Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

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To keep it simple, there's 3 options (assuming you've noticed that BP is in fact a bad thing); Defensive BP chains are inherently uncompetitive and should be banned (a limit of 2 BP users per team), the current cookie-cutter team of BP is uncompetitive, and needs to be nerfed (a limit of 3 BP users per team), or that individual members of the team make it broken (insert ban here).
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
After two calm minds:

0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Mental Herb Scolipede can near-guarantee you the same type of boosts, calm mind once and you easily break Quagsire, so Quagsire is not a good BP counter unless it has Haze. In which case it's pretty good, but still.
 

Andrew

beep boop
is a Top Artist Alumnus
I really really don't get why we're still talking about the almighty COUNTERS to baton pass. Haze Quagsire, Imprison Musharna, Topsy Turvy Malamar....I mean come on, it's just bullshit. In the past 62 pages these "counters" have been dissected ad infinitum, especially Quagsire. I mean, I get that every one doesn't have the time to read all that, and that some people are just coming into this thread...but do we really need to keep this open/going any more if we're just repeating the same exact things that have been said 100 times before?
 
Has anyone considered the fact that Quagsire completely counters BP teams? Unaware, Recover, Stockpile, and good damage in EQ and waterfall.
Other than that I wouldn't mind a Espeon+BP ban OR a Scolipede+BP ban but a Blanket Ban cuts out too much (A.K.A bulky pokemon that use it like a shed shell).
I don't think you have read anything in this thread. Quagsire cannot take an Espeons stored power when espeon has 6 stat boosts. It also cannot take a sylveons hyper voice. The only way Quag can do anything to BP is using Haze, which is redundant af and has no use outside checking BP.

Also to the people who again have been saying "BP isn't common" I urge you to ladder to a respectable rank and then you might see. It was also embarrassingly common on the last suspect ladder.
 

scorpdestroyer

it's a skorupi egg
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Posting to say that just because something isn't common doesn't mean it's not broken. We banned Swagger when it didn't invade OU entirely, last gen Assist + Prankster in NU and Gothitelle in UU were also banned despite being uncommon. Even if there weren't any precedents you could just stop to think and realize that common/uncommon is not an excuse to keep something if it's broken.

I'd disagree with a Scolipede ban cos Ninjask can pull this off just as easily even if it's more difficult to do so.

Regarding Andrew's post on random Taunters, I agree that it's viable but if the very presence of BP chains leave you with literally no choice but to run Taunt then I think something is wrong. Since everyone in this thread likes precedents so much: in NU last gen, Assist + Prankster Liepard pretty much forced every single Musharna user to run Signal Beam instead of another very viable support move or get completely ran over because it allows Liepard to set up Nasty Plot while constantly phazing it back in, and even then still stood a chance of losing. BP chains are the same; you're forced to run Taunt on random stuff like M-Gyarados, M-Mawile etc or you'll lose guaranteed, and can still lose if the opponent happened to have their +1 Speed Smeargle or Sylveon or Taunt user in at the same moment, which tbh isn't too difficult considering how Baton Pass works.
 
I propose that we do a Magic Bounce + Speed Boost complex ban. This is because (as I understand it) the presence of MB makes it very difficult to phaze or Taunt the Baton Pass user. Speed Boost also makes it nigh impossible to outspeed and Taunt Scolipede before it Baton Passes to a MB user. This way, Espeon and Scolipede can still maintain their niche in OU. Also, banning Baton Pass on Espeon makes it unable to escape Pursuit while limiting the number of Baton Pass users sound neat but the numbers quoted are arbitrary (so far it's 3, 4 or 5). We still face problems on being unable to phaze / Taunt the new member whom the team member passes to.(Yes, I know it has fewer users but you now have to guess which member is carrying Baton Pass which allows the team to pick their counters. This is similar to Keldeo in BW2 where the Pokemon it loses to depends on its Hidden Power type)
 
Taunt on random/all your pokemon won't solve the problem. A lead Prankster Taunt can *sort* of stop a lead Scolipede from setting up or a lead Smeargle from Sporing, but a switch to Espeon will bounce the Taunt back to you, and leaves the BP Team free to start setting up the BP chain your face. Is there a Prankster Taunter who can break Espeon's Substitutes? And if you overpredict the switch to Espeon and start attacking, and instead they Spore/set-up a Sub, then you're screwed. Even with a Prankster Taunt, the possibilities favor the BP Team. BP chains are way more forgiving of mistakes than other team archetypes in OU right now, and I think it's possible for one of our programmers to come up with a script that can ladder up high using a BP chain because there are very few difficult choices to make when playing a BP Team.
 
My only worry is that if we do ban magic guard + baton pass then espeon is easily pursuit trapped as it can't baton pass away from it. IMO just ban teams that have 2 or more baton passers.
 
So I noticed that precedent has been invoked a lot on this thread, and I would like to invoke one specific bit of precedent to make a specific argument.

That precedent is wobbuffet.

In case you were not aware of the competitive scene in earlier gens(I certainly wasn't), wobbuffet was a pokemon that was given a rather infamous ability back in gen 3 known as shadow tag. Shadow tag had the ability to prevent the enemy pokemon from swapping out while the mon with shadow tag is on the field(no one was immune). This alone made wobbuffet very powerful. However, wobbuffet was not, and still is not, a mon that you could just throw on any given team. Wobbuffet has 5 or 6 viable moves, total, and none of them are what we would consider "damage" moves. Indeed, outside of encore and maybe destiny bond, none of the moves you typically see on wobb appear on any other pokemon worth using. This means he had no real offensive presence, and that Wobbuffet needed a lot of support to capitalize on his strengths and mitigate his weaknesses in order to be broken. Things that wobb needs really badly to function well included...

1. A wish passer: want to trap anything that had any offensive presence whatsoever more then once? Yeah, you want one of these. Given his monstrous 160+ base hp stat, you need some fat wish passes too.

2. A special wall: gotta have something to swap into those pesky dark types trying to take advantage of mirror coat immunity

3. A pursuit trapper / very scary setup sweeper: It's actually pretty rare for wobb to be able to outright kill something, so you need someone who can come in on an encore locked mon and either deal heavy damage with pursuit or setup in it's face.

4. Status Absorber / heal beller: Very frequently, people status wobb. If wobb encores them, that pretty much gaurantees that the swap in will get statused too. You need a way to either fix that or take advantage of it (preferably the latter with a gutsmon)

That's four seperate roles with little to no overlap (yes I know blissey could fill 3 of those, that's not the point). Wobbuffet literally had 1 viable set, 2 or 3 at most, and his most viable set was NOT something you could throw onto any team and expect that team to be better. Wobbuffet required a huge amount of team support to the point where any team with wobb on it had to basically be built around wobbuffet. And yet, he was broken. When correctly used, wobb had little to no counterplay. At worst, he gauruntees his team a free turn at the cost of wobb and some other mon getting statused a little (which you can take advantage of with smart teambuilding). At best, he takes out a mon for about half his own hp, which is more then enough to receive a wishpass from blissey and do it again. These easy free turns are why wobbuffet was banned (that and the gen 3 wobb vs wobb struggle battles that were just painful to watch), despite being exceedingly team reliant and borderline awful on teams not built around supporting and taking advantage of wobbuffet.

So before I get modded for off-topic posting, here's the moral of the story. Why should'nt we ban scolopede/espeon? These two quintessential BP mons absolutely depend on their team to be strong, but with team support, they provide a huge number of free turns and/or the ability for the rest of the team to create free turns, making them too powerful, just like wobbuffet. Wobbuffet alone could only sweep the worst of players. Against most players, it is rare for wobb to directly net even one kill without relying on his trusty ttar to save the day. How is scolopede or espeon any different?

And before ANYONE here tries to accuse me of this, I am NOT advocating for wobb to be rebanned. I am just using this anecdote as "precedent" and am asking how this situation is different.

*edit*

scorpdestroyer regarding this quote "I'd disagree with a Scolipede ban cos Ninjask can pull this off just as easily even if it's more difficult to do so." What exactly do you mean? It sounds like you are contradicting yourself (how can something else "pull off" an action just as easily if it is more difficult to pull off said action?). I ask not to be a pedantic little prick, but because scolopede fulfills an additional role as well as speed passing. That is defense boosting. Basically, thanks to iron defense and his blistering 390 speed at +1, he can actually setup iron defense against even the most powerful physical threats. Even monsters like mega heracross with rock blast cannot hope to even come close to an OHKO without some hax, allowing scolo to pass +2 speed and +2 defense to whoever he feels like. This is in front of a friggen mega heracross, most other OU physical "threats" are outright setup bait for scolo. Tell me, how many OU threats, physical, defensive, or otherwise, can be considered "setup bait" for ninjask? Ninjask considers itself lucky if it can pass just it's speed boost, let alone speed boost + any sort of defensive buffs (even if it did run harden, it simply does not have the stats).
 
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So I noticed that precedent has been invoked a lot on this thread, and I would like to invoke one specific bit of precedent to make a specific argument.

That precedent is wobbuffet.

In case you were not aware of the competitive scene in earlier gens(I certainly wasn't), wobbuffet was a pokemon that was given a rather infamous ability back in gen 3 known as shadow tag. Shadow tag had the ability to prevent the enemy pokemon from swapping out while the mon with shadow tag is on the field(no one was immune). This alone made wobbuffet very powerful. However, wobbuffet was not, and still is not, a mon that you could just throw on any given team. Wobbuffet has 5 or 6 viable moves, total, and none of them are what we would consider "damage" moves. Indeed, outside of encore and maybe destiny bond, none of the moves you typically see on wobb appear on any other pokemon worth using. This means he had no real offensive presence, and that Wobbuffet needed a lot of support to capitalize on his strengths and mitigate his weaknesses in order to be broken. Things that wobb needs really badly to function well included...

1. A wish passer: want to trap anything that had any offensive presence whatsoever more then once? Yeah, you want one of these. Given his monstrous 160+ base hp stat, you need some fat wish passes too.

2. A special wall: gotta have something to swap into those pesky dark types trying to take advantage of mirror coat immunity

3. A pursuit trapper / very scary setup sweeper: It's actually pretty rare for wobb to be able to outright kill something, so you need someone who can come in on an encore locked mon and either deal heavy damage with pursuit or setup in it's face.

4. Status Absorber / heal beller: Very frequently, people status wobb. If wobb encores them, that pretty much gaurantees that the swap in will get statused too. You need a way to either fix that or take advantage of it (preferably the latter with a gutsmon)

That's four seperate roles with little to no overlap (yes I know blissey could fill 3 of those, that's not the point). Wobbuffet literally had 1 viable set, 2 or 3 at most, and his most viable set was NOT something you could throw onto any team and expect that team to be better. Wobbuffet required a huge amount of team support to the point where any team with wobb on it had to basically be built around wobbuffet. And yet, he was broken. When correctly used, wobb had little to no counterplay. At worst, he gauruntees his team a free turn at the cost of wobb and some other mon getting statused a little (which you can take advantage of with smart teambuilding). At best, he takes out a mon for about half his own hp, which is more then enough to receive a wishpass from blissey and do it again. These easy free turns are why wobbuffet was banned (that and the gen 3 wobb vs wobb struggle battles that were just painful to watch), despite being exceedingly team reliant and borderline awful on teams not built around supporting and taking advantage of wobbuffet.

So before I get modded for off-topic posting, here's the moral of the story. Why should'nt we ban scolopede/espeon? These two quintessential BP mons absolutely depend on their team to be strong, but with team support, they provide a huge number of free turns and/or the ability for the rest of the team to create free turns, making them too powerful, just like wobbuffet. Wobbuffet alone could only sweep the worst of players. Against most players, it is rare for wobb to directly net even one kill without relying on his trusty ttar to save the day. How is scolopede or espeon any different?

And before ANYONE here tries to accuse me of this, I am NOT advocating for wobb to be rebanned. I am just using this anecdote as "precedent" and am asking how this situation is different.
Wobbugget was banned because Wobbuffet was the broken aspect, and all this support (which it didn't really need if you just wanted to take out a specific threat) was just helping it perform even better. Wish passing, special walls, status absorbers weren't broken, shadow tag was the only thing broken. The obvious thing to ban was Wobbuffet, as banning it only hurt itself and shadow tag trapping (things that weren't wanted anyways) and had no collateral damage otherwise. The situation with BP is completely different, as Baton Pass itself isn't remotely broken, and it also has many legitimate uses. It is only a dedicated BP team in which it can be abused.
 
Wobbugget was banned because Wobbuffet was the broken aspect, and all this support (which it didn't really need if you just wanted to take out a specific threat) was just helping it perform even better. Wish passing, special walls, status absorbers weren't broken, shadow tag was the only thing broken. The obvious thing to ban was Wobbuffet, as banning it only hurt itself and shadow tag trapping (things that weren't wanted anyways) and had no collateral damage otherwise. The situation with BP is completely different, as Baton Pass itself isn't remotely broken, and it also has many legitimate uses. It is only a dedicated BP team in which it can be abused.
I wasn't even comparing wobb to BP, I was comparing wobb to scolopede. I could argue, correctly or otherwise, that the broken aspect of BP teams is not BP itself, but scolopede, who has the ability to setup against many prominent offensive and defensive threats while at the same time enabling the rest of his team to create as many free turns as the team needs to setup.
 
I wasn't even comparing wobb to BP, I was comparing wobb to scolopede. I could argue, correctly or otherwise, that the broken aspect of BP teams is not BP itself, but scolopede, who has the ability to setup against many prominent offensive and defensive threats while at the same time enabling the rest of his team to create as many free turns as the team needs to setup.
Outside of a defensive BP team, Scoliopede isn't broken whatsoever, and there's no guarantee that banning Scoliopede will make BP teams manageable again, especially for stall teams. Wobbuffet was just straight up broken in gen III, as there was no team preview so you could play smart with important mons you didn't want KO'd and there was no u-turn/volt-switch to escape it. Status wasn't a huge problem for it, as it got to chose what mons it wanted to come in on anyways.
 
I think we can all agree that BP teams need nerfing. What we can't agree on though, is how to do it. The obvious solutions are to ban using >X amount of pokes with BP or to ban Scolipede or Espeon from OU or to disallow use of certain combinations of Scoli and Espeon. However, a solution that just came to me seems ridiculously simple and effective is to simply ban a certain move combo on one essential poke. For example, if we banned use of Protect/Substitute/BP/Speed Boost on Scolipede, it wouldn't really affect much except BP teams, meaning that Scoli wouldn't be any less viable in any way except his BP role. On the flip side, it would make setting up much harder, but not impossible for BP teams. Without the speed boost, set up and sweeping could be much harder, but not so hard as to make it unviable. What do you guys think?

Btw, I didn't read the entire 1,600 or so messages on the thread already. But something still needs to be done, so I figured I'd help make this thread way longer then it needs to be.
 

Andrew

beep boop
is a Top Artist Alumnus
Wobbugget was banned because Wobbuffet was the broken aspect, and all this support (which it didn't really need if you just wanted to take out a specific threat) was just helping it perform even better. Wish passing, special walls, status absorbers weren't broken, shadow tag was the only thing broken. The obvious thing to ban was Wobbuffet, as banning it only hurt itself and shadow tag trapping (things that weren't wanted anyways) and had no collateral damage otherwise. The situation with BP is completely different, as Baton Pass itself isn't remotely broken, and it also has many legitimate uses. It is only a dedicated BP team in which it can be abused.
I think part of what you're saying WebBowser, is that Espeon and/or Scolipede are the most important members of the baton pass team. Of course the move Baton Pass isn't broken by itself, like you say rachet67, it's only when used on a dedicated BP team. But what is the broken part of it? Will removing one important member from the chain, such as espeon, solve the problem? Or is it better to limit the number of users, or doing some other complex ban, so that no specific pokemon is hindered? Also, if it was on the same pokemon, then espeon or Absol wouldn't be able to short pass, if anyone actually does that, js.

Tbh, the more this thread/debate goes on, the more I lean to just a simple ban of Espeon or Scolipede. Espeon has 2 roles at most in OU - bouncing hazards/status and a dual screens set that is mostly outclassed by Deo-S. I've played a few matches with a baton pass team lacking espeon, and it was more difficult. You can't evade taunt, roar/whirlwind(unless mime or ingrain) etc, you don't have your primary stored power sweeper. The problem with this I see is that people might resort to using M-Absol, who has a turn of vulnerability, but can still pass calm mind and bounce. This is what leads to the thinking of "Well, maybe banning Magic Bounce + Baton pass on the same team/pokemon would be better", which is complex. This means either: 1. Espeon could be on a BP team but would have to be only a reciever - or 2. Espeon can't be on a team that has another pokemon that knows baton pass. #2 avoids the "escaping pursuit" argument, but starts to get even more complex.

3rd Paragraph: Banning Scolipede: BP chains are still intact, but they have to use Ninjask, who is 4x weak to SR, less bulky than scoli, and cannot boost defense at the same time as speed. This subtracts the multidimensional aspect that Scolipede provides, but BP chains are still able to boost their speed reliably, with Zapdos or Gliscor. I've played a few games without Speed Boosters (haven't used just Ninjask yet)...and honestly it's not that hard to get one agility in, and then be able to outspeed most pokemon and continue your sweep. I don't think banning Scolipede would really work out in the long run. He makes it a little easier, but he's not totally necessary. Then we get to the same thing as above - is it "ban speed boost + baton pass on the same pokemon" or "ban speed boost in conjuction with other baton passers on the same team. The first means Scoli can never baton pass again, the second means, well, Scoli can still boost and pass, just not on a team with other baton passers. Really it's just getting more confusing and complex, at least for me.

4th Para: I don't really want to say anything about limiting the number of passers atm (of which 3 has been brought up by many), just because a lot has already been said about this. A lot of ppl support this, myself included, but there is severe backlash from ppl who want to keep the defensive chain passing style in tact. Limiting to three would mean, choose Espeon and Scoli, then either Smeargle/Vaporeon/Sylveon - and you get your defense, special, speed and magic bounce all in one. Then choose final receivers, or throw a support mon in there. I think of this style as a more offensive baton pass, where you can chain but in smaller amounts, where you might be forced to restart the chain several times, pass to a sweeper, and if he's impeded, start over again. IMO I think this would be good for BP as it would really shake it up a bit and break it out of the mold - it is still very powerful, as Espeon and Scoli are great partners by themselves. continued below -->

I've been trying to think of a real life analogy to the defensive baton pass style, and I'll share my two closest ideas/imaginations -

1. A baton pass chain is like a man who starts eating...and eating, and eating. He eats everything in sight and grows larger and larger (like snorlax), all the time becoming more powerful and harder to stop. The more he eats, the more he wants. When he's doing this, people are trying to chip away at him and stop him, but unless they can actually stop the man before he starts, it becomes increasingly difficult to stop him. In the end, he vomits on the people who were trying to stop him, and they die.

2. A group of scientist begin to collect knowledge. Each scientist specializes in a certain field, and with each discover they share it with each other and are able to better their research. After a certain time they have gained so much knowledge that they are close to the final discovery or whatever, and they share this knowledge with another scientist who turns out to be evil. This evil scientist uses their knowledge to construct the ultimate bomb and destroys the world.

Whelp that's all I got for now. Banning Espeon or magic bounce makes the team so much more vulnerable that this might be the way to go. I don't think banning Scoli or speed boost really does anything. And I think limiting the number of passers to 3 is complex, kind of ends the full "defensive baton pass style", which some are against, but creates a new style for people wanting to use baton pass, which could be more offensive, or could take a semi-defensive turn with one or two offensive powerhouse, while able to still use Scoli/Espeon as a core, still being able to short chain or quick pass, and while being somewhat less powerful, is still effective to where people could still use it. Idk, I'm getting tired -_- Oh and I forgot to talk about the proposal of Stored Power + Baton pass, but I tried that too, and with the correct coverage moves and a nasty plot booster you can still do pretty well, but tend to get walled by unaware mons, or generally bulky mons who resist your coverage. Idk if I've achieved anything or furthured the thread in any way here, and it's a pretty long post so tl;dr and stuff. I hope we get some kind of progress on this eventually, and I know we will ~ Peace
 
I think we can all agree that BP teams need nerfing. What we can't agree on though, is how to do it. The obvious solutions are to ban using >X amount of pokes with BP or to ban Scolipede or Espeon from OU or to disallow use of certain combinations of Scoli and Espeon. However, a solution that just came to me seems ridiculously simple and effective is to simply ban a certain move combo on one essential poke. For example, if we banned use of Protect/Substitute/BP/Speed Boost on Scolipede, it wouldn't really affect much except BP teams, meaning that Scoli wouldn't be any less viable in any way except his BP role. On the flip side, it would make setting up much harder, but not impossible for BP teams. Without the speed boost, set up and sweeping could be much harder, but not so hard as to make it unviable. What do you guys think?

Btw, I didn't read the entire 1,600 or so messages on the thread already. But something still needs to be done, so I figured I'd help make this thread way longer then it needs to be.
The thing is, Scolipede isn't the only reason BP is where it is right now. MB Espeon in conjunction with how easily Scolipede sets up, gives everyone a hard time. Turn one Scolipede gets at least +1 in speed, the next turn, chances are, he'll get a sub or Stat boost essentially putting it at +2 in both speed and most likely Defense. You switch out into your roar 'mon, or Skarmory or taunt user, and the person BPs into Espeon.

If anything, Espeon is more of a problem than Scolipede since it stops anything not named mGyarados w/ taunt from stopping it at what it's trying to do. Subtract Scolipede and you still have a BP team that has a slightly harder time setting up. You subtract Espeon, and you have a significantly harder time keeping your boosts up. However, I don't believe BP is enough of a reason to ban Espeon when you can just ban BP altogether.

And, that's where the problem lies, what is deemed "bannable"? The move? A certain moveset? Or the Pokemon?
 
The thing is, Scolipede isn't the only reason BP is where it is right now. MB Espeon in conjunction with how easily Scolipede sets up, gives everyone a hard time. Turn one Scolipede gets at least +1 in speed, the next turn, chances are, he'll get a sub or Stat boost essentially putting it at +2 in both speed and most likely Defense. You switch out into your roar 'mon, or Skarmory or taunt user, and the person BPs into Espeon.

If anything, Espeon is more of a problem than Scolipede since it stops anything not named mGyarados w/ taunt from stopping it at what it's trying to do. Subtract Scolipede and you still have a BP team that has a slightly harder time setting up. You subtract Espeon, and you have a significantly harder time keeping your boosts up. However, I don't believe BP is enough of a reason to ban Espeon when you can just ban BP altogether.

And, that's where the problem lies, what is deemed "bannable"? The move? A certain moveset? Or the Pokemon?
And the the complex ban of "limit 2/3 BP users per team" avoids all of these issues, as it doesn't impact the move, movesets, or the individual pokemon, while still making BP teams much more manageable.
 
And the the complex ban of "limit 2/3 BP users per team" avoids all of these issues, as it doesn't impact the move, movesets, or the individual pokemon, while still making BP teams much more manageable.
Right, which then means you can BP to a "final" 'mon, i.e mGarchomp, mHera, mMawile etc. and the problem is still there unless you have a user of roar, or score a lucky crit. You're right however, it does make it far less simple to set up. And I agree it's the easier of the solutions without having to ban people from using Pokes or moves as a whole.

But, it unfortunately doesn't remove the problem of, "Once it gets going, it's difficult to stop".
 
I think part of what you're saying WebBowser, is that Espeon and/or Scolipede are the most important members of the baton pass team. Of course the move Baton Pass isn't broken by itself, like you say rachet67, it's only when used on a dedicated BP team. But what is the broken part of it? Will removing one important member from the chain, such as espeon, solve the problem? Or is it better to limit the number of users, or doing some other complex ban, so that no specific pokemon is hindered? Also, if it was on the same pokemon, then espeon or Absol wouldn't be able to short pass, if anyone actually does that, js.

Tbh, the more this thread/debate goes on, the more I lean to just a simple ban of Espeon or Scolipede. Espeon has 2 roles at most in OU - bouncing hazards/status and a dual screens set that is mostly outclassed by Deo-S. I've played a few matches with a baton pass team lacking espeon, and it was more difficult. You can't evade taunt, roar/whirlwind(unless mime or ingrain) etc, you don't have your primary stored power sweeper. The problem with this I see is that people might resort to using M-Absol, who has a turn of vulnerability, but can still pass calm mind and bounce. This is what leads to the thinking of "Well, maybe banning Magic Bounce + Baton pass on the same team/pokemon would be better", which is complex. This means either: 1. Espeon could be on a BP team but would have to be only a reciever - or 2. Espeon can't be on a team that has another pokemon that knows baton pass. #2 avoids the "escaping pursuit" argument, but starts to get even more complex.

3rd Paragraph: Banning Scolipede: BP chains are still intact, but they have to use Ninjask, who is 4x weak to SR, less bulky than scoli, and cannot boost defense at the same time as speed. This subtracts the multidimensional aspect that Scolipede provides, but BP chains are still able to boost their speed reliably, with Zapdos or Gliscor. I've played a few games without Speed Boosters (haven't used just Ninjask yet)...and honestly it's not that hard to get one agility in, and then be able to outspeed most pokemon and continue your sweep. I don't think banning Scolipede would really work out in the long run. He makes it a little easier, but he's not totally necessary. Then we get to the same thing as above - is it "ban speed boost + baton pass on the same pokemon" or "ban speed boost in conjuction with other baton passers on the same team. The first means Scoli can never baton pass again, the second means, well, Scoli can still boost and pass, just not on a team with other baton passers. Really it's just getting more confusing and complex, at least for me.
I like how you played games lacking Scollipede and Espeon and came to these conclusions, and I agree losing either can be played around. However, losing a Fairy cannot simply be played around with. Playing a BP team without any Fairy type hugely limits the chances of success since the best SAtk boosters are missing from the chain, meaning Espeon would have to set them on its own, and the reliance on DG subsequently greatly limits its move slots, which makes it much easier to deal with. Hence, banning BP on Fairies is also a viable option considering it has close to no impact outside of impacting dedicated BP teams only.
 
i keep seeing proposed solutions but may i make one of my own? why not do a complex ban of espeon + scoliopede/ninjask these are the core of the team and without them the bp chain is a lot weaker and easier to deal with
 

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Just want to throw my two cents out there. Ever since this topic has come up I've noticed more people trying to utilize BP, even in the lower ladders where apparently this wasn't a huge issue before. I created an alt to test out teams and incorporated a more offensive team with just Scolipede as the Baton Passer (Protect, Iron Defense, Sub, Baton Pass) to help understand it a little better. In only about twenty matches it was clearly easy to see why BP has become an issue. With the right team build it can completely shut down certain teams if not most teams. However having one BP user didn't make the team broken as it still had it's apparent flaws due to a lack of the components of a full Baton Pass team. If any solution is made, and I've suggested to those who asked on my personal opinion on the matter, a limit on the amount of BP users can be part of the solution (No more than 2). A complex problem such as this, which is apparent by the amount of feedback this topic has gained, needs a more complex solution in the future if and when that time comes.

Also I agree like most people here have stated, running such obscure counters like Haze Quagsire to deal with this sort of playstyle shouldn't be forced onto the players and in general wouldn't really solve much.
 
I'm still not seeing why dedicated counters are such a bad thing. People run wall breakers for stall or pokemon with crippling fast status for offensive or ferrothorn for rain. (granted it has other roles) I think some of you are failing to realize that if you consider baton pass to be another strategy on the level of one of these (even if it is "mindless") I'm not seeing the meta being forced to adapt as a problem. The only problem I can see is if baton pass is to over powered to the point where it's unfair. I really thing it has a long way to go from being over powered. If you simply lock into a powerful move they don't resist (Like return or earthquake without Zapdos of course) you can put huge amounts of pressure on a baton pass team. I mean if stuff like infiltrator noivern or haze quagsire becomes Viable because of this strategy I don't think there is a problem. But if this strategy can extremly consistently best all other strategies. Only then should we consider a nerf.
 
I'm still not seeing why dedicated counters are such a bad thing. People run wall breakers for stall or pokemon with crippling fast status for offensive or ferrothorn for rain. (granted it has other roles) I think some of you are failing to realize that if you consider baton pass to be another strategy on the level of one of these (even if it is "mindless") I'm not seeing the meta being forced to adapt as a problem. The only problem I can see is if baton pass is to over powered to the point where it's unfair. I really thing it has a long way to go from being over powered. If you simply lock into a powerful move they don't resist (Like return or earthquake without Zapdos of course) you can put huge amounts of pressure on a baton pass team. I mean if stuff like infiltrator noivern or haze quagsire becomes Viable because of this strategy I don't think there is a problem. But if this strategy can extremly consistently best all other strategies. Only then should we consider a nerf.
Can you tell me one way stall can get around a competent BP player without having to run haze Quagsire?
 
Can you tell me one way stall can get around a competent BP player without having to run haze Quagsire?
Welp, that's actually one of the main reasons I even began to consider Haze on Quagsire.
I had unaware quag, but realized after it was gone, there was nothing I could do after he went down. Without haze, my pokes dropped like flies once Quag was gone. . .

It just so happens to help out with Pokes that like to set up in Quags face.
 
+6 Cresselia can take a +6 500 BP Stored Power from Espeon and not even get 2hKoed but good luck doing anything back lol.

Nothing off the top of my head.
So shouldn't this alone be argument enough for over-centralization? Even if Offensive teams have a number of ways to beat it, and have a fighting's chance, the fact that it forces Stall to rely on a single shaky counter, and determines the game at matchup for teams without this specific counter, is a reason enough to nerf it.
 
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