Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[rachet67]

We've already explained many times that 3 BP users is the bare minimum a BP team needs to have all the elements to work. With only 2 users, a BP team can only function as a one-way pass to a sweeper which cannot send the boosts back to the BP users, and therefore, can be dealt with like any other boosting sweeper.

I just don't think we should destroy the entire playstyle of full BP. We should be aiming to make it more manageable, not completely dismantle it. Not everything should have to be able to be dealt with like a boosting sweeper.

 

[Shurtugal]

I have already explained why you're wrong but w/e not reading the thread idc

It's obvious that actual Pokemon bans and BP + Stored Power are dumb. You are so entirely off-base about the number of BP members to ban being arbitrary, it's ridiculous. Yes, a BP team with 5 members is still broken. Yes, a BP team with 4 members is still broken. Yes, a BP team with 3 members is still broken. 5 members? You just run Scolipede / Espeon / Vaporeon / Smeargle / Sylveon, it's not like you needed that last slot for Mime/Zapdos anyways. 4 members? You just play Sylveon as a final receiver w/o BP, no big deal. 3 members?

There's no way to do a 2-mon BP chain. You simply don't have enough components to do it. It's not a subjective baseline. It's based on facts and evidence, which sure as hell aren't arbitrary.

Two reasons why this method is the best compared to Speed Boost + Magic Bounce + Baton Pass and Magic Bounce + Baton Pass.

1) Elegance: Let's look at how you word each of these bans.​

• • Option 1: No more than 2 Pokemon may carry the move Baton Pass on a team.
  • Option 2: No team can have a Pokemon with the ability Speed Boost and the move Baton Pass, and a Pokemon with the ability Magic Bounce and the move Baton Pass, together.
  • Option 3: No team can have a Pokemon with the ability Magic Bounce and the move Baton Pass.

Which one of these makes more sense? The second one is convoluted as all hell, I won't even touch it, and the first option presented is still simpler than the third. One consideration we have when we make bans is simplicity of banlist. If a new player were to look at our banlist to figure out what they can and can't use, would the banlist make sense and be easy to comprehend? A simple ban has been proven inappropriate in this scenario; thus the simplest, most elegant option we can implement is the first presented -- a limit on the amount of BPers allowed on a team. See VictoryHD 's confusion.​

2) Efficiency: What is the problem as we've identified it? It's Baton Pass chains. Let's look at how each of the options presented attacks this problem in terms of efficiency:

• Option 1: This prevents elongated Baton Pass chains completely, which are the entire problem. It attacks the problem directly, which is as efficient as we're going to get.
• Option 2: This doesn't fix the fact that teams without a phazer will still utterly fail against BP. It nerfs the teams slightly, but still leaves the playstyle broken against offense.
• Option 3: See above. Also, this actually bans an entirely non-broken strategy: using Baton Pass on Espeon to gain momentum and avoid Pursuit. Getting rid of it basically kills the remainder of Espeon's viability, which is definitely undesirable.

Overall Effectiveness

• Option 1: Nips the problem at the bud. We won't have any more issues with BP chains. Desirable.
• Option 2: BP is still a terror for teams without a phazer to face, and even then BP still has Mega Absol, not fixing the problem.
• Option 3: See above.

---

For the sake of elegance, I don't think that Option 2 is a very good option. Both Option 2 and Option 3 don't fix the problem entirely and impact legitimate strategies. Thus Option 1 is the best out of what we have.

To be fair, a 3 chain BP is not as easy as you are implying it is. If a player can beat me with just 3 BP mons, then props to them. A 3BP chain isn't broken, and it doesn't have the potential of being broken. Likewise, I'd like to argue that making a ban that encourages possible 3BP chains is a good idea since it doesn't completely destroy the (so called) playstyle, but rather just cripples it to being manageable.

Of course, another user had said we probably shouldn't ban anything period, that Smogon's getting a bit soft, and I kind of agree with that, but if we have to restrict it, 2-3 mon cap is what I encourage; more so the 3.

--
EDIT by Haunter: off-topics are not allowed here.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

A difference between Mega Gengar and Scolipede/Espeon is that Mega Gengar basically never failed at what it set out to do when played by a competent player. Whatever it wanted dead would die and there was nothing the other player could do about it because of Shadow Tag. And unlike Scolipede/Espeon, it functioned on pretty much every team, as opposed to exactly one team (Deniss' or any minor variant of it.)

As a single pokemon, Scolipede and Espeon have many viable checks and counters and are not broken. We are not discussing them, they are not broken; we are discussing Baton Pass teams.

Besides, Scolipede and Espeon can sort of be replaced by Ninjask and Mega Absol, respectively, or something like Agility Scizor. I'm not convinced banning Scolipede or Espeon would solve anything.

While it's true that Gengar was infinitely more abusable, he was banned pretty specifically for his ability to beat things that stand in the way of your win condition, leaving your opponent helpless. Scolipede/Espeon can't do that for every win condition, but the support they give makes a part of the metagame uncompetitive, and fixing that is a must.

So, now that we've established some of the sides, how much more is there to discuss?

srn347 , read the thread, specifically some of Jukain 's posts, and you'll see why your "counters" don't justify leaving baton pass as it is.

BigDaddy , did you just call Jukain dear? Wow. Despite the fact that I disagree with Jukain's claim that BP teams are a problem unto themselves, but Baton Pass is certainly one of the roots of the problem, and there is a problem, so his idea has to be considered.

good point it is probobly time for a "more do less talk" kind of senario but i think a good 80% of people are already agreeing to make it so that its only 2 BPers a team good point none the less

cut that number way down. We're not even close to a majority for one option, let alone a super majority. 80% is way too high.

We've already explained many times that 3 BP users is the bare minimum a BP team needs to have all the elements to work. With only 2 users, a BP team can only function as a one-way pass to a sweeper which cannot send the boosts back to the BP users, and therefore, can be dealt with like any other boosting sweeper.

He's not saying that 2 BPers wouldn't work, he's saying we shouldn't use something that works that well. BP teams haven't been adequately proven to be broken in and of themselves. The OP asks which parts of BP put it over the edge for a reason. Removing a key part of BP (I'd prefer Scolipede) would make it more than fair

 

[TROP]

Keeping a playstyle alive should never be a reason to keep something

 

[BigDaddy]

BigDaddy , did you just call Jukain dear? Wow. Despite the fact that I disagree with Jukain's claim that BP teams are a problem unto themselves, but Baton Pass is certainly one of the roots of the problem, and there is a problem, so his idea has to be considered.

It's only a problem because most of the people against it aren't willing to deal with it (his post was a clear, literal quote of this). So, before calling it a "problem" there should be more research, and by that I mean actual playtesting, not 30 pages of theorymoning back and forth. Someone suggested actual stats for top users, I think that's a big starting point.

 

[The Goomy]

Alright guys. I'm gonna drop my two cents into the bucket here.

As an experienced OU player (and having been in the top 25 many times this gen), I have faced full Baton Pass teams many times, and frankly, I think they are broken. Let me explain why. :S

• Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?

I don't think Baton Pass teams would be a problem for the metagame if they were not as popular with top (ladder) players as they are. However, since there are several people who have laddered (and laughed) their way to the top of the OU ladder, it's quickly becoming a more and more popular "playstyle". As with any new idea or playstyle (i.e. Deosharp....Bioxys), the metagame adapts to beat this new style. In the case of Baton Pass teams, stall runs Pokemon like Haze Quagsire, and HO runs Mega Pinsir to beat Baton Pass. My issue with Baton Pass (most of the time) is that you have to run very specific answers to a somewhat obscure playstyle to win. This is not a playstyle that can be played around like TrickRoom. A well played Baton Pass team will beat every Balanced team there is. As someone who basically always plays Balance, when I see Baton Pass, I know I've lost. It's impossible to break the chain because Baton Pass has everything it needs (I'll get into that next).

• If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?

As Pokemon has released more and more generations, it's harder to counter every playstyle or idea. Baton Pass used to be a weird team option that could work in certain circumstances. However, Baton Pass (much like DeoSharp) has everything it needs to be successful. It has Scolipede, which is at least guarenteed +1 Speed with Mental Herb + Protect to Baton Pass into something. Espeon allows Baton Pass to handle phazing and hazards that would otherwise ruin it. Another way that Baton Pass can lose is to Perish Song, so Mr. Mime gets a place with Soundproof. Vaporeon is an amazing bulky defense passer, Sylveon is great for beating dark types and setting up Calm Minds. Finally, Zapdos/Mawile/MegaScizor/Smeargle are capable of taking on threats that normally hurt BP teams like Mega-Pinsir or Talon, or in Smeargle's case, supporting the team in whatever way it sees fit. Also. It's impossible to predict against Baton Pass. There is no use. Using Baton Pass has little to no skill involved. In a bad matchup? Press Baton Pass, if they switch, then you switch to the appropriate Pokemon and continue the chain. Again, as a Balanced player, it's impossible to break these teams with a team that is viable against the rest of the metagame. The "elements" that push Baton Pass over the edge is the whole chain. Baton Pass has everything it needs. There is no reason to deviate from the standard Baton Pass team, as it is easily the best at what it does. How fun would Pokemon be if there was one team that was clearly far superior to every other team, and got used exclusively? Well. That's how good Baton Pass is. You don't need to change anything.

• Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?

I really don't think that banning an individual Pokemon is the correct way to deal with this Baton Pass situation. As I stated earlier, standard Baton Pass is obviously the best way to utilize the style, but this does not mean that Mr. Mime is a broken Pokemon in OU. In fact, it sucks to be honest. lol. If it came down to choosing which Pokemon to ban, how would you choose? Each Pokemon in the Baton Pass chain is just as important as all the rest in my opinion. And banning one Pokemon does not mean that it could not be replaced. Would it make it more "manageable"? Possibly.

• Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?

Ahahahahahahahahaha. No.

• Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.

As people have said before me, the best way to "fix" the problem with Baton Pass is with a complex ban. It is for this reason that I think the only ban that should be considered is a limit of the number of Pokemon that can have Baton Pass on a team (2). As I stated earlier the problem with Baton Pass is the entire chain, not a single Pokemon. They all serve a purpose and serve it well, which is why it is so difficult to beat. I think doing a complex ban on a particular setup of Pokemon is dangerous because it could possibly lead people to complain about other combinations of Pokemon that are not broken. (Example: "Guys we need to ban Deo-D + Bisharp + Balloon Aegislash on the same team").


TL:DR Baton Pass is broken, limit teams to (2) Pokemon with Baton Pass

EDIT: Scolipede + Espeon on the same team are scary in of itself. It would not ruin Baton Pass as a strategy, but it would force those players to be more creative with a limit of (2).

 

[Questioner]

Reading through this thread, and considering the points, I would agree with limiting the number of Baton Passers, not only for reasons that others have raised, but also partly because I dislike seeing Pokemon banned from OU, as it gives the annoying anti-Smogonists more ammo, and while I do not disagree with any bans so far, if Pokemon keep being banned I might start disagreeing with some. Neither Scolipede nor Espeon is broken, they just allow the Baton Pass chains to become broken easily. I myself have use a BP Scolipede, and I have certainly not found it to be overpowered by any means. At the very least, the different options should be tested, and explored fully so we can better understand the full impact of such an action.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

It's only a problem because most of the people against it aren't willing to deal with it (his post was a clear, literal quote of this). So, before calling it a "problem" there should be more research, and by that I mean actual playtesting, not 30 pages of theorymoning back and forth. Someone suggested actual stats for top users, I think that's a big starting point.

This is perhaps the worst example of cherrypicking I've ever seen. Jukain is one of many members of this forum to post in favor of a Baton Pass nerf, and he (as well as many others) has made many posts in this thread explaining why he thinks Baton Pass is a problem, as well as addressing various countermeasures that have been brought up by the anti-nerf side. So you come along and find one little comment where he says that he doesn't want to deal with it and then act like his whole argument hinges on that opinion alone. You don't consider why he doesn't want to deal with it. You don't consider why he or anyone else finds Baton Pass to be a problem. You don't consider the counterarguments that have been made many times against the various alleged countermeasures to Baton Pass that have been brought up in this thread. Heck, you even make the ridiculous assumption that this is all theorymonning, as if no one has ever played against Baton Pass before. Instead of actually debating arguments, you just dismiss the whole thing as "You just don't want to deal with it."

On another side note, could people please stop saying things like, "People just want Baton Pass banned/nerfed because they don't like it," and statements along those lines? This is not an argument. All it is is an attempt to mischaracterize the other side in order to make it seem as though their argument is invalid and built on nothing but empty bias (in other words, it's complete ad hominem). There have been multiple arguments and reasons laid out in this thread and others about why people want it banned or nerfed. If you want to argue against those points, then fine, but stop trying to assign intentions to the other side. Saying, "You just want to nerf Baton Pass because you don't like it," is no more valid than me saying, "You just want to keep Baton Pass because you're too skill-less to use anything else."

Needless to say, I'm reposting this because for some reason there are still people that think this is a good argument.

 

[WebBowser]

Agent Gibbs First off, thank you for taking the time to explain all of that. However, I still believe that there has been a lack of research into counters for BP and that this research is needed in order to make an informed decision on whether or not BP is something that needs a nerf. Can you (or anyone really) get me in contact with a BP player who actually knows what they are doing so that I can conduct legitimate research on this? Apparently BP is not so brainless that I can just find some random shmuck on PS and ask him to fight me with a BP team (sorry solosislover, I still appreciate what you did). At the moment, I am simply unconvinced and I would like to remedy that.

And yes, I am volunteering to play against BP, repeatedly, because everyone else apparently finds this sort of team completely unfun to play against (not gonna argue that one). I want to figure out if there exists a way to counter BP teams without putting undue stress on teambuilding. I feel that if I can find such a way, the anti-ban arguments would be strengthened and we would have a more productive suspect test. If I have any reading comprehension at all, BP teams are considered harmful to the meta due to the lack of counterplay available to the opponent and the lack of teambuilding options to work around it as opposed to the ability to hax past legitimate counterplay options (ie: evasion, swagplay). I think that the latter could potentially be alleviated if someone bothered to do some research into possible counters and checks to a BP team (I haven't even started looking at potential cores, and I still have good hopes for magnezone). And if I can figure out any sort of common pattern between multiple checks / counters, then maybe I can address the former as well.

TL;DR All I want is a BP player who actually knows what they are doing who is willing to spend some time letting me try some random stuff with him. Please PM me or find me on PS or something so we can meet up.

 

[Jukain]

It's only a problem because most of the people against it aren't willing to deal with it (his post was a clear, literal quote of this). So, before calling it a "problem" there should be more research, and by that I mean actual playtesting, not 30 pages of theorymoning back and forth. Someone suggested actual stats for top users, I think that's a big starting point.

http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-03/oususpecttest-1760.0.txt

These are the 1760 stats for the SwagPlay OU Suspect Test, and the most competitive stats we have. You can clearly see all of the common BP suspects in OU, besides Mime which is very close. So BP is used commonly among good players for sure.

http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-03/moveset/oususpecttest-1760.0.txt

Here you can see the moveset stats for this ladder proving that the BP movesets were actually commonly used.

Agent Gibbs First off, thank you for taking the time to explain all of that. However, I still believe that there has been a lack of research into counters for BP and that this research is needed in order to make an informed decision on whether or not BP is something that needs a nerf. Can you (or anyone really) get me in contact with a BP player who actually knows what they are doing so that I can conduct legitimate research on this? Apparently BP is not so brainless that I can just find some random shmuck on PS and ask him to fight me with a BP team (sorry solosislover, I still appreciate what you did). At the moment, I am simply unconvinced and I would like to remedy that.

And yes, I am volunteering to play against BP, repeatedly, because everyone else apparently finds this sort of team completely unfun to play against (not gonna argue that one). I want to figure out if there exists a way to counter BP teams without putting undue stress on teambuilding. I feel that if I can find such a way, the anti-ban arguments would be strengthened and we would have a more productive suspect test. If I have any reading comprehension at all, BP teams are considered harmful to the meta due to the lack of counterplay available to the opponent and the lack of teambuilding options to work around it as opposed to the ability to hax past legitimate counterplay options (ie: evasion, swagplay). I think that the latter could potentially be alleviated if someone bothered to do some research into possible counters and checks to a BP team (I haven't even started looking at potential cores, and I still have good hopes for magnezone). And if I can figure out any sort of common pattern between multiple checks / counters, then maybe I can address the former as well.

TL;DR All I want is a BP player who actually knows what they are doing who is willing to spend some time letting me try some random stuff with him. Please PM me or find me on PS or something so we can meet up.

Searching for obscure counters doesn't actually make a difference. The fact is that BP is entirely impossible to deal with sans obscure counters is the reason there's such a big issue with it. If there was non-obscure stuff we could use, people would already be using it and BP would suck.

 

[Deluks917]

All of the important BP pokemon (I am comsidering at least espeon/scoliopede to be important) have competitive uses outside full BP teams. So pokemon bans would hurt non-BP strategies as well. Or they would fail to actually solve the problem.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Keeping a playstyle alive should never be a reason to keep something
At best nothing of value was lost at worst we get BW V2

Baton Pass is not going to be the next rain. With a few, rather obvious changes, it can be inserted into the metagame both balanced, and viable (though probably not popular). Rain, specifically Drizzle, simply had no way to be balanced outside of changing game mechanics (thank you Game Freak, you did something right this gen!).

I don't know how you can claim that this isn't a problem (I'd like to see some evidence for that), but suggest this could become as big of a problem as rain did last gen. Agent Gibbs blew your claim out of the water, but I'll add that I've been testing every proposed ban. Not allowing Scolipede or Espeon on BP makes them easily manageable, while a limit of 2 completely kills it. Going out of our way to preserve a playing style is definitely not a good idea, but who wouldn't go around a squirrel (because without the broken element, BP is only as significant as a common rodent) if it's in the road?

All of the important BP pokemon (I am comsidering at least espeon/scoliopede to be important) have competitive uses outside full BP teams. So pokemon bans would hurt non-BP strategies as well. Or they would fail to actually solve the problem.

This is the wrong mentality. I'm going to sound hypocritical here, but complex bans aren't made just to preserve other pokemon's sets. If we don't ban Scolipede or Espeon, it'll be because we don't consider them the root of the problem, not because of their other sets.

 

[BigDaddy]

http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-03/oususpecttest-1760.0.txt

These are the 1760 stats for the SwagPlay OU Suspect Test, and the most competitive stats we have. You can clearly see all of the common BP suspects in OU, besides Mime which is very close. So BP is used commonly among good players for sure.

http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-03/moveset/oususpecttest-1760.0.txt

Here you can see the moveset stats for this ladder proving that the BP movesets were actually commonly used.

Searching for obscure counters doesn't actually make a difference. The fact is that BP is entirely impossible to deal with sans obscure counters is the reason there's such a big issue with it. If there was non-obscure stuff we could use, people would already be using it and BP would suck.

thanks for the links. I looked up Scolipede (apparent lead for dedicated BP teams) and its usage is less than 5% among the top players. Is that considered high enough to be considered an "abusable" strat? I'm genuinely asking this since I haven't spent much time looking up monthly stats (at least not for OU)

 

[Jukain]

Baton Pass is not going to be the next rain. With a few, rather obvious changes, it can be inserted into the metagame both balanced, and viable (though probably not popular). Rain, specifically Drizzle, simply had no way to be balanced outside of changing game mechanics (thank you Game Freak, you did something right this gen!).

I don't know how you can claim that this isn't a problem (I'd like to see some evidence for that), but suggest this could become as big of a problem as rain did last gen. Agent Gibbs blew your claim out of the water, but I'll add that I've been testing every proposed ban. Not allowing Scolipede or Espeon on BP makes them easily manageable, while a limit of 2 completely kills it. Going out of our way to preserve a playing style is definitely not a good idea, but who wouldn't go around a squirrel (because without the broken element, BP is only as significant as a common rodent) if it's in the road?


This is the wrong mentality. I'm going to sound hypocritical here, but complex bans aren't made just to preserve other pokemon's sets. If we don't ban Scolipede or Espeon, it'll be because we don't consider them the root of the problem, not because of their other sets.

Here is the deal: if we kill Baton Pass chains, nothing of value is lost, and we've prevented any further issues. We're not banning individual Pokemon here because they have legitimate uses outside of BP, and no individual member of the chain can be isolated as the problem. It is the interactions of the Pokemon in the chain that is broken, and that is why the chain should be restricted.

Oh and for fun (our supposed BP counters that haven't already been refuted):
[replay]frost-ou-364719[/replay]
Failure of the Mega Gyarados: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-ou-364809
Failure of the alexwolf Specs Gengar (lol): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-ou-364946
Random replay where BP beats NP Thundurus: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-110195538
CM Lando loses because Roar Vaporeon, Spore Smeargle, and potential Roar Zapdos.
Murkrow just gets boned by Sylveon Hyper Voice/Espeon DG and the chain restarts.

 

[QR7]

I'm with Scarfed Raptor.

I think we should not ban the move Baton Pass or any single pokemon. I think we have two options:

1. Ban certain combos, such as no Magic Bounce + Baton Pass Espeon, Baton Pass Smeargle, etc. However, I believe this would do nothing but un-diversify the metagame and make no real difference. Also, it overcomplicates things for Wi-Fi battlers.

2. This is our best option in my opinion, and that is limiting Baton Pass to 2 Pokemon per team. This way, you really only get 2 'mons to set up a sweep. The best one can do with this set up in my opinion is Shell Smash Smeargle → Something to boost one of the defenses → Sweeper. This way, the sweeper is still vulnerable to that one defense stat gone unboosted - ensuring it cannot shred through teams with ease.

 

[Lady Vader]

From the various recommendations, I think the best are:
Ban Baton Pass Espeon + Baton Pass Scolipede on the same team.
Limit the number of Baton Passers on the same team (2-4 Pokémon per team)

I personally would prefer stopping both Espeon and Scolipede on the same team. This is just precise enough to nerf the team without completely destroying it, allowing for the maximum variety in team building, which is one of the two main goals of anyone making a fair, competitive environment (the other is giving a boot to anything incredibly overpowered).

 

[Hegemoth]

Even nerfing max number of BP users per team by 2 to 4 leaves BP team open something - Scolipede, Smeargle, Vaporeon, Espeon/Sylveon is managable by large extent. As well as usage is concerned, I agree it's up there used by the best (I'm not strictly that top tier 8th on the suspect last time but have seen tonloads of BP). Slight nerf wouldn't kill it wouldn't it?

 

[Latiax]

Okay so there is way too much to read through at this point, so if someone could make a post that summarizes the good points people have made so far that would be great (or let me know about one that already did so).

I'd like to note before I give any of my thoughts regarding the metagame that I dislike Baton Pass as an archetype and feel that it takes minimal skill to play compared to any other team type. I'd also like to note that everything I am saying is my opinion and understand some of my statements may not be correct but I will try and back them up.

So lets look at how a metagame should develop (this is assuming the pokemon/strategy in question is able to be countered):
-A pokemon or strategy starts to become dominant, either because its strong or because the current meta can't handle it
-This pokemon's or archetype's popularity starts to increase
-People notice that a certain pokemon or archetype is becoming more common and that they aren't really prepared for it
-New pokemon or strategies get thought up that are able to beat this other pokemon or archetype
-The new pokemon or strategy start to become popular
-Because the new pokemon or strategy is beating the current meta and becoming popular it's started to be viewed as dominant
-The cycle repeats its self

Baton pass is not a problem for the development of the metagame, it might actually be helping it since it seems to fit in perfectly to that cycle (and I've seen quite a few counters for baton pass start to become popular). The only problem I could see for the metagame from baton pass is the lack of skill required to play it successfully, but that is usually the way it works for a dominant strategy in a metagame baton pass just seems to be an extreme case. I think more of the problem lies in the majority of the community not wanting to accept that they have to play a certain way or use certain pokemon to be beat baton pass.

Please note that the argument "I shouldn't have to use a specific pokemon to beat baton pass" is invalid for the same reason saying "I shouldn't have to use a wallbreaker/stallbreaker to beat stall teams" is, and there are plenty of pokemon to beat baton pass; countering a strategy/archetype is different than countering a specific pokemon.

Even though I don't think it's bad for the developing metagame I will contribute to the other portions of the discussion:
I think what's making baton pass so good right now is magic bounce + baton pass and speed boost + baton pass, which are also what I would suggest banning to stop baton pass from being as easy to play as it is right now. I think banning specific pokemon makes no sense because they can be used outside of baton pass and banning baton pass as a move is just too much. Complex bans can be tricky but what I suggested is no more complex than bans done in the past.

I hope this offers some insight and lets people get a view from the probably less popular side of the argument.

 

[aVocado]

I don't understand the people who say that we shouldn't nerf BP because it would be ruining an entire playstyle; so what? BP is largely uncompetitive and that's a known fact among many players, and nerfing it really is the best way to solve it. If it's causing problems, it deserves to be nerfed and dealt with properly.

Limiting BP to 2 or 3 Pokemon per team seems like the right thing to do. You still have enough space for quick-passing like QD venomoth and shellpassing smeargle/gorebyss, and dry-passing like espeon or celebi fleeing from a pursuit. It still allows BP, but not full, ridiculous, unbreakable chains. A solution that works for the best, really.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Here is the deal: if we kill Baton Pass chains, nothing of value is lost, and we've prevented any further issues. We're not banning individual Pokemon here because they have legitimate uses outside of BP, and no individual member of the chain can be isolated as the problem. It is the interactions of the Pokemon in the chain that is broken, and that is why the chain should be restricted.

And I'm claiming that Scolipede's automatic speed passes are the root of the uncounterable (please don't cherry pick that one word all you anti banners), because without automatically outspeeding taunts, attacks (so that they can't put up iron defense or calm mind to decrease the damage and survive hits), or completely own the late game sweep, that can be isolated as at least one of the key problems that can be fixed. I agree that BP should be restricted, but the ban your advocating still feels a bit much for me, and I just don't feel that baton pass chains are inherently bad for the metagame.

I don't understand the people who say that we shouldn't nerf BP because it would be ruining an entire playstyle; so what? BP is largely uncompetitive and that's a known fact among many players, and nerfing it really is the best way to solve it. If it's causing problems, it deserves to be nerfed and dealt with properly.

Limiting BP to 2 or 3 Pokemon per team seems like the right thing to do. You still have enough space for quick-passing like QD venomoth and shellpassing smeargle/gorebyss, and dry-passing like espeon or celebi fleeing from a pursuit. It still allows BP, but not full, ridiculous, unbreakable chains. A solution that works for the best, really.

Trying to get a decent baton pass chain using only agility for speed is rather difficult. It requires you to to decently understand your opponent and calling it uncompetitive gives it too much credit. Just saying, I've never had a problem with this without people being able to outspeed me every time.

 

[WebBowser]

Jukain Who said anything about searching for obscure counters? Perhaps it is not merely a single pokemon that gives BP trouble (probable), perhaps it is a combination of two or maybe three mons. As for why people haven't found this combination yet, competitive teams have to prepare for a great number of threats, and I don't know many people who put more thought in preparing for BP beyond "pack a phaser" (granted, I don't know that many people). It is entirely possible that this combination of mons has not been found yet, and none of the arguments on this thread have convinced me that such a combination does not exist and/or is unviable in the OU metagame. I do not think any sort of serious effort has been put forward into specifically countering BP teams, which is why I am offering to put in that effort (If I am wrong, feel free to try to convince me, but I would prefer to save everyone the effort and convince myself).

 

[Blizzardhail]

I have read all the comments and I agree with Jukian. Baton Pass is a skill less kind of play. I taught my sister how to use it as a test and she's at the 1700s now. In three days. Her record is flawless. By just teaching her how to deal with certain threats to Baton Pass and how to deal with them, this happened. She's a complete beginner . Therefore, I support the ban all but 3 mons havering Baton Pass on the same team rule.




And to summarise what was going on since the start
1) Protesting
2). Some still protesting but some accepted the claim to nerf it
3) Argument between pro-banners and anti-banners
4) Search for counters
5) Acceptance that it is overpowered.
6) Search for best way to nerf it(Now)
These are the stages of what happened

 

[Seven Lions]

Usually what I just do on my offensive teams (which use Mega Zard X 99% of the time) is just DD alongside Scoliopede. At +3 or so, it's pretty hard for BP chains to deal with the sheer power of Zard X.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

I realize I'm in the minority now, and I understand where pro-ban BP teams come from, but in WebBowser 's post especially (or at least most recently), people are claiming Baton Pass is worthy of a ban solely from it's uncompetitive nature in the current meta game. It wasn't uncompetitive before, just unviable. It now has all the pieces it needs to be some piece of shit that people can abuse, but I firmly believe the answer is to take away the tools, not destroy it outright.

Back to the cancer/infection metaphor that's been used a couple times. This isn't cancer. It's not even an infection as in bacteria or a virus. It's a snake bite, and we don't need to cut of somebody's foot (Baton Pass teams) when we have the antidote (a ban) to the venom (BP Scolipede, BP Espeon, a combination? Whatever you think it is.)

 

[Shurtugal]

Scolipede does not make Baton Pass broken or anything -- it doesn't even... anything. Ninjask was perfectly fine in BW1 and in BW2. Ninjask might be Talonflame weak, but a flying-resist berry could patch that up (yes, you can't run Mental Herb this way, but the fact that Ninjask can run Mental Herb alone will be an intimidation factor in and of itself. Plus you could always just run Agility Zapdos, etc., etc.). If we're going to cap Baton Pass, BP + Speed Boost will fix nothing, especially since Agility is perfectly legitimate.

That said, Baton Pass is used, like, 1% of the time, and only 1% of that 1% actually use it well (aka like 0.0001% players use Baton Pass teams well, assuming I did that math right). Seriously. One user put it perfectly for me today: baton pass is a gimmick. It isn't the metagame.

Why are we treating Baton Pass like it actually exists? There aren't many players that use it. DeoSharp and VenusaurStall, etc., etc., are much more commonly seen. Baton Pass isn't the metagame. There is no need to "do" anything about it. It's not broken. Hell, it isn't even used. (Not! Even! In! SPL!) Let's do something productive with our suspecting, please.

EDIT: I'm well aware that it's viable. Don't mice my words. Deniss has been using Baton Pass since BW1 and it hasn't been suspected that's not an argument. In BW2, Venomoth Pass got easy 1500s by some user, another user peaked page 1 with Cofag TR, just becaue it's used on the ladder well doesn't mean shit. This suspect is still not productive in the least. Also, one user used it in SPL. Count the teams with top tier threats and I guarantee you'll find 99.99% of every other team isn't BP, but I bet half of the teams used on SPL are similar to one another. Didn't Lady Bug also use all NU mons or something? Does that mean we should ban NU mons --
"it proves their viable"? Stop with the bullshit please.

And now with the introduction of this thread there are so many BP chains so it now has basically transformed into the meta.

No, just no. It has not transformed the meta in the slightest what are you talking about.

And also, iirc, 3 out of the top 5 ladder players were using Baton Pass only a few weeks ago, so you can't say that it doesn't exist when top ladder players are battling it constantly.

I'm sorry, 3 out of 5 ladder players? I'm sure there are plenty of ladder players on PO / PS. Don't you mean, 3 ladder players out of 999999999999999999999999 ladder players? Do you mean 3 / 5 "good" ladder players, because I'm sure there are more than 5 good ladder players. (I'm sure you have a point somewhere, but it's not really clear right now . . .) Also, top players aren't using it "consistently" and no where near the level of things like DeoSharp and VenuStall stop overexaggurating. What happened was 3 other players besides Deniss decided to use Baton Pass for a little while and it's anti-meta so ofcourse it did well on the ladder.

(Also, I play on PO. I'm like 1600s there so I p. sure I know what "top ladder players" are using, thank you very much to the user who quotes me on the next page.)