About HTML Declares (or lack thereof)

[scene]

There's little point in giving access to something that could cause server issues when it can easily be replaced with means that perform similar functions. Is it ideal? No, of course it isn't. But there's a reason some powers and tools are limited, because it's far simpler to restrict access than to clean up after every mess that may occur due to this access. If HTML declares were absolutely integral to the running and administrating of rooms, things would be different. If it was as easy as simply removing the offending parts of HTML declares, that would have been done. But seemingly it isn't, and we'd rather have a server and community free of threats than one where every room has the potential to cause server issues and user issues at any moment (I'm as ignorant of the technicalities as you are. but that's my understanding), but gains some snazzy declares.

As for the issue of roomowner ethics, you're not looking at it quite right. Ignoring the fact that roomowner as a status is much less of a slog and selection process than global ranks, we have many small rooms where it's simply not possible to have both an active, participating upper roomstaff and one where every owner is vetted to global levels. Just like global mods don't have the power to restart the server - you could easily make a case that if mods couldn't be trusted with this power in times of need, they shouldn't be mods. But if there's no need for a power, it's not going to be granted - and it's a pity HTML declares may have been caught in the crossfire, but arguing over the ethics of every one of PS' extensive list of roomowners is pointless and a misinterpretation of the situation.

e: No server issues, but the pm issues are very relevant and abusable, obviously. Read Zarel's below.

 

[Zarel]

Well, I mean, sure, it *can* get abused... Anything can; but why would a RO be in a position of trust if they are not worthy of it to begin with if they cannot handle this command?

A lot of them aren't trusted; that's why they're only given power over one room (which may or may not be a private room or otherwise unimportant room). Private rooms aren't even bound by most of PS rooms. If we trusted them, they'd be global drivers, at the very least (I'm actually in the middle of trying to promote the ROs we do trust to global driver, just so you have the ability to lock).

HTML allows room owners to have power over other rooms using things like the <button> trick, which they're not supposed to have power over. You guys keep saying "then just remove <button>" but you don't understand that with a freeform language like HTML, if you block one thing, there are so many other ways to do it. <input type="button"> is another way to make a button. Or <bUtToN> since HTML isn't case-sensitive. You can't just whack-a-mole every feature that could possibly be broken.

The problem has nothing to do with server load. Whoever said that was probably mistaken.

 

[Dell]

Just as easily as one could link to a malicious site, one could also hyper link to them.

As for the "PM spam button", again, if that was what was being abused then I still do not understand why that tag isn't restricted. From there, if people in a RO position, one that is of trust, is still abusing it, then why not take further action from there?



This is a website, and one of the key things to a website is, in the essence, aesthetics. So, I wouldn't say that they aren't that important to an extent.

I think that if a RO is truly fit for their position that they would also have these in "lights" in the back of their mind of what is to and what is to not benefit the server.

I guess what I'm trying to say is why not take this one step at a time with eliminating the tags that have truly proven to be malicious, such as buttons from the declare command versus eliminating HTML as a whole.

That is understandable, but honestly some of what you guys are asking isn't exactly my call either lol. What I originally wanted to do myself was warn everyone and then consider taking action to/demote those who continued to abuse it, so I agree with you on that. Room Owner definitely should be treated as a rank based on trust (as you gain full control with the room itself), which means that if you don't use the privileges appropriately, then yes you should be demoted. Unfortunately we didn't go that route with this, but maybe this discussion will bring some light once we fully determine how the Room Owner status should be approached. Personally, I think it's well justified to restrict things that have the potential to cause server issues, so while I understand where you guys are coming from, I think concerning of the server more is a fine approach also.

 

[Daiquiri]

A lot of them aren't trusted; that's why they're only given power over one room (which may or may not be a private room or otherwise unimportant room). Private rooms aren't even bound by most of PS rooms. If we trusted them, they'd be global drivers, at the very least (I'm actually in the middle of trying to promote the ROs we do trust to global driver, just so you have the ability to lock).

HTML allows room owners to have power over other rooms using things like the <button> trick, which they're not supposed to have power over. You guys keep saying "then just remove <button>" but you don't understand that with a freeform language like HTML, if you block one thing, there are so many other ways to do it. <input type="button"> is another way to make a button. Or <bUtToN> since HTML isn't case-sensitive. You can't just whack-a-mole every feature that could possibly be broken.

The problem has nothing to do with server load. Whoever said that was probably mistaken.

I get it better now, thanks for clearing up that part. Though I'm rather discouraged at the fact that there are ROs which are known not to be (fit/ethical ?) and not a whole lot is done about them.

 

[Vacate]

I get it better now, thanks for clearing up that part. Though I'm rather discouraged at the fact that there are ROs which are known not to be (fit/ethical ?) and not a whole lot is done about them.

Some of the problems were coming from private rooms, and on occasion, global staff. It's not as simple as to just demote them.

 

[scene]

I get it better now, thanks for clearing up that part. Though I'm rather discouraged at the fact that there are ROs which are known not to be (fit/ethical ?) and not a whole lot is done about them.

We do as much as we can with roomowners, we have far too many rooms to micromanage every one perfectly and we deal with any complaints we receive to the best of our ability. Private rooms have equal access to /declare (as they should), but we have less input into their running - we'd have to intrude in each one equally as much as every public room. This also applies to our less active public rooms, too. To fiddle with the auth structure of literally every single PS room to that extent would be ridiculous and impossible to get an active, trusted upper staff for the majority of rooms. It can't and won't happen - more relaxed private rooms are beneficiary to the sim, as well as our smaller rooms. Sadly, something has to give.

 

[Astyanax]

A lot of them aren't trusted; that's why they're only given power over one room (which may or may not be a private room or otherwise unimportant room). Private rooms aren't even bound by most of PS rooms. If we trusted them, they'd be global drivers, at the very least (I'm actually in the middle of trying to promote the ROs we do trust to global driver, just so you have the ability to lock).

HTML allows room owners to have power over other rooms using things like the <button> trick, which they're not supposed to have power over. You guys keep saying "then just remove <button>" but you don't understand that with a freeform language like HTML, if you block one thing, there are so many other ways to do it. <input type="button"> is another way to make a button. Or <bUtToN> since HTML isn't case-sensitive. You can't just whack-a-mole every feature that could possibly be broken.

The problem has nothing to do with server load. Whoever said that was probably mistaken.

The difference between global auth and room auth is astronomical, but surely there is some standard when it comes to promoting a RO?
I know it is impossible deduce a priori, but surely this can be improved?

If the problem really is just about trust issues, then they need to be fixed urgently. A Room Owner who doesn't abide by the general rules should not have any authority, otherwise they are pretty much being extremely unjust and hypocritical. I am speaking mostly about Public Room owners here. If the case is more private room owners, then these should be threatened with demotion


Edit:

Also, if the problem is coming from Private room owners, can it simply be that if there is evidence that a Room Owner of a private room is somehow spamming PM's or ruining the general experience OUTSIDE their own room, that these people/rooms are exterminated?

 

[Spy]

I do understand the arguments proposed ATM, how ROs can be un trusted and such. But think of it this way:

You are a brand new user on this website. You have heard it is pretty popular from friends, and you decide to check it out. You see all the different choices for rooms, and all with different staff members to help you have fun in the room. You see the colorful declares, linking you to every place you need to go, to learn as much as possible for the room.

Don't you think the declares with HTML helps out the reg users a lot more than without? We are all here and are all staff members of our own room to make the room enjoyable for the public. There are rooms like mine, where the only active ROs aren't even global voice, but we still put our heart and soul into helping the room. Without the HTML, it really isn't as interesting to see a boring wall/declare to learn.

I do understand the situation presented about the ROs though, and I understand that private rooms aren't restricted by global rules, even so, once they start affecting public rooms on ps (button spam), shouldn't it be taken into public rules and they should be demoted to mod? Maybe it's not as simple as that, but the HTML was truly a great thing, and I know there are ways around it.

 

[Ransu]

I understand that you don't want to risk the potential HTML abuse as it is now, and I understand that having good and competent staff in all of the rooms is a hard thing to achieve, needless to say I think you should try your best to work on that aspect of this whole thing. On another more relevant note as of where this goes from here, do you have a planned course of action? Will HTML declares come back once the staff lists have improved? What happens here on out?

 

[Spy]

Another thing I need to add, HTML isn't just restricted too links, colors, and pics. Hear me out.

My room is table top, we play a text based rpg here. HTML, used to be a godsend for us. We have .gifs playing of enemies, colorful declares of the different classes you can pick, we even found a nifty use of the button to make it PM the staff for what class they would like to be.

Imagine how much more life like the declares make the quests, animated gifs, colors, everything. It really brings the game to life, rather than what we have to deal with right now, with just dice and /wall.

I know we have to keep the arguement general, but imagine the applications involved for other types of rooms? You just need to use some imagination, and really show how much effect HTML has on the rooms

 

[Paynes]

Hey People, Im Paynes and I'm RO of a private room and here's my 2 cents on the situation, HTML can be abused, it seems we cannot disable the button function but I may have a solution. Maybe there is a check we can implement that detects every time a button is declared at least then the higher auth (& and ~ maybe @ depending on your preference) will be able to keep track of it. Its not like we have 100+ rooms on showdown that have corrupt ROs. Im not super aware of how we would go about doing something like this but that's up to Zarel, The Immortal and anyone else up to the task.

Just throwing my idea out there and hopefully it helps you out

 

[Daiquiri]

Hey People, Im Paynes and I'm RO of a private room and here's my 2 cents on the situation, HTML can be abused, it seems we cannot disable the button function but I may have a solution. Maybe there is a check we can implement that detects every time a button is declared at least then the higher auth (& and ~ maybe @ depending on your preference) will be able to keep track of it. Its not like we have 100+ rooms on showdown that have corrupt ROs. Im not super aware of how we would go about doing something like this but that's up to Zarel, The Immortal and anyone else up to the task.

Just throwing my idea out there and hopefully it helps you out

I don't know how hard would that be to implement, but regardless of intentions, I think that would be energy and work spent in the wrong directions. I wouldn't like the global staff babysitting the ROs as much as I'd like these immature ROs to straighten up or be demoted.

 

[Zarel]

Anyway, a side issue is, I don't know who is abusing. All I know is that users are telling me it's being abused. I don't have time to track down exactly who is doing it and who isn't. I spend my time programming for PS; I don't have time to manage the roomowners and individually decide who to trust and who not to trust.

Also, public announcement: It's not possible to detect and warn/block for HTML abuse, because HTML is too broad, you cannot reliably enable/disable specific features. You can't just make everything okay by blocking buttons.

 

[Darnell]

Anyway, a side issue is, I don't know who is abusing. All I know is that users are telling me it's being abused. I don't have time to track down exactly who is doing it and who isn't. I spend my time programming for PS; I don't have time to manage the roomowners and individually decide who to trust and who not to trust.

Also, public announcement: It's not possible to detect and warn/block for HTML abuse, because HTML is too broad, you cannot reliably enable/disable specific features. You can't just make everything okay by blocking buttons.

Can't you get a global staff member to watch then and I'm pretty sure most rooms have a global driver or higher as a Room Owner anyways who will be able to report feedback to a different admin, maybe The Immortal, not because he isn't busy but because he is on a lot and he can take care of it if he feels it is being abused to a standard where the person isn't ready to be a Room Owner?

 

[Daiquiri]

Anyway, a side issue is, I don't know who is abusing. All I know is that users are telling me it's being abused. I don't have time to track down exactly who is doing it and who isn't. I spend my time programming for PS; I don't have time to manage the roomowners and individually decide who to trust and who not to trust.

Also, public announcement: It's not possible to detect and warn/block for HTML abuse, because HTML is too broad, you cannot reliably enable/disable specific features. You can't just make everything okay by blocking buttons.

On retrospective, I agree that disabling HTML as a first approach was a good decision, but as Ransu said I'm wondering if there is a long-term plan. Will this always be like this or HTML may be implemented again in the future when certain standards are met?

 

[Spy]

On retrospective, I agree that disabling HTML as a first approach was a good decision, but as Ransu said I'm wondering if there is a long-term plan. Will this always be like this or HTML may be implemented again in the future when certain standards are met?

I think, maybe, our first plan of action should be, as dell said, to rethink what it means to be a Room Owner. All trustworthy room owners should be global voice in my opinion, and one as staff like Zarel said. If there are immature ROs, they need to be demoted immediately, because that is putting the entire room at risk. If the issue is a private room, and they are affecting public rooms, then public ps rules come into effect and the ro should be demoted, regardless. Maybe we could follow through with Darnell's plan, to try and get a global staff to watch over smaller rooms. But the term "Room Owner" really needs to be rethinked. Then, once this is sorted out, we could enable HTML again. While I do think there are solutions to enable HTML now, this seems to be the best compromise at the moment.

 

[Paynes]

I don't know how hard would that be to implement, but regardless of intentions, I think that would be energy and work spent in the wrong directions. I wouldn't like the global staff babysitting the ROs as much as I'd like these immature ROs to straighten up or be demoted.

Well whether it's time and energy spent in the wrong directions is debatable. A global staff member's job is to maintain order on PS, to do this I think there should be some effort made to 'babysit' the immature/trouble-making ROs. If they are immature then they require babysitting. I propose that we do appoint certain global staff as the people in charge of this, maybe ask drivers and up if they would like to volunteer for such a job or have it on a rotation. This problem is a pressing matter and must be dealt with immediately.

Failing that there is one other thing we can try. Since immature ROs and misused button declares are our problem we may want to consider having a meeting with most of the ROs of all rooms. I know Zarel is busy coding for PS so this isn't something he would be particularly interested in but I'm sure another admin would be happy to take the role of leader of this hypothetical meeting. During said meeting we would go over what it means to be a room owner, the do's and dont's etc... A workshop on being an RO so to speak. It sounds like it's tedious and pedantic but it's become necessary now that such childish activities are being carried out by Room Owners of all people.

One last suggestion I have takes a lot of execution but will most likely have high-grade results. I propose that we have people placed in every room, observing what is going on and keeping tabs on the Room Owners, this would allow us to see who is unworthy of the title 'Room Owner'. Again it may seem pedantic but this problem requires an elaborate solution, when dealing with human variables there is no 'simple' solution unfortunately.

 

[Zarel]

My current plan is:

- I'm going to rename /showimage to !showimage
- I'm going to make a new command: !htmlbox, which can be used to show HTML code. This will only be available to people who are BOTH roomowner AND global driver or higher.
- I've asked the moderation team leaders to promote any roomowner they trust to global driver.

 

[CrushinDefeat]

Hey Guys!

This is CrushinDefeat RO of Videogames, In regards to not being able to use HTML, I agree with a few others that the HTML's are really useful for the rooms, but if there is abuse then there must be some way to figure out, I think Spydreigon has a good idea on RO's but there needs to be a determination of how they're immature. I think the /showimage isn't necessarily a bad alternative, I think it would be a good substitute as well, however I hope we can find a way to get them back possibly. Darnell's idea sounds pretty good to me as well.

 

[evir]

Zarel, thanks for explaining how different ROs are from global staff; I see much more where you're coming from now, and I can see now that, for now, disabling HTML was the right, smartest thing to do for the time being.
I agree with the others; ROs should be held to a certain standard so that HTML can be a thing again (and so that the quality of the room is as high as possible). What that standard is, and how one would go about evaluating the ROs, is a different matter and may be much more difficult to do.
Edit: just saw your latest post and that sounds great. Thank you.

 

[Darnell]

My current plan is:

- I'm going to rename /showimage to !showimage
- I'm going to make a new command: !htmlbox, which can be used to show HTML code. This will only be available to people who are BOTH roomowner AND global driver or higher.
- I've asked the moderation team leaders to promote any roomowner they trust to global driver.

Fine by me. Thanks for your time! Peace Room Owners o-o since I see so much of you watching right now. Haha

 

[Daiquiri]

My current plan is:

- I'm going to rename /showimage to !showimage
- I'm going to make a new command: !htmlbox, which can be used to show HTML code. This will only be available to people who are BOTH roomowner AND global driver or higher.
- I've asked the moderation team leaders to promote any roomowner they trust to global driver.

Not ideal, but fair enough (and arguably the best possible decision at this point). Thanks for attending to this.

 

[Paynes]

My current plan is:

- I'm going to rename /showimage to !showimage
- I'm going to make a new command: !htmlbox, which can be used to show HTML code. This will only be available to people who are BOTH roomowner AND global driver or higher.
- I've asked the moderation team leaders to promote any roomowner they trust to global driver.

I see, that sounds good zarel, thanks for taking the time to talk to us about it, we appreciate you taking our views into consideration. I also wanted to ask about private room owners, what are your plans in regards to those?

 

[panpawn]

My current plan is:

- I'm going to rename /showimage to !showimage
- I'm going to make a new command: !htmlbox, which can be used to show HTML code. This will only be available to people who are BOTH roomowner AND global driver or higher.
- I've asked the moderation team leaders to promote any roomowner they trust to global driver.

I'm happy to see that there is already a plan ready. Thanks for the update, zarel. :)

 

[Crestfall]

Can't you get a global staff member to watch then and I'm pretty sure most rooms have a global driver or higher as a Room Owner anyways who will be able to report feedback to a different admin, maybe The Immortal, not because he isn't busy but because he is on a lot and he can take care of it if he feels it is being abused to a standard where the person isn't ready to be a Room Owner?

Whether or not people want to admit/sell people out, globals have also used html (including button). If the solution is having leaders control drivers/moderators then it's best that it stays this way.

The implementation of /showimage is already nice (granted I miss marquee for words in the room I own - as it comes in handy for hyping up certain matches).