Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[SapphSabre777]

Hai guys! ^.^ Just posting to say I support the use of Science to figure out how the different variations of Baton Pass work, while posting replays to show the different options available for possible nerfs and stuff. Let's get this thread on track and find possible solutions, because there are some good ones - I'm also not saying it's gonna be necessarily 'fun' haha, but due to previous posts suggesting this, it would be helpful to do. I'm available for BP testing with the purpose of posting replays here for discussion - my alt I'm using for this is MegaZordUnited - get in contact with me on PS! if u'd like to help in this regard :) peace

nerf variations

5 users
4 users
3 users
2 users
Stored Power + baton pass
Magic Bounce + baton pass
Speed Boost + baton pass
-Scolipede
-Espeon
(I might have forgot some ?_? btw we don't have to cover all of these, just a couple would be fine:)

Hmm...

I'll be honest here, this is going to be tricky to fix. If/when the testing occurs, it will be interesting to see what the outcome is. But first...there are some questions in my head.

What constitutes as too much BPing?
This is one of the big questions if people aim for limiting the number of BPers. Even with a good handful of BPers, the strategy still runs rampant. It will be up to the professionals to determine how many BPers it

Would banning a combination of moves or abilities render a Pokemon less useful?
This is one of the big questions if people aim for the Speed Boost + BP or Scolipede/Espeon + BP complex ban. Scolipede and Espeon are both Pokemon with their own perks, but would banning their perks for the entire metagame be the best thing, considering it would definitely affect them negatively? Again, up to the professionals.

Anyways, I'm done rambling, and I know I am far from any sort of "high rank status," but it is obvious that there needs to be some sort of change for the sake of the metagame.

 

[dkkc19]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-111154683

First time I ever manage to beat a baton pass team. It was a rage quit, but I beat his cycle of baton passing.

Would Scolipede be a decent answer to Baton Pass teams? As far as I know, most, if not all of the Pokemons of Baton Pass teams either weak or neutral to Bug moves, and Scolipede itself is weak to Rock and can be taken care of using Rock Slide.

Since Baton Pass teams rely on setting up and won't bother to attack, you can use that to your advantage and Sword Dance to the maximum and then you'd be able to 1hko or 2hko every Pokemon on that team while outspeeding them with Jolly Nature and Speed Boost ability. I think a Jolly 252speed Scoli outspeeds everyone of the usual

Scolipede
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Speed / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Megahorn
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake/Poison Jab/Pursuit

 

[Duck Chris]

People saying baton pass doesnt auto win smh. The difference between baton pass and other team styles is that if you make 0 blatent misplays you cannot lose against a good portion of OU teams when you run baton pass. It ends up being that the only times you beat baton pass without getting lucky are the times that the player made a silly mistake.

BP is like if there was a chess strategy that was so good that your opponent could tell you exactly what they were planning to do and still beat you most of the time. For the anti-nerf people: please try to think of times when you beat baton pass without the bp player misplaying.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

I think Baton Pass chains should still exist and be able to compete. If we increase the number of viable counters to them, we should have a solution that still allows the meta to evolve to a lesser extent. 5 Baton Passers is my personal favorite, but may prove to not be enough.

The banning of Stored Power + Baton Pass is another great idea since it is just like the banning of Swift Swim + Rain teams. I would be in favor of this as well. It would make more counters available, like setting up alongside the Baton Pass team.

Banning Espeon or Scolipede is too drastic. the individual pokemon aren't the problem, its the combination. Limiting to 3 Pokemon is also too drastic, as it eliminates the entire playstyle all together (which I know some people are for :/)

If we chose to nerf, lets make sure we aren't destory baton pass so much that we basically banned it...

 

[RhymeBeat]

I think Baton Pass chains should still exist and be able to compete. If we increase the number of viable counters to them, we should have a solution that still allows the meta to evolve to a lesser extent. 5 Baton Passers is my personal favorite, but may prove to not be enough.

The banning of Stored Power + Baton Pass is another great idea since it is just like the banning of Swift Swim + Rain teams. I would be in favor of this as well. It would make more counters available, like setting up alongside the Baton Pass team.

Banning Espeon or Scolipede is too drastic. the individual pokemon aren't the problem, its the combination. Limiting to 3 Pokemon is also too drastic, as it eliminates the entire playstyle all together (which I know some people are for :/)

If we chose to nerf, lets make sure we aren't destory baton pass so much that we basically banned it...

Baton Pass won't be banned. Not a single person is saying. What frankly I think should be banned is BP chains that use switch priority and accumulated boosts to make themselves near-uncounterable. Getting rid of this strategy doesn't make BP worthless. There's still a use for Quick Pass, which can be fun without being broken.

 

[teamsnickers]

Guys the metagame is still evolving everyone just relax. Remember when people were saying mega pinsir deserves a suspect test.... Everyone just wait until the metagame settles down because its shifting like nuts atm with bulk zard x being the next "hot thing" lets wait a month or 2 and see how bp is doing and if people just dont stop using it like tflame compared to 2 or 3 months ago.

 

[Arash]

Arash you can call out people to be "bitchy" and "whiny", but people do consider Baton Pass, this is why you see Haze + Unaware Quagsire. Instead of calling people out on being "whiny" and naming two pokes (which don't check BP well), why don't you explain to us how you beat Baton Pass consistently (especially for defensive teams without haze quagsire). Only Taunt+NP Thundurus can get the job done consistently vs Baton Pass, while Belly Drum Azumarill faces a 50-50 prediction game on the second turn (Play Rough the +2 def +1 Spe Scolipede baton passing to Vaporeon or Waterfall a Scolipede who will Iron Defense to 2HKO with Waterfall + Aqua Jet).

the point of my original post (which was deleted, naturally) was that the best way to beat BP is with immediate offensive pressure; set up sweepers are the best at this, because if you see the standard 6 passer team, you are basically guaranteed all the set up turns you want. Special sweepers especially, because it is far easier for a BP team to get defense boosts over sp. defense (volcarona with lum berry comes to mind)

It's not enough for people to consider baton pass, think of some checks and call it OP without seriously suspecting it and trying to counter it. It's like trying to ban Keldeo because "whoamg it is so super strong". Keldeo is dangerous, and if you don't take precautionary measures then expect to lose to it every time. There are many viable strategies in 6th gen OU, and after banning swagger / BP chains, what will be the next thing to face banning?

 

[jbtc10]

When people bring up counters, how come they never mention shedinja? It's the definitive BP counter, since it's immune to every BP team attacking move in stored power, hyper voice, scald and thunderbolt. It can swords dance up to +6 and then fire off powerful x-scizors and shadow claws which also has a high crit rate to help bypass defensive boosts. And shedinja is not dead weight against other teams since wonder guard is the best ability in the game and like ditto, shedinja is always usable in any tier because of that ability. Shedinja used to be ranked in ou but was removed because somebody made a silly suggestion to delist it, but it hard walls many things in the meta, can spread burns and keep up momentum with baton pass. It's infinitely better than haze murkrow in almost every way.

 

[sidakarya]

I also think, doing science on various BP nerfs is a very good idea - it will pinpoint exactly how much of a nerf we need, to make BP as a playstyle healthy. I would assume, it would have to be fairly substantial - after all has Jukain showed in his replays, that 5- and 4-BP-chains are still absurdly powerful.

I've in fact started in a small way, to take on the project. Currently testing 3-BP chains - it's a quick-and-dirty team with a core of Scoli+Espeon+Smeargle (for Smashpass) with Aegislash+Garchomp+M-Gardy as recipients (the M-Gardy is actually just thrown in there if anything but). I'm not yet high enough on my testalt, to really conclude anything (currently at ~1580), but from what I've played of it, it's still very powerful - the Smashpass is what really drives the team. It still wins very easy against full Stall, but more offensive teams break this team much easier, especially ones with Talonflame. I do miss out a lot on the Bulk, that full baton pass teams so enjoy, and oftentimes, what passing I do is not in chains, but many series of quickpassing. If anything, it plays a lot more like HO. Flying-spam is a real weakness of my team, even with a bulkychomp.

Here's my team, if anyone wants to try out. I'm still working out the fine details of it, so it's just a general idea thereof, what it would look like.

3-BP chain team

(Scolipede) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 72 Atk / 188 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Substitute
- Iron Defense
- Baton Pass

(Espeon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 224 Def / 32 Spd
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Stored Power
- Baton Pass

(Smeargle) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 96 HP / 120 Def / 40 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Shell Smash
- Baton Pass
- Magic Coat

(Aegislash) @ Spell Tag
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 124 Atk / 252 SAtk / 132 Spd
Rash Nature
- King's Shield
- Shadow Ball
- Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Sword

(Garchomp) @ Leftovers
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 112 HP / 252 Atk / 144 Spd
Naive Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Fire Blast
- Rock Slide

(Gardevoir) @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Stored Power / Psyshock
- Hidden Power [Ground] / Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp / Destiny Bond

 

[Arash]

nobody mentions shedinja because if it got popular enough as a BP counter, one of the members will simply run something that kills it (vaporeon w/ toxic, for instance)

 

[Rosen]

Okay, we need to get something straight. The only way the metagame is going to "evolve" is if BP teams become much more prevalent, like Rain was in BW OU. The problem is that they aren't common enough for people to build teams specifically to counter them, as those teams designed to do so are absolute dogshit. This is coming from the guy who discovered the whole Musharna Imprison + BP thing, and I am not advising ANYONE to use this. EVER. Any set designed to specifically counter BP is a waste of a set, as BP teams aren't common enough for anyone to be successful in this regard. Last Gen, anti-weather teams such as Team Tabloo could do extremely well, but the difference was those Anti-Weather teams were ACTUALLY GOOD OUTSIDE OF WEATHER. The Heatran + Gastrodon + Skarmory/Roserad core is incredibly solid and always will be, no matter the surroundings. The thing is, Anti-BP teams do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING besides counter BP.

Which is why BP need a nerf. Because most BP teams aren't anti-BP, regular teams struggle greatly against BP, as shown with DeNiSsSs, and Anti-BP teams struggle with EVERYTHING ELSE IN EXISTENCE.

Everyone besides avid BP users seems to collectively agree that limiting the number of BP users is the best solution for everyone involved, as it nerfs without destroying the playstyle entirely.

LIMIT THE NUMBER OF BATON PASS USERS TO 3 MAXIMUM PER TEAM.

This is the best solution, and people need to start collectively agreeing on this. No more obscure counters, no more weak arguments for it being an "easily maneuverable" playstyle.

Pro-BP users, get your heads out of your rear ends and be reasonable for a change. You are in the minority, and this is the least harsh solution Anti-BP (aka THE MAJORITY) have come up with.

We need to find middle ground, and this is the prime example of middle ground. Let's come to terms with this and actually get somewhere for a change.

 

[KztxL7]

When people bring up counters, how come they never mention shedinja? It's the definitive BP counter, since it's immune to every BP team attacking move in stored power, hyper voice, scald and thunderbolt. It can swords dance up to +6 and then fire off powerful x-scizors and shadow claws which also has a high crit rate to help bypass defensive boosts. And shedinja is not dead weight against other teams since wonder guard is the best ability in the game and like ditto, shedinja is always usable in any tier because of that ability. Shedinja used to be ranked in ou but was removed because somebody made a silly suggestion to delist it, but it hard walls many things in the meta, can spread burns and keep up momentum with baton pass. It's infinitely better than haze murkrow in almost every way.

Shedninja is not immune to Spikes
Shedninja is not immune to Stealth Rocks
Shedninja is not immune to Burns
Shedninja is not immune to Poison
Shedninja is not immune Sandstorm
Shedninja is weak to Knock Off
Shedninja is weak to Aegislash
Shedninja is weak to Talonflame
Shedninja is weak to too much of OU.
Shedninja is not viable.

 

[Toljik]

When people bring up counters, how come they never mention shedinja? It's the definitive BP counter, since it's immune to every BP team attacking move in stored power, hyper voice, scald and thunderbolt. It can swords dance up to +6 and then fire off powerful x-scizors and shadow claws which also has a high crit rate to help bypass defensive boosts. And shedinja is not dead weight against other teams since wonder guard is the best ability in the game and like ditto, shedinja is always usable in any tier because of that ability. Shedinja used to be ranked in ou but was removed because somebody made a silly suggestion to delist it, but it hard walls many things in the meta, can spread burns and keep up momentum with baton pass. It's infinitely better than haze murkrow in almost every way.

There's enough checks and counters to BP that you don't need to suggest NU Pokemon like Murkrow, Musharna and Shedinja. All you're doing is making Baton Pass look more powerful than it actually is.

 

[jbtc10]

I never said you needed to use dedicated counters, you don't (and generally shouldn't unless your team specifically needs one), I was merely saying that there is a better one than the others being talked about, which does a better job against both BP and other teams simultaneously, so if you are going to use a dedicated counter, you might as well use this one.

 

[Non-Guest 31415]

OK, we're getting into the obscure stuff here, but... Infiltrator Malamar. It exists for one reason and one reason only: to utterly kill Baton Pass. Topsy-Turvy bypasses Magic Bounce, Infiltrator bypasses Substitute, and it's a Dark-type, immune to Stored Power.

Obviously, there's a reason we're not using this; I just don't know what it is. Anyone care to explain why it was dismissed in parts of the thread I haven' looked at? I'd imagine this would get mentioned before Imprison Baton Pass Musharna.

 

[Andrew]

OK, we're getting into the obscure stuff here, but... Infiltrator Malamar. It exists for one reason and one reason only: to utterly kill Baton Pass. Topsy-Turvy bypasses Magic Bounce, Infiltrator bypasses Substitute, and it's a Dark-type, immune to Stored Power.

Obviously, there's a reason we're not using this; I just don't know what it is. Anyone care to explain why it was dismissed in parts of the thread I haven' looked at? I'd imagine this would get mentioned before Imprison Baton Pass Musharna.

Probably because: 4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Malamar: 348-410 (92.5 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

 

[Non-Guest 31415]

Probably because: 4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Malamar: 348-410 (92.5 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

OK. And why don't we use Focus Sash? (I just want to figure out what the flaw is; I know there's not a one-step solution we haven't seen. We're at 50 pages now; we've seen everything)

 

[Mr. Mime]

It seems that a large number of players still sees limiting the number of Baton Pass users on a team as the optimal nerf; I beg you to reconsider, for while this limit may be the most obvious nerf to the strategy, I cannot see it reach the wanted result: it will take away any option for innovation Baton Pass may have had.

By limiting the number of Baton Pass users on a team to three, we do not keep Baton Pass chains playable as a strategy; the only strategy we conserve is the infamous combination of Scolipede, Espeon, and Sylveon.

Banning Scolipede will however serve a very similar purpose, while keeping the tactic intact and flexible: the loss of Scolipede will force Baton Pass players to look for an alternate Pokémon to use alongside Vaporeon to boost the defense stat, while also incorporating Ninjask - they would give up two team spots to do what Scolipede could accomplish by itself. In short they will have to forego one of Smeargle, Mr. Mime, and Zapdos for a Pokémon like Mawile that fulfills the other half of Scolipede's function.

The second positive effect that the ban will have is that full Baton Pass teams can no longer boost both defense and speed at the same time, granting an opponent more time to bring the team to a halt before they are overwhelmed. Although the combination of Ninjask and Mawile (or Scizor etc.) will grant Baton Pass players access to new options, even the combination of the two cannot fill the hole that Scolipede left behind entirely.

As Scolipede's "double role" cannot be filled by any other Pokémon, its ban will have a similar result as limiting the number of Baton Pass users on a team, forcing the team to forego one of the counters they have against common checks, at the same time preventing it from accumulating multiple boosts as fast as it used to, giving the opponent more time to counter the strategy.

 

[WebBowser]

Non-Guest 31415 believe it or not, you are the first one to mention infiltrator Malimar. Feel proud buddy :).

 

[Andrew]

OK. And why don't we use Focus Sash? (I just want to figure out what the flaw is; I know there's not a one-step solution we haven't seen. We're at 50 pages now; we've seen everything)

I mean, I guess u could use focus sash, but it would work only once...it's not a "catch all, solve it" solution...plus infiltrator malamar is generally seen as not so good (possible understatement) in the rest of the OU metagame. So most of the time it would be worthless. It could turn the stats once, and then die. The chain could start over after that. u would have had to significantly weakend the bp chain before hand w/ team support for it to have any impact. I don't think finding one obscure counter is the way to go here. What to do is to find possible nerfs that work well and can be generally excepted, allowing the BP chain to be more competitive, and less match up based, and so that the OU metagame can fight it w/o having to resort to Nu/Ru mons that are "worthless" outside of fighting bp.

Non-Guest 31415 believe it or not, you are the first one to mention infiltrator Malimar. Feel proud buddy :).

lol I support this

Ok, in order to contribute a bit, here are a couple of matches using teams with 3 BP members (one of the teams was made by sidakarya , the other by Albacore)
Yes, I'm the Gurley Man who played "retardedly and cluelessly" in an earlier replay - i won't deny it. BP can often be incredibly - well lets say sometimes u don't have to pay much attention/care at all. That said, I'm an average player who knows what he's doing most of the time. ANd please don't resort to dissecting misplays/hax etc. Just view it as it is and see what nerf would be best. These are 3 BP teams:

#1
#2
#3

These teams are still pretty powerful but can be played around. The core of Scoli/Espeon/smeargle (or sylveon/vape) is still p powerful lol.


I will try to post more replays later of diff. variations, such as removing scolipede, magic bounce, whatever, as said in the above post by Mr. Mime

 

[KenKong]

Don't know if this is a stupid thing to say, but my general solution to baton pass teams has been my Sturdy Skarmory with Whirlwind. Once you get a Whirlwind off the BP team has lost three or four valuable turns just setting up and passing letting you set up hazzards, spread status, or simply damage the other team.

 

[deepbluejeer]

It seems that a large number of players still sees limiting the number of Baton Pass users on a team as the optimal nerf; I beg you to reconsider, for while this limit may be the most obvious nerf to the strategy, I cannot see it reach the wanted result: it will take away any option for innovation Baton Pass may have had.

By limiting the number of Baton Pass users on a team to three, we do not keep Baton Pass chains playable as a strategy; the only strategy we conserve is the infamous combination of Scolipede, Espeon, and Sylveon.

Banning Scolipede will however serve a very similar purpose, while keeping the tactic intact and flexible: the loss of Scolipede will force Baton Pass players to look for an alternate Pokémon to use alongside Vaporeon to boost the defense stat, while also incorporating Ninjask - they would give up two team spots to do what Scolipede could accomplish by itself. In short they will have to forego one of Smeargle, Mr. Mime, and Zapdos for a Pokémon like Mawile that fulfills the other half of Scolipede's function.

The second positive effect that the ban will have is that full Baton Pass teams can no longer boost both defense and speed at the same time, granting an opponent more time to bring the team to a halt before they are overwhelmed. Although the combination of Ninjask and Mawile (or Scizor etc.) will grant Baton Pass players access to new options, even the combination of the two cannot fill the hole that Scolipede left behind entirely.

As Scolipede's "double role" cannot be filled by any other Pokémon, its ban will have a similar result as limiting the number of Baton Pass users on a team, forcing the team to forego one of the counters they have against common checks, at the same time preventing it from accumulating multiple boosts as fast as it used to, giving the opponent more time to counter the strategy.

The problem with banning Scolipede is that a lot of people think that Scolipede is only broken when used in Baton Pass teams, which, theoretically, causes unnecessary collateral damage. Which is why again I bring up this question I posted in the previous page: is Scolipede broken outside of Baton Pass teams, under the support characteristic? I'l repost what I think is the merit to this proposal:

Hide

I believe Kairyu_Gen1 brought it up earlier in this thread as a potential solution to this debate, but I'd like to expand on it and bring forth the possibility of Scolipede as a suspect for its support capabilities. From the Portrait of an Uber thread:

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Now, I'm aware that these characteristics are somewhat outdated, but they're a start. Scolipede is a huge improvement over Ninjask because:
1) It isn't frail.
2) It carries Iron Defense, which overall is more helpful than Swords Dance in supporting a team.
3) It is also not dead weight offensively, meaning it can work around Taunt.

Scolipede is arguably the most important member of the Baton Pass chain, making the other team members almost impossible to break through on the physical side while also amassing Speed boosts just by alternating between Substitute and Protect. Priority Brave Bird and Taunt are a problem, but Scolipede carries Rock Slide, which, with proper prediction, can remove either Talonflame or Thundurus and allow Scolipede to freely gather Speed Boosts.

Scolipede can also quick-pass outside of BP teams, and I think the support it brings definitely has the potential to make it substantially easier for its teammates to sweep. See Ajwf's Not Stall RMT, which has two possible recipients for Scolipede's boosts.

I don't have that much experience with Scolipede though, so I'd like to hear the opinions of those who've used him enough. Is Scolipede broken under the support characteristic, based on his performance in and out of Baton Pass teams?

Also, to clarify: this is not yet my stance; I am simply proposing an alternative option.

 

[Toljik]

Don't know if this is a stupid thing to say, but my general solution to baton pass teams has been my Sturdy Skarmory with Whirlwind. Once you get a Whirlwind off the BP team has lost three or four valuable turns just setting up and passing letting you set up hazzards, spread status, or simply damage the other team.

Espeon.

 

[KenKong]

Espeon.

so true (/.-)