Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[Flamer]

You are correct. Simply using Roar or Haze or any other move does not guarantee a win against Baton Pass teams. But what makes a Baton Pass team so dangerous? The ability to pass stat boosts from one Pokemon to another while accumulating more, gradually working up to become damn near impossible to KO.

However, if you disrupt the Baton Pass chain, if you force your opponent to reset and start building his boosts again, or better yet, don't allow them to build up in the first place by applying pressure from turn 1, then you are at an advantage. Granted, I completely agree that this is not a game-winning advantage. But you can wear the Baton Pass team down if you can negate what gives them an advantage- the passing of multiple stat boosts. Please keep this is mind during any eventual suspect testing.

The thing is you cannot stop them if that mon is gone (All MB Roarers loses almost embarassingly quickly to Sylveon), this means you'll have to run multiple obscure counters to a single playstyle, which isn't even a playstyle, doesn't that worry you a bit?

Hiphiphooray
Dude, my eyes are permanently stuck rolled back, BECAUSE YOU STILL HAVEN'T GIVEN US ANY REPLAYS!

We're discussing things that almost all the top players agree on, and then you come in and make us explain things that even I understood pretty instantly. Since the people that matter most as far as smogon is concerned (see the switch to 1760 stats discussion) are the ones who picked on BP's terrible potential effect (and current effect) on the meta, you're the one who needs to give proof.

You've been at this for 12 pages, and all you've succeeded in doing is making this baton pass business even more miserable than it has to be. Until I see replays, I'm going to assume you haven't been on the ladder (I looked up Hiphiphooray, and it has an ELO of exactly 1000, so I desperately hope that's not you), so I'll let you in on a secret, EVERYBODY HATES BATON PASS! Forget all that pointless discussion about auto-losses and counters and crap, if something makes the game less fun to play, why would we keep it. This is our meta game, our rules, and our time that we're devoting to it, so I don't think we really should need a reason to ban it.

Now I can imagine the response I'll get for that, but I really don't have much to add besides, nobody (intelligent) claims BP has no counters, it just has so few OU viable counters, that people won't consider limiting their team building options just to take care of BP. This allows poor players to rank rather easily, which is of course unacceptable. But now, thanks to this thread and the general attention BP has gotten, more people are using it, and more people are forced to use counters, or teams less susceptible to BP, and they're losing to people who are equal skill level, but haven't compromised their team for BP. A metagame that is decided less by decisions you make and more by the lucky match up* sounds terrible.

*note, I'm not trying to suggest that it's an auto loss, just significantly less competitive than the accepted meta game.

This is the fundamental of what happens after consistently being forced to rebuke what, in reality, is a very simple concept. Baton Pass is the definition of uncompetitive, almost in the same vein as Swagplay. It applies a feeling of helplessness because it not only requires NO skill to utilise, but gives no opportunity to turn match around, hence why most BP battles end in forfeits rather than wins/losses. The only reasons that have been made by the no-ban side have said "the metagame has to adapt" or "Just because its counters are unviable now, don't they become viable if people use them?". Although I expected this to happen, this thread has just degenerated into a cesspool because users of a particular "strategy" don't want to lose what gives them wins without requiring effort (I'm talking about BP users, in case there's any confusion) and are willing to spit out anything that has the smallest chance of changing peoples opinions, very similar to the Mega-Luke discussion.

I really think this thread needs to be moved to VR. Even though it means I don't get a say, it stops people who clearly are grasping at straws from bringing down the IQ of everyone else in this forum.

 

[vox_amoris]

The thing is you cannot stop them if that mon is gone (All MB Roarers loses almost embarassingly quickly to Sylveon), this means you'll have to run multiple obscure counters to a single playstyle, which isn't even a playstyle, doesn't that worry you a bit?

Again, what you say is correct. :) You cannot stop a Baton Pass chain if you lose your Hazer or whatever move you are running to disrupt it. But in this case, doesn't that make your Hazer a win condition? As in, you must keep it alive to have a chance to win? Win conditions exist in most matchups, so why is this one unique? What makes this different from having to KO your opponent's Blissey so that you can sweep with your strong Special Attacker?

 

[deepbluejeer]

Again, what you say is correct. :) You cannot stop a Baton Pass chain if you lose your Hazer or whatever move you are running to disrupt it. But in this case, doesn't that make your Hazer a win condition? As in, you must keep it alive to have a chance to win? Win conditions exist in most matchups, so why is this one unique? What makes this different from having to KO your opponent's Blissey so that you can sweep with your strong Special Attacker?

Haze isn't a win condition, it's a temporary stop. Even if you manage to keep your Haze user alive, you're asking one Pokemon to take on six members of a team all at once, which is too much of a strain on teambuilding, i.e., overcentralizing. In your signature you list down a bunch of Pokemon that can learn Haze, but realistically, how many of those actually have the room for Haze in their moveset? Only Quagsire does, and maybe Milotic or Vaporeon. Don't you see what's wrong with that? By running Haze, you forcing these Pokemon to run sub-optimal movesets specialized for "countering" Baton Pass, just for countering Baton Pass. I think that's what people are arguing against.

Just to clarify, I've been lurking this thread for a while now. I'm still weighing the arguments of all the sides, but I'm leaning towards limiting the number of Baton Pass users, as suggested by many of the posters in this thread.

 

[Flamer]

Again, what you say is correct. :) You cannot stop a Baton Pass chain if you lose your Hazer or whatever move you are running to disrupt it. But in this case, doesn't that make your Hazer a win condition? As in, you must keep it alive to have a chance to win? Win conditions exist in most matchups, so why is this one unique? What makes this different from having to KO your opponent's Blissey so that you can sweep with your strong Special Attacker?

Because BP gives momentum to the BP user in any scenario, you cannot switch in your "win condition" (which doesn't win by the normal definition) on a possible BP because they can go into the appropriate mon and KO you. Also, like the above poster said, you're asking one pokemon to beat all six of the opponents with a move that does not wear them down, does not cripple them, but instead just prolongs a long and aggravating match.

 

[branflakes]

I agree with deepbluejeer

One of the biggest issues about tailoring teams to deal with Baton Pass is that having one "counter" is not nearly enough. Common threats to Baton Pass including Thundurus, Mega Pinsir, Talonflame and Sableye can be handled on their own if the BP user begins the chain cautiously. For any sort of stall or balanced team to have anything close to a favorable matchup against Baton Pass, they need to exert a LOT of pressure by having multiple team members that threaten Baton Pass in its first turns of setup. Admittedly, Baton Pass has trouble against some of the standard hyper offensive teams because they ALL carry Thundurus-I and a number of setup sweepers to compliment Thundurus by punishing any bad predictions.

On the other hand, nearly every other team archetype has significantly more work to do in terms of preparing for Baton Pass. Stall has very few options other than Unaware Haze Quagsire, which is otherwise redundant and stupid (and not even 100% effective in countering BP), Taunt Sableye, and a slew of obscure counters that I don't feel like naming. Simply put, any team that is not full offense will have tremendous issues exerting enough pressure to have a chance of breaking a Baton Pass chain without getting a well-timed critical hit or using multiple counters. Haze Quagsire is not enough.

Baton Pass has one of the most over-centralizing impacts on the metagame for a strategy that used to be rarely seen. The demand for reliable checks is way too high, and the strategy is so completely different from anything else that the counter-strategies end up being near-useless outside of being mere counter-strategies. Thundurus-I is the biggest exception being very useful regardless, but I'm getting damn tired of seeing Thundurus-I being slapped on every team the same way Rotom-W was a few months ago. Thundurus-I is practically a necessity in all offensive teams, which obviously limits team building. Furthermore, it is evident that something is overcentralizing when I can freely switch in my unevolved Mega Manectric on any Thundurus-I without fearing Focus Blast. Because nobody seems to use Focus Blast on Thundurus anymore. Because of Baton Pass.

 

[preserve]

Okay, I want to address mega pinsir. Let's say you both have pinsir and your opponent has scolipede out. You go for swords dance on your mega pinsir and your opponent goes for subsititute. You just gave your opponent a free sub, speed boost, and they will get a iron defense boost since they are faster. In this scenerio, the baton passer is at an advantage because they can just baton pass out to something like vaporeon and just roar you out or smeargle and spore you, not fearing an attack because they will have a sub up and your one chance to counter their baton pass team just dropped down drastically.

There are obviously many different outcomes that can come out from this scenario. The best one being that you swords dance on their protect first turn. But because of scolipede's ability to get so many boosts up at the same time, a compentent baton pass player will be at an advantage most of the time. Mega pinsir does put a lot of pressure on baton pass team, but it doesn't always reliably get the job done.

Of course the safest move for the baton pass player is not to lead with scolipede if they see a mega pinsir on their opponents team.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

Kairyu_Gen1, woah man, no need to be so aggressive. :( I am in complete agreement with you for the most part. I was simply trying to get a point across the number of people in this thread suck on the

pointless discussion about auto-losses and counters and crap

. Clearly there are ways to deal with Baton Pass and that's not the real issue. I've been trying to push that point across and direct the debate in a more reasonable direction...

Building off what you said,

nobody (intelligent) claims BP has no counters, it just has so few OU viable counters, that people won't consider limiting their team building options just to take care of BP.

I think losing 5% of your games because you have no answer to Baton Pass is acceptable. No team should have an answer for everything, just like Baton Pass has its weaknesses. Players should strive to make creative teams that are able to have reliable ways to beat everything. Some matchups will be hard, other easy, but that's the way I enjoy the meta. Should one style of play become more prevalent, we should centralize our teams around that, until the meta shifts again. Not rock paper scissors, but rewarding to the underused styles of play.

I know many people will disagree with that based on the level of centralizing that is necessary to defeat Baton Pass in particular. Hopefully suspect tests will reveal this to us.

 

[vox_amoris]

Haze isn't a win condition, it's a temporary stop. Even if you manage to keep your Haze user alive, you're asking one Pokemon to take on six members of a team all at once, which is too much of a strain on teambuilding, i.e., overcentralizing. In your signature you list down a bunch of Pokemon that can learn Haze, but realistically, how many of those actually have the room for Haze in their moveset? Only Quagsire does, and maybe Milotic or Vaporeon. Don't you see what's wrong with that? By running Haze, you forcing these Pokemon to run sub-optimal movesets specialized for "countering" Baton Pass, just for countering Baton Pass. I think that's what people are arguing against.

Just to clarify, I've been lurking this thread for a while now. I'm still weighing the arguments of all the sides, but I'm leaning towards limiting the number of Baton Pass users, as suggested by many of the posters in this thread.

I wasn't trying to imply that if your Hazer is your last Pokemon you can win... If you can disrupt the chain, the individual pieces of the chain can be checked or countered as individuals. This shouldn't require any strain on teambuilding because it has been made clear that none of the Baton Pass users are gamebreaking by themselves, just when they are freely passing stat boosts to each other.

Since Team Preview lets you know you will be facing a Baton Pass team from the get go, lead with your Hazer so that they cannot even begin to setup. Cofagrigus is great because of its natural bulk and a Sleep Talk/Rest/Haze/Knock Off set could even face down Spore Smeargle. Please don't just repeat the "it's not viable" argument. Is it standard? No. But you choose a Pokemon for your team to do a job for the team. If it can accomplish that job, then it is viable.

Any of the bulky waters in my sig could easily run Haze without a "sub-optimal moveset." Blastoise could replace Rapid Spin or Foresight. Milotic can run it as an alternative to Dragon Tail. Vaporeon could replace Roar. Chandelure could run it on a Sub set with Fire Blast and Shadow Ball. Cofagrigus and Dusclops could replace a move for it, since they are meant to be walls anyway. Infiltrator Crobat can replace Taunt and use Base 130 speed to get it off without being hit. Dragonite has Multiscale and massive base attack, so you could fit Haze onto a defensive tank set or even the Parashuffle set if you had to.

 

[deepbluejeer]

I wasn't trying to imply that if your Hazer is your last Pokemon you can win...

I wasn't implying this either.

If you can disrupt the chain, the individual pieces of the chain can be checked or countered as individuals. This shouldn't require any strain on teambuilding because it has been made clear that none of the Baton Pass users are gamebreaking by themselves, just when they are freely passing stat boosts to each other.

I think the problem is how exactly are you going to counter them as individuals? No other team archetype is so reliant on team play than Baton Pass, to the point that countering just one individual is an uphill battle. Baton Pass chains are so good at preserving momentum that you might as well be fighting all six Pokemon at once, which goes back to the strain in teambuilding argument.

Since Team Preview lets you know you will be facing a Baton Pass team from the get go, lead with your Hazer so that they cannot even begin to setup. Cofagrigus is great because of its natural bulk and a Sleep Talk/Rest/Haze/Knock Off set could even face down Spore Smeargle. Please don't just repeat the "it's not viable" argument. Is it standard? No. But you choose a Pokemon for your team to do a job for the team. If it can accomplish that job, then it is viable.

The viability argument is there to assess whether a set is not dead weight against non-BP teams. Have you playtested this Cofagrigus set? It looks like a decent counter for BP, but what else are you threatening with that?

Any of the bulky waters in my sig could easily run Haze without a "sub-optimal moveset." Blastoise could replace Rapid Spin or Foresight. Milotic can run it as an alternative to Dragon Tail. Vaporeon could replace Roar. Chandelure could run it on a Sub set with Fire Blast and Shadow Ball. Cofagrigus and Dusclops could replace a move for it, since they are meant to be walls anyway. Infiltrator Crobat can replace Taunt and use Base 130 speed to get it off without being hit. Dragonite has Multiscale and massive base attack, so you could fit Haze onto a defensive tank set or even the Parashuffle set if you had to.

Blastoise could replace Rapid Spin or Foresight.

This is where I question whether you even have experience with these Pokemon. The entire reason you use Blastoise in OU is Rapid Spin, so why exactly are you giving up such a useful niche just for Haze? Think of the opportunity cost. Dusclops is already dead weight enough as it is, so why bother? I'll give you Milotic and Vaporeon, which I already mentioned in my previous post. However, all of these counters are theorymon, so I'm afraid the burden of proof is on you to test whether these are actually viable outside of countering Baton Pass teams. If they are not, then they should not even be considered.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

The entire reason you use Blastoise in OU is Rapid Spin

Not anymore! Baton Pass is running rampant and entry hazard are pointless now with Espeon as the #1 used Pokemon! hahaha

 

[Flamer]

Kairyu_Gen1, woah man, no need to be so aggressive. :( I am in complete agreement with you for the most part. I was simply trying to get a point across the number of people in this thread suck on the
. Clearly there are ways to deal with Baton Pass and that's not the real issue. I've been trying to push that point across and direct the debate in a more reasonable direction...

Building off what you said,

I think losing 5% of your games because you have no answer to Baton Pass is acceptable. No team should have an answer for everything, just like Baton Pass has its weaknesses. Players should strive to make creative teams that are able to have reliable ways to beat everything. Some matchups will be hard, other easy, but that's the way I enjoy the meta. Should one style of play become more prevalent, we should centralize our teams around that, until the meta shifts again. Not rock paper scissors, but rewarding to the underused styles of play.

I know many people will disagree with that based on the level of centralizing that is necessary to defeat Baton Pass in particular. Hopefully suspect tests will reveal this to us.

No, having a guaranteed loss against anything because it requires most of your team te be dedicated to taking it down is not acceptable, you just don't seem to understand. To a certain extent I agree that matchups will be of varying difficulties depending on your team, but BP necessitates that you make yourself weak to all other team archetypes in order to even have a chance against it. This is unreasonable and, contrary to what you have preached for 10+ pages, does not inspire creativity in the metagame and in teambuilding.

 

[deepbluejeer]

Not anymore! Baton Pass is running rampant and entry hazard are pointless now with Espeon as the #1 used Pokemon! hahaha

Then we go back to the overcentralizing argument. Honestly this is getting kind of circular. I see the merit in your position that we should let the metagame develop, but I believe this thread exists to address the fact that the projected development of the metagame is undesirable, if we let the trend continue, and we are looking for solutions before the problem gets out of hand.

 

[vox_amoris]

I wasn't implying this either.

My apologies. I misunderstood.

The viability argument is there to assess whether a set is not dead weight against non-BP teams. Have you playtested this Cofagrigus set? It looks like a decent counter for BP, but what else are you threatening with that?

Cofagrigus is naturally a defensive wall, has the nice immunities to Normal and Fighting type moves, and with Knock Off and the ability to absorb status, it would not be dead weight beyond Hazing Baton Pass. No, I have not playtested it against Baton Pass. I am nowhere near the top of the ladder where the main issue with Baton Pass is said to be, and any battles I have against the people I would match against would not provide worthwhile evidence. ~Don't you dare say that this makes me unqualified to debate this. This forum is open to everyone because any ban or nerf would affect everyone on the ladder, not just the top rated players.

This is where I question whether you even have experience with these Pokemon. The entire reason you use Blastoise in OU is Rapid Spin, so why exactly are you giving up such a useful niche just for Haze? Think of the opportunity cost. Dusclops is already dead weight enough as it is, so why bother? I'll give you Milotic and Vaporeon, which I already mentioned in my previous post. However, all of these counters are theorymon, so I'm afraid the burden of proof is on you to test whether these are actually viable outside of countering Baton Pass teams. If they are not, then they should not even be considered.

As far as saying Rapid Spin is the only reason to use Blastoise in OU, that is simply untrue. Mega Blastoise with Scald/Water STAB, Dark Pulse, Aura Sphere, and Haze replacing Rapid Spin is not sub-optimal as it retains great coverage and power and would still be a major offensive threat in its own right.

 

[rachet67]

Cofagrigus is naturally a defensive wall, has the nice immunities to Normal and Fighting type moves, and with Knock Off and the ability to absorb status, it would not be dead weight beyond Hazing Baton Pass. No, I have not playtested it against Baton Pass. I am nowhere near the top of the ladder where the main issue with Baton Pass is said to be, and any battles I have against the people I would match against would not provide worthwhile evidence. ~Don't you dare say that this makes me unqualified to debate this. This forum is open to everyone because any ban or nerf would affect everyone on the ladder, not just the top rated players.

Actually, straight from the OP:

Closing notes: I decided to post this thread in the general OU forum and not in Victory Road to give everyone the possibility to voice their opinion but, before posting it this thread, keep in mind that:

1. We're going to enforce a zero-tolerance policy for any form of trolling/flaming. Users who will attempt to troll this thread will be immediately banned without any prior warning (this applies specifically to newly registered accounts);
2. If you have no knowledge (or next to no knowledge) of the game at high level of play (be it the top of the ladder of official tournaments) then you're not supposed to post in this thread. I don't want to see one-liners or uninformed posts;
3. You're required to make civil posts and accept criticism from those who disagree with you;
4. You're absolutely not allowed to discuss or question the tiering process and its current implementation.

Basically, if you're going to comment on BP, and suggest the supposed counters you're naming, you should have at least some experience with BP on the ladder, as well as with these so called counters. If you had tested them, you might have realized how terrible a mon like substitute/haze Chandelure is.

 

[Dope Boi Magic]

Since its clear that most of smogon refuses to try to adapt to baton pass being a major part of the meta game, I am here to suggest a way to nerf baton pass without making it entirely unviable.

What if the combination of stored power and baton pass in the same moveset were banned? Stored power on espeon is amazingly deadly even without any cm boosts. With only speed and defense boosts espeon can 1HKO or 2HKO many Pokemon that don't resist psychic. This allows espeon to eliminate some threats early before even acquiring special boosts. Once special boosts are passed to espeon it can become nearly unbeatable I agree.

If stored power and baton pass in one moveset were banned it would allow unaware Pokemon to do quite well against baton pass. In this instance haze quagsire would not be necessary as it would wall baton pass easily. It would also require baton pass to acquire special boosts to begin to do any serious damage to opponents.

 

[deepbluejeer]

Cofagrigus is naturally a defensive wall, has the nice immunities to Normal and Fighting type moves, and with Knock Off and the ability to absorb status, it would not be dead weight beyond Hazing Baton Pass. No, I have not playtested it against Baton Pass. I am nowhere near the top of the ladder where the main issue with Baton Pass is said to be, and any battles I have against the people I would match against would not provide worthwhile evidence. ~Don't you dare say that this makes me unqualified to debate this. This forum is open to everyone because any ban or nerf would affect everyone on the ladder, not just the top rated players.

While it doesn't disqualify you from debating in this thread, you have to test these counters against both BP and non-BP teams. Ideally there should be a good sample size of wins and losses using these counters, but it looks like it won't be easy to gather that kind of data. You're not going to convince anyone if you can't back up your claims that the sets you posted are viable if you don't test them.

As far as saying Rapid Spin is the only reason to use Blastoise in OU, that is simply untrue. Mega Blastoise with Scald/Water STAB, Dark Pulse, Aura Sphere, and Haze replacing Rapid Spin is not sub-optimal as it retains great coverage and power and would still be a major offensive threat in its own right.

Mega Blastoise might be a good attacker, but the reason why it sees its OU right now is its ability to beat spin blockers with Dark Pulse. You're right that Mega Blastoise can use Haze and still be useful, but how is it going to counter Baton Pass when 1) it is slow, 2) it can't do anything to core members of the team once they've gathered boosts, and 3) it is easy to wear down when it doesn't have reliable recovery?

 

[Dope Boi Magic]

but how is it going to counter Baton Pass when 1) it is slow, 2) it can't do anything to core members of the team once they've gathered boosts, and 3) it is easy to wear down when it doesn't have reliable recovery?

I feel like this has been said so many times but I suppose it can't hurt to say again:

You don't wait for the baton pass team to acquire outstanding boosts then decide "oh hey maybe I should haze."

Here is a simple process to use haze effectively:
1) Maintain offensive pressure and wear down HP
2) Send in hazer once boosts have become difficult to deal with
3) Haze
4) Switch out
5) Rinse, repeat.

In a simple 5 steps YOU too could be beating baton pass reliably with mega blastoise or any other haze poke of your choosing.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

Let's see the list.

[...]

OK, so things that directly counter BouncePass are:

-things that can learn Haze
-Mold Breaker Roar/Whirlwind
-Unaware Pokémon
-Any Infiltrator that can OHKO an Espeon, a Xatu, and a Mega Absol
-Imprison + Baton Pass
-Perish Song (bypasses Bounce and gets Passed)

So, Pokémon that could conceivably counter BouncePass:

Current OU/UU Pokémon learning Haze
Crobat Barely OU viable and even then it has serious 4MSS already. Although it can be used as a quick solution. Don't use directly on Espeon.
Vaporeon A set of Scald/Ice beam/Wish/Haze could be viable if Baton pass teams are common and retains the majority of Vaporeon defenses. You can change Wish for Chesto Berry + Rest. Maximum physical defensive investment, as usual in Vaporeon.
Quagsire This pokemon has been talked already. Hae is not that useful because his ability ignore boosts already.
Honchkrow Is borderline too frail tpo use Haze (more than decent HP but terrible defenses) and his goal is always being offensive. If you do, it has not to lose the moves Sucker Punch and/or Night Slash , Brave Bird and Heat Wave/Superpower.
Blastoise Exists the usable but barely viable set (only with Charizard or Pinsir as a teammates) with Rapid Spin/Haze/Scald/Toxic with Leftovers, and the variation of the fully viable set of Rapid Spin/Scald/Dark Pulse or Aura Sphere/Haze, with @Blastoisinite.
Tentacruel It's one of the pokemon with I doubt of his unviable status (there are at least 10)* and is a pokemon that only requires Scald and Rapid Spin to function, meanign that the rest of the set is basically filler.
Gengar Normally it's offensive but given his resistances can be used as a Haze user, specially given his offensive presence vs common parts of a BP team with his usual ofensive moves, starting with Shadow Ball.
Dragonite Haze is definitely viable on some set, the question is where it fit in the moveset. Remember that Haze + Dragon Dance is like Stealth Rock + Defog,
Xatu (neither OU nor UU, but relevant because it's one of the BouncePass users; c) I don't know how Xatu set is, ina ll honestly.
Chandelure If BP teams are common, Chandelure could be a threat thanks to Haze + Infiltrator Shadow Ball + Fire Blast/Flamethrower. However it's frail.
Greninja There's a problem with him. Haze will convert Greninja into a Ice type. Even though it's outclassed, Torrent Greninja can be used as a option (all of his moves except Ice Beam recieve STAB with Torrent, and his normal type is good against priority)
Zygarde Unusable because it requires set up to actually function.
Dragalge Dragalge is UU? I doubt that is OU viable, and even then I doubt how it can function with Haze. I think Haze can be put somewhere in his moveset, but not how.

Current OU/UU Pokémon with Mold Breaker Roar/Whirlwind
Mega Gyarados One of the msot viable answer to it: It comes main in two version; one is the Dragon Dance/Waterfall/Earthquake or Stone Edge/Roar and another is a pure tank set (has the defense of Umbreon) or Waterfall/Earthquake/Stone Edge or Thunder Wave or Taunt/Roar.
Haxorus Severe 4MSS because missing Poison Jab against Mr. Mime is too much. A frail pokemon with a weakness to 117 BP Fairy Hyper Voice that loves BP to it is not a good idea.
Hawlucha (both BL) Hawlucha is too frail to function ith Roar/Whirlwind.

Current OU/UU Pokémon with Unaware
Clefable Better than uagsire ofensively because it actually has ofensive presence, specially with Calm Mind.
Quagsire (not a threat unless it has Haze)

Infiltrator Pokémon that can OHKO the bulkiest possible Xatu Espeon (252/252+ base 95/60 (Special) Defense, base 65 HP)
Specs Chandelure, and only if the Xatu has no Sp. D. boosts. Espeon also dies to Chandelure's Specs Shadow Ball, but like Xatu, it survives if it's got Sp. D. boosts. If you're Passing stuff, boost your Defenses. I agree with that

OU/UU Pokémon with Imprison/BP
The only Pokémon with this combo is Musharna, who is non-viable. Musharna has no place neither in the OU or the UU metagame.

Current OU/UU Pokémon with Perish Song
Celebi One of the few it can use the move reliable.
Absol (Only Mega Absol is really usable, I believe) 75/60/60 is not going to be useful to use Perish Song. Don't forget some of his offensive movepool.
Gengar Not only learns Haze but he also learns Perish Song. I doubt that is recommend to run those two of moves, though.
Azumarill Even though it's not standard set, a tanking set of Azumarill exchanging CB for Leftovers/Mystic Water while putting Haze. azumarill doesn't require more thna Aua Jet/aterfall/play Rough to reliably function.
Honchkrow I think

OU/UU BouncePass Counters
Crobat
Vaporeon
Quagsire
Honchkrow
Blastoise
Tentacruel
Gengar
Dragonite
Xatu (neither OU nor UU, but relevant because it's one of the BouncePass users I already have the number)
Chandelure
Greninja
Zygarde Can't use Haze because this species absolutely requires set up with function. Only 100 BP Attack, remember.
Dragalge
Clefable
Mega Gyarados
Haxorus A frail pokemon (specially on the special side) is not a check to Bp teams. Specially given how Roar goes last everytime and Hazorus is an Sylveon attracter.
Hawlucha Too frail to use pseudo-hazing.
Celebi
Absol
Azumarill
Gengar
Honchkrow Suboptimal set of a pokemon who is bordelrine viable.

So, there are 11 OU Pokémon, 2 BL Pokémon and 8 UU Pokémon, plus Xatu, that could conceivably counter and will at a minimum check BouncePass.

the surprise is that a lot of pokemon can run Haze running other sets or not losing a lot of function of why those pokemon are used.

And there a lot of standard pokemon that can defeat Baton pass with prediction. It looks like the OU metagame is too physically oriented that special attackers didn't exist. You can use Special Attackers to defeat the most common BP while being S, A or B ranking to out pressure on the Baton pass teams. You can use a offensive setter of Stealth Rock (the best that I can think off is Stone Edge/Sacred Sword/Earthquake/Stealth Rock of terrakion to deal with BP teams), you can use talonflame as a lead (BP teams lack Flying resists), Mega Pinsir, BD Azumarill, Mixed Attackers like Aegislash, many Knock Off users like Bisharp, other Roar /Whirlwind users like Hippowdon, Mandibuzz, Skarmory....

Many of them are viable ing eneral outside full BP teams, are daptable to it in the pokemon.

The only thing that I see broken is Speed Boost + Baton Pass because it makes so easy to pass speed to the teammates and is a new element of Gen VI. Without Speed Boost, Baton pass teams are a serious threat, but without Speed Boost has to actvely Speed pass meaning that the opponent can't defend them with usual pokemon and can hide in a Protect/Substitute while doing that.

Note that i don't suggest a Speed Boost ban because it nerfs a lot of pokemon that are fine in the OU metagame (or lower) that may even not have Baton pass like Scolipede without Baton Pass, Sharpedo and Yanmega.

 

[haunter]

Why do you need a surefire counter to a team?

Can you, at least, read the post I was replying to before quoting mine? I was replying to Red Cat, who posted a list of supposed surefire counters, which I refuted. Nobody ever said you need a surefire counter, but the fact that the only true counter to Baton Pass is a ridiculous gimmick is probably a clue of how unhealthy for the metagame Baton Pass chains currently are. Also consider that Baton Pass can not be treated like a single Pokémon. If your team is weak to, let's say Kyurem-B (a Pokémon that's said to have no safe switch ins), in the worst case scenario you sacrifice a member of your team and then bring in a revenge killer in order to kill it or force it out. Baton Pass is completely different. If you don't have a way to reliably break the chain, it's pretty much game over.

Where is the surefire counter to beat a standard deosharp team?

What does this even mean? You don't need surefire counters for Deo-Sharp teams. Deo-Sharp teams are not even an autonomous team archetype. You counter those teams according to the other members of the team.

in a game that requires prediction above all else, there can never be a flawless counter, especially when the enemy can prepare for you

This is what we call team match-up, which is a component of the game that full Baton Pass teams tend to exacerbate, as stated in my OP and in many other posts in this thread. I suggest you to read it.

Just keep in mind what we nerfed with the last complex ban.

What? What is there to keep in mind? Can everybody stop bringing up Drizzle in this thread? Drizzle (and weather in general) WAS the metagame in Gen V. We decided to nerf Drizzle instead of outright banning it, cause the ban of Drizzle would have caused a lot of consequential bans, which is something that we wanted to avoid. You might agree or disagree with our choice, but it is completely irrelevant here.

q p, you're presenting a favourable situation for the Thundurus user. What happens if the Baton Pass user leads with Smeargle, uses Magic Coat to scout for a possible Taunt and then uses Spore on you as you Thunder Wave it? You're going to have to rely on a full paralysis to prevent it from setting up Ingrain and Baton Pass it to a team mate. Sure, Thundurus can be a valuable asset to fight Baton Pass chains, but it's certainly not a reliable counter to the strategy.

 

[Rotosect]

Can you, at least, read the post I was replying to before quoting mine? I was replying to Red Cat, who posted a list of supposed surefire counters, which I refuted. Nobody ever said you need a surefire counter, but the fact that the only true counter to Baton Pass is a ridiculous gimmick is probably a clue of how unhealthy for the metagame Baton Pass chains currently are. Also consider that Baton Pass can not be treated like a single Pokémon. If your team is weak to, let's say Kyurem-B (a Pokémon that's said to have no safe switch ins), in the worst case scenario you sacrifice a member of your team and then bring in a revenge killer in order to kill it or force it out. Baton Pass is completely different. If you don't have a way to reliably break the chain, it's pretty much game over.

I would like to stop you here. You said if your team is "weak to Kyurem-B". Well, how about the fact that not every team archetype is weak to Baton Pass? Hyper-offense can still be potentially beaten, but by now it should be clear that BP teams struggle against them. The reason is obvious: HO teams can hit hard from turn 1, BP teams can't. This is their worst weakness and HO capitalize on this in order to shut them down as quickly as possible.

Then we have stall teams, who usually pack something like Unaware users, Perish Song or Sableye who give BP teams headaches. This is roughly a 50/50 match-up for both sides.

Rain teams are making a comeback and from my experience if they have Perish Song Politoed and the BP team has Zapdos instead of Mr.Mime they pretty much auto-win. Even if BP teams do have Mr.Mime, they have major issues against Kabutops and Thundurus, who can deal lots of damage in the first few turns much like Talonflame and Mega Pinsir do in the standard HO teams. What exactly is a BP team doing against Kabutops? Send Vaporeon out? That's where a rain team user predicts, makes a double switch and sends Thundurus out, who has a field day against Vappy.
This scenario exemplifies the other major weakness of BP chains: they have no entry hazards! You're not punished for making double switches against them and you can take advantage of their fast Baton Pass (after a couple of speed boosts) with a slow Volt Switch/U-Turn in order to keep momentum on your side.
Oh and there's also Manaphy, who is extremely dangerous with its Tail Glow set. Hydration also makes it immune to Spore and it's faster than Smeargle/Mr.Mime so it doesn't fear Encore either.
Overall, rain teams are strong against BP teams.

Finally, there is balanced offense. This is the team archetype that struggles against BP because it may or may not carry the right offensive checks and it usually doesn't have room to carry the "gimmicky" answers BP teams require such as Perish Song.
However, even these teams could actually beat BP teams if they dedicated a teamslot for those. In BW we had weatherless and sun teams carrying Kingdra and Gastrodon specifically to deal with rain teams, in other words they used a pokemon that would counter an entire playstyle they were weak against.

Isn't the entire idea behind balanced offense to play as an offensive/defensive hybrid playstyle with the goal of adapting to the rest of the metagame? Why can't they adapt to Baton Pass teams? Why do they refuse to adapt? Is it because BP is not a "honorable" playstyle and it shouldn't be taken seriously? Why is BP the team archetype that needs to be nerfed, and not balanced offense who needs to adapt or succumb?

 

[Albacore]

I absolutely agree with Non-Guest 31415 that we really need to do more actual testing instead of going round in circles bringing up so-called counters and checks to BP. We've pretty much established that we need to implement some kind of ban, but it's not quite clear which one. The way I see it, there are a total of 8 types of team we need to test in order to understand what exactly makes BP uncompetetive and help us figure out the best way to nerf it :

• Full BP (This is what the other BP teams will be compared to. If a battle with another BP team goes the same way as with this one, both concerning the actual battle turns and the players' experiences, it's a sure sign that the team is still broken.)
• Full BP without Scolipede
• Full BP without Espeon
• Full BP without either Scolipede or Espeon
  
• Full BP without Stored Power
• BP with 4 users
• BP with 3 users
• BP with 2 users

Obviously, we should come up with the best possible team according to the given parameters, which is why I think we should to work together and create these teams collectively. This shouldn't be too hard to optimize, since these are all a few steps removed from full BP which is optimized itself. I already have a 3 BP user team (Scoliopede / Espeon / Sylveon / Victini / Heatran / Landorus, although Landorus is basically filler and has yet to do anything at all), and I'd like it if other people could share their own BP testing teams so that we can try to improve them and try them out.

 

[haunter]

Rotosect, nobody ever implied that Baton Pass can't be beaten. If that was the case, Baton Pass would have been instantly banned at the beginning of Gen VI. I just said that, unless you have a reliable way to break the chain, you have very high chances of losing to it. And, once again, Baton Pass is not comparable to a single Pokémon.

Also, balanced offense refuse to adapt to Baton Pass cause including dedicated counters to Baton Pass means making the team overall worse and less effective.

 

[Reverb]

Based on everything I've read, coupled with my own experience, I believe the best solution is to limit the number of BP users per team to three or four maximum. This would prevent the ridiculous chains that can only be stopped by over-centralizing one's team. The truth is that while I usually beat full BP due to the incompetence of my opponent, I struggle greatly against good players who know how to use their team. That being said, BP still artificially augments a battler's skill, as I've seen many rather poor players get upward of 1750 using BP.

 

[Alxion]

To all the people saying Haze Quagsire is an automatic win against BP, this is a replay against Dauude Sandstorm (1st) and dEnIsSsS (7th):

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-110739069

If the number one player in the ladder (currently at the 2nd place though) with a well prepared team against BP (he/she has both a Haze Quagsire and a Clear Smog Amoongus) still loses against BP, it means something...

Don't ban BP, but I think a little nerf is necessary right now. Probably having to manually set up speed would be a nice compromise between nerfing and not make useless BP. For me, I think one possible solution would be to ban speed boost + BP when another teammate has also BP (so quick pass is still allowed)

 

[qpie]

q p, you're presenting a favourable situation for the Thundurus user. What happens if the Baton Pass user leads with Smeargle, uses Magic Coat to scout for a possible Taunt and then uses Spore on you as you Thunder Wave it? You're going to have to rely on a full paralysis to prevent it from setting up Ingrain and Baton Pass it to a team mate.

Of course there's thousands of more possible scenarios (dry switch into Sylveon, full paralysis, 2+ CMs from Sylveon to Espeon, x CMs from Sylveon to Vaporeon, ballsy plays with Scolipede for multiple Speed boosts, they just lead with Smeargle, a double switch somewhere in between, predictions or predictions, ...).

I'm well aware that my little theorymon snippet does not accurately represent a real match in its entirety.

It was merely meant to illustrate that in a realistic scenario even a Pokemon which is not one of those fabled full counters to full Baton Pass teams can put quite a lot of pressure on them and force them to work for their win.

Sure, Thundurus can be a valuable asset to fight Baton Pass chains, but it's certainly not a reliable counter to the strategy.

This is true. Thundurus is not a full counter to Baton Pass chains. It is debatable whether a full counter to Baton Pass chains even exists.

However the whole point I was trying to make is that you do not need to bring a reliable counter to Baton Pass chains to have a fighting chance against them.

Adapting to full Baton Pass teams shouldn't mean countering them into the ground to the point where you pretty much auto-win against them.

Largely irrelevant theorymoning just for the hell of it

What happens if the Baton Pass user leads with Smeargle [...]?

Okay, so a few matches in your opponent has finally realised you usually lead with your trusty Thunder Wave Thundurus. They're learning, gotta give them some credit for that.

Anyway, they decide to counter-lead your Thundurus with their Smeargle.

vs.

Your initial response to Smeargle usually was to paralyze it. However this time Smeargle doesn't have any Speed boosts yet so Thundurus can outspeed it and their Scolipede isn't paralyzed so your usual play might not be the best one here.

Instead why not just go for the Thunderbolt? This will most likely end the turn with Smeargle at 1 HP and Thundurus sleeping.

As long as you have any priority or anything else that outspeeds Smeargle on your team they pretty much have to use Baton Pass on the next turn. Ingrain prevented, Smeargle as good as down. Not too bad, no?

Now your Thundurus could also be carrying Taunt which would most likely be your best play. If your opponent happens to predict this and their Smeargle has Magic Coat they might bounce it back, but that just brings us back to turn 1. Just use Thunderbolt on the next turn and nothing really changes. Besides that using Magic Coat against something which outspeeds and 2HKOs Smeargle seems like a fairly ballsy play on your opponent's part.

Of course they could also dry switch into Espeon to bounce back your predicted Taunt and then go to Espeon to win the 1v1 against your taunted Thundurus.

Or you actually decide to go for the Thunder Wave as they use Magic Coat and nothing changes.

Or they use Encore on your Thunder Wave.

Or they just dry switch into Sylveon straight away.

Or maybe something completely different happens.


Point is, there is a real match going on here. This isn't just "me press swagger", but a proper interactive game where both players consciously try to outplay each other with some - admittedly I'm using this word very liberally here - skill involved.

Also there are no full counters, auto-wins or auto-loses to be found here.