Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[Hiphiphooray]

Or you could just, you know, Switch? What advantage does Jolteon get by using a move that isn't even useful for him (is he so scared of pursuit users?).

So if you switch, you are blindly put up against an opponents switch. If you use Baton Pass, you get to see what your opponent puts in and then choose what you want to switch to. This is known as dry passing.

Check out the second recommended set here on Smogon. Jolteon makes a great users of Baton Pass because of its speed. Rather than using Volt-switch and failing against a ground switch in, you can Baton Pass, see that he switched in a ground Pokemon, and then send in your counter. This scouting, combined with Substitute makes a great tactic.

Just limit BP to 3 users, it limits your options to use Scolipede, Smeargle and probably Vaporeon and it becomes a lot more manageable.

This is definitely an option. I am simply pointing out that doing so completely eliminates two competitive tactics (Chain and Defensive Passing).

If stall teams are the reason Baton Pass is getting nerfed, then we need to make Defensive Baton Pass teams weaker to stall teams. We don't need to eliminate the entire play style or nerf individual Pokemon. Something on the lines of:

If you have more than 4 Baton Passers you cannot use Ingrain or Stored Power (this would allow Magic Bounce to stop phasing but encourages skillful play on both sides. Since wrongly switching Espeon into Skarmory or Hippowdons physical attacks from the start will quickly tip the favor towards the stall team).

Damage Calculation

Assuming the absolute worst case scenario (Espeon is entirely defensively invested), both can still deal significant damage to Espeon. Espeon has no way of setting up on either, so at this point Espeon either needs to try to kill them first while unboosted (which is impossible) or switch out and try to set up, at which point phasing is easy.

4 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espeon: 118-139 (35.3 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espeon: 106-126 (31.7 - 37.7%) -- 91.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[Berserking Now]

I agree with Branflakes325. It ideally does not matter if BP is broken. Stall, semi-stall, and balance all struggle to deal with it even if they are well prepared as illustrated by the replay between Dauude Sandstorm and dEnIsSsS. From the March 2014 1760 statistics stall is at 6.28687%, semistall is at 7.14579%, and balance is at 30.19155%. No team should have a easy win against ~43% of the metagame.

 

[Shadow2684]

"If you have more than 4 Baton Passers you cannot use Ingrain or Stored Power (this would allow Magic Bounce to stop phasing but encourages skillful play on both sides. Since wrongly switching Espeon into Skarmory or Hippowdons physical attacks from the start will quickly tip the favor towards the stall team)."

Except that even for a complex ban this is ridiculous, Our only complex ban before was Drizzle+Swift swim. After seeing your signature, You'd have to make ONE complex ban work like three and that is definitely asking for too much. If 3 baton passers will kill the chain passing/Defensive passing of Baton pass then so be it but the truth is, Defensive passing is a solid playstyle that has very few counters that don't absolutely cripple yourself and even then most of these can be manageable by smart plays as you yourself suggested with Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados's Roar can go through Baton Pass but I'm pretty sure it doesn't negate ingrain. Haze Quagsire isn't an auto counter to BP either as the sheer power of Stored power along with a few boosts can kill Quagsire before it hazes and just sweep the rest of your team with it. Three Baton passers limit this greatly and it'll be more manageable but still alive and not as powerful as it already is, With 3 Baton passes in Scolipede, Smearlge and Vaporeon, you can get up to +4 in every stat (except attack and maybe Sp. Att) with an ingrain with good playing and then set up Espeon as your win condition with Sub, Stored Power, and any other moves you think you might need. This greatly balances it and makes more and more pokemon effective against them.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

Defensive passing is a solid playstyle that has very few counters that don't absolutely cripple yourself and even then most of these can be manageable by smart plays as you yourself suggested with Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados's Roar can go through Baton Pass but I'm pretty sure it doesn't negate ingrain. Haze Quagsire isn't an auto counter to BP either as the sheer power of Stored power along with a few boosts can kill Quagsire before it hazes and just sweep the rest of your team with it. Three Baton passers limit this greatly and it'll be more manageable but still alive and not as powerful as it already is

lol wut? I just suggested we remove Ingrain and Stored Power instead of limiting the number of Baton Passers. And then you tell me Ingrain and Stored Power are too good and we need to limit the number of Baton Passers...?

Sigh this thread... -_-

 

[BrellowBran]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-110739069

This has already been posted, but I really think more people need to watch this.

Stall gets murdered by baton pass and in this case the stall player is:

• carrying not one but TWO counters to baton pass (Haze Quagsire and Clear Smog Amoonguss)
• someone who is consistently at the top or near top of the ladder.

How can anyone watch this and still think BP isn't broken?

Just because the leaderboard leader lost, doesn't mean he should be looked at as an untouchable deity that can only be beaten by "broken hacks". Just like anyone else that loses, he had the wrong team, setup or strategy. Baton pass is a strategy and every strategy has a weakness. I discovered that the best counter to bp is a move that can cause paralysis paired with a Red card Ditto (Copy their stats and switch them out of the battle if the win the coinflip and hit first). The only baton passers that are resistant/immune to paralysis are Gligar and Zapdos but all the others are affected. If a baton passer is paralyzed, they suffer a speed reduction and have a chance of not moving at all. That can greatly hinder their passing abilities. If they cannot pass, they lose.

(You can also try Choice scarf infiltrator Whimsicott with Encore, Stun Spore, Switcheroo and leech seed)
That Whimsicott is almost guarenteed to stop a baton pass member that doesn't sport offensive moves. Leech seed continues to sap a baton passers health because it carries with the pass. Baton pass teams rarely carry a healing move so most of the time they are statused for the entire match.

 

[Aquaslash]

Umm...what was wrong with banning speed boost and magic bounce on the same team again?

 

[Rotosect]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-110739069

This has already been posted, but I really think more people need to watch this.

Stall gets murdered by baton pass and in this case the stall player is:

• carrying not one but TWO counters to baton pass (Haze Quagsire and Clear Smog Amoonguss)
• someone who is consistently at the top or near top of the ladder.

How can anyone watch this and still think BP isn't broken?

One replay is not evidence.
Not only did the stall player commit several glaring mistakes (like allowing Quagsire become setup bait for Ingrain, giving the BP team a huge advantage early on) but he could have easily won if he just kept spamming Seismic Toss with his Chansey once he was able to send her in, since Espeon had less than 50% HP and was burned.

 

[Jarrod]

One replay is not evidence.
Not only did the stall player commit several glaring mistakes (like allowing Quagsire become setup bait for Ingrain, giving the BP team a huge advantage early on) but he could have easily won if he just kept spamming Seismic Toss with his Chansey once he was able to send her in, since Espeon had less than 50% HP and was burned.

Check the OU ladder. This battle is top-tier. It shows how a team is essentially unstoppable, not because of any drastic plays. The opposing team was permanently on the back foot. Think about it. This may be just one replay, but this replay matters.

 

[Deluks917]

The team Also had flamethrower char-Y who is often considered pretty good vs baton pass. (Fire blast char-Y is useless basically).

dEnIsSsS actually has several interesting replays imo

I think a very good reason to seriously nerf baton pass is the extreme mu imbalance it adds to the game. For example in this repaly Julian had absolutely no real chance to win. Probably sub 5% http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-110593296. I really do not want this kind of mu imbalance in pokemon.

 

[haunter]

Let's stop focusing on a single replay. Yeah, that replay is relevant here since it shows how a well built Baton Pass team can easily win even against a team that is prepared for it, but that's just anecdotal evidence. And, anyway, we're not looking for evidence here, but rather for good arguments on whether Baton Pass needs to be nerfed and, if so, in which way.

 

[Rhaegar]

Just because the leaderboard leader lost, doesn't mean he should be looked at as an untouchable deity that can only be beaten by "broken hacks". Just like anyone else that loses, he had the wrong team, setup or strategy. Baton pass is a strategy and every strategy has a weakness. I discovered that the best counter to bp is a move that can cause paralysis paired with a Red card Ditto (Copy their stats and switch them out of the battle if the win the coinflip and hit first). The only baton passers that are resistant/immune to paralysis are Gligar and Zapdos but all the others are affected. If a baton passer is paralyzed, they suffer a speed reduction and have a chance of not moving at all. That can greatly hinder their passing abilities. If they cannot pass, they lose.

(You can also try Choice scarf infiltrator Whimsicott with Encore, Stun Spore, Switcheroo and leech seed)
That Whimsicott is almost guarenteed to stop a baton pass member that doesn't sport offensive moves. Leech seed continues to sap a baton passers health because it carries with the pass. Baton pass teams rarely carry a healing move so most of the time they are statused for the entire match.

Didn't just lose against any team. Lost against a team which is repeatedly played by many users along with the same sets. Hundreds of players on the ladder have nearly identical teams on account of using Baton Pass. What it means is now you don't need any creativity to beat even the best of players. I'm sure most of us who have never even played BP have faced off against BP teams enough to be able to build the standard team perfectly and proceed to win.

When you give a standard set to different Pokemon, you challenge a person's team building skill in making a solid team, their playing skill with implementation of their team, and their multi-turn foresight and prediction in-game.
When you make an ENTIRE TEAM a standard, then originality, team building, skill, and prediction are dead.

Mostly the only way to beat them is with niche. And the counters you've stated are extremely niche, and not even dependable. You can't paralyze them since Espeon bounces. Red Card Ditto is not viable in OU, even Choice Scarf Ditto is not too common being quite predictable and is used more as a buffer to keep the other team on their toes.
The Whimsicott set isn't viable in OU either, because by choicing Encore you pretty much put yourself in encore as well. The strategic use of Whimsicott is to switch in to a set up, Encore it, and U-turn to scout their switch. Against BP teams, Leech Seed won't be much of a problem when there's Ingrain along with Leftovers recovery. Not to mention Aqua Ring on Vaporeon.

Even OU effective checks like Taunt Mega-Gyarados are given trouble with Dazzling Gleam on Espeon.

I still stand by Iron Defense + Baton Pass ban on Scolipede. It's a very small change that could have quite an impact. If not that, then the limit of 3-4 would be the best choice. Banning Speed Boost + BP or Magic Bounce and BP would take away the essence of their users and also affect offensive passing.

 

[Nimbus125]

Didn't just lose against any team. Lost against a team which is repeatedly played by many users along with the same sets. Hundreds of players on the ladder have nearly identical teams on account of using Baton Pass. What it means is now you don't need any creativity to beat even the best of players. I'm sure most of us who have never even played BP have faced off against BP teams enough to be able to build the standard team perfectly and proceed to win.

When you give a standard set to different Pokemon, you challenge a person's team building skill in making a solid team, their playing skill with implementation of their team, and their multi-turn foresight and prediction in-game.
When you make an ENTIRE TEAM a standard, then originality, team building, skill, and prediction are dead.

Mostly the only way to beat them is with niche. And the counters you've stated are extremely niche, and not even dependable. You can't paralyze them since Espeon bounces. Red Card Ditto is not viable in OU, even Choice Scarf Ditto is not too common being quite predictable and is used more as a buffer to keep the other team on their toes.
The Whimsicott set isn't viable in OU either, because by choicing Encore you pretty much put yourself in encore as well. The strategic use of Whimsicott is to switch in to a set up, Encore it, and U-turn to scout their switch. Against BP teams, Leech Seed won't be much of a problem when there's Ingrain along with Leftovers recovery. Not to mention Aqua Ring on Vaporeon.

Even OU effective checks like Taunt Mega-Gyarados are given trouble with Dazzling Gleam on Espeon.

I still stand by Iron Defense + Baton Pass ban on Scolipede. It's a very small change that could have quite an impact. If not that, then the limit of 3-4 would be the best choice. Banning Speed Boost + BP or Magic Bounce and BP would take away the essence of their users and also affect offensive passing.

All of this is exactly why it needs to be banned. Iron Defense + BP ban might work, but it might not. We could do that as a sort of temporary ban and see how BP teams work without it. If they're still broken as heck, then limit the Baton Passers and severely limit the playstyle, because if they could work perfectly fine without it it would REALLY show it's broken.

 

[Rhaegar]

Why I believe Iron Defense + BP ban would be good is that it evens things out a bit. Other bans would send the use of Baton Pass chains to niche. By banning Iron Defense, Scolipede becomes a dedicated Speed Booster. One main reason he's broken is that he can Iron Defense against physical attackers and outspeed special attackers on the pass (additional note that there are no priority special moves apart from the uncommon Vacuum Wave which hardly dents Scolipede anyway) into Sylveon or Mew. With the ban of Iron Defense, Scolipede can't afford to boost in front of attack set up.

This would give offensive teams a better shot against BP. Stall teams would still have some trouble but in my opinion even stall is getting slightly monotonous with Chansey, Skarmory, Quagsire, and Venusaur on nearly every team with very few counters such a Medicham-Mega (which is checked by Sableye/Aegislash). Stall teams would still be a pain to offensive teams even if they had to include a BP counter or two. They could even include a single offensive setup.

So compared to the current uneven Baton Pass >> Stall >> Offensive

It would become somewhat cyclic and only slightly imbalanced matchups: Baton Pass > Stall > Offensive > Baton Pass

 

[WebBowser]

Why I believe Iron Defense + BP ban would be good is that it even things out a bit. Other bans would send the use of Baton Pass chains to niche. By banning Iron Defense, Scolipede becomes a dedicated Speed Booster. One main reason he's broken is that he can iron defense against physical attackers and outspeed special attackers on the pass (additional note that there are no priority special moves apart from the uncommon Vacuum Wave) into Sylveon or Mew. With the ban of Iron Defense, Scolipede can't afford to boost in front of attack set up.

This would give offensive teams a better shot against BP. Stall teams would still have some trouble but in my opinion even stall is getting slightly monotonous with Chansey, Skarmory, Quagsire, and Venusaur on nearly every team with very few counters such a Medicham-Mega (which is checked by Sableye/Aegislash). Stall teams would still be a pain to offensive teams even if they had to include a BP counter or two. They could even include a single offensive setup.

So compared to the current uneven Baton Pass >> Stall >> Offensive Setup

It would become somewhat cyclic with Baton Pass > Stall > Offensive Setup > Baton Pass

I'd like to reiterate: Most scolo's run bold with 252 hp and 252 def. This means at +1 they only hit 390 speed. This leaves them outsped by +speed base 130s like jolteon and crobat, and more relevantly, deo-s and darn near every scarfer in the game. If you can outspeed scolo, scolo can't get his free subs or iron defense, which is part of the reason why he's so hard to take down in the first place.

 

[asbdsp]

It seems like a very popular solution is to limit the number of baton pass users to a certain number (3,4,5?). I see a couple of problems with this from a policy perspective.

First of all its a ban that's unprecedented in its nature and complexity. Secondly, it has the potential to backfire if creative teambuilders find a way to contravene the ban and use bp effectively with, for example 3 baton pass users and supporters. For example, imagine if we had attempted this approach in limiting the number of swagger users? It would have been disatrous, as the best swag teams didn't even have more than 2-3 users.

Alternatively, might I suggest a much simpler ban which will end up having the same effect of neutering bp without banning the move itself. Ban Espeon. Clearly this is the source of the brokenness of the strategy. Passing speed boosts isn't a problem, boosting defenses isn't a problem. It's the fact that you can't phaze the motherfuckers to get the reset that ends up putting it over the edge. Baton pass teams can still exist, but countering them with phazing is something that stall teams, among others can undoubtedly carry as a viable countermeasure to the strategy. Let me know if I'm missing something, but I feel like the simplest way to nip this thing in the bud would be to eliminate the worst, and most essential and irreplaceable offender in this strategy, Espeon.

 

[Rhaegar]

I'd like to reiterate: Most scolo's run bold with 252 hp and 252 def. This means at +1 they only hit 390 speed. This leaves them outsped by +speed base 130s like jolteon and crobat, and more relevantly, deo-s and darn near every scarfer in the game. If you can outspeed scolo, scolo can't get his free subs or iron defense, which is part of the reason why he's so hard to take down in the first place.

Do they? I don't think so. I'm not sure about what EVs most teams use but if I was playing BP I would max speed along with HP and hit 533 on +1, outspeeding Deoxys-S. The defense EVs don't matter as much since Iron Defense will be faster and just one hit needs to be survived before the pass.

 

[BrellowBran]

Didn't just lose against any team. Lost against a team which is repeatedly played by many users along with the same sets. Hundreds of players on the ladder have nearly identical teams on account of using Baton Pass. What it means is now you don't need any creativity to beat even the best of players. I'm sure most of us who have never even played BP have faced off against BP teams enough to be able to build the standard team perfectly and proceed to win.

When you give a standard set to different Pokemon, you challenge a person's team building skill in making a solid team, their playing skill with implementation of their team, and their multi-turn foresight and prediction in-game.
When you make an ENTIRE TEAM a standard, then originality, team building, skill, and prediction are dead.

Mostly the only way to beat them is with niche. And the counters you've stated are extremely niche, and not even dependable. You can't paralyze them since Espeon bounces. Red Card Ditto is not viable in OU, even Choice Scarf Ditto is not too common being quite predictable and is used more as a buffer to keep the other team on their toes.
The Whimsicott set isn't viable in OU either, because by choicing Encore you pretty much put yourself in encore as well. The strategic use of Whimsicott is to switch in to a set up, Encore it, and U-turn to scout their switch. Against BP teams, Leech Seed won't be much of a problem when there's Ingrain along with Leftovers recovery. Not to mention Aqua Ring on Vaporeon.

Even OU effective checks like Taunt Mega-Gyarados are given trouble with Dazzling Gleam on Espeon.

I still stand by Iron Defense + Baton Pass ban on Scolipede. It's a very small change that could have quite an impact. If not that, then the limit of 3-4 would be the best choice. Banning Speed Boost + BP or Magic Bounce and BP would take away the essence of their users and also affect offensive passing.

The point of infiltrator Whimsicott is to start off with switcheroo. If they use protect first round, they are forced to choose which pokemon you will shutdown with switcheroo. If the baton passer starts off with Smeargle, they will see a prankster, get scared and switch for a Scolipeed or Espeon, both of which are crucial to the team. Magic bounce or subs cannot block choice scarf infiltrator swicheroo. Meaning if Espeon or Scolipeed receive a scarf, they become useless. Stun Spore is very important because it will paralyze a passer but it won't hurt you if Espeon bounces it back.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

You guys seem to forget about Prankster Thundurus. That thing is a great counter to Baton Pass teams.

The set I'm talking about is this:

Thundurus @ Life Orb
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature

- Taunt
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice


Here's how it handles them:
Scolipede: 2HKOed by Thunderbolt, vulnerable to Taunt, can't do much with Megahorn
Espeon: 2HKOed by Thunderbolt, it can reflect Taunt but can't deny Nasty Plot, while Modest Thundurus can 2HKO Espeon even if Espeon tries to use Calm Mind:

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 195-230 (58.3 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 214-253 (64 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vaporeon: Vulnerable to Taunt, weak to Thunderbolt, gives Thundurus a free Nasty Plot.
Gliscor: Vulnerable to Taunt, OHKOed by HP Ice, gets set up on, can't really do much in return
Mew: Vulnerable to Taunt, gets set up on, 2HKOed by +2 Thunderbolt
(Mega) Scizor: Vulnerable to Taunt, can't do much in return.
Zapdos: A bit annoying for Thundurus since it can hurt it with its own Thunderbolt or HP Ice but it can still be easily Taunted and +2 Thunderbolt/HP Ice is an OHKO
Mr. Mime: Vulnerable to Taunt, can't really do much in return, gets set up on.
Celebi: It resists Thunderbolt and has great special defense, but it doesn't have Magic Bounce so Thundurus can set up on it and eventually destroy it with HP Ice.
Mega Absol: OHKOed by Thunderbolt, Sucker Punch can be played around with Nasty Plot. Thundurus can take a Sucker Punch anyway.
Sylveon: Specially defensive Sylveon can actually win 1-on-1 since it can take a Thunderbolt very well and 2HKoes with Hyper Voice, but it'll still get Taunted.
Ninjask: lol
Smeargle: lol
Drifblim: lol

In fact, Prankster Pokemon in general can take out many Baton Pass teams. Sableye resists both Stored Power AND HP Fighting, can also prevent Scolipede from Baton Passing Speed boosts, can put the hurt on Espeon with Foul Play even with Espeon's low base attack, and can Will-o-Wisp the physically-oriented members of the chain. Murkrow has access to both Taunt and Haze and is remotely bulky with an Eviolite, making it in my opinion the ultimate Baton Pass counter, but the problem with it is that it can't really do much against non-Baton Pass teams.

Another counter to Baton Pass, although really niche, is MB Druddigon with Roar, since it doesn't give a fuck about Espeon. Do note that Sylveon threatens it, so it's a good idea to pair it with a Scizor or a Metagross.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

We haven't forgotten Thundurus with Taunt. It's the most popular pokemon that reliably beats Baton Pass. You elaborated on it pretty well, so I'm just going to add that Baton Passing out into Espeon will NOT block the Taunt. Certain people (on the pro-ban side *cough*) seem to think that Prankster Taunt goes after Baton Pass, which is quite a big misconception. It's also worth noting that a lot of BP team members don't run attacking moves. Vaporeon runs Acid Armor, Sub, Baton Pass and Roar for example, the most negotiable move being Substitute. And even then giving up on such big Substitutes that are very difficult to break after some boosts is generally not worth running an offensive move like Scald for. Other pokemon that won't run offensive moves on BP teams are Mr. Mime, Smeargle, Mew, Scolipede, Mawile or Gliscor (might run EQ very rarely but it doesn't hit Thundurus). Keep in mind that everytime you try to do something else than Baton Passing, Thundurus could come in and Taunt you, essentially forcing you to switch out because you can't do anything but Struggle and start all over again. Such matches are really difficult for Baton Pass to win (I've done it before so it's not impossible, but it requires excellent prediction skills. Just saying this before someone brings up the auto-loss/auto-win nonsense again because as I'm saying, it all depends on skill. Thundurus just gives you an advantage against BP like Gothitelle is a huge help against Stall teams for example.)

 

[Agente X]

As many people have pointed out, baton pass can of course be stopped. But it is also true that it hinders de viability of a lot more teams that it should. The reason of the general disgust about baton pass may be (as was pointed out before) that the team is preconstructed and anybody can just use it and it's going to be effective (as has proven to be) as long as you play it right. A lot of proposals here make very much sense for me. Limiting the number of batton-passers in a team may work, but i am more inclined to just ban magic bounce on Espeon. The strategy gets to exist, and its going to have clear openings for people to approach in different kinds of teams.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

As many people have pointed out, baton pass can of course be stopped. But it is also true that it hinders de viability of a lot more teams that it should. The reason of the general disgust about baton pass may be (as was pointed out before) that the team is preconstructed and anybody can just use it and it's going to be effective (as has proven to be) as long as you play it right. A lot of proposals here make very much sense for me. Limiting the number of batton-passers in a team may work, but i am more inclined to just ban magic bounce on Espeon. The strategy gets to exist, and its going to have clear openings for people to approach in different kinds of teams.

Or just ban espeon, like we've always done

 

[Waltz01]

First of all its a ban that's unprecedented in its nature and complexity. Secondly, it has the potential to backfire if creative teambuilders find a way to contravene the ban and use bp effectively with, for example 3 baton pass users and supporters.

Unprecedented in it's nature and complexity? Certain Gen 3 rulesets involved a BP clause where no more than two BP pokemon can be used. That's a direct precedent. I agree with the second part of the quote, though: three BP users can be used in the same way that a team of four or five or six are. That's why the cap should be two: you cant have a broken chain with two pokemon.

You elaborated on it pretty well, so I'm just going to add that Baton Passing out into Espeon will NOT block the Taunt. Certain people (on the pro-ban side *cough*) seem to think that Prankster Taunt goes after Baton Pass, which is quite a big misconception.

Whew, I'm glad you're here to tell us how priority works! There's two main issues with this argument: First, you assume Thundurus can check every pokemon in a BP chain. What happens when Sylveon Calm Minds, then hits Thundurus with a Hyper Voice as it comes in to Taunt? Bp teams can just avoid going to their members without attacking moves until Thundurus is weakened or gone. The second, crippling misconception for the "BP is fine" side is the idea that a single Haze or Taunt stopping boosts is like an instant OHKO on every fucking pokemon on a BP team. Smart BP players get Hazed or Taunted, hit the Haze user or Taunter with a strong-enough move (Pixilate Hyper Voice, boosted Stored Power on Quasire) and then then set up the chain again, and again until the check is dead. Worst case scenario, a pokemon without attack moves gets Taunted, and they need to dry switch, rinse and repeat.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Whew, I'm glad you're here to tell us how priority works! There's two main issues with this argument: First, you assume Thundurus can check every pokemon in a BP chain. What happens when Sylveon Calm Minds, then hits Thundurus with a Hyper Voice as it comes in to Taunt? Bp teams can just avoid going to their members without attacking moves until Thundurus is weakened or gone. The second, crippling misconception for the "BP is fine" side is the idea that a single Haze or Taunt stopping boosts is like an instant OHKO on every fucking pokemon on a BP team. Smart BP players get Hazed or Taunted, hit the Haze user or Taunter with a strong-enough move (Pixilate Hyper Voice, boosted Stored Power on Quasire) and then then set up the chain again, and again until the check is dead. Worst case scenario, a pokemon without attack moves gets Taunted, and they need to dry switch, rinse and repeat.

But what if Thundurus uses Nasty Plot as you hard switch to, say, Sylveon?

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 222-263 (56.3 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now your Sylveon is no longer able to set up Calm Minds, and Thundurus can take a Hyper Voice pretty well. Also, the Thundurus user could have Scizor or Excadrill on their team to get rid of Sylveon.

 

[Waltz01]

But what if Thundurus uses Nasty Plot as you hard switch to, say, Sylveon?

What happens if the BP team isn't using Mr. Mime and instead has a hard counter to Thundurus waiting, like Chansey? Then Chnasey can dent Thundurus with Seismic Toss and taking nothing in return, forcing it out. It can use Wish to heal chain pokemon and use Heal Bell to resolve status. Now what?

 

[Mowtom]

Can we please stop arguing about what does and doesn't counter Baton Pass? Yes, it has counters. No, most of them are not OU viable in any other situation. Yes, some of them have uses outside of countering BP. The point is that the number of viable counters is so small that it restricts teambuilding. Therefore, we should nerf, not ban, nerf, Baton Pass until it does not restrict teambuilding to that extent any longer.