Ok true you did not mention taunting BP, but HO does not run anything bulky enough to phase most of the time, so why bother running it? Even if they had it, they would get destroyed before they used it. And bulky gazers in general aren't viable in OU except for quag. And the OU viable ones in General would rather run something else. Good night. I'm done.
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Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains
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I think if Haze Quagsire is mandatory to beat BP it's called over-centralization. Regardless I don't run haze or Quag because I don't meet enough BP teams to justify it. BP is an extremely strong tactic in smart hands but currently I don't think the metagame has reached a position where it warrants a ban. I could probably ragequit against every well made BP team and still not worry too much about my rating.
Sylveon safely switches in and starts CMing up. Switcheroo is easily seen with protect since Noivern is not a pokemon that can capitalize on a predicted protect.
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 149-176 (37.8 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sylveon safely switches in and starts CMing up. Switcheroo is easily seen with protect since Noivern is not a pokemon that can capitalize on a predicted protect.
Having used BP as a primary team mechanic for two gens, I believe I can very well say it's not broken or uncompetitive in the slightest. To me, BP is a high risk high reward strategy. There are so many things that can just come in and put a pull stop to your whole operation. My BP team probably isn't the most efficient at it (it's full of Eeveelutions), but they can still get the job done most of the time.
Really, the best way to deal with BP is to use the ultra secret "punch them in the face until they die" technique. Vaporeon, Sylveon, and Umbreon are probably some of the bulkiest things you'll see on a BP team. However, they can ALL be dispatched very quickly with the right type of coverage. Bisharp makes short work of Sylveon even if they have a SE HP attack. Umbreon is still crazy slow, even at +2 and mach punches and close combats are the bane of his life.
Hell, Mega Heracross packing Arm Thrust, Bullet Seed, Rock Blast, and Pin Missile cleans through pretty much everything you can put on a BP team. Given the right conditions, he can even power through Mega Mawile, and that's saying something.
Really, the best way to deal with BP is to use the ultra secret "punch them in the face until they die" technique. Vaporeon, Sylveon, and Umbreon are probably some of the bulkiest things you'll see on a BP team. However, they can ALL be dispatched very quickly with the right type of coverage. Bisharp makes short work of Sylveon even if they have a SE HP attack. Umbreon is still crazy slow, even at +2 and mach punches and close combats are the bane of his life.
Hell, Mega Heracross packing Arm Thrust, Bullet Seed, Rock Blast, and Pin Missile cleans through pretty much everything you can put on a BP team. Given the right conditions, he can even power through Mega Mawile, and that's saying something.
The problem with sending in a pokemon to deal with one of their pokemon is that they can simply baton pass out to an appropriate counter and begin to set up which can easily be done with the speed boost.
On a side note: Anyone who thinks haze quagsire counters baton pass teams:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-107592633
Is the move Baton Pass banworthy in itself? No, it's an excellent way for Dark-weak pokemon to handle Pursuit, and single Baton Passing is in no way a problem, but I think the main difficulty when facing Baton Pass chains is that they don't correspond to the usual notion of checks and counters, as playing against a Baton Pass team isn't like facing a team of 6 pokemon, but is closer to facing a team of one 'super' pokemon with multiple abilities, the ability to freely boost speed, boost defensive stats, permanent switch initiative/momentum, and to sweep with a move that accumulates more power with a greater number of boosts. I guess the problem I have with full Baton Pass is the absolute win/lose nature of the matchup - where if a team has a guaranteed check (as an extreme example, Prankster Murkrow with Haze), then it wins, but if it doesn't, and the opponent can't power through Scolipede -> Sylveon before it starts Calm Minding (the most common version I've seen on the ladder), then all of the odds are in favour of the Baton Pass team.
After using the team here(everyone should go ahead and try it) i've decided that Baton Pass needs to go. It takes about 4 battles to learn and a couple more to master it. The lack of skill needed is seriously scary. That was my main problem with the team. Only once in like 30 battles did i win a battle because of chance(a slaking missed a giga impact...), the rest were either dominating, easy wins or losses to random pokemon or bad misplays. That is not to say the team needs a lot of prediction. It has pokemon that do well against it, certainly, like prankster Taunt and Mandi but they are hardly counters. More like checks at best. They were mostly annoyances and during my battles not once did they stop the actual strategy. My loses came to bad/weird pokemon like choice scarf Darmanitan or Haze Tentacruel etc. Through my testing i've come up with the conclusion that a dedicated baton pass team has no counters, only minor annoyances. You'll lose because people use random mediocre pokemon and maybe once in a blue moon a misplay....
While I agree with you that we shouldn't destroy full BP as a play style, I don't think banning Espeon will do that. Even without espeon, BP teams can prevent phazing with Smeargle ingrain. Its just a lot harder to pull off. BP teams would also lose to taunt, but the vast majority of teams don't carry it, and if you creating a BP team that might be a risk you have to take. It should be ok for a BP team to lose based off of a bad matchup, as they signed up for it when making a BP team (unlike the non-BP user). Basically, I think banning Baton Pass+Espeon or Espeon as a whole would make BP much harder to pull off, while not completely destroying the strategy as a whole.
That'd go back to one of my first points, where a simple ban of one of the pokemon, moves or abilities used in a Baton Pass team would have collateral damage. Espeon is useful outside of BP teams.
Banning Espeon would mean BP teams would either have to use Mega Absol or go without without Magic Bounce, which would make them much easier to counter because they'd be vulnerable to taunt and phazing (inb4 "but I don't want to fit in a widely distributed and useful move like Taunt on my team, just get rid of BP teams.") It'd be a huge blow to BP teams. But there's the issue of: then no one can use Espeon, and Espeon can use Baton Pass to gain momentum or avoid pursuit trapping.
Nerfing Baton Pass is absolutely silly. This is an example of people's wanting to ban things they simply don't like instead of banning/nerfing it due to a lack of reliable options to deal with it that have utility outside of countering Baton Pass, which isn't the case here. People are having trouble with Baton Pass--or, rather, dislike it--due to a fundamental lacuna of the play-style.
Baton Pass' goal is simple: These teams are meant to be a collective aggregate that is an impenetrable piece armor that can also sweep with impunity. However, the problem with Baton Pass is inherent to its design--every Pokémon matters. If even one Pokémon goes down, the entire team is in serious trouble, and the Baton Pass player is in great danger of losing without some serious creativity.
The keystone to every good Baton Pass team is not Espeon but Scolipede. Granted, Espeon's Magic Bounce ability is essential, for it prevents Roar, Whirlwind, and status; however, Espeon is so frail that it is completely reliant on passed defensive boosts, or Substitutes, from Scolipede, and others, in order to be remotely effective. Scolipede proves so dangerous because, as we all know, it can gain Defensive and Speed boosts easily and simultaneously, both of which are critical to creating that impenetrable piece of armor. As a result of this fact, Scolipede, also, usually is the lead.
So, considering that it usually only takes one KO to significantly weaken a Baton Pass team and that Scolipede is usually the lead, the answer to countering full Baton Pass teams is simple: KO Scolipede before he accumulates an absurd amount of boosts to pass and proceed to win the game. But exactly how do we do that? From the top of my head, one Pokémon is the answer: Talonflame.
Both the Choice Band and Swords Dance variants of Talonflame, a very common OU Pokémon, put Scolipede--and Baton Pass teams by extension--in a very awkward position. Any intelligent player with Talonflame facing a Baton Pass team with Scolipede, which they almost always are, should always send out Talonflame first; there is no reason not to. Swords Dance Talonflame can proceed to set up, whereas Choice Band Talonflame can start Brave Birding.
Scolipede can only respond to this threat in so many ways, none of which are very effective. He could use Iron Defense first; however, Talonflame could either use Swords Dance or Brave Bird first, which will put his HP in a dangerously low place. He could use Protect, which buys him a turn, at least; however, that gives Talonflame a free turn to set a Swords Dance. He could switch; however, most Baton Pass Pokémon are defensively frail. Talonflame could rip through most of them, especially Espeon, easily.
Also, what's great about Talonflame is that he has utility outside of countering Baton Pass. He's not some random niche Pokémon.
Though this is only one example of Baton Pass' flaws, this strategy (which is not mindless, might I add, for any good player needs an answer to threats like these, for which there are not many) is not invincible. It's actually far from it. In my own personal opinion (Disclaimer: I only speak for myself here), the community has become stuck to their usual sets and ways, and many are no longer evolving with the metagame and looking for out-of-the-box solutions to new threats. Although Talonflame is by no means unusual, sending him out first is an out-of-the-box strategy, for he normally would not be set out like that; however, sometimes taking these risks are entirely appropriate, especially when they net a win. Are not good players supposed to make these risks? They are necessary in Pokémon.
Baton Pass' goal is simple: These teams are meant to be a collective aggregate that is an impenetrable piece armor that can also sweep with impunity. However, the problem with Baton Pass is inherent to its design--every Pokémon matters. If even one Pokémon goes down, the entire team is in serious trouble, and the Baton Pass player is in great danger of losing without some serious creativity.
The keystone to every good Baton Pass team is not Espeon but Scolipede. Granted, Espeon's Magic Bounce ability is essential, for it prevents Roar, Whirlwind, and status; however, Espeon is so frail that it is completely reliant on passed defensive boosts, or Substitutes, from Scolipede, and others, in order to be remotely effective. Scolipede proves so dangerous because, as we all know, it can gain Defensive and Speed boosts easily and simultaneously, both of which are critical to creating that impenetrable piece of armor. As a result of this fact, Scolipede, also, usually is the lead.
So, considering that it usually only takes one KO to significantly weaken a Baton Pass team and that Scolipede is usually the lead, the answer to countering full Baton Pass teams is simple: KO Scolipede before he accumulates an absurd amount of boosts to pass and proceed to win the game. But exactly how do we do that? From the top of my head, one Pokémon is the answer: Talonflame.
Both the Choice Band and Swords Dance variants of Talonflame, a very common OU Pokémon, put Scolipede--and Baton Pass teams by extension--in a very awkward position. Any intelligent player with Talonflame facing a Baton Pass team with Scolipede, which they almost always are, should always send out Talonflame first; there is no reason not to. Swords Dance Talonflame can proceed to set up, whereas Choice Band Talonflame can start Brave Birding.
Scolipede can only respond to this threat in so many ways, none of which are very effective. He could use Iron Defense first; however, Talonflame could either use Swords Dance or Brave Bird first, which will put his HP in a dangerously low place. He could use Protect, which buys him a turn, at least; however, that gives Talonflame a free turn to set a Swords Dance. He could switch; however, most Baton Pass Pokémon are defensively frail. Talonflame could rip through most of them, especially Espeon, easily.
Also, what's great about Talonflame is that he has utility outside of countering Baton Pass. He's not some random niche Pokémon.
Though this is only one example of Baton Pass' flaws, this strategy (which is not mindless, might I add, for any good player needs an answer to threats like these, for which there are not many) is not invincible. It's actually far from it. In my own personal opinion (Disclaimer: I only speak for myself here), the community has become stuck to their usual sets and ways, and many are no longer evolving with the metagame and looking for out-of-the-box solutions to new threats. Although Talonflame is by no means unusual, sending him out first is an out-of-the-box strategy, for he normally would not be set out like that; however, sometimes taking these risks are entirely appropriate, especially when they net a win. Are not good players supposed to make these risks? They are necessary in Pokémon.
Espeon's really only good on baton pass teams, as there are much better users of dual screens (both deoxys forms can use magic coat and taunt anyways). Xatu would still be there if someone really wanted Magic bounce.
Anyways another solution could be banning baton pass+ magic bounce. As I already said, BP teams can still prevent phazing with ingrain, its just becomes much more difficult to do (which is a good thing, as it takes some of the brainless aspect away from BP teams). Still some collateral damage on Espeon, but honestly there's collateral damage for every possible solution.
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There's still the whole banning of something that really doesn't deserve a ban, only to nerf a particular strategy.
Espeon is only "ban worthy" if you take into account its role on a Baton Pass team. Kingdra and several other swift swimmers were only ban worthy when used on a team with Drizzle. I just think that, should a ban be made, a complex ban that doesn't prohibit the usage of any pokemon or move for any other team is the best ban to do.
This would still hurt Espeon's viability on different teams, and as a complex ban there's really no reason to prefer it over a different, complex ban that achieves the same goal but doesn't have as much collateral damage.
Flechazo: Not every team can run a Talonflame or a Pinsir, and for that matter not every player likes using HO (which is the best playstyle to match up against baton pass). And any baton pass player that's not braindead see that Talonflame lurking in the team preview and say, this is Threat Number One, and simply choose to lead with Vaporeon or Zapdos instead, preserving the Scolipede at all costs.
And honestly as said before, and having experimented with baton pass myself, I can say that even if you break the roundabout once, say with Quagsire, if you're persistent enough you can start the chain again and make a comeback. The terrifying beauty of a wellconstructed baton pass team is, that it not only fully controls the momentum, but has multiple redundancies and failsafes in case one member falls. Although losing a member is a big disadvantage, there is always Zapdos, Gliscor, Jolteon etc. to carry Agility as a back-up in case Scolipede falls, and likewise will there be multiple Iron Defence users in Mawile, M-Scizor, and so on. Even Sylveon can function as a back-up Stored Power user (that beats Dark-types no less) and one can perfectly well use M-Absol together with Espeon, were you so inclined, or just set up Spore+Ingrain Sash Smeargle and call it a day.
And again, the premise of your argument only comes to the heart of the problem, which is that you need the good match-up to win against baton pass. What about stall or balance? What if running multiple 4x rock-weak sweepers is a bad thing for the team? and so on.
And honestly as said before, and having experimented with baton pass myself, I can say that even if you break the roundabout once, say with Quagsire, if you're persistent enough you can start the chain again and make a comeback. The terrifying beauty of a wellconstructed baton pass team is, that it not only fully controls the momentum, but has multiple redundancies and failsafes in case one member falls. Although losing a member is a big disadvantage, there is always Zapdos, Gliscor, Jolteon etc. to carry Agility as a back-up in case Scolipede falls, and likewise will there be multiple Iron Defence users in Mawile, M-Scizor, and so on. Even Sylveon can function as a back-up Stored Power user (that beats Dark-types no less) and one can perfectly well use M-Absol together with Espeon, were you so inclined, or just set up Spore+Ingrain Sash Smeargle and call it a day.
And again, the premise of your argument only comes to the heart of the problem, which is that you need the good match-up to win against baton pass. What about stall or balance? What if running multiple 4x rock-weak sweepers is a bad thing for the team? and so on.
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I still think that we should aim for the simplest complex ban if we are going for a complex ban (if that makes any sense).
Aaron's Aron
A concussion update in my info tab
This is certainly an interesting topic. It is very irritating to face. One idea that I thought of to lessen the threat of full baton pass teams is to implement a commplex ban. I'm not saying the ban has to be this specifically, it is just an example.
Ban Baton Pass Scolipede from being on a team with more than one other pokemon that has baton pass (so only Scolipede and one other pokemon could have baton pass).
With this ban, you could effectively weaken Baton Pass teams without making the pokemon useless themselves. Scolipede is a strong driving force of Baton Pass teams, and by limiting the number pokemon that can have Baton Pass on the team with it, it takes Scolipede off full Baton Pass teams. This allows full Baton Pass teams to still be used, they are just harder to utilize. However, Scolipede can still be used on it's own and Baton Pass boosts to individual pokemon.
This is just one idea, and just an example. But I think this kind of thing would be good for nerfing full Baton Pass teams, while still enabling pokemon like Scolipede to be used.
Ban Baton Pass Scolipede from being on a team with more than one other pokemon that has baton pass (so only Scolipede and one other pokemon could have baton pass).
With this ban, you could effectively weaken Baton Pass teams without making the pokemon useless themselves. Scolipede is a strong driving force of Baton Pass teams, and by limiting the number pokemon that can have Baton Pass on the team with it, it takes Scolipede off full Baton Pass teams. This allows full Baton Pass teams to still be used, they are just harder to utilize. However, Scolipede can still be used on it's own and Baton Pass boosts to individual pokemon.
This is just one idea, and just an example. But I think this kind of thing would be good for nerfing full Baton Pass teams, while still enabling pokemon like Scolipede to be used.
I agree, the simpler the better. If we can nerf Baton Pass without banning certain pokemon, I think we should do that though.
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So it seems people have mentioned haze and mold breaker but did you guys forget something else that got some changes this gen?
Crits.
While as people tend to call focus energy and the crit+ items a gimmick, it's still a power boost that ignores stat up defenses, thus giving a niche with dealing with em and still raises power a bit to deal with non baton passers.
Granted, OU tier wise, the only real OU mons that access it which would benefit anything from it are scizor, conk, pinsir (or infernape if you're into that) and in normal case they would prefer swords dance/bulk up.
Another thing I should mention is trick room, for it certainly hurts the speed part of the baton passers, granted, not many people use trick room either so..
When it comes to the overall:
I personaly don't really see baton pass teams to be so big deal as people think it is, in priority the generation I'm really surprised that baton pass teams are causing so much issues.
While as they can be very annoying to deal with, nerfing them by banning parts of the needed chains or moves kinda sucks and it's really hard to find a way of a nerf that wouldn't completely kill it.
Bit like the analogy with the drizzle + swift swim ban, you gotta find a way of a nerf that doesnt kill it but nerfs it still allowing you to keep chaining.
Personaly, I'm not really sure what could be a working solution, banning espeon or other key members would kinda suck as they might have other needs in other teams, limiting the amount of baton pass users would also be very low blow to kill it.
honestly, only thing that comes to mind for me that wouldn't severerly cripple it but would still nerf it would be to ban multiple baton pass users when a pokemon with stored power is present in the team.
But that probably wouldn't be enough either.
Regardless, I'd really like it if people would experiment bit outside the box with their team building, just to take baton pass into account, before dropping their hammer in this.
Crits.
While as people tend to call focus energy and the crit+ items a gimmick, it's still a power boost that ignores stat up defenses, thus giving a niche with dealing with em and still raises power a bit to deal with non baton passers.
Granted, OU tier wise, the only real OU mons that access it which would benefit anything from it are scizor, conk, pinsir (or infernape if you're into that) and in normal case they would prefer swords dance/bulk up.
Another thing I should mention is trick room, for it certainly hurts the speed part of the baton passers, granted, not many people use trick room either so..
When it comes to the overall:
I personaly don't really see baton pass teams to be so big deal as people think it is, in priority the generation I'm really surprised that baton pass teams are causing so much issues.
While as they can be very annoying to deal with, nerfing them by banning parts of the needed chains or moves kinda sucks and it's really hard to find a way of a nerf that wouldn't completely kill it.
Bit like the analogy with the drizzle + swift swim ban, you gotta find a way of a nerf that doesnt kill it but nerfs it still allowing you to keep chaining.
Personaly, I'm not really sure what could be a working solution, banning espeon or other key members would kinda suck as they might have other needs in other teams, limiting the amount of baton pass users would also be very low blow to kill it.
honestly, only thing that comes to mind for me that wouldn't severerly cripple it but would still nerf it would be to ban multiple baton pass users when a pokemon with stored power is present in the team.
But that probably wouldn't be enough either.
Regardless, I'd really like it if people would experiment bit outside the box with their team building, just to take baton pass into account, before dropping their hammer in this.
Also Trick Room doesn't really matter when they are behind a sub, since even if you break it the turn you set up TR is the turn they just sub again. You spend 3/4 TR turns trying to break that sub they just set up and then they can just set it up right after that.
This goes back to teambuilding: Some teams are successful while others are not due to a plethora of reasons. If one's team consistently loses, for whatever reason, then the player has to--or rather should--edit the team to deal with what threatens it. This is a fact of competitive Pokémon. Though you do need a good match-up against BP, as you say, the same can be said about any teams, not just BP teams. This is another well-accepted fact of Pokémon.
Also, more than HO teams can fit Talonflame and M-Pinsir. Such conjecture is grossly oversimplifying their utility. Furthermore, more than those two can adequately deal with BP. I used one example because of convenience.
Regarding leading with Vaporeon or Zapdos first, prediction is a core part of Pokémon, and you conveniently forget this tenant. Because of this, the player should, in addition to having Talonflame, have an answer to Vaporeon and/or Zapdos on his/her team that works outside of beating Baton Pass (of which there are plenty). As I said before, it is all about effective teambuilding in addition to effective prediction. Remember, it takes two to play Pokémon; one player is not doing all of the predicting. That is grossly oversimplified.
If any member of a BP is wasting a turn setting up Agility if Scolipede has gone down, that is a turn that s/he can be hit, and many Baton Passers are frail (except Gliscor, but there's HP Ice for that). If Scolipede is gone and the opponent sends out Zapdos and or Jolteon, s/he will have to choose between Substitute or Agility. That is not a good position for the player to be in considering s/he will most likely get hit.
For Iron Defense, any team should also have Special Attackers, instead of only Physical Attackers; otherwise, the player has no means to effectively deal with it. For BP teams, accumulating Special Defensive boosts is more difficult than accumulating Defense.
Also, in order for Sylveon to effectively used Stored Power, she desperately needs to be passed Defense boosts, for she is way too physically frail, and any smart player should not let those boosts be passed to her.
All in all, this all goes back to effective teambuilding and prediction. If something you are doing is not working, then you have to change it. The same X will always result in the same Y. The community needs to start thinking of creating solutions to what we're seeing. Like with any team, you have to consider what your threats are and what counter-measures your opponent will use. This is common sense.
As far as I can tell, people only want to ban it because they don't like it. Baton pass teams aren't invincible, nor are they really that hard to deal with. You realize you're fighting a baton pass team? get in a good solid hit. They'll either baton pass out or try to take you on, in which case you break their chain with your next hit. Haze is an option, as are roar and whirlwind. It's not luck based, it's not broken, it's just something people don't like, thus isn't banworthy.
Do you realize how cowardly it is to hide behind boosts in a baton pass teams? as strategic as you think it might be, once those boosts are absorbed, the opponent is done..from there on, it is solitaire...the nerve of people to even play baton pass teams is despicable. They just wanna win without any strategy...almost like they wanna see people suffer as they fall under the wrath of the boosts...Are you trying to say that, for each team, it should have one pokemon or two, that can upset the balance of a baton pass team? do you realize how damaging it is to counter a lot of teams in general while trying to give a pokemon something jus so it can get rid of baton pass teams? to have a pokemon for just that specific reason...can really upset the balance of any team...though it depends on what team one makes, but come on, everyone wants to make different teams, and not jus specific teams WHILE having a pokemon like say greninja and waste its move slot for haze..or even waste the pokemon slot by putting a hazer in...JUST for a baton pass team...
Even if other pokemon got boosts, while it not being a baton pass team, one can get around it and beat it..like example, a mega gyarados used dragon dance, It beats one pokemon, then I bring out a choice scarfed raikou, and beat it..or leave it with 10% health left, gyarados finishes it with earthquake, nd then I bring out my medicham with fake out....see? I defeated mega gyarados...but one can't utilize their team so they can get rid of a baton pass user like espeon..or any that got boosts because of espeon and their team members...cuz they can predict what you are gonna do next while having the boosts in store..UNLESS they have haze..and a fast haze user to boot...one that exceeds a speed of 350(which is espeon's speed at level 100)...(Im looking at you greninja) even if there is an alternate strategy that does not user haze, it will be very obscure in the first place...and quite rare too.
Can get very ridiculous. I started playing haze greninja with my team, and it made every baton pass user quit...cuz I predicted each of their moves...but why must I do that? Why must I waste a team slot for a pokemon, just so it can deal with one pokemon??
It is really not worth it. I mean sure there are other teams that can get boosts, and haze will be useful there, but haze is really not necessary since there are ways to get around stuff without haze, especially if u take note of dragon dance which boosts speed, so..hazing will be particularly difficult there...
I can take out teams that consists of blissey/chansey + skarmories, by using landorus with super power and its basic special moves while having a hidden fire intact, and with this same strategy, I can take out other teams too even if they dont have that solid defence formation, so using this strategy with landorus benefits me as a whole in general...which I can't exactly say about as a whole when compared with a haze user, unless it is scarfed first..which is most unlikely.
I apologize for my outburst in the beginning, but you must understand how infuriating it is for just anyone that faces a baton passer team.
So basically, it is best to ban baton pass+magic bounce or like previous users have mentioned, banning espeon+baton pass that includes more than 2 or 3 baton pass users along with it.
Baton Pass seriously needs some sort of nerf because you can just hop on the ladder with it and solidly win the large of majority of your matches with it solely on the fact teams can't run a hard stop to it. You either full-out win or lose against baton pass, there isn't any room in between. The sentiment of just straight up quitting vs Baton Pass while running stall on the ladder is prevalent.
The serious problem with full Baton Pass teams is that they can be completely optimized to nullify any sort of couterplay against them. There has been some serious buffs to Baton Pass these last two gens, namely...
tl;dr baton pass has few options to couterplay, and the people who play it rely upon teams not going far out of their way to full-stop counter it for wins. roar mega-gyarados is ass lol Magic Bounce + Baton Pass is the way to go or no more than 2 baton passers per team
Edit: the +3 + CM comes from a comparison to psychic
The serious problem with full Baton Pass teams is that they can be completely optimized to nullify any sort of couterplay against them. There has been some serious buffs to Baton Pass these last two gens, namely...
- Magic Bounce Baton Pass
I didn't just include Espeon because Baton Pass teams can adapt to using Mega-Absol. They already spam Substitute like crazy and a safe speed boost pass to Absol is all it takes for an oppurtunity to Mega-Evolve (you can m-evo while using Baton Pass). Anyway with just one slot you cover all of the most common of the couterplay options to Baton Pass, mostly by defensive teams. These options include roar, whirlwing, Taunt, hazard-stacking, and Encore. If Magic Bounce with Baton Pass was eliminated, defensive teams can have an opportunity to fight back against Baton Pass.
- Scolipede
Obviously the increased based stats and access to Iron Defense are buffs from Ninjask. The +2 defense + +2 speed boost kicks Stored Power up to a nice 100 base power right off the bat. There are a lot more subtle advantages to Scolipede compared to Ninjask. Scolipede has a secondary Poison-typing which not only gives it more resists than Ninjask (including the same one Ninjask has) and less weaknesses, but also an ability to absorb Toxic Spikes. If you could get Toxic Spikes in on Baton Pass, you could at least put them on the clock. Now that isn't on option.
- No cap on Stored Power's base power
Really dumb decision on Game Freak's part. Basically every boost on a baton pass team acts as a passive special attack boost. The effect of base power can be very misleading on how large of a difference it makes. Every 3 boosts essentially acts as a +1 SpA stage when using Stored power. Combined with the multiplicative powers of using CM itself you get this:
+2 Speed, +2 Defense (Iron Defense), +2 SpA and SpD (2 Calm Mind's)
+2 0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 310-366 (44.03 - 51.98%) -- 14.06% chance to 2HKO
When the most specially bulky Pokemon in the game is possibly getting 2HKO'ed after only 4 turns of super easy set up that is pratically unphazable, you know there is a problem. Oh yeah Stored Power boosts aren't affected by Unaware. So the primary attacking option for baton pass teams go right through their supposed "counter." Your only shot of surviving is being a dark type.
+2 Speed, +2 Defense (Iron Defense), +2 SpA and SpD (2 Calm Mind's)
+2 0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 310-366 (44.03 - 51.98%) -- 14.06% chance to 2HKO
When the most specially bulky Pokemon in the game is possibly getting 2HKO'ed after only 4 turns of super easy set up that is pratically unphazable, you know there is a problem. Oh yeah Stored Power boosts aren't affected by Unaware. So the primary attacking option for baton pass teams go right through their supposed "counter." Your only shot of surviving is being a dark type.
- Addition of Fairy-typing on Mr. Mime / Sylveon
Mr. Mime gets more handy resists. A dragon immunity prevents it from being phazed by Dragon Tail, the next most common option to phaze outside Roar / Whirlwind / Perish Song. Furthermore, an increased resistance to Circle Throw means your Subs can't be touched / broken by it. So Espeon + Mr. Mime locks down any sort of phazing option you had. Sylveon is a second viable stored power user, and put the pain on dark-types with stab pixelate hyper voice. Both prevent Dark-types that commonly trouble Baton Pass teams in the past, which relied on psychic-types, from being too overbearing.
Edit: the +3 + CM comes from a comparison to psychic
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Here is a list of things I can think of which can counter BP chains and which have viability in OU:
Nasty Plot Thundurus-I
Mega Pinsir
Manaphy
Belly Drum Azumarill
Landorus-I
Talonflame
Calm Mind Unaware Clefable
Volcarona
Chandelure
Mega Gardevoir
Shell Smash Cloyster
I will probably think of more to add to this list, but this is a good start and none of these involved Taunt, Haze, or phazing moves. The point is that there are counters to BP chains, and saying "I don't want to use these" is not an excuse for banning things.
Nasty Plot Thundurus-I
Mega Pinsir
Manaphy
Belly Drum Azumarill
Landorus-I
Talonflame
Calm Mind Unaware Clefable
Volcarona
Chandelure
Mega Gardevoir
Shell Smash Cloyster
I will probably think of more to add to this list, but this is a good start and none of these involved Taunt, Haze, or phazing moves. The point is that there are counters to BP chains, and saying "I don't want to use these" is not an excuse for banning things.
breh
強いだね
My stance on Baton Pass is pretty clear from my post in the swagger np thread. It's a giant load of bullshit. Please do not suggest things like haze or focus energy mons as counters - with respect to haze, viable users are pretty much limited to politoed and quagsire (there are at least legitimate reasons to run haze quag on stall, though). These two don't fit on every playstyle and I think it's silly that a team should be forced to run haze. Focus Energy is even worse because it's a shitty move inherently that's tied to shitty Pokemon. The only even slightly relevant Focus Energy mon I can think of is Kingdra and that gets solidly OHKOed by sylveon (which also is immune to dmeteor and not OHKOed by hydro (which vaporeon is immune to)).
I don't know if this idea has been posted, but I personally feel that the cleanest ban is simply to ban multiple users of Baton Pass on a team. I don't think banning Espeon + BP is the best idea (espeon makes legitimate use of Baton Pass that's not related to the stat boost aspect) but there's never really going to be a team that uses more than one Pokemon with Baton Pass.
@ previous post
Thund can't guarantee a win vs. bp, especially if you dont' lead with it; having a free sub vs. thund I means that you can pass to something and kill it. You can win vs. it when it leads if you just sub on the first turn (if they taunt that's a problem anyway; if they np, you win, if they twave, you keep subtecting and pray you don't get full parad before you get +6 (you outspeed it at +6); at that point you pass both a sub and +6 to something else).
Mega Pinsir is not a counter but a pretty good check; definitely creates problems but there are ways to solve the problem it creates. Same goes for Talonflame. Both are shit on pretty hard by Zapdos.
Manaphy you play around by hitting it with Scolipede when it tries to set up. If you have any boosts (i.e. it doesn't lead) you just pass to Espeon, take a hit, then KO it. Roar Vaporeon fucks it pretty hard.
BD azumarill can be handled with vaporeon to certain extent.
Landorus-I is an actual problem that BP has issues handling because there's not much bp can do to it without killing itself; even Sylveon can't eat two of its moves because of Sludge Wave.
Unaware Clefable loses to Roar Vaporeon.
Volcarona is bad and loses to Sylveon.
Chandelure is bad and loses to Sylveon.
Mega Gardevoir can be impeded by Sylveon and megamawile. Its moves don't go through protect so you get a +1 speed boost no matter what. People will very happily hyper voice scolipede and get 2HKOed by megahorn.
Cloyster is bad and I hope I shouldn't have to explain why.
I don't know if this idea has been posted, but I personally feel that the cleanest ban is simply to ban multiple users of Baton Pass on a team. I don't think banning Espeon + BP is the best idea (espeon makes legitimate use of Baton Pass that's not related to the stat boost aspect) but there's never really going to be a team that uses more than one Pokemon with Baton Pass.
@ previous post
Thund can't guarantee a win vs. bp, especially if you dont' lead with it; having a free sub vs. thund I means that you can pass to something and kill it. You can win vs. it when it leads if you just sub on the first turn (if they taunt that's a problem anyway; if they np, you win, if they twave, you keep subtecting and pray you don't get full parad before you get +6 (you outspeed it at +6); at that point you pass both a sub and +6 to something else).
Mega Pinsir is not a counter but a pretty good check; definitely creates problems but there are ways to solve the problem it creates. Same goes for Talonflame. Both are shit on pretty hard by Zapdos.
Manaphy you play around by hitting it with Scolipede when it tries to set up. If you have any boosts (i.e. it doesn't lead) you just pass to Espeon, take a hit, then KO it. Roar Vaporeon fucks it pretty hard.
BD azumarill can be handled with vaporeon to certain extent.
Landorus-I is an actual problem that BP has issues handling because there's not much bp can do to it without killing itself; even Sylveon can't eat two of its moves because of Sludge Wave.
Unaware Clefable loses to Roar Vaporeon.
Volcarona is bad and loses to Sylveon.
Chandelure is bad and loses to Sylveon.
Mega Gardevoir can be impeded by Sylveon and megamawile. Its moves don't go through protect so you get a +1 speed boost no matter what. People will very happily hyper voice scolipede and get 2HKOed by megahorn.
Cloyster is bad and I hope I shouldn't have to explain why.
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Explain, how these break the chains...give example scenarios with it. I get what you mean though, as it is of course possible to counter such teams without haze nd what not with the right strategy and right moments..but those moments are quite rare too..really rare. However Also, Read the above posts including including mine, incase you have not.
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While I may not have much ground to stand on, never having gotten over 1450 on the OU ladders, I would say that Baton Pass teams are not overpowered, unless played correctly. It is not a simple skill less team setup as people are thinking it is. the task of defeating them falls to taking a second or two to read the team before you actually start the match. Now I have posted a team I run most often, which does fairly well against most baton pass teams without being specific to counter baton pass teams. As you can imagine, its not the greatest, but i choose to run pokemon I like, rather than just what are the most popular. anyway, I digress.
Swampert (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Roar
- Waterfall
Espeon (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Psychic
- Grass Knot
- Dazzling Gleam
Charizard (M) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam
- Air Slash
- Dragon Pulse
Hitmontop (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Technician
EVs: 144 HP / 188 Atk / 176 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Mach Punch
- Fake Out
- Rapid Spin
Crobat (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Toxic
- Taunt
- Brave Bird
- Roost
Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Destiny Bond
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Ice Beam
The two pokemon that should be noted here are Crobat and Swampert, who both do fairly good jobs at stopping BP teams without being specific to that Job alone. Infiltrator gets behind the subs, taunt stops ability boosts aside from speed, and brave bird takes out most speed boost passers. Stealth rock allows for damage upon switches, roar causes them to start over, and if they have an Espeon, you Earthquake them in anticipation of the switch. Its really not that difficult. If you see a smeargle when you start, throw out hitmontop as an opener. fakeout causes them to lose their focus sash, and mach punch stops their setup entirely.
To further develop my point, I don't think there are elements that push Baton Pass over the edge, I mean sure yeah they get annoying, but so does Gale Wings Talonflame IMO. I personally feel that banning Baton Pass is ridiculous, because I feel that people who actually can use a team effectively has to actually be fairly good at predicting and timing, which is not the case as with SwagPlay.
By no means is this a perfect solution, but honestly, I dont think this is a problem with a broken move, as much as it is people not liking Baton Pass. I could very well be wrong though.
Swampert (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Roar
- Waterfall
Espeon (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Psychic
- Grass Knot
- Dazzling Gleam
Charizard (M) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam
- Air Slash
- Dragon Pulse
Hitmontop (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Technician
EVs: 144 HP / 188 Atk / 176 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Mach Punch
- Fake Out
- Rapid Spin
Crobat (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Toxic
- Taunt
- Brave Bird
- Roost
Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Destiny Bond
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Ice Beam
The two pokemon that should be noted here are Crobat and Swampert, who both do fairly good jobs at stopping BP teams without being specific to that Job alone. Infiltrator gets behind the subs, taunt stops ability boosts aside from speed, and brave bird takes out most speed boost passers. Stealth rock allows for damage upon switches, roar causes them to start over, and if they have an Espeon, you Earthquake them in anticipation of the switch. Its really not that difficult. If you see a smeargle when you start, throw out hitmontop as an opener. fakeout causes them to lose their focus sash, and mach punch stops their setup entirely.
To further develop my point, I don't think there are elements that push Baton Pass over the edge, I mean sure yeah they get annoying, but so does Gale Wings Talonflame IMO. I personally feel that banning Baton Pass is ridiculous, because I feel that people who actually can use a team effectively has to actually be fairly good at predicting and timing, which is not the case as with SwagPlay.
By no means is this a perfect solution, but honestly, I dont think this is a problem with a broken move, as much as it is people not liking Baton Pass. I could very well be wrong though.
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