Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Cinco Swift]

Im pretty sure the replay you posted shows it was a draw, despite heleolisk being the 'perfect counter' you only one because your opponent was bored although they could have one.

Heleolisk is completely outclassed, just because it has a good ability doesnt mean it is good. Raikou is bulkier, faster, hits harder and isnt walled by megasaur - something heleolisk can never do. Mega mane hits much harder, is much faster and has access to overheat. Thundurus has better coverage and a type to give it a niche immunity. Even rotom-w is better because its water move does damage.

Can we please move to a different subject as everybody has concluded that it isnt viable.

Thats what im saying If a raikou was against that manaphy that was boosted it would have lost but if heliolisk faced a venasur it would have lost. THey are DIfferent POkemon who win and lose against differen pokemon. One is not better than the other nor does one outclass the other. They are ALL viable.

 

[boo118]

Chances are if a pokemon hasn't been added to the list at this point AND it's thread has been locked (for not being viable) then it probably doesn't need to be ranked. Just saying it gets old reading this thread and seeing people nominate pokemon that anyone with knowledge of the metagame knows isn't viable.

I'd like to see what people think of dropping Manaphy to B+ Rank. On one hand, it can become a MONSTER in the rain, after a Tail Glow boost it 2HKOs Chansey which is an insane feat for a special attacker to do after just one boost. Yet on the other hand, it's not fast enough to sweep offense and it's not quite powerful to break stall, theres a plethora of faster pokemon that can revenge kill it or 2HKO it while it tries to set up a sweep on Offense and for defense, depending on it's moveset, Chansey, Mega-Venusaur and Unaware Clefable all can wall it. It can still be great but I just don't see it as a top level threat as A rank pokemon should be.

Reasons against this move

1. It can stall break, as long as the opponent doesnt have a mega venu, which is becoming unpopular
2. unaware clefable isn't really used that much
3. It can run the rain dance hydration bulky calm mind set, which does do pretty decent, since the most popular electric attacks are special. And grass is almost non existent in OU bar mega venu. Imo this set is better than the tail glow, as it uses manaphy's natural bulk.

BUT i do agree for manaphy moving down. I just don't see it as a threat anymore and can be revenged relatively easily and has kinda dropped in usage and niche as more thundy's have prevailed :/

 

[AM]

Chances are if a pokemon hasn't been added to the list at this point AND it's thread has been locked (for not being viable) then it probably doesn't need to be ranked. Just saying it gets old reading this thread and seeing people nominate pokemon that anyone with knowledge of the metagame knows isn't viable.

I'd like to see what people think of dropping Manaphy to B+ Rank. On one hand, it can become a MONSTER in the rain, after a Tail Glow boost it 2HKOs Chansey which is an insane feat for a special attacker to do after just one boost. Yet on the other hand, it's not fast enough to sweep offense and it's not quite powerful to break stall, theres a plethora of faster pokemon that can revenge kill it or 2HKO it while it tries to set up a sweep on Offense and for defense, depending on it's moveset, Chansey, Mega-Venusaur and Unaware Clefable all can wall it. It can still be great but I just don't see it as a top level threat as A rank pokemon should be.

On the topic of Heliolisk I really don't see why we're still arguing the viability of it in OU. It's really not good and the logic that is being presented doesn't make up for the fact that its outclassed. Heliolisk being viable would be a heavy misrepresentation to newer players getting acquainted to the OU meta. Sure it has its niches but this is just going to make people assume that we can nominate any random mon simply because it has a useful niche against other mons.

Mainly I do agree with Manaphy moving down to B+. What boo118 and Prosecutor Godot mentioned is in a general sense the limitations of Manaphy. Granted that's all it generally needs, but these limitations can hinder its usefulness at times. It's easily picked off by most priority moves, and the speed tier it falls under is great against slower teams such as stall, but doesn't give it the edge it needs against more offensive teams most times. A good stall breaker, a decent win condition when it you can pull it off, and the usual sets that it runs provides are able to handle most things. However, the points mentioned above makes Manaphy's viability not as useful as one would expect from an A- mon, at least that's what I've noticed.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

I made a long post a while back explaining why Heliolisk does not deserve an OU analysis, and most of the arguments I made are still relevant and apply to this discussion.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...x-read-carefully.3495075/page-27#post-5315968

In short, Heliolisk is far too outclassed as an offensive Electric-type Pokemon by Thundurus (not to mention things like Mega Manectric and Raikou), and its few perks over its competition are nowhere near enough to warrant using it on a serious competitive team.

 

[TFL]

In Cinco Swift's defense, I don't see how Heliolisk is unworthy of a rank when we are ranking Pokemon like Mega Abomasnow, Kyurem, Jirachi, Froslass, Snorlax etc.

 

[Srn]

In Cinco Swift's defense, I don't see how Heliolisk is unworthy of a rank when we are ranking Pokemon like Mega Abomasnow, Kyurem, Jirachi, Froslass, Snorlax etc.

Atleast they are fairly unique in their role, their role is just bad. Helio is outclassed, and that's a different issue altogether.
For example, you can rank Roserade b/c although it sorta sucks, its the only real offensive spiker (outside of ?deo-s? and ???diggers???)
It can perform a certain niche, it just sucks at doing it and sucks in general

However, there is no point in ranking florges as sylveon outclasses it and is better than it in every way ever. There's a slight difference

 

[Jukain]

Manaphy should stay A- imo. I've been using the CM set a lot lately and it's actually really good, pretty underrated. Assuming Breloom is gone/isn't on the opposing team and if they have Thundy/Ferro it is gone, it can do really well vs sand offense which is ill-equipped to break it/take boosted hits from it. Furthermore, it has a ridiculous matchup advantage vs stall, as it rams straight through Chansey and most relevant stall Pokemon, and can't be broken. The set excels because it is difficult to take hits from with CM boosts/rain boost, difficult to break with max physical bulk/SDef boosts from CM, and difficult to wear down with a status immunity in the rain due to Hydration as well as Hydration Rest. It is obviously not a set without its flaws, but CM Manaphy is a threat and worthy of an A- ranking.

It's at least better than many of the B+ Pokemon. Compared to things like MegaChomp, Quagsire, normal Scizor, Slowbro, normal Gyarados, Kabutops, Politoed, and MegaCham (list is not exhaustive), Manaphy just seems a cut above. Furthermore, the Tail Glow set is still decently effective and poses a slightly different, more immediate threat. It belongs where it is.

 

[Cinco Swift]

I made a long post a while back explaining why Heliolisk does not deserve an OU analysis, and most of the arguments I made are still relevant and apply to this discussion.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...x-read-carefully.3495075/page-27#post-5315968

In short, Heliolisk is far too outclassed as an offensive Electric-type Pokemon by Thundurus (not to mention things like Mega Manectric and Raikou), and its few perks over its competition are nowhere near enough to warrant using it on a serious competitive team.

Atleast they are fairly unique in their role, their role is just bad. Helio is outclassed, and that's a different issue altogether.
For example, you can rank Roserade b/c although it sorta sucks, its the only real offensive spiker (outside of ?deo-s? and ???diggers???)
It can perform a certain niche, it just sucks at doing it and sucks in general

However, there is no point in ranking florges as sylveon outclasses it and is better than it in every way ever. There's a slight difference

The difference between Sylveon an Florges and Heliolisk and the other electrics (Raikou/thundurus/Mane) is that they don't 100% completele outclass Heliolisk. None of these other electrics has a water immunity. Using each of them has their own advantages and drawbacks.

 

[Hclegend]

The difference between Sylveon an Florges and Heliolisk and the other electrics (Raikou/thundurus/Mane) is that they don't 100% completele outclass Heliolisk. None of these other electrics has a water immunity. Using each of them has their own advantages and drawbacks.

Oh my god please stop, I'm breaking my "Stop posting on OU Viability thread V2" vow here. Listen, I like Vivillion, Galvantula and a bunch of other UU/RU mon, but do you see me suggesting them for a rank? No. My suggestion is to lurk more. For gods sake please Golurk more. I'm not gonna say WHY Helio is outclassed because it's been explained already. Stop trying to say he's viable. He isn't. It might hurt at first (I was tempted to suggest Galvy for a rank up) but you'll get other it. Just stop because you're embarrassing yourself.

 

[Gary]

Okay Cinco Swift if you continue to talk about Heliosk Subject 18 will infract you. Seriously I've told you to stop and so has many other people have told me why it sucks, yet you continue to use the same arguments over and over again and refuse to listen to what anyone else is saying. I don't mind when people try to argue for something to get ranked, but when you say something completely illogical like that Heliosk is better than Diggersby than obviously you don't know enough about the meta to vouch for anything. This is your last warning.

Uggg looks like I have to put it on the blacklist because you can't listen to simple directions. Good job man.

 

[Usatoday]

Cinco Swift
I'm going to break this down very clearly for you. I have watched you destroy this thread over the last 4-5 pages, lost count. Your argument for heliolisk moving up is something that simply cannot comprehend. For me is it's essentially a special version of electivire. It has massive coverage, yet it cannot break the common walls that it needs. While it is true that heliolisk possesses a great ability in dry skin it simply cannot cut it in the current environment. Your argument for azumarill does not really matter as it can simply predict you switching in and destroy you with a play rough. Keldeo can simply do the same thing and destroy it with a secret sword, it's not that hard to predict especially on upper ladder. The only other common water attacks that you will see will be coming from rain sweepers that carry potent dual stabs or coverage moves for you. Draco meteor kingdra, stone edge kabutops, and focus miss ludicolo. This ability does not compare to the utility that other electric types provide: Thundurus acts as a instant panic button on any set up sweeper that is not ground types with prankster thunder wave; While MMan's intimidate allows for it to act as a pivot switch for some weaker physical or resisted attacks that heliolisk cannot take such as brave bird from talonflame. Relevant calcs seen below.

Your' secondary argument is that heliolisk possesses incredible coverage; The key sellers being surf, focus blast, and dark pulse. This is irrelevant when compared to the other electric types that it is competing against, MMan, Thundurus, and the occasional Raikou.

MMan vs Heliolisk

• Flamethrower/Overheat vs Focus Blast

Fire attacks are generally always better than fighting attacks when it comes to the general tier of ou because of the numerous steels types that run around it. Scizor, Aegislash, and Ferrothorn will be hit harder by fire attacks than they will by focus blast. Focus blast is generally only good for Tyranitar but even then you still have to rely on shaky accuracy at best.

• Hidden Power Ice vs Surf

This should be very clear that surf 9/10 times will be irrelevant for the metagame as surf really only hits landorus, heatran, and mamoswine. While it is true that the prior two are generally very good ways to deal with electric types within the tier and surf does it them. It doesn't grant you the ability that hidden power ice does such as garchomp, ohkoing landorus, and dragonite.

• Dark Pulse

Why did you even bring this up as the only real viability it has is to hit aegislash. This move isn't even worth using as coverage because of the weakness it has when it is unstab for heliolisk.

Thundurus vs Heliolisk

• Psychic / Hidden Power Flying vs Surf

Same scenario it does not come down to the utility that psychic and hidden power has for the current metagame. The ability to hit the grass types in the tier MSaur and Loom is a huge thing, especially for electric types. However surf on the other hand does not allow for heliolisk to hit anything that would resist it's moves.

Raikou vs Heliolisk

• Extrasensory vs Surf / Focus Blast

See above.
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 360-425 (135.8 - 160.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 274-324 (103.3 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk: 257-304 (96.9 - 114.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk: 307-361 (115.8 - 136.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 198-233 (74.7 - 87.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 94-111 (33.4 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Heliolisk remains unranked.
Now onto my something I have been thinking about, I suggest moving Ludicolo from C- => C Rank. Ludicolo is an extremely underrated in today's metagame. It is a pokemon that is capable of being able to muscle it's way through many of the common water types that come in to wall other swift swim users. With Giga drain, Hydro pump, Focus blast, and Ice beam there is very little that can withstand it's onslaught. Ludicolo is a wallbreaker that allows other swift swim users to shine, removing keldeo, azumarill, ferrothorn and quagsire.

 

[Subject 18]

Hi. That previous post said everything that needs to be said about Heliolisk and why it doesn't belong in OU. No more discussion on Heliolisk. It will remain unranked and is now being added to the blacklist. Thank you.

 

[skies]

Hi, so let's drop the whole Heliolisk discussion, ok, it's done. Now, Diggersby. I do believe Diggersby should move up to A-, it's extremely good and very powerful, Life Orb + Swords Dance is super strong and, hell, it is more powerful than Mega Kangaskhan:

• +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 160-190 (47.9 - 56.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
  
• +2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 153-180 (45.8 - 53.8%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO

Now, we all know why Mega Kangaskhan is broken, please do not even mention it, I only do to show a comparison. As you can see, it is extremely powerful. Diggersby absolutely goes to town against Defensive teams:

Calcs

• +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 741-873 (105.2 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 224-265 (56.8 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 246-290 (62.4 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 348-411 (95.6 - 112.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
• +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 367-433 (90.8 - 107.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 0- Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 336-400 (87 - 103.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (obviously this will never happen, but you get the jist, Heatran dies.
• +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 351-413 (92.3 - 108.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Diggersby is also fast enough that it often outspeeds everything on Stall, so nothing can really outspeed it. Diggersby's STAB moves are only resisted by Skarmory and Gengar and Drifblim, which makes it all the harder to switch into. Against offensive teams, it has Quick Attack, which, yet again, is much more powerful than you think:

• +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 220-261 (64.5 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  
• +2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 195-229 (57.1 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• +2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 213-252 (62.4 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (even though nobody uses Adamant, just to be fair)

Yeah, Diggersby is strong. Oh, want one more calc? Ok:

• +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 550-647 (161.2 - 189.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• +2 252+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew in Sand: 570-672 (167.1 - 197%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• +2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 439-517 (128.7 - 151.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It's a tiny bit less powerful than a +2 Mega Garchomp in Sand, Diggerby doesn't even need it! Now, Diggersby isn't some unstoppable monster that all teams need to be prepared for, if you got that vibe. Diggersby has absolutely horrid bulk. It also doesn't have many opportune times to set up against offensive teams, and this is not very good with it having common weaknesses in Fighting-, Water-, and Ice-type weaknesses, all extremely common. Hell, it hardly takes any neutral hits! All in all, though, Diggersby is certainly an A- Rank threat.


Will make post on Char-Y later, but short story short, it belongs in A Rank imo.

 

[Jacks0n]

Mega Mawhile For S rank
I really do think this needs to happen. This gen mawhile was blessed with a mega, and is now one of the most threatening if not the most threatening pokemon in OU. With huge power it hits insanely hard, it has good coverage with elemental fangs and iron head, sucker punch to make up for its speed and sd to double its attack stat, which is already the highest in the game. But that is not all, mega mawhile has one of the best typings in OU, letting it switch in on a wide variety of attacks including fairy attacks, dark attacks, psychic attacks, flying attacks, bug attacks, grass attacks ect. Mega mawhile is such a meta game defining force and is easily as threatening as zard x and other s ranks and for some teams it is even more threatening, it simply has no safe switch ins and belongs in S rank.

 

[JebusChrist]

View attachment 15188
Mega Mawhile For S rank
I really do think this needs to happen. This gen mawhile was blessed with a mega, and is now one of the most threatening if not the most threatening pokemon in OU. With huge power it hits insanely hard, it has good coverage with elemental fangs and iron head, sucker punch to make up for its speed and sd to double its attack stat, which is already the highest in the game. But that is not all, mega mawhile has one of the best typings in OU, letting it switch in on a wide variety of attacks including fairy attacks, dark attacks, psychic attacks, flying attacks, bug attacks, grass attacks ect. Mega mawhile is such a meta game defining force and is easily as threatening as zard x and other s ranks and for some teams it is even more threatening, it simply has no safe switch ins and belongs in S rank.

Eh, it's too reliant on Sucker Punch imo, since its speed is trash and that leaves it very open to faster stuff burning it. It's unquestionably really good, but unless it Sucker Punches, its always gonna go second. And if you Sub to block status you're either missing out on coverage or SD. A+ is fine, I'd say

 

[Zibbity]

I don't know about Manaphy's rank, it's underrated for sure. I've ran a set in the past with Rain Dance and Tail Glow. A Surf under rain and after 2 Tail Glows will 2KO Chansey and overwhelm Mega Venusaur. Energy Ball hits other water types like Quaggy and Vaypoo and Psychic for poison types like Amoon. The real problem is 4 moveslot syndrome. I want Rain Dance so Manaphy's ability activates and stops Toxic stall. Another reason for Rain Dance is so that she/it checks Charizard Y given Char Y doesn't move first. I haven't tried the Calm Mind set, Tail Glow is cool. Manaphy is a great Pokemon but with the other water types like that stupid washing machine and my beloved pony Keldeo, it's no.surpise it's BL.

Mega Mawile although extremely powerful and good typing lacks the speed and bulk to become a top tier threat. Not easy to counter but easy to check. Spore it or burn it and Mawile is screwed. Not deserving to be moved up to S rank.

 

[Jacks0n]

I don't know about Manaphy's rank, it's underrated for sure. I've ran a set in the past with Rain Dance and Tail Glow. A Surf under rain and after 2 Tail Glows will 2KO Chansey and overwhelm Mega Venusaur. Energy Ball hits other water types like Quaggy and Vaypoo and Psychic for poison types like Amoon. The real problem is 4 moveslot syndrome. I want Rain Dance so Manaphy's ability activates and stops Toxic stall. Another reason for Rain Dance is so that she/it checks Charizard Y given Char Y doesn't move first. I haven't tried the Calm Mind set, Tail Glow is cool. Manaphy is a great Pokemon but with the other water types like that stupid washing machine and my beloved pony Keldeo, it's no.surpise it's BL.

Mega Mawile although extremely powerful and good typing lacks the speed and bulk to become a top tier threat. Not easy to counter but easy to check. Spore it or burn it and Mawile is screwed. Not deserving to be moved up to S rank.

you obviously havent used mega mawhile before, mega mawhile has probably the best bulk on offence, which becomes even better with intimidate, if you are going to say something, atleast know what you are talking about.

 

[Red Cat]

I think Diggersby should stay at B+. It certainly is powerful at +2, but what offensive team is going to give it the turn to set up? 78 base speed isn't that great and Quick Attack is still a 40 Base Power Normal type move, so most offensive threats can survive Quick Attack even at +2 and revenge kill it. Diggersby can blow through most stall threats, but Skarmory only takes a little more than 50% at +2 and can KO Diggersby if it has Counter, which is becoming more popular on Skarm. The Scarf set has a good combination of speed and power, but then you are using a Scarf on something which has no hope of revenge killing speed boosting threats. Diggersby is very good, but its lack of speed and bulk really hold it back from being A- material.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Mawile is ridiculously strong, it blows huge chunks of health out of things that are supposed to counter/check it (even on resisted hits,) and can be a real pain to RK for offensive teams if it gets a turn to boost cause of that Sucker Punch, but I think it has too many flaws to be S-ranked, these flaws being speed, reliance on sucker punch, and not terribly bulky and weak to Erfquake. It's still strongth as fucking hell but I just don't think it's as good as X-zard, who is the most comparable S-ranked mon (set-up sweeper mega.)

 

[dingbat]

Mb for making a really retarded post, Subject 18

Anyways in all seriousness Charizard Y imo should drop to A rank. The metagame is currently in the state in which I don't think its performance is on par with the other A+ 'mons but rather with the A 'mons. Keeping in mind its advantages and disadvantages (that have been stated over and over and over again and shouldn't really be reiterated), Charizard Y should make the drop to A rank for the time being.

 

[vyomov]

Before expanding upon my views on Diggersby, I'd just like to point out that we don't need to compare Mega Gardevoir and Diggersby because both fill very different roles - and both can possibly move to A-.

Diggersby is one of the best sweepers in the current meta, as it can easily break through most teams if unprepared for. However, it does have quite a few flaws(such as speed, and a defensive typing that leaves it weak to many common attacking types), which is why it is essential to go through the matter carefully before deciding it's rank. While doing so, I am essentially looking at two sets: LO SD Diggersby and Scarf Diggersby
Some calcs to show how Diggersby does vs some of the S-Rank mons-:
S-Rank
a) Landorus-I:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Diggersby: 502-593 (160.8 - 190%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 242-285 (75.6 - 89%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
The LO SD set loses to Lando if it hasn't set up, although if it has set up, a little prior damage can ensure the KO.

252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 237-279 (74 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
The scarf set needs prior damage to beat Lando, but it loses if Lando gets a free switch-in
Summary: Lando generally beats Diggersby, but with prior damage Diggersby can beat Lando with the Scarf set or with +2 QA

b) Aegislash
- The Tank set and the SubToxic set both lose to Diggersby, as EQ KOes all variants and without LO/sufficient investment in attack, Aegi cannot KO back with Sacred Sword
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 230-272 (73.7 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 300-354 (92.5 - 109.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

- The All-out attacking set can KO Diggersby(although it needs SR), but Diggersby likewise KOes that set, so one can say it's a tie

c) Charizard-X
- LO SD Diggersby can beat DD Char X with SR and prior damage, but loses if it hasn't set-up (although Char X cannot actually switch into Diggersby)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 200-238 (67.1 - 79.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 357-420 (114.4 - 134.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

- The Scarf Set cannot switch into Flare Blitz, but can take a Dragon Claw if needed and can KO with EQ:
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 390-458 (130.8 - 153.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 237-279 (75.9 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The bulky DD set can beat LO SD Diggersby, although it can't switch into EQ. However, Scarf Diggersby can KO with EQ -
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 390-458 (108.6 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The Bulky WoW set can cripple Diggersby, but loses to EQ from Scarf.

Summary: Scarf Diggersby can beat Char X, whatever the set(although if Char X is at +1, it loses), and LO SD Diggersby can beat the Offensive DD set.

d) Deoxys-S
This is quite obvious - Deo-S can revenge kill Scarf Diggersby and LO Diggersby - but loses to LO SD if it's at +2, and cannot actually switch into Scarf Diggersby

e) Deoxys-D
Diggersby can't stop Deo-D from setting up SR, but can 2HKO with Return or can use U-Turn to hit hard and switch to a suitable mon.

f) Thundurus-I
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Diggersby: 411-486 (131.7 - 155.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 288-340 (96 - 113.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Scarf Diggersby can't switch into Thundy-I's FB, but can beat it with Return. LO SD Diggersby can KO at +2 with QA:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 296-348 (98.6 - 116%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Summary: Diggersby can't switch into Focus Blast, but can predict a T-Bolt or T-Wave and KO with the right move(if Scarf Diggersby). LO SD beats it if set-up

Considering that Diggersby does quite well against most S-Ranked mons, providing an excellent check for Aegislash, Thundurus-I and Charizard X while also being capable of KOing Lando-I with a little prior damage(although it loses to LO Deoxys-S if it's not set-up), I support Diggersby to A-. It's worth mentioning that Diggersby kills stall, as it can KO Skarmory with +2 Return, while also doing very well as a speedy pivot (Scarf Diggersby) - indeed, this replay shows us how good it can be(although Odin didn't win): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-2163
Comparing with the other residents of A-, we find Mons like Manaphy and Mamoswine, which Diggersby is probably just as good at - indeed, it's quite comparable to Mamo, who has more bulk but less power. Diggersby has very few counters(if any), and a lot of it's offensive checks cannot actually switch into it.

Quoting this here because the Heliolisk discussion buried the actual good discussion on Diggersby to A-.

 

[Tyrant laharl]

Quoting this here because the Heliolisk discussion buried the actual good discussion on Diggersby to A-.

as much as I'd like to see more discussion, there hasn't really been any rebuttal as to why he SHOULDN'T Be A-, so I guess I could play devils advocate a bit.

As good as diggersby is, his main problem is he's weak to literally every priority in this world barring BP, so he needs many extremely common pokes gone to sweep. He also nestles in a very awkward speed tier, and I could go as far as to say sash SD (as well as almost any other set) faces heavy competition from garchomp and even mega garchomp. While the bunny has priority, hits harder, and has access to u-turn and wild charge, garchomp boasts arguably better stab, a much better speed tier, and has the ability to get around things that counter both of them thanks to his expansive special movepool, such as skarmory. Keep in mind both versions of garchomp boast much better bulk as well, and you quickly see why diggersby isn't used more often. Garchomp simply gets around more counters easier, and Is much more unpredictable overall.

 

[Zibbity]

you obviously havent used mega mawhile before, mega mawhile has probably the best bulk on offence, which becomes even better with intimidate, if you are going to say something, atleast know what you are talking about.

In fact I have. You obviously don't know what you're talking about. Mawile cannot pull off consecutive sweeps with that low speed and no reliable recovery method. Mawile needs the bulk to survive and it is frail on turn one. Intimidate makes it good for weakening physical attackers except for Bisharp and Mawile only then has the upper hand to check many physical attackers. I don't play higher ladder but I can easily say Mawile doesn't define the metagame like Aegislash does.

I think Diggersby should stay at B+. It certainly is powerful at +2, but what offensive team is going to give it the turn to set up? 78 base speed isn't that great and Quick Attack is still a 40 Base Power Normal type move, so most offensive threats can survive Quick Attack even at +2 and revenge kill it. Diggersby can blow through most stall threats, but Skarmory only takes a little more than 50% at +2 and can KO Diggersby if it has Counter, which is becoming more popular on Skarm. The Scarf set has a good combination of speed and power, but then you are using a Scarf on something which has no hope of revenge killing speed boosting threats. Diggersby is very good, but its lack of speed and bulk really hold it back from being A- material.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Diggersby is difficult to consider when Excadrill exists.

 

[vyomov]

I think Diggersby should stay at B+. It certainly is powerful at +2, but what offensive team is going to give it the turn to set up? 78 base speed isn't that great and Quick Attack is still a 40 Base Power Normal type move, so most offensive threats can survive Quick Attack even at +2 and revenge kill it. Diggersby can blow through most stall threats, but Skarmory only takes a little more than 50% at +2 and can KO Diggersby if it has Counter, which is becoming more popular on Skarm. The Scarf set has a good combination of speed and power, but then you are using a Scarf on something which has no hope of revenge killing speed boosting threats. Diggersby is very good, but its lack of speed and bulk really hold it back from being A- material.

Actually, if you look at some calcs, +2 LO Quick Attack can KO most of the stuff that outspeeds Diggersby, so I wouldn't go as far as to say "most" offensive threats.
Skarmory can't actually switch in to Diggersby, which is incredible as Skarmory is usually the physical wall on Stall(forgive me if I'm wrong about this though, as I'm not as familiar with stall)

Talking about the Scarf set, it's role isn't actually to revenge-kill speed boosting threats - it serves as a pivot and, once Diggersby's counters have been weakened, a late-game win condition. THe fact that it outspeeds Greninja is crucial, because most Greninjas will stay in on Diggersby not anticipating Return.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Diggersby is difficult to consider when Excadrill exists.

And how exactly is Excadrill relevant? Excadrill is a bulky offensive spinner(and it's great), not a pokemon that can rampage through stall or can break through most balanced teams?

 

[Red Cat]

Actually, if you look at some calcs, +2 LO Quick Attack can KO most of the stuff that outspeeds Diggersby, so I wouldn't go as far as to say "most" offensive threats.
Skarmory can't actually switch in to Diggersby, which is incredible as Skarmory is usually the physical wall on Stall(forgive me if I'm wrong about this though, as I'm not as familiar with stall)

Basically, anything which is bulkier than Landorus can take a +2 Quick Attack. This includes Mega Charizard X (without SR), Azumarill, Bisharp (this is a 50/50 with Sucker Punch and Knock Off), Excadrill, Garchomp, Gyarados, Keldeo, Mega Pinsir (without SR), Talonflame (Priority Brave Bird), Gengar (immune to Quick Attack), Kyurem-B, Terrakion, Manaphy, Mamoswine, and I could go into the B ranks to find more.

Also, how is Diggersby going to get to +2? Here is a list of stuff that can heavily damage or kill it before it sets up: Both Mega Charizards, Deoxys-S, Landorus, Thundurus, Azumarill, Bisharp (again 50/50 mind games), Excadrill, Garchomp, Greninja, Gyarados, Keldeo, Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, Talonflame, Mega Venusaur, Dragonite, Ferrothorn, Gengar, Kyurem-B, Lati@s, Terrakion, Breloom, Mamoswine, Manaphy, Rotom-W, and again I could find many more in the B ranks. So I have a hard time seeing how Diggersby is actually going to get to +2 against an offensive team.

Skarmory absolutely can switch into Diggersby. You switch in Skarm as it uses Swords Dance and then use Counter on Return for the kill. The only thing Skarm really fears is Wild Charge on the Scarf set, but if Diggersby is running a Scarf, it loses the ability to 2HKO other things like Mega Venusaur, Quagsire, and Hippowdon which defeats the purpose of using it to break walls.

Diggersby's calcs at +2 always look impressive, but remember that Diggersby actually has to spend a turn getting to +2 which is easier said than done with something as slow and frail as it is.

I think Diggersby is closer to Crawdaunt (slower hard hitting attacker whose boosted priority doesn't hit hard enough to make up for its lack of speed, and who has a hard time finding set up opportunities) than Azumarill (has the bulk and defensive typing to provide a set up opportunity and hits hard enough with its boosted priority to make up for its lack of speed). So I think B+ is fine for Diggersby.