fuck Geomancy. He has greater physical bulk than vanilla Deoxys-D.
Yeah but the thing is Xerneas would probably not even be allowed here, and for good fucking reason. Fuck Geomancy. He has greater physical bulk than vanilla Deoxys-D.
This tier has been very interesting, though it will probably take a while to code it. While doing some calcs for the new stats though, I thought of something else: What if we buffed the highest stat, nerfed the second highest. A little off topic, but hey kudos to this thread for making me think of it.
Here are some things I got while going through smogon's pokemon list:
Here are some threats and thoughts. I went through highest defense first.
excuse me I think you underestimate your local OM coders
I have just implemented this on Joim's Lab, with a few adjusted bans as requested by Albacore. The unbans are: Reshiram and Blaziken(-Mega). Have fun playing!
Looking at the damage calculator, I realize I completely underestimated how ridiculously broken some of the Pokemon are. Nidoqueen, obviously, but I'm temped to ban all of the base 100 Pixies too. Manaphy doesn't even need to run Speed Evs, and Victini needs to use V-Create twice in order to be outsped by Jolly Latias (who is also broken btw).
We really should try to organize some battles, or at least an inaugural battle, so see how all the theoretically broken stuff plays out on the battlefield.
