Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[Kairyu_Gen1]

I've personally been searching for a decent counter myself and I think I've found a pretty decent answer. Has anyone here ever tried Critzor?


Scizor (Crtizor)
-------------------
Focus Energy
Bullet Punch
Aerial Ace/Feint/Knock Off
U-Turn/Bug Bite
Ability: Technician
Item: Razor Claw
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Nature: Adamant

After a Focus Energy you won't have to worry about defense boosts since every single one of your moves will be guaranteed to crit while at stage 4. Espeon, Sylveon, and Scolipede have absolutely nothing on this guy. On a predicted switch into Smeargle, U-Turn out to break his sash and switch to a Grass/Insomnia/Vital Spirit mon with a priority attack to finish him off. Breloom is a great choice since he can handle Vaporeon who Scizor himself could possibly struggle against. Or if you decide to run Bug Bite over U-Turn, make sure to carry a Heal Bell/Aromatherapy poke in reserve to make your Scizor healthy again after bullet punching his sash away and being put to sleep with spore.

This seems to work well on paper but I have yet to test it myself. If Focus Energy Kingdra can become a thing, I see no reason why Scizor can't make the cut.

If Baton Pass remains as ridiculous as it is now, this, and all the other random things posted, is fine for people who need a specific counter.

But you sacrificed your item slot for a boost that is only 75% as strong as swords dance. This is what we're talking about with BP causing inferior sets and teams to be made.

 

[Seiterman]

I've personally been searching for a decent counter myself and I think I've found a pretty decent answer. Has anyone here ever tried Critzor?

We're so far beyond looking for counters at this point, but just to dismantle another one...

Lead Scolipede uses Iron Defense on turn one or protects/subs, any of these options result in a benefit to Scolipede. Aerial Ace cannot OHKO without a crit, and you aren't at all guaranteed to get that without using Focus Energy first. With a minimum of 1 Speed boost in tow, the Scolipede player will see you use Focus Energy and, understanding how crits work, likely BP to Vaporeon (or Zapdos,) who at worst will take a chunk from crit U-Turn (otherwise won't care.) If you switch to a Grass-type, they can just BP out with their speed boost.

No, it doesn't work.

No, it's not worth it when basically any other set on Scizor is more viable against the remainder of the metagame.

We don't need more suggested counters/checks. The basic agreement among people who are well-informed on the metagame is that BP needs a nerf of some kind. The issue at hand is deciding what kind of nerf is necessary.

 

[WebBowser]

Totally jacking Andrew 's idea here btw.

Out of curiosity, has anyone considered LO deo-S as a possible BP anti-lead? It outspeeds +1 scolo and ohko's easily with psycho boost, even at -2 spa. It can taunt everyone but espeon, whom it threatens with knock off. Virtually every other BP member (except sylveon) is at least threatened by psycho boost, if not ohko'd. The main reason why deo-s works as opposed to other offensive anti-leads is the fact that it literally forces a hard switch when it comes out, causing the chain to break. It even has a moveslot open for your preference of a third offensive move or SR, depending on what you need.

 

[Magnemite]

Totally jacking Andrew 's idea here btw.

Out of curiosity, has anyone considered LO deo-S as a possible BP anti-lead? It outspeeds +1 scolo and ohko's easily with psycho boost, even at -2 spa. It can taunt everyone but espeon, whom it threatens with knock off. Virtually every other BP member (except sylveon) is at least threatened by psycho boost, if not ohko'd. The main reason why deo-s works as opposed to other offensive anti-leads is the fact that it literally forces a hard switch when it comes out, causing the chain to break. It even has a moveslot open for your preference of a third offensive move or SR, depending on what you need.

That doesn't really work. Scoli outspeeds Deo-S at +1 and can just spam Sub and Protect until Deo is at -6, at which point it can just use Iron Defense a few times, after which Espeon takes Knock Off decently well. Also, LO Deo-S doesn't have room for both Taunt and Knock Off as it needs all 3 of Psycho Boost, Superpower, and Ice Beam in order to revenge kill everything it needs to, unless you think having a tiny chance at beating BP is worth not being able to beat either Tyranitar, Heatran, and Greninja or Landorus, Landorus-T, Gliscor, and Dragonite depending on which move you want to give up.

 

[Over Zealous]

They dont exactly have 4MSS by any means. There's more than enough room for a simple coverage move, especially for something with a mere 1 HP. Ol sheddy isn't a check or a counter in the least.

He doesn't understand what a check or counter is, and he also doesn't understand that it's irrelevant. Shedinja has no place on this thread, and digging up impractical niche Pokemon doesn't solve the current problem. Even spamming "But Pinsir and ThundurusLOL!" isn't useful; we know there are ways to check or counter Baton Pass chains, but does Baton Pass chains have 2 or more practical counters (not dedicated and obscure)? Does Baton Pass chains stifle the development of certain archetypes like stall? Does Baton Pass chains introduce a state of autonomy (self government to the Baton Pass player) and take away that autonomy from the metagame?

 

[Over Zealous]

Playing to win is competitive. Using a strategy that works is competitive. Showdown is a competitive simulator for competitive players, and if a strategy is consistent and effective, then by definition, it is competitive.

I would appreciate if people actually try to give some coherent arguments one way or the other here, rather than misuse convoluted buzzwords and pretend there's consensus where none exists.

"Uncompetitive game aspects (or strategies) are those that take away autonomy (control of the game's events), take it out of the hand's of player's decisions-- and do so to a degree that can be considered uncompetitive."

 

[JamesOnyx]

We're so far beyond looking for counters at this point, but just to dismantle another one...

Lead Scolipede uses Iron Defense on turn one or protects/subs, any of these options result in a benefit to Scolipede. Aerial Ace cannot OHKO without a crit, and you aren't at all guaranteed to get that without using Focus Energy first. With a minimum of 1 Speed boost in tow, the Scolipede player will see you use Focus Energy and, understanding how crits work, likely BP to Vaporeon (or Zapdos,) who at worst will take a chunk from crit U-Turn (otherwise won't care.) If you switch to a Grass-type, they can just BP out with their speed boost.

No, it doesn't work.

No, it's not worth it when basically any other set on Scizor is more viable against the remainder of the metagame.

We don't need more suggested counters/checks. The basic agreement among people who are well-informed on the metagame is that BP needs a nerf of some kind. The issue at hand is deciding what kind of nerf is necessary.

I will admit that baton pass needs some kind of nerf, but I'll just go ahead and make a counter argument to your "dismantle" of this strategy. If lead Scolipede goes for a iron defense as his first play, it doesn't help him in any way. A crit Knock Off not only takes a decent chunk out of Vaporeon on the switch:

252+ Atk Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon on a critical hit: 171-202 (36.8 - 43.5%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

But it will also remove its leftovers, making it far less capable of taking hits. Also, running bug bite gives you the possibility of a 2HKO (albeit very unlikely):

252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon on a critical hit: 240-283 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The best option Scolipede has when it encounters Critzor is Sub on the first turn, which gives him plenty of options on turn 2. Although, any pokemon that comes in afterwards won't have a sub anymore. All of Critzors options have the capability of taking out a sub in one shot from any poke on a BP Team. Which it can then procede to Bullet Punch for massive damage:

• 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scolipede on a critical hit: 178-211 (54.9 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon on a critical hit: 458-542 (116.2 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon on a critical hit: 246-289 (90.4 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
• 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Smeargle on a critical hit: 360-424 (114.6 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime on a critical hit: 458-542 (161.2 - 190.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If Baton Pass remains as ridiculous as it is now, this, and all the other random things posted, is fine for people who need a specific counter.

But you sacrificed your item slot for a boost that is only 75% as strong as swords dance. This is what we're talking about with BP causing inferior sets and teams to be made.

I will admit most of the time it's straight up inferior to it's SD set, but it does come out on top of Curse/Bulk Up attempts. Although defensive boosting is pretty rare when outside of BP, it still occurs on occasion. Not the best excuse though and I see where you're coming from.

 

[Seiterman]

If lead Scolipede goes for a iron defense as his first play, it doesn't help him in any way.

I mean, if doubled defense isn't considered helping him in any way, then sure, I guess. If Scizor were guaranteed to stay around the whole match, then it wouldn't help. However, that's two more stages of boosts for the chain as a whole. If you go with Focus Energy on the first turn, he can still Protect/Sub on subsequent turns to gain speed boosts, and if you Aerial Ace the first turn you'll only be doing a max of 43.8% without a lucky (not guaranteed, because you haven't boosted yet,) crit. If you go with Bullet Punches instead, Scolipede will likely have a Substitute up before it passes next.

You're not doing anything to stop Scolipede from passing to the next recipient, often with a few speed boosts in tow (and maybe Iron Defense.)

Now, depending on what you run, you could maybe stop Vaporeon. Depends. The other big stop, though, is Zapdos, who has no qualms taking any of the main options on your set, is a big part of Baton Pass, and can even OHKO with Heat Wave if it so desires. A 2HKO with Thunderbolt is also likely.

If Critzor goes down, the chain continues as normal and wins.

I appreciate the thought you're putting into your arguments (and I'll concede that Vaporeon really isn't the best answer to Critzor,) but it isn't enough to be a serious answer to the team archetype nor is it of any benefit to anti-ban parties.

 

[KenKong]

The most viable counter (not extremely viable cause it took up a spot and I dont really like Chandelure) to BP teams I've used so far is a Clear Smog Infiltrator Chandelure (both scarfed and nonscarfed). I have to say its better that Malamar and Musharna but still its not really something that you want/need on a team. BP definetly deserves a nerf in some way. The best nerf I have seen so far is making sure that Magic Bounce is not on teams so making sure that HA Espeon + BP is not run seems like the best way to perserve the playing style while also allowing phazing as a vialble option to BP teams.

 

[branflakes]

Wait is the argument here that baton pass is broken?

The reason the metagame struggles to beat Baton Pass is because it isn't commonly seen. There are lots of viable sets that can be used to combat BP is it became popular enough -- just because it is struggling now doesn't mean Baton Pass is broken. It's simply not used enough for the metagame to bother adjusting.

I suppose that we should all teambuild and prepare for threats like Seimsitoad, because while no one ever uses it, it could certainly be a threat!!

(In this instance, I think usage is a strong argument. When the usage stats are as low as this, when Smogon is advertising Baton Pass and players still aren't using it, I think that says something.)

This post leads me to believe that you didn't even bother to look at a single page in this thread.

In the current BP-focused ladder, using Baton Pass is only somewhat reliable but STILL entirely matchup based. I am currently laddering at around 1800 (where you no longer see shit like musharna and malamar), and I can consistently win roughly 75% of my matches based on match-up alone using Baton Pass. This also takes into account Thundurus-I being on nearly every team I'm up against.

I would argue that Baton Pass is broken, and that it is used fairly often at the top of the ladder (especially 1850+) but this is debatable. However, while there are legitimate counterarguments to Baton Pass being broken, I fail to see how the strategy isn't completely toxic to the metagame's development. The impact it has on the metagame as a whole is obviously bad, but some types of teams are affected much worse than others.

Impact on offense: As BP usage/awareness increases, fully offensive team usage increases as a result. Also, Thundurus-I/Mega Pinsir usage increases. Thundurus-I in particular has very few defensive counters outside of Spdef Hippowdon and Bulky Zard X, especially considering that Knock Off severely punishes almost anything else. Offensive teams generally have the best match-up against Baton Pass, but only if Baton Pass is specifically accounted for. The biggest difference between offensive vs stall checks to Baton Pass is that most offensive checks are viable outside of dealing with BP. While the impact of BP on full offense is the least detrimental, it still limits offensive team building and rarely has an unfavorable matchup against any offensive teams, unless the team has Thundurus AND Pinsir/Talonflame or the specific anti-BP Thundurus set with both Nasty Plot and Taunt.

Impact on stall and semistall: Stall really gets the shitty end of the stick when it comes to Baton Pass. The cookie-cutter stall cores consisting of Skarmory, Chansey, Venusaur, Heatran and Aegislash have little hope of breaking any BP chains. That is, unless the stall team carries one of the very few unreliable and unorthodox answers to Baton Pass: Taunt Sableye and Haze Unaware Quagsire. Barring anything even more obscure, these two pokemon are the ONLY defensive answers to Baton Pass that are still viable in the metagame, which means that top-performing stall teams NEED to have them (see: overcentralizing) and still struggle.

Impact on balanced: Balanced teams lack the ability to exert as much pressure as offensive teams can exert against Baton Pass, and thus balanced teams need to rely on specific pokemon to get the job done. A vast majority of the setup-sweepers in the tier can be handled by Vaporeon and/or Smeargle (roar and spore respectively), which means that balanced teams usually need at least one member that is tailored to beating Baton Pass. The matchup between balanced and BP is heavily in BP's favor, because balanced teams are completely reliant on members such as the aforementioned Thundurus-I, Pinsir, Quagsire and Sableye, as well as a few other viable answers including Talonflame and Taunt Mega Gyarados. Unlike offensive teams, balanced teams have little chance of falling back on offensive pressure if their BP check can't get the job done itself.

Impact on bulky offense: This suffers from the same problems as balanced. High speed, power and offensive pressure are exchanged for defensive typings and bulk, both of which are completely useless against BP.

tldr Baton Pass severely limits metagame development and variety in teambuilding. It has no business being part of OU.

 

[WebBowser]

That doesn't really work. Scoli outspeeds Deo-S at +1 and can just spam Sub and Protect until Deo is at -6, at which point it can just use Iron Defense a few times, after which Espeon takes Knock Off decently well. Also, LO Deo-S doesn't have room for both Taunt and Knock Off as it needs all 3 of Psycho Boost, Superpower, and Ice Beam in order to revenge kill everything it needs to, unless you think having a tiny chance at beating BP is worth not being able to beat either Tyranitar, Heatran, and Greninja or Landorus, Landorus-T, Gliscor, and Dragonite depending on which move you want to give up.

Actually, scolo does not outspeed Deo-S at +1, not phys defensive scolo at least. Phys defensive scolo gets to 390 speed at +1. Deo-S, with no speed investment, hits 396 speed, outspeeding scolo and ohkoing before the sub.

The rest of what you said is valid, but if a BP user leads scolo into ANY deo-s with psycho boost, not just an LO deo-s, deo-s forces a hard swap.

 

[TheWhiteRose]

I'm already on the upper ladder as we speak. I don't see any of this baton pass crap everyone is complaining about. I'd like some actual usage stats (calculated from this "High Ladder") to prove that it is boosting in popularity from last month to this month, etc.

Seismitoed was obviously a small example, and it's a stall threat, so it's not going to 6-0 teams by itself so stop with the propoganda bullshit, but it could effectively stop you from winning depending on your team, of course, since it could wall the right threats; kinda like how Rhyperior can stop Talonflame long enough for the team to win.



I wasn't trying to say that Seismitoad was the equivalent of Baton Pass, OK. I was simply stating that Baton Pass is probably used just as much as Seismitoed, and that is why most teams are unprepared. If you are unprepared for anything it could be your downfall. Obviously Baton Pass punishes teams that are unprepared much more effectively then Seimitoed that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

I'll address answers to Baton Pass using OU Pokemon after I've laddered enough for my liking, but will stay silent on the matter for now.

Hold up there. When Gen 6 was beta and people were arguing about banning mega gengar, did you know that no one in top 10 used it in their team. Sure its, usage was fairly decent but I'm sure the comments have already gave quite abit of examples on how usage doesn't really matter if a Pokemon is worthy of a ban or not. (There are kids out there playing this too).
I definitely agree with Leer that limiting BP to 3 per team or even 2 will definitely be a good solution, if not the best. I still don't see why people are arguing that baton pass isn't strong. Also, don't bother posting,about specific counters (haze quagsire, prankster volbeat and critmons) because that would still make BP worthy of a ban as the entire metagame would have to shift to prepare for BP teams, otherwise you lose. And as for rock-paper-scissors arguments, Pokemon is much more complex than that. Stall can beat offense and vice versa, its really about how well you play them. Its not set in stone. You may argue that BP teams can be beaten if you play well, but in MOST scenarios, you will lose if you don't have the right moves and pokemons. I say we do a suspect test?

 

[Nimbus125]

I say it should get nerfed, either Magic Bounce + BP or limit the amount of BPers on your team.
And as for people who say Baton Pass is not a strong strategy, is not dumb and hard to play against, and is easily countered, go look at one of Denissss's replays. I would link the 70ish turn long battle one here but I couldn't find it.. But his replays show how long and drawn out they can get, with the battle either ending with Denissss forfeiting because finally the opponent got lucky and he lost one pokemon, or with the other person forfeitting because they just gave up.

 

[TheGhost983]

Probably pretty late to this thread but I can see why people get upset about Baton Pass. I always thought it would be stupid to do anything about it, until I got a few battles with it myself (ones with good players). In those battles it went either way, me starting up a chain and just plowing through the opponent, or me just getting demolished (if you can't start a chain you just lose). However, I'm still of the opinion that Baton Pass is not broken. No you don't have to run Haze Quagsire or something stupid just to counter it. One of Baton Pass's biggest downfalls is its predictibilty. You know they're gonna lead with Scolipede, you know they're gonna set up Iron Defense and Sub+Protect stall. So just lead with something that beats it. It would be pointless to list all the things that beat Scoli, or any of the other Baton Pass staples. As long as you don't let them get the momentum you already have the game.

 

[Toljik]

Probably pretty late to this thread but I can see why people get upset about Baton Pass. I always thought it would be stupid to do anything about it, until I got a few battles with it myself (ones with good players). In those battles it went either way, me starting up a chain and just plowing through the opponent, or me just getting demolished (if you can't start a chain you just lose). However, I'm still of the opinion that Baton Pass is not broken. No you don't have to run Haze Quagsire or something stupid just to counter it. One of Baton Pass's biggest downfalls is its predictibilty. You know they're gonna lead with Scolipede, you know they're gonna set up Iron Defense and Sub+Protect stall. So just lead with something that beats it. It would be pointless to list all the things that beat Scoli, or any of the other Baton Pass staples. As long as you don't let them get the momentum you already have the game.

What happens when your opponent notices your Scolipede counter and sends out something else?

 

[TheGhost983]

What happens when your opponent notices your Scolipede counter and sends out something else?

As in they lead with something else or try to switch out Scolipede?

 

[Xanthus]

I want Baton Pass banned because it gives people all the speed,attack, and special attack they need to use and win with just one pokemon.

 

[Quick]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-110739069

This has already been posted, but I really think more people need to watch this.

Stall gets murdered by baton pass and in this case the stall player is:

• carrying not one but TWO counters to baton pass (Haze Quagsire and Clear Smog Amoonguss)
• someone who is consistently at the top or near top of the ladder.

How can anyone watch this and still think BP isn't broken?

 

[jbtc10]

Because both of those are bad counters to BP, and he should feel bad for using them. He deserved to lose because he didn't construct the team he was using to adequately handle the leading threats in the metagame, and team construction is just as important, if not more, than team utilization. The metagame doesn't owe stall anything; if it happens to have a bad matchup against another play style or team archetype, then it needs to do something about that itself.

 

[Magnemite]

Because both of those are bad counters to BP, and he should feel bad for using them. He deserved to lose because he didn't construct the team he was using to adequately handle the leading threats in the metagame, and team construction is just as important, if not more, than team utilization. The metagame doesn't owe stall anything; if it happens to have a bad matchup against another play style or team archetype, then it needs to do something about that itself.

What? Haze Quagsire is the only even remotely "viable" "counter" (besides Taunt Thundurus, which obviously doesn't fit onto stall) brought up by the anti ban side in this thread and you have the nerve to call someone out for using it? He didn't construct the team adequately to beat BP because it's impossible to construct a team adequately to beat BP. If there are almost no usable counters to something, and even those counters can't beat it with any sort of consistency, that thing is not only broken, but it is far beyond broken. After 57 pages of brainstorming, there is still literally only ONE counter to BP. Honestly, I'm struggling to see how BP could be any more broken at this point.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

I said this earlier, but I think it's an important point to emphasize: When nerfing Baton Pass, we should consider the many uses of Baton Pass.
Here are the varying uses of Baton Pass and some common examples of each:

• Escaping Mechanic: Espeon can use Baton Pass to avoid Pursuit. Scizor can use Baton Pass to avoid Magnet Pull.
• Switch Initiative: Jolteon can use Baton Pass to scout the opponents switch and then choose a more favorable match up.
• Quick Pass: Gorebyss, Smeagle, Scolipede, and Volbeat can pass a teammate a large stat boosts to allow them to sweep easily. (common tactic in B/W)
• Chain Pass: A team of 5 Baton Passers can pass a mixed sweeper a large amounts of boosts to make an unstoppable force. (common tactic in D/P)
• Defensive Pass: A team of 6 Baton Passers can stack up defensive boosts until they can sweep with Stored Power and boosted STAB attacks. (common tactic in X/Y)

Please note:
- Defensive Pass teams are the reason this thread was created.
- Unconditionally banning Baton Pass removes all the above uses of Baton Pass.
- Limiting the number of Baton Passers on a team eliminates the entire play style of Chain Pass and Defensive Pass.
- Simply Banning Baton Pass + Magic Bounce or Speed Boost + Baton Pass will hurt Espeon and Scolipede as individual Pokemon.
- Banning Stored Power + Baton Pass will remove a large portion of offensive power from Defensive Baton Pass teams, but will also hurt Espeon as a stand alone setup sweeper.

If we want to nerf Baton Pass without removing any of its unique uses in the meta, we will undoubtedly be looking at a series of complex bans based on the number of Baton Passers (i.e. As the number of Baton Passers on your team increases, more limitations are imposed on you).

 

[branflakes]

I disagree Magnemite

There are multiple viable mons that give Baton Pass teams a lot of trouble while they're beginning a chain. The problem is that most of these "BP checks" belong on offensive teams, namely Thundurus, Pinsir and Talonflame. Offensive teams can be easily constructed to beat Baton Pass, though this usually limits the team's general effectiveness to an extent. More importantly, whether or not Baton Pass is truly "broken", it strongly discourages the use of stall or bulky teams in general. I can't emphasize enough that stall/semistall is practically nonviable without Haze Quagsire as long as Baton Pass remains prevalent at the upper end of the ladder. There is no way this can be seen as a good thing from a neutral perspective (idgaf if you hate stall)

 

[Shadow2684]

"Switch Initiative: Jolteon can use Baton Pass to scout the opponents switch and then choose a more favorable match up."

Or you could just, you know, Switch? What advantage does Jolteon get by using a move that isn't even useful for him (is he so scared of pursuit users?).

Just limit BP to 3 users, it limits your options to use Scolipede, Smeargle and probably Vaporeon and it becomes a lot more manageable.

 

[Banded Blissey]

imo anything that makes stall less viable is a-ok with me
joking aside, BP really is borked and needs a nerf of some kind
Seeing as the big culprits are Espeon and Scolipede, I see 2 solutions
Ban BP+Speed Boost OR ban BP+Stored Power
I'm more in favor of the second option, as it applies to more than just espeon, sylveon also typically runs stored power to sweep as a backup.

 

[TheNextDimentions]

My two cents is limit how many boosts a Pokemon has at one time. Do I have to explain much more?

EDIT: In addition carrying a choice scarf ditto isn't a deadweight on a team anyway, is it? Wouldn't that cause baton pass teams to fear enough?