Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)

[alexwolf]

Regenerator registers fails as badly as flash fire gourgeist, and roost empoleon.

They sound great on paper but fail to do anything notable besides take a little longer to get beat up.

And that's the problem with our defensive theorymons. We're just suggesting ways to delay the inevitable. Instead we should be giving defensive theorymons the ability to get over their biggest weaknesses.

Empoleon should have gotten lightening rod. That would have cemented him as a special defensive wall that could scare off thundurus with ice beam.

Flash fire gourgeist was a hopeless case as it needs more buffs to outclass trevenant.

Even now, regenerator registers, its just so hopelessly bad. How does regenerator stop top threats like the zards, garchomp, keldeo, and many many others from ripping him apart? It doesn't! It just takes longer.

And like how Red Cat said, of the 24 votes for registeel I think I can safely guess that none of them have come to its defense.

The majority of the posts suggesting sets and stuff post to the tone of "well, I guess it could sort of do this... But it's outclassed, so..."

alexwolf I think it's a good idea for submissions to also include the potential niche it would cover. It's because of topics like this that the thread is losing momentum.

Every Pokemon that makes it to the slate is approved by me to have potential in the OU metagame. Some of those theorymons have a big and some of them have a small niche with their new tools, that's just how this project works, we can't succeed in making everything great in OU.

Also, you are really underestimating most of the theorymons you think were bad. Flash Fire Gourgeist gives to Gourgeist switch-in opportunities against some major threats, such as Mega Charizard Y and Mega Charizard X (especially SpD variants), and start stalling with WoW + Disable + Leech Seed, a combo which is very hard to break as i already described in a previous post of mine. Does this make Gourgeist an S or A rank threat? Of course no, but it makes it a more viable threat with a very unique and clear cut niche.

Same goes for Registeel, which i think is being underestimated as hell.

Roost Empoleon was the only straight up useless theorymon imo, and we coouldn't have known this without first testing it. Most of the theorymons of the last month were great, and having one or two bad ones is just normal and expected.

Regarding Registeel, a simple set of Stealth Rock / Thunder Wave / Toxic / Superpower is able to check a ton of dangerous Pokemon, such as Bisharp, Mega Pinsir, Dragonite, Mega Gyarados, Latios, Latias, Mega Tyranitar, Greninja, Deoxys-S, Choice Band Azumarill, and Mega Gardevoir. Yeah lack of offensive presence is a big downside, but let's not ignore Registeel's incredible bulk, nice defensive typing, ability to act as a resilient SR setter, and of course Regenerator. Even if Registeel is walled, it will at least have set up SR, while never dying and shielding your team from dangerous Pokemon no matter how many times it switches in.

I think it is safe to say that a majority of the people who are interested in this thread have been very disappointed with last two Theorymons which have won. I find it disappointing that of the 24 people who voted for Registeel, very few of them have said why they think it would be good. I think we should discuss the slate of Theorymons before we vote on them so that people (hopefully) know what they are voting for before they vote. Right now, it just seems like this is a popularity contest.

As i already explained, i am picking the theorymons that get slated, so you are going to have to trust me there. If you are dissapointed by the slated theorymons, this most probably happened because of the lack of good suggestions. Sometimes we have a lot of good suggestions, sometimes not. After all, during the voting stage, you can already talk briefly about the slated suggestions.

And as for not being able to create good Pokemon with C+ rank Pokemon or lower, this is just not true. The last days, i have received some excellent suggestions which you will see when i make the slate. I get it that some of the voted theorymons are not that great, and i agree, but this is simply the nature of this project. If you don't like the slated theorymons, make sure to think of some good ones for the next time, of which i assure you there are plenty.

The next slate will be up in a few hours btw.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

Cons

• 75/75 offenses, ergo no presence
• 3 common weaknesses
• ridiculously weak, can't even OHKO M-Pinsir with Rock Slide, Bisharp with Hammer Arm, Gyarados with Thunderbolt
• barren support movepool (T-Wave, Toxic, SR, that's pretty much it)
• still gets ruined by a lot of boosted threats
• competes with several Pokemon for the role of defensive pivot
• needs Seismic toss to do damage
• slow as molasses, naturally
• needs to switch out in order to regain health, meaning it can't wall for extended periods of time -- at some point, it has to fall

I don't disagree with the assessment that Registeel is still terrible, but few things irk me like pro-con lists with redundancies to pad out one side. The three bolded bullet points are essentially saying the same thing.

For actual discussion of Reggie, I guess it now has a niche as a Gravity pivot, and it's always nice to spread status/rocks and heal on your way out, but I doubt I'd ever use it.

 

[LoDart210]

Registeel would be a great support mon for a rain team now that I think about it.

Setting up rain dance with a snap rock gives it some bulk against fire types, time to set up rocks, and defend against grass types.

Not sure how it would do on sand teams though, as it shares common fighting and ground weakness with excadrill and tyranitar.


It could also work as a pivot for set up sweepers because of thunder wave.

Stalls could benefit from its resistance to stealth rocks, and toxic immunity, while it can whittle down opponents via toxic and seismic toss.

Any idea who it could work with?

 

[alexwolf]

Here is our next slate:

• Levitate Chandelure (U-Ralph)
• Heracross with Roost (Chou Toshio) (Mega Heracross doesn't get Roost)
• Poison Heal Snorlax (Isa Simple)
• Drizzle Bronzong (Minnakht)

You have 24 hours to vote. Only vote for one theorymon, and the theorymon with the most votes wins. Don't forget to bold your votes, otherwise they won't count. In the case of a tie, we will vote again for the two theorymon that tied, with another day time limit. Start voting!

And here is the competitive merit behind each theorymon:

Levitate Chandelure: Chandelure is now able to switch into Landorus, Earthquake Mega Venusaur, Mamoswine, Diggersby, Hippowdon, and a few other Pokemon with some prediction, and start blasting holes with its excellent STABs and power.

Heracross with Roost: Heracross can use boosting or tank sets much better now, not to mention that Guts + reliable recovery is an excellent combo, take make Heracross a great way to deal with status users such as Rotom-W, Toxic Chansey, and Scald Suicune.

Poison Heal Snorlax: Snorlax can take advantage of its excellent bulk and decent power to become a good special tank and status absorber. Toxic Aegislash, Mega Charizard Y, Greninja, Zapdos, Rotom-W, Heatran, Snorlax can deal with all of them, and with a great physical movepool (Earthquake, Fire Punch, Pursuit, Rock Slide, Crunch, Explosion) and Curse, it's no slouch offensively either. Oh, and STAB 140 BP Facade too!

Drizzle Bronzong: Bronzong would be the perfect Pokemon to make balanced rain teams really viable again, with its useful defensive typing and good support options, such as Stealth Rock, Trick Room, and dual screens.

 

[Jaroda]

I think reasoning should be provided with a vote for it to count to encourage discussion as voting occurs and so people who only vote and then go silent participate better.

Anyway Heracross with Roost sounds interesting, able to run a Bulk Up set similar to Conkeldurr only to have access to instant recovery. And it'd be intense on Mega Heracross who really does have the bulk to pull off a Bulk Up + Roost set with only Pin Missile and Rock Blast, able to overpower things.

However I want to vote for Poison Heal Snorlax. Snorlax has always needed SOME form of recovery, and super Lefties in conjunction with status immunity is no small trifle. This could potentially allow him the breathing room to abuse Curse once again and really abuse Body Slam spammage to spread paralysis, and add Crunch for perfect neutral coverage.

 

[Soul Fly]

poison heal snorlax sounds amazing.

 

[Taehl]

Roost Heracross

 

[Salemance]

Hmm, I am gonna really have to come up with something better than the suggestions I've had. One day... XD
(sorry me talking to self there. Moving on)

I will posts thoughts on them when I have more time, but I will go with the one I like best in Levitate Chandelure.

 

[Flechazo]

I'm torn between Levitate Chandelure and Poison Heal Snorlax, but I'll have to vote for Poison Heal Snorlax. He needs the buff more, especially since Chandelure does appreciate that Fire-immunity and the ability to nuke the opposing mon with Fire Blast/Overheat because of it. Also, Levitate Chandelure cannot safely switch into Landorus due to Stone Edge.

 

[alexwolf]

Anyway Heracross with Roost sounds interesting, able to run a Bulk Up set similar to Conkeldurr only to have access to instant recovery. And it'd be intense on Mega Heracross who really does have the bulk to pull off a Bulk Up + Roost set with only Pin Missile and Rock Blast, able to overpower things.

Only regular Heracross will have Roost.

 

[Taehl]

Only regular Heracross will have Roost.

Wouldn't that make MegaCross have Roost too?

 

[Red Cat]

Here are my opinions on the four:

Levitate Chandelure: Being able to get free switches on Earthquake and Landorus is very helpful for something as powerful as Chandelure. I could see this really getting some use.

Heracross with Roost: Its defensive typing and bulk has always been underrated, although it doesn't like all of the Flying, Fire, and Fairy attacks going around this generation. Still, it is a great answer to Knock Off users and status abusers which could make it viable. Bulk Up + Roost does sound very interesting too. My biggest issue is that giving Heracross Roost but not its Mega is a game mechanics change.

Poison Heal Snorlax: It can be a good status absorber, but honestly I don't see how this is better than Gliscor. Also, alexwolf, you should remove the mention that it tanks Mega Charizard Y; it is 2HKOed without Thick Fat. If you run max SDef to tank Mega Charizard Y, you might as well be running Chansey instead since Snorlax is not going to be hitting very hard. Wow, I totally forgot about Facade. Maybe this thing can be good. I need to stop editing this.

Drizzle Bronzong: It is slightly better than Politoed, but not much. It doesn't have Water STAB to take advantage of Drizzle itself, and it can't hold Light Clay and Damp Rock at the same time, so Dual Screens is not a great option. The best reason I could see for voting for this Theorymon is to have double rain with Politoed.

I'm going with Levitiate Chandelure.

Screw Chandy, I'm changing my vote to Poison Heal Snorlax.

 

[alexwolf]

Here are my opinions on the four:

Levitate Chandelure: Being able to get free switches on Earthquake and Landorus is very helpful for something as powerful as Chandelure. I could see this really getting some use.

Heracross with Roost: Its defensive typing and bulk has always been underrated, although it doesn't like all of the Flying attacks going around this generation. Still, it is a great answer to Knock Off users and status abusers which could make it viable. My biggest issue is that giving Heracross Roost but not its Mega is a game mechanics change.

Poison Heal Snorlax: It can be a good status absorber, but honestly I don't see how this is better than Gliscor. Also, alexwolf, you should remove the mention that it tanks Mega Charizard Y; it is 2HKOed without Thick Fat.

Drizzle Bronzong: It is slightly better than Politoed, but not much. It doesn't have Water STAB to take advantage of Drizzle itself, and it can't hold Light Clay and Damp Rock at the same time, so Dual Screens is not a great option.

I'm going with Levitiate Chandelure.

Max HP / max SpD+ Snorlax still avoids the 2HKO from Mega Charizard Y, acting as a decent check to it, especially with Rock Slide.

And i don't care about mechanics, all this is theorymon anyway, don't get stuck on details.

 

[acestriker19]

Opinion time cause I feel bad that I haven't said much in this thread yet.

First, I am so scared of poison heal lax. It gets a 140 base power STAB facade and status immunity. Pick up 1 or 2 curses and you're unbreakable on both sides. I'm not voting for this because i think it's too OP for the metagame right now and I personally would not enjoy facing this at all.

Roost Heracross is interesting but as with empoleon recovery is useless if you're getting hit with SE attacks all the time. Heracross even with roost will die if any bird looks at him.

Now for the struggle as much as I love levitate Chandy it feels very 1 dimensional compared to drizzle bronzong who can add both utility to rain teams and help drizzle toed. With two drizzle setters rain becomes a more diverse and threatening playstyle.

Sorry if some of this is illegible I'm typing on my phone.

 

[bobbyvaporeon]

Poison Heal Snorlax
I've always said this would be awesome.
Also dat Facade too

 

[Jaroda]

Oh wow, I didn't even consider Facade on Snorlax. O_O Screw Body Slam...

And regarding Heracross, that seems a bit odd considering you've said prior we wouldn't be changing game mechanics. But it's your project.

 

[Salemance]

...HOLY CRAP FACADE!

...im so scared of that thing now. I really, really am...

 

[trc]

Poison Heal Snorlax

 

[/TenKen/]

I'll say Drizzle Bronzong mostly because it makes the most sense flavour wise and Rain is the only weather without a back-up inducer.

Chandelure doesn't seem very interesting and Snorlax is scary, me too doesn't want to face that.

P.S. Just a nitpick but since Heracross doesn't exactly fly I'd rather see Slack Off than Roost (the healing should be the same).

 

[alexwolf]

Oh wow, I didn't even consider Facade on Snorlax. O_O Screw Body Slam...

And regarding Heracross, that seems a bit odd considering you've said prior we wouldn't be changing game mechanics. But it's your project.

I meant that people shouldn't base their theorymons around mechanic changes and such. I don't allow Roost Mega Heracross because it would steal the spotlight of regular Heracross, which is already plenty viable. You could even see Roost Mega Heracross as existing for all i care, and just me not allowing it in this thread and on the ladder.

 

[U-Ralph]

That Snorlax, i felt there was something to do here, this will be intersting to see how the meta can evolve with that new threat.

 

[Je-Muzu]

Poison Heal Snorlax i would miss thick fat tho

 

[Valmanway]

Here is my opinion on all of these suggestions:

Levitate Chandelure: This is a nice buff, giving it a free switch in on previously mentioned Ground-types, and only having to deal with one entry hazard makes things more manageable in terms of health, and he might force some Ground-types into using up a coverage slot just to nail Chandelure. This change only strips him of switching in on Fire-type moves, which he resists anyways, so a small nerf for a big buff. I'm sold.

Heracross with Roost: I'm a little mixed on this one. In a positive perspective, he can heal off Burn and entry hazard damage, and can take on stall teams much more efficiently. In a negative perspective, while his bulk is rather good, Roost would only help the passive damage, while fast, offensive teams can still pressure him out. Another note is that he'll be filling up a moveslot for Roost, so he'd have a bit of 4 moveslot syndrome.

Poison Heal Snorlax: This seems good in theory, having consistent recovery and protection form other status if he carries a Toxic Orb is helpful for a defensive Pokemon like Snorlax, and having a check/counter to Ghost-types is important this gen, and a beefed up Facade is icing on the cake, but Fighting-types are still the plague to him, and his lack of resistances outside of a Ghost immunity makes him seem like a specially defensive, poor man's Gliscor to me.

Drizzle Bronzong: Again, one of those ideas that look good in theory. Drizzle removes the Fire weakness and his bulk can really carry him the extra mile. But with Levitate gone, he's now susceptible to all Ground-types, as well as having weaknesses in Ghost- and Dark-type moves giving him hell. Also, with the weather nerf, Bronzong only offers a temporary Fire neutrality, so if Charizard is still alive, Bronzong is never 100% safe to switch in.

So with all this said, I would vote for Levitate Chandelure.

*Edit

I think it's fair to point out that Levitate Chandelure would face serious competition with Gengar, who is much faster and only has somewhat lower special attack, as well as having a wider movepool with Sludge Bomb, Thunderbolt, Focus Miss Focus Blast, Dazzling Gleam, and Disable.

Second Edit*

Well I've had a complete change of heart. Poison Heal Snorlax.

 

[Ajwf]

The general issue I had with deciding is that all of them kind of have a great usable ability before hand (Wasn't terribly interested in Hera, sorry). Losing Infiltrator for Chandy is probably the least hurtful, but does it counter ZardY without flash fire? I'm not really sure. Bronzong without levitate is a sitting duck in an EQ meta. Sure, a great rain setter but it still has a rather deadweight movepool outside of it... Perhaps the worst movepool of any psychic type above NU (Espeon comes close, I guess...). And poison heal snorlax loses the item slot AND the ability thick fat for Zard Y. You'd have to run toxic orb to rely on this ability... Which I guess isn't terrible considering Gliscor does it. But I'd be worried about the lack of AV or Leftover options.

Overall, I think Poison heal snorlax would still have the most to gain, as poison heal users by themselves seem to gain incredible stalling capacity. Snorlax has always needed some kind of recovery, I think Slack off would've helped more to retain thick fat though.

Edit: Snorlax then would become a good switch for trick users. Guess that's a bonus.

 

[Mugenman88]

Poison Heal Snorlax

There's a lot of sets I can already think of for this