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np: XY UU Stage 1 - Reload [Salamence: BL | Next: DROPS!!!]
- Thread starter kokoloko
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Kind of on the fence tbh regarding mence. It never seems to perform to expectations when i used it (i'm running a mixed scarf build with draco meteor, can't fucking kill 252/0 sheep with meteor smh) on a Voltturn team, but my experiences with using it as a physically defensive pivot all the way back when it was first unbanned were pretty positive in general. also yeah scarf moxie mence is a terrifying cleaner, experienced it first-hand.
It's actually not as broken in practice as on paper, but still overall a gigantic ass threat and well... probably still broken, somehow, given its versatility.
It's actually not as broken in practice as on paper, but still overall a gigantic ass threat and well... probably still broken, somehow, given its versatility.
to be honest, i don't know about mence. ive only really used dd lum set, and i wanna say that it works like pz in the sense that it's not too hard to deal with if you don't let it set up but i can't really say that because mence has generally better stats then pz and gets walled(?) by a fair few more stuff
I've been trying Kitten's set and it's working pretty well, although some games I never get the chance to set up.
Furthermore, I don't know what everyone else has been doing, but I've been finding myself running Intimidate on Salamence on almost every set bar Scarf simply because it gives you more set up opportunities and lets you give things like Darm and Hera a big fuck-you
Furthermore, I don't know what everyone else has been doing, but I've been finding myself running Intimidate on Salamence on almost every set bar Scarf simply because it gives you more set up opportunities and lets you give things like Darm and Hera a big fuck-you
I'm amused that we're testing Mence when Hydregion is way more broken.
Hydreigon's 98 speed is way easier to beat than 100 and attack boosting moves makes Salamance's attack limitless.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-uu-council-tiering-system-info-bl-retest-record.3502698/ comments should be somewhere in here
It's not about two points of base speed. It's about STAB on the second-best attacking type in the game, pivot ability in U-Turn, and Levitate without SR weakness.
I'm amused at people who have such strong opinions when they don't even play the metagame.
You're right, I've only played like 60 games so far, using both Mence and Hydregion and playing against both Mence and Hydregion. I'll post again when I've played a couple of hundred games instead, thanks!
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
flareblitz and limitless shouldn't bicker they are the best uu players ever :c
anyways if there is a very large difference of opinion it could stem from the possibility that hydreigon and salamence can both be threatening but to very different teams. hydreigon has everything that you just said flareblitz which makes it wonderful but then again salamence has dragon dance which lets it cleanly sweep which is a whole other dimension of "terror"
also salamence can probably run a more effective bulky set sort of like how i used a rest talk zygarde on a stall team which was really rather effective which just gives it more utility making it more broken (or depending on your view closer to broken).
anyways if there is a very large difference of opinion it could stem from the possibility that hydreigon and salamence can both be threatening but to very different teams. hydreigon has everything that you just said flareblitz which makes it wonderful but then again salamence has dragon dance which lets it cleanly sweep which is a whole other dimension of "terror"
also salamence can probably run a more effective bulky set sort of like how i used a rest talk zygarde on a stall team which was really rather effective which just gives it more utility making it more broken (or depending on your view closer to broken).
I do have to agree that Hydreigon can be broken to some extent, because it's great at what it does it has a great typing and ability, but it also has amazing coverage and access to u-turn. And I think we all know what makes Hydreigon so good, it's because off how easy it creates momentum with it's amazing STAB combination backed up by amazing coverage options. There's not a whole lot off pokemon that can tank dracos all day, and when theres something on the opposing team having a counter/check to hydra it's really easy to take advantage from because you are in the best position when you are in against something that you naturally will force out, and then theres no risk in u-turning, but for your opponent he really can't take that chance to stay in unless he really has to, and I do find that broken.
When it comes to Salamence I have to say this pokemon is also really good at what it does, it can either check a shitton of scary threaths with a bulky intimidate set or it can break through teams with a mix or band set, and it has it's sweeping potential which is great because off dd and moxie. All of this is pure versatility, this is what really makes this pokemon shine, the ability to surprise is something that gives you the edge, and while sporting great all around stats theres nothing to say that mence won't be a broken force in this meta, in my opinion it's just way underused and when used it's used wrong.
When it comes to Salamence I have to say this pokemon is also really good at what it does, it can either check a shitton of scary threaths with a bulky intimidate set or it can break through teams with a mix or band set, and it has it's sweeping potential which is great because off dd and moxie. All of this is pure versatility, this is what really makes this pokemon shine, the ability to surprise is something that gives you the edge, and while sporting great all around stats theres nothing to say that mence won't be a broken force in this meta, in my opinion it's just way underused and when used it's used wrong.
lol LL doesn't realize he's talking to a UU legend oO
anyway FlareBlitz we already tested hydreigon and we found it not broken. personally I think something with the potential to sweep entire teams after one turn of setup is far more dangerous than something whose best sets are choiced.
I completely agree on hydreigon being "better" in the sense that it provides more utility than Mence but Mence is more threatening when it hits the field.
anyway FlareBlitz we already tested hydreigon and we found it not broken. personally I think something with the potential to sweep entire teams after one turn of setup is far more dangerous than something whose best sets are choiced.
I completely agree on hydreigon being "better" in the sense that it provides more utility than Mence but Mence is more threatening when it hits the field.
Hyd provide more utility to the team with its typing and access to U-turn sure, but Salamence plays mindgames with both it's item and it's moveset. I.E., your game-plan revolves around revenge killing 'mence with HP ice or ice beam, only for it to have yache berry and clean sweep you. Switch in Hippo on a DD? Oops, Mixed LO and you just lost your physical wall.
Not to mention the only thing that snowballs harder is Moxiekrow, but with DD can be even more difficult to revenge.
Not to mention the only thing that snowballs harder is Moxiekrow, but with DD can be even more difficult to revenge.
This is particularly what makes checking DD somewhat annoying since usually I would run intimidate against such set up sweepers the problem is you just can't sac anything since it ends up returning back to +1. So you really have nip it at the bud before anything.
I'm glad more and more people are wising up to what I have always believed and that is that Hydreigon is broken in UU, bad for the metagame and should be banned.
FlareBlitz raised good key points by stating "It's about STAB on the second-best attacking type in the game, pivot ability in U-Turn, and Levitate without SR weakness." - Hydreigon is an incredibly potent offensive Pokemon that is difficult to punish. Just look at some other Offensive powerhouses in UU; Vicitini is Stealth Rock weak, Pursuit weak, and its V-Create leaves it vulnerable. Darmanitan is SR weak, has poor defenses and it gradually kills itself by using it's best move. Mienshao's STAB is unreliable and it is frail. Mega Absol NEEDS an SD to pose a threat. The Nidos, Heracross and Chandelure have a lackluster speed tier which leaves them easily revenged if not scarfed. Hydreigon has little difficulty doing what it does. The worst that will happen is "oh, Florges switched in and ate that Draco up, oh well, I'll switch out with little to no penalty", and as Bluwing touched on you can even use this to you advantage and just U-turn on the switch to bring in something like Victini to force Florges out again.
Hydreigon is an offensive powerhouse with bulk to boot. Everything about its stats and typing are a godsend save for the fact it gets slaughtered by fairies, but when you have all of the aforementioned strentghs to your advantage it isn't difficult to circumvent such an issue. Hydreigon's typing isn't even as big of an impairment as it is an asset; Dragon/Dark offers a plethora of resists which combined with Hydreigon's more than respectable bulk allow for ample opportunities to switch in. One thing that really irks me is how people often site Hydreigon's speed as an impairment; it is the current scarfer of choice for a good reason. Base 98 is actually a pretty sweet deal for Hydreigon as it sits comfortably above popular scarfers such as Darmanitan, Krookodile and Heracross The only faster scarfer that Hydreigon really fears is Mienshao, who when scarfed is easily checked, the best Victini can muster is a U-turn. Outside the realm of scarfing Hydreigon's speed is not to it's detriment at all, in fact Hydreigon is most likely the number one reason people are reluctant to run anything but speed boosting natures on base 100 Pokemon now. Sitting at base 98 it still outspeeds a number of significant unscarfed threats such as Roserade, Nidoking, Porygon-Z, and Krookodile. While Hydreigon would love to be in the base 100 speed club or above, its current tier is far from unfavourable.
All this and I haven't even touched on what I believe is the number one problem with Hydreigon, and that is unless you are packing Florges (or Aromatisse to some extent), Hydreigon is most likely going to give your team hell provided it isn't the typical scarf set, which I believe to actually be the worst of its set. It literally boils down to "carry a fairy, or get smashed by Hydreigon" which I think is incredibly unhealthy for the metagame - Mind you this isn't even taking into account the mixed sets that can destroy your fairy of choice with a well timed Iron Tail. Hydreigon draws many parallels to the now banned Crawdaunt and it's effect on the metagame where people were saying pack Chesnaught, or just accept that it will give you hell and with the amount of restriction on team-building both Hydreigon and Crawdaunt exert.
I was disappointed that the vote for Hydreigon was a unanimously UU, but more so on the generally flimsy reasoning provided to keep it UU. I am very aware that this is a more than late response to a past ban, but I have been thinking of posting such thoughts for a while but seeing FlareBlitz's post and similar general sentiment from other good UU players spurred me on to finally go ahead. I'm not sure what the protocol is on pokemon that have passed the re-testing phase, but I would love if it were possible to re-ban Hydreigon from UU.
Apologies for taking discussion away from the suspect at hand, I'll save my thoughts on Salamence for another time (I think it should be banned too).
FlareBlitz raised good key points by stating "It's about STAB on the second-best attacking type in the game, pivot ability in U-Turn, and Levitate without SR weakness." - Hydreigon is an incredibly potent offensive Pokemon that is difficult to punish. Just look at some other Offensive powerhouses in UU; Vicitini is Stealth Rock weak, Pursuit weak, and its V-Create leaves it vulnerable. Darmanitan is SR weak, has poor defenses and it gradually kills itself by using it's best move. Mienshao's STAB is unreliable and it is frail. Mega Absol NEEDS an SD to pose a threat. The Nidos, Heracross and Chandelure have a lackluster speed tier which leaves them easily revenged if not scarfed. Hydreigon has little difficulty doing what it does. The worst that will happen is "oh, Florges switched in and ate that Draco up, oh well, I'll switch out with little to no penalty", and as Bluwing touched on you can even use this to you advantage and just U-turn on the switch to bring in something like Victini to force Florges out again.
Hydreigon is an offensive powerhouse with bulk to boot. Everything about its stats and typing are a godsend save for the fact it gets slaughtered by fairies, but when you have all of the aforementioned strentghs to your advantage it isn't difficult to circumvent such an issue. Hydreigon's typing isn't even as big of an impairment as it is an asset; Dragon/Dark offers a plethora of resists which combined with Hydreigon's more than respectable bulk allow for ample opportunities to switch in. One thing that really irks me is how people often site Hydreigon's speed as an impairment; it is the current scarfer of choice for a good reason. Base 98 is actually a pretty sweet deal for Hydreigon as it sits comfortably above popular scarfers such as Darmanitan, Krookodile and Heracross The only faster scarfer that Hydreigon really fears is Mienshao, who when scarfed is easily checked, the best Victini can muster is a U-turn. Outside the realm of scarfing Hydreigon's speed is not to it's detriment at all, in fact Hydreigon is most likely the number one reason people are reluctant to run anything but speed boosting natures on base 100 Pokemon now. Sitting at base 98 it still outspeeds a number of significant unscarfed threats such as Roserade, Nidoking, Porygon-Z, and Krookodile. While Hydreigon would love to be in the base 100 speed club or above, its current tier is far from unfavourable.
All this and I haven't even touched on what I believe is the number one problem with Hydreigon, and that is unless you are packing Florges (or Aromatisse to some extent), Hydreigon is most likely going to give your team hell provided it isn't the typical scarf set, which I believe to actually be the worst of its set. It literally boils down to "carry a fairy, or get smashed by Hydreigon" which I think is incredibly unhealthy for the metagame - Mind you this isn't even taking into account the mixed sets that can destroy your fairy of choice with a well timed Iron Tail. Hydreigon draws many parallels to the now banned Crawdaunt and it's effect on the metagame where people were saying pack Chesnaught, or just accept that it will give you hell and with the amount of restriction on team-building both Hydreigon and Crawdaunt exert.
I was disappointed that the vote for Hydreigon was a unanimously UU, but more so on the generally flimsy reasoning provided to keep it UU. I am very aware that this is a more than late response to a past ban, but I have been thinking of posting such thoughts for a while but seeing FlareBlitz's post and similar general sentiment from other good UU players spurred me on to finally go ahead. I'm not sure what the protocol is on pokemon that have passed the re-testing phase, but I would love if it were possible to re-ban Hydreigon from UU.
Apologies for taking discussion away from the suspect at hand, I'll save my thoughts on Salamence for another time (I think it should be banned too).
Hydreigon is actually healthy for the metagame. The fact that you say this shows that you do not actually know what a healthy and unhealthy Pokemon is. Are we all suddenly forgetting how destructive and common Mega Houndoom was before Hydreigon entered the metagame? What about Mew? Honchkrow? Shaymin? Absol? Chandelure?
If you guys don't realize exactly how healthy Hydreigon is for our metagame, then you haven't played XY UU long enough to realize how dominant these Pokemon I mentioned actually were. Maybe not all of them, but at least the top three I mentioned. The funny thing is, the council, before we even dropped Hydreigon back down, stated the reason we want Hydreigon back in the metagame was for its ability to check many of the top threats. Hydreigon is getting heavy usage now for its ability to check these massive threats, not its ability to sweep. And if you don't understand that, then you don't understand Hydreigon.
If you guys don't realize exactly how healthy Hydreigon is for our metagame, then you haven't played XY UU long enough to realize how dominant these Pokemon I mentioned actually were. Maybe not all of them, but at least the top three I mentioned. The funny thing is, the council, before we even dropped Hydreigon back down, stated the reason we want Hydreigon back in the metagame was for its ability to check many of the top threats. Hydreigon is getting heavy usage now for its ability to check these massive threats, not its ability to sweep. And if you don't understand that, then you don't understand Hydreigon.
Although you do put forward a good argument Metric, there are a couple of flaws that I personally find.
The comparison between Crawdaunt and Hydreigon is as almost as far away from a comparison as possible. No special counters needed to be brought into check Hydreigon, Florges was already the most popular Pokemon in the tier. Whereas Crawdaunt can destroy or cripple a lot of Pokemon with its insane attack and Knock Off, Hydreigon misses out on quite a few OHKOs and even 2HKOs. And lastly another point pushing Crawdaunt over the line was its ability to set up, and priority, neither of which Hydreigon has access to.
If Hydreigon wants to use its most threatening move, Draco Meteor, it does have consequences whereas a lot of its other moves don't hit quite hard enough in a lot of situations.
I'm not sure how many Iron Tails you have seen around either, but if you miss a Florges with it you are forced out straight away, and really is quite an unreliable option in the scheme of things.
Hydreigon is perfectly manageable and the tier has not really shaped around it much. It is very good but not quite broken.
(and also what Limitless said)
The comparison between Crawdaunt and Hydreigon is as almost as far away from a comparison as possible. No special counters needed to be brought into check Hydreigon, Florges was already the most popular Pokemon in the tier. Whereas Crawdaunt can destroy or cripple a lot of Pokemon with its insane attack and Knock Off, Hydreigon misses out on quite a few OHKOs and even 2HKOs. And lastly another point pushing Crawdaunt over the line was its ability to set up, and priority, neither of which Hydreigon has access to.
If Hydreigon wants to use its most threatening move, Draco Meteor, it does have consequences whereas a lot of its other moves don't hit quite hard enough in a lot of situations.
I'm not sure how many Iron Tails you have seen around either, but if you miss a Florges with it you are forced out straight away, and really is quite an unreliable option in the scheme of things.
Hydreigon is perfectly manageable and the tier has not really shaped around it much. It is very good but not quite broken.
(and also what Limitless said)
A set I have personally loved using on Salamence is a mixed-offensive Defogger. Due to DD being the set most people expect to see, it catches many by surprise and hits hard on both fronts thanks to LO.
Defog MixMence
M1: Draco Meteor
M2: Fire Blast
M3: Iron Tail
M4: Defog
Ability: Intimidate
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 64 Atk/192 SAtk/252 Spe
Nature: Naive/Hasty
Lures in physical walls like Mega Aggron and Chesnaught, obliterates them with Fire Blast. Draco Meteor is nice and spammable, while Iron Tail scores a neat 2HKO on Florges. Defog's the ace of the set, as Salamence isn't typically used as a Defogger, so it brings an unpleasant surprise to hazard stackers. Forretress is chanceless, as Fire Blast OHKOes with some prior damage and then Salamence can just Defog hazards off.
Defog MixMence
M1: Draco Meteor
M2: Fire Blast
M3: Iron Tail
M4: Defog
Ability: Intimidate
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 64 Atk/192 SAtk/252 Spe
Nature: Naive/Hasty
Lures in physical walls like Mega Aggron and Chesnaught, obliterates them with Fire Blast. Draco Meteor is nice and spammable, while Iron Tail scores a neat 2HKO on Florges. Defog's the ace of the set, as Salamence isn't typically used as a Defogger, so it brings an unpleasant surprise to hazard stackers. Forretress is chanceless, as Fire Blast OHKOes with some prior damage and then Salamence can just Defog hazards off.
After playing more and experimenting with different team-styles, I agree with most this. Hydregion is an incredible threat to offensive teams that are based on defensive type synergy (like the kind I tend to build...) because of its access to amazing STABs, U-Turn, good bulk / typing, and Levitate. My teams were never threatened by Salamence because I always had Stealth Rock and pokemon like Rhyperior and Cobalion to handle its various sets. On the other hand, after using Salamence, I can see why it was suspected. I don't agree that the DD set is most threatening though; CB Salamence is guaranteed at least one kill and a boatload of momentum against any team without Florges. That said, I think Hydregion does it just as well, so if one is broken, I'd argue the other is as well.
hi kok
I wasn't aware that we have already tested it - is there a link to the paragraphs? I didn't see it in the beginning of the thread, and I am curious as to the reasoning. From my experience, you lose either momentum or Pokemon to it if you don't have Florges (or Snorlax, depending on the set).
I am surprised by this argument. The ability of a potentially broken Pokemon to check other potentially broken Pokemon does not make it less broken, and we have established that a long time ago. And I am even more surprised by some of the actual Pokemon on your list. You don't need Hydregion to handle Mew, Honch, Absol, Chandy, or Mega-Doom. Hell, Snorlax handles half of those by itself, and I can name half a dozen viable Pokemon that handle any Pokemon on that list. If they dominated the metagame before and do not now, that's less about Hydregion and more about people adapting to their presence. But it's interesting you consider a bunch of Pokemon with several viable potential checks "common and destructive" while simultaneously not considering a Pokemon that is countered by maybe two Pokemon and is pervasive on the ladder the same.
Edit: Let me also take this opportunity to comment on some less-used Pokemon that I think deserve more usage: Cobalion, Muk, and Mismagius.
Cobalion is incredible in this metagame because of how fast it is relative to everything else, the ability to be a powerful fighting type while simultaneously threatening fairy types and not being as threatened by Pokemon like Crobat. Very surprised this is RU, especially since you basically force Hydregion to not use Dark Pulse as long as it's alive.
Muk is a funny one. I've used both CB Muk and AV Muk, and the accuracy buff to Gunk Shot, as well as Sticky Hold being great against Knock Off users, make it an incredibly good Pokemon within its niche. You can come in for free on Florges, Heracross, and many other common Pokemon and fire off ridiculously strong attacks. AV Muk also has the distinction of having better special bulk than Blissey so that's fun.
And Mismagius benefited greatly from two things: the Steel nerf and Dazzling Gleam. Its speed lets it destroy every common dragon, it has access to Nasty Plot and can beat Umbreon and Florges one-on-one. Just watch out for Snorlax!
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Don't take it offensively dude. Just posting my opiniom. The only problem i find with this set is that Salamence should be the one getting defog support, not the one providing it. It is a total waste of Salamence's coverage and power imho.
FlareBlitz I wouldn't say mismagius destroys every common dragon due to its speed when a good portion of them are scarfed and have a chance to ohko with outrage / dark pulse
snorlax also doesn't really handle mew considering that it rapes it with the stallbreaker set, and risks getting ohko'd by superpower from honch and m-absol.
snorlax also doesn't really handle mew considering that it rapes it with the stallbreaker set, and risks getting ohko'd by superpower from honch and m-absol.
As much as I hate to derail something as come to my attention that its pretty interesting and potentially unhealthy
Should be mentioned that magneton is still doing the exact same thing magnezone was doing (volt switching way too hard)
the only trade off being a minor defense loss, which is made more minor by the fact ton can out-speed Blastoise with only 68 EV's rather than 148.
I wouldn't be bringing it up if magneton wasn't still doing crazy stuff like killing sp.def hippo if it has anything less than 92% HP on the switch in and doing nearly as much damage on v-switches as magnezone did. Obviously its not nearly as crazy as zone was but I still think it deserves some attention since there are barely enough things to stop its crazy powerful volt switches and the few things that do are floored by how powerful those boosted HP grasses are. Hippo is probably the only one that has a chance on the second switch in, I know ya'll are gonna say mega ampharos or something like that but you don't realize that you need to stop it from VSing to have a chance to kill it, otherwise its just going to dent your party and keep switching in threatening things that fail to give them a chance to heal just like magnezone did and just like magnezone is a perfect switch in to florges which is as popular as ever, should be noted that evolite sets also work well as baiting the popular magnezone clone and can net some free damage in the process, but is not as bad as those specs+anal volt switches.
Should be mentioned that magneton is still doing the exact same thing magnezone was doing (volt switching way too hard)
the only trade off being a minor defense loss, which is made more minor by the fact ton can out-speed Blastoise with only 68 EV's rather than 148.
I wouldn't be bringing it up if magneton wasn't still doing crazy stuff like killing sp.def hippo if it has anything less than 92% HP on the switch in and doing nearly as much damage on v-switches as magnezone did. Obviously its not nearly as crazy as zone was but I still think it deserves some attention since there are barely enough things to stop its crazy powerful volt switches and the few things that do are floored by how powerful those boosted HP grasses are. Hippo is probably the only one that has a chance on the second switch in, I know ya'll are gonna say mega ampharos or something like that but you don't realize that you need to stop it from VSing to have a chance to kill it, otherwise its just going to dent your party and keep switching in threatening things that fail to give them a chance to heal just like magnezone did and just like magnezone is a perfect switch in to florges which is as popular as ever, should be noted that evolite sets also work well as baiting the popular magnezone clone and can net some free damage in the process, but is not as bad as those specs+anal volt switches.
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