Serious LGBTQ

[jumpluff]

So I just came out as bisexual to my mom. Let's just say that I'm pissed. When I told her, she kept telling me how she thought I was "choosing a dangerous lifestyle" and, honestly, just about the only thought that was going through my mind was "Fuck you, mom." My dad is tolerant, but my mom is not. But, unfortunately, my dad is still in Japan. My mom also told me how I "shouldn't make this known to everyone" because "some people will stop loving you over this." I was so fucking pissed at that I was so close to telling her to go fuck herself. She clearly doesn't fucking understand that it's not LGBT people pushing their families away from them, but rather, the other way around. And besides, if I stay in the closet, the bigots win. I can't let that happen.

Even though I lean more towards preferring women, I feel like I need to date men for a while just to spite my mom and pressure her into acceptance. I know her, and know for a fact that she will not move an inch on her ultra-conservative thinks-it's-a-choice views unless I fight adamantly to do so. I'd rather deal with lots of her shit now if it means she won't give me any shit later in life. But maybe it's just my current rage towards her talking, I don't know.

Hey, I think you've settled down now, which is good. I just wanted to say this is a horrible reaction to have to deal with from your mom, especially after you put yourself out there on the spot. But I think you can definitely make something out of this situation, especially if your father has a talk to her. I'm going to hazard a guess that the reasons for your mom's fear are a) an intuitive and probably socialised fear of the 'abnormal'/other b) fears for your wellbeing based on hate crimes/rejection, or possibly your mom believes that bi people are inherently more promiscuous -> AIDS and/or hell c) probably fears of appearance for herself as well, honestly. I'm not saying that justifies the reaction; in fact, it's all pretty horrible. What I am saying is that it is workable, because she may come to accept you over time if her reaction is centred around those things. I think if you do what Oglemi said and remind her occasionally, sit down to have a talk with her and keep her updated on your wellbeing and try to create an environment in which queerness can become normalised, she may be able to learn. Of course, remember your wellbeing comes first here, so it's probably best to drop it for awhile, because such discussions can be very difficult to deal with.

Re. the existing conversation: the thing with bisexual people is that there are many bi people who prefer their own gender. Plus while choosing to date or fuck someone is not involuntary, falling for someone mostly is, and for a bi person who does not prefer the gender they're 'supposed to' date, this leaves them wide open to falling for or being attracted to someone of their own gender. For most people, not pursuing the person they're interested in would lead to suffering.

Bi people do have the ability to 'pass' for straight, especially if they're in different-gender relationships, but whether the bi person wants to pass as straight or not is really up to them. Because to some people, it's a very important part of their feelings that suppressing feels painful, or because being stuck in the closet/assumed to be straight while people are being shitty about gay people around you really blows, or because, if it matters to you as a part of your identity, being 'dequeered' may feel degrading, honestly.

However, Kitten Milk, I definitely disagree that bi people who choose only to date one gender are antithetical to bisexuality/romanticism! There are quite a lot of queer people around who do this for various reasons. I can't speak for other people and how they manage their feelings, but dating is a choice that you yourself differentiated from attraction. Physical attraction can also exist while romantic interest doesn't, etc., which is a problem I see with defining everyone's preferences solely by their 'sexuality'

 

[KM]

However, Kitten Milk, I definitely disagree that bi people who choose only to date one gender are antithetical to bisexuality/romanticism! There are quite a lot of queer people around who do this for various reasons. I can't speak for other people and how they manage their feelings, but dating is a choice that you yourself differentiated from attraction. Physical attraction can also exist while romantic interest doesn't, etc., which is a problem I see with defining everyone's preferences solely by their 'sexuality'

I was too quick to equate dating with romantic/sexual attraction towards another person, so I'll apologize about that to start off with. While there's sense to the idea that it is a logical - and even legitimate - option for a bisexual person to choose to only date one gender for the purposes of ease/social acceptance/their own circumstances, I have to again bring up the comparison of a gay person choosing to only date people of the opposite sex for the same reasons.

If we're willing to differentiate dating from attraction, we're inherently giving legitimacy to opposite-sex relationships where 1+ member is either in the closet or choosing to ignore their homosexual tendencies in order to maintain social acceptance. Once again, this is a personal choice, and I don't mean to vilify it, but it can hardly be said that these relationships are true to the member(s) homosexuality, making gay people who choose to date the opposite gender antithetical to homosexuality. Why should the same not apply to bisexuals? The degree to which the person is attracted to the person of the opposite gender is irrelevant and unquantifiable (it's not a 0/1 thing), so the common thread is only the rejection of romantic relationships with people of the same gender.

People who do this are not without their reasons, and whether or not it is antithetical to their 'sexuality' is certainly something that should only be concluded on a personal case. However, regardless of the personal situations, the effects these attitudes have both on reinforcing heteronormatism and building up a great deal of prejudice towards the bisexual communities can't be understated or ignored.
It's partly because of these attitudes that teens still come out as "bisexual" when they feel no attraction towards the opposite sex purely because their parents can harbor some faint hope that their child is just going through a phase or will end up with someone of the opposite sex anyway. It's because of these attitudes that bisexual people essentially become the mulaatos of sexuality, ridiculed by both gay and straight people. When one of my best friends came out to her mom as lesbian, her mom said "I don't mind you being lesbian, as long as you're not bisexual - bisexual people are just greedy assholes". Conversely, many members of the gay community see bisexuals as closet cases, weak, imaginary, and unwilling to commit to being against society.

Once again, I'm not holding anything against people who choose to date members of the opposite sex, no matter what their 'sexuality'. I just still don't think it's possible to equate being an out bisexual with choosing to forgo romantic relationships with people you're attracted to because of them being your gender.

 

[jumpluff]

How about we just not police queerness like that? Suggesting that relationships where a homosexual person chooses to date someone of the opposite gender are inherently illegitimate or insisting that their failure to out themselves harms the gay community is vilifying their personal choice. At no point should we fall into the trap of imposing rigid ideals, as a gay community, on how LGBTQ people behave. In the case of someone choosing to be in a het relationship purely to maintain social legitimacy and not out of any interest in the person themselves, I think that is between them and their partner. It's not something I would have ever chosen for myself, but nor will I place judgment on that relationship except for the possibility that someone is being used. And honestly I would have a lot of sympathy for both people in that case.

Do I think jynx's attitude towards other queer people ('don't worry about being bi because you can just behave straight anyway') reinforces and reflects heteronormativity? Yeah, I do. Do I think her dating preferences reinforce heteronormativity? Nopers. If anything, I would argue her dating preferences simply serve as confirmation bias for the heteronormative, and that it is not her personal responsibility to be a paragon of gayness.

And yeah, I'm very personally aware of the massive warped social perception of bisexuality, as I alluded to above in my post with LucaaiodklgkldfgdkflgZ (sorry dude T_T too lazy to scroll up). I think that expecting all bi people to not exhibit a preference towards a gender enforces similar restraints. What we should be aiming for is to accept other people's relationship choices insofar as no one in that relationship is being harmed by it and encourage other people to accept them, not to mould themselves to a singular ideal of gayness. I would argue that this singular ideal is harmful as well, especially to explicitly bi people (who are often ostracised when in het relationships, delegitimised as queer within the gay community and without and thus denied both recognition of identity and access to safe spaces, and may struggle to identify themselves when so many harmful beliefs about what it means to be bisexual circulate already), but also to explicitly homosexual people who have ever been in a heterosexual relationship, and also to anyone else who doesn't fit in the boxes laid out by both heterosexual and homosexual norms.

It's not up to us to tell jynx what to do, since she hasn't asked, but it seems pretty cut and dry to me that she's talked to people about being bi, which makes her out. And she's also discussed with these people quite clearly that she experiences attraction to women, even though she dates men. Where is the problem? How is she not out? If bi people who choose primarily to date a different gender cannot discuss their bisexuality, then we are creating an equally harmful situation that erases many people's identities and limits people's understanding of queerness. jynx will probably (read: probably, not definitely) experience less direct homophobia because she is not as visibly out, being in a relationship with a male, but conditional passing brings unique experiences of its own, and right now she is having her identity attacked because of her dating preferences.

 

[Minwu]

TL;DR don't tell jynx what to do; there are infinite variables to sexuality and ones' social life and to suggest with such fervor that what they're doing is wrong isn't exactly solid advice. And in my opinion a thread like this is better geared towards the personal experience. Congrats should be given to jynx for a smooth coming out :)

For a related story, I've come to think that attraction to guys is within the realm of possibility for me. I haven't really entertained the thoughts openly to someone else in seriousness yet, and really up until now I think there's only one person who I've outright and seriously came out to as bi(a school friend), but it's something that certainly floats around there in my mind. And I think I'm doing it alright and living my life happily this way, at least in regards to my sexuality. I might become more open about it in the future, and I'd be thrilled to be with someone I like, but really it's just one of the last worries on my mind right now. I don't necessarily think that suggesting someone to "out" is always the best advice, and at times I can see how it may be harmful and put the person in danger(not that that's a good thing at all). I think it's funny in a way that we're having this conversation in a thread where many gay people have talked about how they're selectively in the closet still, and are met with the acceptance they deserve.

 

[KM]

How about we just not police queerness like that? Suggesting that relationships where a homosexual person chooses to date someone of the opposite gender are inherently illegitimate or insisting that their failure to out themselves harms the gay community is vilifying their personal choice. At no point should we fall into the trap of imposing rigid ideals, as a gay community, on how LGBTQ people behave. In the case of someone choosing to be in a het relationship purely to maintain social legitimacy and not out of any interest in the person themselves, I think that is between them and their partner. It's not something I would have ever chosen for myself, but nor will I place judgment on that relationship except for the possibility that someone is being used. And honestly I would have a lot of sympathy for both people in that case.

Do I think jynx's attitude towards other queer people ('don't worry about being bi because you can just behave straight anyway') reinforces and reflects heteronormativity? Yeah, I do. Do I think her dating preferences reinforce heteronormativity? Nopers. If anything, I would argue her dating preferences simply serve as confirmation bias for the heteronormative, and that it is not her personal responsibility to be a paragon of gayness.

And yeah, I'm very personally aware of the massive warped social perception of bisexuality, as I alluded to above in my post with LucaaiodklgkldfgdkflgZ (sorry dude T_T too lazy to scroll up). I think that expecting all bi people to not exhibit a preference towards a gender enforces similar restraints. What we should be aiming for is to accept other people's relationship choices insofar as no one in that relationship is being harmed by it and encourage other people to accept them, not to mould themselves to a singular ideal of gayness. I would argue that this singular ideal is harmful as well, especially to explicitly bi people (who are often ostracised when in het relationships, delegitimised as queer within the gay community and without and thus denied both recognition of identity and access to safe spaces, and may struggle to identify themselves when so many harmful beliefs about what it means to be bisexual circulate already), but also to explicitly homosexual people who have ever been in a heterosexual relationship, and also to anyone else who doesn't fit in the boxes laid out by both heterosexual and homosexual norms.

It's not up to us to tell jynx what to do, since she hasn't asked, but it seems pretty cut and dry to me that she's talked to people about being bi, which makes her out. And she's also discussed with these people quite clearly that she experiences attraction to women, even though she dates men. Where is the problem? How is she not out? If bi people who choose primarily to date a different gender cannot discuss their bisexuality, then we are creating an equally harmful situation that erases many people's identities and limits people's understanding of queerness. jynx will probably (read: probably, not definitely) experience less direct homophobia because she is not as visibly out, being in a relationship with a male, but conditional passing brings unique experiences of its own, and right now she is having her identity attacked because of her dating preferences.

I'm pretty sure we agree on the majority of the stuff you talked about, but I think you misunderstood the original purpose of my posts.

I was addressing Jynx's attitude towards bisexuality as the ability to "choose" who you're attracted to - I was never considering or saying anything related to jynx's personal situation at all. She is in a romantic relationship with someone of the opposite gender, and that's obviously fine. It's obviously a logical and probably outcome that a bisexual person ends up with someone of the opposite gender - whether it's simple chance, implicit societal pressure, or the direct choice to forgo romantic or sexual relationships with people of the same gender, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the result. The only thing I was ever arguing against was her stance of 'don't worry about being bi because you can just behave straight anyway'.

It's for this reason that I even brought up the theoretical of a homosexual person dating someone of the opposite gender. The stance of 'don't worry about being bi because you can just behave straight anyway' is very easily logically extended to gay people, as romantic and sexual attraction is a spectrum and it's certainly possible to fake/force a relationship with someone even if you have no sexual attraction to them. When I stated that these relationships weren't legitimate, I wasn't referring to a closeted homosexual conforming to straight ideals and marrying someone of the opposite gender. I would never delegitimize this, as for many people it is the only viable and logical option. The only thing I ever meant to question the legitimacy of was the (illogical) concept of an out homosexual choosing not to date people of the same gender, and the same case for bisexuals by extension.

 

[jumpluff]

But you missed my point entirely. If an outed gay person chooses to date a person of a different gender, whose place is it to criticise? I can think of plenty reasons for doing it, if you can't then you are imposing the exact same rigid norms I mentioned on gay people. Also, your logic doesn't extend at all to bi people since they have their own preferences and personality as well and being bi ('potentially being attracted to people of both same and different genders', not 'dates everyone in equal proportions') does not preclude being selective about whom you date.

Maybe more orientations exist than homosexual, heterosexual, and 50/50sexual, and maybe some people have more fluid sexualities and romantic orientations than others.

I explicitly differentiated jynx's advice to others and her personal dating choices in my previous post.

I find it interesting how previously in the thread people were discussing Kinsey (which is honestly imho dreadful, but at least shows people recognise that there are degrees of preference that may also change over time) but the moment we start talking about an actual real person who has made her preferences rather clear we can't accept them as she states them. Let me be as explicit as possible: just because she is bi does not mean she is romantically interested in women at this time (if she is, she does not necessarily have to be as romantically interested in women as men, and so on), and even if she was does not mean she has to pursue this, despite her attraction and interest, as this is up to her. That doesn't make her straight, it means she has dating criteria and chooses only to engage in het relationships.

If those choices of hers bother her or she would like to know what people think of them then by all means I'm willing to give my opinions but I don't think outing herself means her beliefs should be used to represent the gay community

 

[EV]

Maybe more orientations exist than homosexual, heterosexual, and 50/50sexual, and maybe some people have more fluid sexualities and romantic orientations than others.

You bet, since some people identify as a-, poly-, and pansexual, too. Link if you want.

 

[jumpluff]

You bet, since some people identify as a-, poly-, and pansexual, too. Link if you want.

I don't like your link because it conflates gender identity with sexual/romantic orientation, and oversimplifies asexuality. I consider asexuality separate for the purposes of this conversation because the terms I use typically conflate both sexual and romantic orientation.

Although there are lots of interesting things to consider about the cases of asexual queer people, who typically get ignored because of the model in which orientations are defined by sexuality, and how the sexual orientation model we have, in being oriented around 'same' and 'opposite', exists in complete dissonance with the existence of other genders and sexes. That same dissonance is reflected in your link.

 

[EV]

I don't like your link because it conflates gender identity with sexual/romantic orientation, and oversimplifies asexuality.

Well ignore the link. I more or less wanted to bring up different types of romantic orientation. And I didn't mean that as YOU (jumpluff) btw like I was trying to prove it. I realized after I posted that's how it came across since I quoted you. I really meant "link if anyone wants." ^_^

E: I also realize I exposed my ignorance when it comes to gender identity and romantic orientation so if I offended anyone I apologize.

 

[jumpluff]

Oh okay. Yeah, a strong point I was implying was that conflation of romantic orientation with sexual orientation is often facile.

I guess another thing I didn't make explicit but alluded to was that straight people continue to identify and are accepted as straight despite having had (or having wished to have) sexual and/or romantic encounters with people of the same gender, so it's kind of weird that we have such a fixed view of gayness.

 

[KM]

There really isn't a more elegant way of saying "i agree with everything you just said", so "I agree with everything you just said".

my wrongly fixed view of gayness/sexuality probably stems from having to deal constantly with people who believe that sexuality in general is a choice. Because of this I get overly defensive when I hear the concept of choosing to only be with someone of the opposite sex (because of a misguided equation of sexuality and dating/attraction), so I ended up being ironically close-minded myself.

that said I still don't think it's a good idea to conflate bisexuality with "the ability to choose to be straight" because of the stereotypes it reinforces that I already mentioned. everyone has the ability to "choose to be straight", and there may be factors that drive people to this logical conclusion regardless of their sexuality.

 

[dwarfstar]

jumpluff All I really know about Kinsey is what we learned in my sociology of gender class and what's on his Wikipedia page (apparently he was a fellow entomology buff, which I find really cool), and the only objectionable thing I see here is fudging data in certain aspects of his reports on human sexuality (which is, to be certain, a bad thing). Is that your issue with him, or is there something else I'm not aware of?

 

[Demoness]

Well, work made me miss pretty much the entirety of this conversation, but I still feel the need to jump in.

Yeah, that link just rubs me the wrong way with the word "transsexualism". First off, the word itself is asserting that something that is an issue of gender identity is a sexual orientation/identity issue, which is just flat out wrong and frankly insulting to me as a transgender individual. It also asserts that a trans person must want to change their sex in order for them to be considered trans, which is once again demeaning and is basically trying to force this single label on an entire group of people, and we all know how well that is received! Of course, I know that there is a difference between your gender identity and your sexual identity for trans people, but trying to herd them under one umbrella term that doesn't even really encompass it at all is just wrong IMO. Maybe I'm just interpreting it wrong...

And yeah, I don't really like how people seem to be mixing up romantic orientation with sexual orientation. They are two different things. They may be found together in a vast majority of cases, but they are separate and distinct. You can be romantically involved with someone, but do not feel a sexual attraction towards said person, and vice versa. With this distinction, a gay man or women can date someone of the opposite sex without said relationship being sexual in anyway. In terms of bisexual people, as Jumpluff said, you don't have to be 50/50 attracted to either men or women. You can have preferences towards either sex in terms of who you find more sexually appealing. You can find both men and women sexually stimulate you, but you only want to date either men or women because your romantic orientation makes you prefer a certain sex.

In particular, the part that gets to me the most is that you have to be this certain way in order to be considered bi/gay/lesbian/whatever other label you want. Personal little anecdote here. I am a transgender indivdiual. I fully believe that my gender identity is that of a girl. However, if you were to see me IRL, you wouldn't see me acting like what most people would expect a transgender M2F would act like. I don't try to make myself appear "girly", I still allow people to use male pronouns in conversation towards me, and I don't act any more "feminine" then I usually do. I consider an individual to be transgender not when they try and go out to show the world that they are not the gender they appear to be, but if they truely do believe in their minds that they are transgender. You don't need to show "proof" that in the end, doesn't really prove anything except that you are simply expressing yourself in a different way. Just like with literally anything, there is many ways to express yourself as a transgender individual. Trying to say that any one person's expression is less "truthful" or "legitimate" is lazy and abhorrent.

Darth Missingno. I can't speak for Jumpluff, but my main issue with the kinsey scale is what I have with pretty much any kind of scale such as that: It is trying to put these neat little labels and levels onto something that really can't be done that way. In this case, sexuality is a constant gradient that has an innumerable amount of ways a person can express it that a numbered scale just fails to actually show it well at all. I also ahev other issues with it, but that's more the fact that it leaves out many different sexual identity's/orientations, which isn't all that relevant for what it is trying to do specifically.

and the only objectionable thing I see here is fudging data in certain aspects of his reports on human sexuality

If you're trying to persent your work as a credible source of knowledge and even to produce a scale that can "measure" sexuality, fudging the fucking data you get is a big, big issue.

 

[elcheeso]

Oh okay. Yeah, a strong point I was implying was that conflation of romantic orientation with sexual orientation is often facile.

I guess another thing I didn't make explicit but alluded to was that straight people continue to identify and are accepted as straight despite having had (or having wished to have) sexual and/or romantic encounters with people of the same gender, so it's kind of weird that we have such a fixed view of gayness.

For women, maybe? Usually not so much with men, unless you mean in some sort of "I am an ex-gay and being used by whatever company replaced Exodus as a figurehead" way. There's a reason why hooking up with straight men is almost always completely and utterly toxic to one's self-esteem if you're out, because there is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuge amount of... well, maybe not denial, but I'd call it a serious case of the 'NO HOMOS'? Straight guys who have or have had sex with men usually have to do a lot of justification to themselves and others for how NOT GAY they are, given how our society can consider dudes hugging or choosing not to kiss a woman to be under homo suspicion.

 

[dwarfstar]

If you're trying to present your work as a credible source of knowledge and even to produce a scale that can "measure" sexuality, fudging the fucking data you get is a big, big issue.

I certainly understand that, yes - fudging data makes the science completely unreliable, which is one of the worst things one can do in terms of contributions to a body of knowledge. I got the general impression that her beef with it had something to do with the conversation they were having, which is why I was trying to clarify it. Your point about trying to numerically measure a fluid continuum makes a lot of sense; that hadn't occurred to me. Thanks!

 

[jumpluff]

For women, maybe? Usually not so much with men, unless you mean in some sort of "I am an ex-gay and being used by whatever company replaced Exodus as a figurehead" way. There's a reason why hooking up with straight men is almost always completely and utterly toxic to one's self-esteem if you're out, because there is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuge amount of... well, maybe not denial, but I'd call it a serious case of the 'NO HOMOS'? Straight guys who have or have had sex with men usually have to do a lot of justification to themselves and others for how NOT GAY they are, given how our society can consider dudes hugging or choosing not to kiss a woman to be under homo suspicion.

Oh yeah, valid point, thank you.

It's very interesting how differently it's viewed between women and men, since homophobic attitudes towards them both manifest so toxically.

at the untaggable missingno: It's late for me, I'll get back to you on why I specifically view the Kinsey Scale to be somewhat nonsensical; the statistical problems with Kinsey's other research are very, very well delineated.

 

[Cresselia~~]

I'm pretty sure we agree on the majority of the stuff you talked about, but I think you misunderstood the original purpose of my posts.

I was addressing Jynx's attitude towards bisexuality as the ability to "choose" who you're attracted to - I was never considering or saying anything related to jynx's personal situation at all. She is in a romantic relationship with someone of the opposite gender, and that's obviously fine. It's obviously a logical and probably outcome that a bisexual person ends up with someone of the opposite gender - whether it's simple chance, implicit societal pressure, or the direct choice to forgo romantic or sexual relationships with people of the same gender, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the result. The only thing I was ever arguing against was her stance of 'don't worry about being bi because you can just behave straight anyway'.

It's for this reason that I even brought up the theoretical of a homosexual person dating someone of the opposite gender. The stance of 'don't worry about being bi because you can just behave straight anyway' is very easily logically extended to gay people, as romantic and sexual attraction is a spectrum and it's certainly possible to fake/force a relationship with someone even if you have no sexual attraction to them. When I stated that these relationships weren't legitimate, I wasn't referring to a closeted homosexual conforming to straight ideals and marrying someone of the opposite gender. I would never delegitimize this, as for many people it is the only viable and logical option. The only thing I ever meant to question the legitimacy of was the (illogical) concept of an out homosexual choosing not to date people of the same gender, and the same case for bisexuals by extension.

Oh, I wasn't saying that we have the ability to "choose" who we're attracted to.

But I'm pointing out that we have the ability to choose who we date.
Dating is more selective. You are probably turned on by several people, but you obviously can't date them all. In the end you are going to choose.

 

[Th!nkPi]

You bet, since some people identify as a-, poly-, and pansexual, too. Link if you want.

*raises hand* I'm in no control of whether I fall in love with a man, woman, etc. I fall for personalities :D

It's late for me, I'll get back to you on why I specifically view the Kinsey Scale to be somewhat nonsensical; the statistical problems with Kinsey's other research are very, very well delineated.

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on the Kinsey Scale too. I'll be looking out for the post :)

 

[Cresselia~~]

So I'm completely new to this community, and I was watching some videos on Youtube.

And I have just learnt that lesbians are even more prejudiced towards bisexuals than straight people are.
This is a real shock for me. I thought people would have been supportive to all those who are under the LGBTQ umbrella.

I guess it's a bit like how inter-minority racism can be even more vigorous than white-to-minority racism?

Anyway, I was about to ask which LGBTQ community you go to, and do you get awful stuff like that?
Or is it actually better for me to not join? (especially when I'm religious)

 

[dwarfstar]

So I'm completely new to this community, and I was watching some videos on Youtube.

And I have just learnt that lesbians are even more prejudiced towards bisexuals than straight people are.
This is a real shock for me. I thought people would have been supportive to all those who are under the LGBTQ umbrella.

I guess it's a bit like how inter-minority racism can be even more vigorous than white-to-minority racism?

Anyway, I was about to ask which LGBTQ community you go to, and do you get awful stuff like that?
Or is it actually better for me to not join? (especially when I'm religious)

I'm not going to pretend I have all the statistics, but based on what I've read and my own experiences, it's more an issue of certain factions of the L/G "community" (if you can call it that) being prejudiced against bisexuals than lesbians as a whole.

Regarding communities, I'm afraid I can't help much there - the one I belonged to is basically just the GSA at my school, although I had to leave this past quarter because the schedule of meetings conflicted with a class I need for my major. My own friend group is queer-friendly (and several are actually queer themselves), but I'm not sure that qualifies, since it's not an official organization. What I can tell you is that religious belief shouldn't prevent you from seeking out a community to belong to. Anyone who actually knows what they're talking about understands that there are religious people who are kind and queer-friendly, just like there are some homophobic atheists out there, so I expect there's room out there for you. Good luck!

 

[Gerard]

So I just came out as bisexual to my mom. Let's just say that I'm pissed. When I told her, she kept telling me how she thought I was "choosing a dangerous lifestyle" and, honestly, just about the only thought that was going through my mind was "Fuck you, mom." My dad is tolerant, but my mom is not. But, unfortunately, my dad is still in Japan. My mom also told me how I "shouldn't make this known to everyone" because "some people will stop loving you over this." I was so fucking pissed at that I was so close to telling her to go fuck herself. She clearly doesn't fucking understand that it's not LGBT people pushing their families away from them, but rather, the other way around. And besides, if I stay in the closet, the bigots win. I can't let that happen.

Even though I lean more towards preferring women, I feel like I need to date men for a while just to spite my mom and pressure her into acceptance. I know her, and know for a fact that she will not move an inch on her ultra-conservative thinks-it's-a-choice views unless I fight adamantly to do so. I'd rather deal with lots of her shit now if it means she won't give me any shit later in life. But maybe it's just my current rage towards her talking, I don't know.

Maybe it's a bit late but I agree with everything Oglemi said, and I tell you this because the exact same thing happened to me. I live in Mexico and even though I'm fortunate that my family and friends are accepting I know how it can be out there, hell, a friend of mine happened to be assaulted on the street (he was coming out of a party where he went in drag, and luckily outside of some foul language, and getting some stuff thrown at him, nothing more came out of it, even though they did hurt three fingers of his). Me and my boyfriend (now ex) were kicked out of a mall because we were kissing, not even something gross, just a few kisses while eating ice cream. It happens, and my mother (and your mother) just wants me (you) to be safe, she didn't want to be one of those parents you see on the news asking for justice because some ignorant person killed their kid. Who wants that!? So I think it would be best for you to calm down and talk with her, tell her how you know how to defend yourself, that you'll be careful, this doesn't mean you have to shut yourself in the closet, I believe we'll only achieve acceptance if people stop thinking of two people of the same sex kissing on the street as gross, inappropriate, or even surprising or cute but completely normal. Just, you know, be safe, surround yourself with people you can count on, practice safe sex, don't try to fight someone when that person could hurt you, worst if you're outnumbered, etc... It's been over 5 years since I came out, I live outside of house in another city, I'm about to graduate and my mom STILL says this to me, and you know what? I love it, because that's how she shows me how much she loves me and cares about my well being. So I think you should not think of this as her demonizing you but as someone who has never been exposed to this kind of thing and just needs time to adapt, try to look at it by her side and talk to her about it, your relationship will be stronger than ever.

 

[DoctorGamma]

I'm not entirely out yet (I don't try to hide it, but don't really talk about it). I haven't had much trouble with it where I live. People here (Maryland) don't really care much, minus the occasional redneck/Westboro Baptist Church Visit.

Glad to live in such a place :)

 

[Thund91]

So I'm completely new to this community, and I was watching some videos on Youtube.

And I have just learnt that lesbians are even more prejudiced towards bisexuals than straight people are.
This is a real shock for me. I thought people would have been supportive to all those who are under the LGBTQ umbrella.

I guess it's a bit like how inter-minority racism can be even more vigorous than white-to-minority racism?

Anyway, I was about to ask which LGBTQ community you go to, and do you get awful stuff like that?
Or is it actually better for me to not join? (especially when I'm religious)

I have been called a bad gay many times. How can someone even be a bad gay? LOL

Well apparently this is why:

Only about 5% of my friends are gay or bi.
Things like Same-Sex marriage isn't my priority where politics is concerned.
I don't go shouting "I'm gay" to everyone I cross in the street. Apparently I hate myself. Who knew?

This whole gay community, whatever it is, is splintered into many different parts. Worst of all, they can be just as venomous and hateful as the ones they accuse of doing the same to them.

Not only that, but you're only a jewel in the gay community if you're good looking and only want to believe what they believe. Acceptance for all! Unless you're feminine. Acceptance for all! Unless you're fat. Acceptance for all! Unless you're Bisexual. Acceptance for all! Unless you're a Republican. Acceptance for all! Unless you're a (BAN ME PLEASE). The list goes on and on.

This isn't a "community" I'd like to be a part of. Honestly, this whole gay community is a relic of the past imo. It's the 21st century, I don't need to be surrounded by gay people to make myself feel better. I'm perfectly fine living my life the way I always did. I don't need to go marching around parades in West Hollywood to prove that I'm gay. It's something I already know.

Now I don't want to make it seem that you or anyone else shouldn't join any gay support groups or things like that; I'm sure there are tons of good ones out there. It's just been ingrained so much in our heads that we need to be a part of this big community which is quite frankly, bullshit.

/Rant over

 

[DoctorGamma]

I have been called a bad gay many times. How can someone even be a bad gay? LOL

Well apparently this is why:

Only about 5% of my friends are gay or bi.
Things like Same-Sex marriage isn't my priority where politics is concerned.
I don't go shouting "I'm gay" to everyone I cross in the street. Apparently I hate myself. Who knew?

This whole gay community, whatever it is, is splintered into many different parts. Worst of all, they can be just as venomous and hateful as the ones they accuse of doing the same to them.

Not only that, but you're only a jewel in the gay community if you're good looking and only want to believe what they believe. Acceptance for all! Unless you're feminine. Acceptance for all! Unless you're fat. Acceptance for all! Unless you're Bisexual. Acceptance for all! Unless you're a Republican. Acceptance for all! Unless you're a (BAN ME PLEASE). The list goes on and on.

This isn't a "community" I'd like to be a part of. Honestly, this whole gay community is a relic of the past imo. It's the 21st century, I don't need to be surrounded by gay people to make myself feel better. I'm perfectly fine living my life the way I always did. I don't need to go marching around parades in West Hollywood to prove that I'm gay. It's something I already know.

Now I don't want to make it seem that you or anyone else shouldn't join any gay support groups or things like that; I'm sure there are tons of good ones out there. It's just been ingrained so much in our heads that we need to be a part of this big community which is quite frankly, bullshit.

/Rant over

I know, right? The majority of it is a bunch of hypocrites that are just like the rest. I don't even get what's up with the whole "Gays hate bi people"; that just blows my mind. You're not a bad gay; everyone else is just stupid :)

 

[Crux]

Most of that sentiment stems from two things: 1) the assimilation of bi (and other) people into a movement that has different goals and values than they do as a result of the gay liberation movement collapsing into the gay rights movement and 2) the adoption of heterosexual practices and conceptions of gender / sex / beauty roles into (especially male) gay discourse and relationships which caused the aforementioned collapse. Both of those stem from a lack of understanding of different nexuses of oppression and how they intersect, and a perverse focus on "individual freedom" that really just sought freedom to do the same things that previously oppressed homosexuals (and continue to do so) rather than overthrowing those structures, like freedom to fuck anyone whenever and the creation of gay clubs / cruising etc.

I think you are right to resent both of those things.