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np: XY UU Stage 2 - Light Em Up
- Thread starter kokoloko
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I've encountered a few Tornadus-T and I gotta say... I underestimated that things bulk BY FAR. I suppose its due to the AV but god dang. I haven't had that much of a problem with it because I do run Meowstic and I always manage to prankster t-wave it, if it weren't for that, this thing would probably wreck through my team now that I think about it.
Ive actually seen a bit of noivern pop up over the past few days. It was pretty weird, but i forgot noivern sits at 123 speed and is one of the few pokes to hit torn t hard and fast. Even a specs boomburst from noivern has a good chance to ohko non-assvest torn t with sr on thr field.
Its a fantastic poke, but it can hit all walls for SE damage, whether its a pink core or offensive core. Its disruptive with knock off and has regenerator so it doesnt care about sr. I played against Kitten Milk and my pre evolved amphy static crippled him the rest of the match. Paralysis makes him much easier to handle, but outside of priority t wave (sableye and meowstic as somebodybmentioned before), obvious RK who have no ability in switching in on torn t (hera and shao) there really isnt too much that can "Reliably" counter or check torn t.
Mega amphy and mega aero are probably the closest counters to torn t and i think thats about all of the pokes who arent cleanly 2HKO by big bird...
Its a fantastic poke, but it can hit all walls for SE damage, whether its a pink core or offensive core. Its disruptive with knock off and has regenerator so it doesnt care about sr. I played against Kitten Milk and my pre evolved amphy static crippled him the rest of the match. Paralysis makes him much easier to handle, but outside of priority t wave (sableye and meowstic as somebodybmentioned before), obvious RK who have no ability in switching in on torn t (hera and shao) there really isnt too much that can "Reliably" counter or check torn t.
Mega amphy and mega aero are probably the closest counters to torn t and i think thats about all of the pokes who arent cleanly 2HKO by big bird...
Part of what makes Tornadus-T broken is that none of these Pokemon have reliable recovery of their own, and they'll all slowly be whittled down while Tornadus stays healthy. Jolteon and Raikou are vulnerable to all forms of hazards, and Rotom-H is weak to Stealth Rock.
Patrick1088: Sableye doesn't get Thunder Wave.
Patrick1088: Sableye doesn't get Thunder Wave.
Lord of Bays though Mega-Aero does have Roost as a Pokemon with reliable recovery and checks Torn-T rather well.
mega-aero has roost, mega-amph can very viably run rest talk, forry has pain split (lol)
My bad, I was talking specifically about those Electric-types cited. Mega Aero is really the only outlier, though I would give that Mega Ampharos is the next best answer. Aerodactyl needs to look out for Superpower or Focus Blast, so it's not always safe to switch in or Roost.
I might be stretching this just a tad, but when you AREN'T running Mega Aero or Ampharos? You get shit-stomped unless you completely outplay your opponent.
Sorry, forgot to mention Forretress, but Taunt stops Pain Split, Gyro Ball is very easily stalled out, and he gets the shit slapped out of him by the special set. It's not a fantastic answer:
I might be stretching this just a tad, but when you AREN'T running Mega Aero or Ampharos? You get shit-stomped unless you completely outplay your opponent.
Sorry, forgot to mention Forretress, but Taunt stops Pain Split, Gyro Ball is very easily stalled out, and he gets the shit slapped out of him by the special set. It's not a fantastic answer:
Lord of Bays Whoops, you're right. I guess I got my prankster pokes confused :-P
Although we still need two more months of stats before the higher tiers update. If we only used this months stats the only changes would be
Hello!
(again)
Going to ru!
(lol wtf)
http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-06/ou-1695.0.txt
http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-06/uu-1630.0.txt
these are where the usage stats are from
Hello!
Going to ru!
http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-06/ou-1695.0.txt
http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-06/uu-1630.0.txt
these are where the usage stats are from
Torn-t is broken. The only issue I can think of is a real lack or a good STAB move. Air Slash is weak, Hurricane misses a lot, and Acrobatics requires no item to be effective.
I was just posting a tiny flaw. Pretty much every torn-t is is broken post is valid
I was just posting a tiny flaw. Pretty much every torn-t is is broken post is valid
Tornadus-T is broken because it looks like a big dumb bird with a tail, and such abominations of nature should not be present in the UU metagame at any point and time. Fucking mustache birds freak me out.
Back to Deli's post, Quagsire would've been a very good addition to UU in this metagame as it's a very good answer to Physical set-up sweepers such as SD Luke as well as act as stall's answer to set-up Stallbreakers like Sigilyph. I'm still livid about Baton Pass skewing obvious non-OU Pokemon into OU.
Back to Deli's post, Quagsire would've been a very good addition to UU in this metagame as it's a very good answer to Physical set-up sweepers such as SD Luke as well as act as stall's answer to set-up Stallbreakers like Sigilyph. I'm still livid about Baton Pass skewing obvious non-OU Pokemon into OU.
According to OU usage, Hippo and Mew could be going up tho (going along with deli's post). In other words, sadface :(((
1825 stats aren't used for tiering.
ooo, I thought it was 1760, but I didn't see any. What is the cut off stats for tiering then?
My opinion: Tornadus-T is ridiculously broken because all of its "counters" just get worn down by u-turn while torn-t stays at 100% due to regenerator. It kills 3/4 of the tier easily with knock off/acrobatics/taunt/u-turn, and is insanely hard to kill because of regen. You can't burn it because of taunt (and no item set with acro/knock off/u-turn/taunt is its best set) and its speed means it outspeeds almost all of the non-scarfed mons in the tier, especially paired with knock off which means that you can't switch in your scarfer due to losing your scarf. Unprepared teams (which is any team without mega aero/mega amph/mega aggron or other really bulky steels) get taken apart piece by piece. And the main thing for me: You can't wish pass bc of taunt, so your "walls" get killed slowly with u-turn. That's my two cents.
Mega-Amp??????????? Mega- Aero???????????????????
And saying counters get worn down by U-Turn is such a bad argument. By that logic, Raikou is broken because its counters are worn down by HP Ice/Grass and Volt Switch. Mienshao hits just as hard, if not harder, and has U-Turn with Regen/Reckless. I'm not sure how Torn-T destroys 3/4 of the tier with Knock Off/Acro/U-Turn/Taunt. Things like Mega-Amp, bulky waters, and fast scarfers can beat Tornadus without too much problem.
If Torn runs taunt, it doesn't mean it can't be burned. Flame Body and Scald exist in the tier, tho the latter is a bit uncommon, it still is there (Chandelure). If the main thing that gets you is the fact that you can't wish protect, stall-breaker Mew isn't exactly easy to wish up on.
With a lot of priority (Flect, E-Speed, BP) Torn can be worn down. If it runs taunt, it doesn't have the bulk of Assault Vest, meaning threats such as Flame Charge Mega-Doom can beat it. If it runs Vest, you can set up on it with things such as CroCune.
I don't think Torn should stay UU, but I can definitely see it staying. I just don't think ass arguments for it being banned should be the reason it gets banned.
They get worn down easily because they have no leftovers and Ampharos only has rest for recovery.
UU ALL DAY Fletch needs to be at +2 to OHKO with Acrobatics. Even an unboosted Acrobatics fails to OHKO with SR on the field.
252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 162-192 (54.1 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
From the other side of the coin:
252 Atk Tornadus-T Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Fletchinder: 243-286 (83.5 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If you add in SR or even the slightest of damage (not unrealistic with 62/55/52 defenses), then Fletch is toast.
Let's look at other priority users
252+ Atk Choice Band Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 154-182 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 134-159 (44.6 - 53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 200-238 (66.6 - 79.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Priority isn't even guaranteed to properly RK the bird. While on the other side:
252 Atk Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 294-346 (104.6 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tornadus-T Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 180-213 (56 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Neither can switch in on Torn-T, so that means you either have to tank a hit from Torn-T, or go for the RK after sacking a poke. Priority can check Torn-T sometimes. If only weavile wasn't banned...
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 198-234 (66 - 78%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
oh wait, nevermind....
252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 162-192 (54.1 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
From the other side of the coin:
252 Atk Tornadus-T Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Fletchinder: 243-286 (83.5 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If you add in SR or even the slightest of damage (not unrealistic with 62/55/52 defenses), then Fletch is toast.
Let's look at other priority users
252+ Atk Choice Band Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 154-182 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 134-159 (44.6 - 53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 200-238 (66.6 - 79.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Priority isn't even guaranteed to properly RK the bird. While on the other side:
252 Atk Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 294-346 (104.6 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tornadus-T Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 180-213 (56 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Neither can switch in on Torn-T, so that means you either have to tank a hit from Torn-T, or go for the RK after sacking a poke. Priority can check Torn-T sometimes. If only weavile wasn't banned...
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 198-234 (66 - 78%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
oh wait, nevermind....
Firstly, Volt Switch/hidden power grass/ice is entirely different than u-turning. The whole idea behind u-turn + regen is that it's healing while dealing damage. And, sure, bulky waters can beat it too, but what I'm saying is that torn-t can easily come in on pokemon like Machamp, and when you bring in your bulky water it takes 10-20% damage from u-turn while torn recovers off. It gets free switches and generates free turns for its teammates: For instance, it can easily grab free spikes for Roserade or free subs for Shaymin because it draws in Suicune/Slowbro/Swampert etc. I don't understand how saying things get worn down by u-turn is a bad argument, since it's unlike any other u-turner except for mienshao in the fact that it's giving itself health back when it's u-turning. And the thing with mienshao is that its bulk is WAY less than torn-t.
With scald, the scalders in UU are bulky waters and as long as you have something to deal with them, torn-t lures them in for a teammate. This means things like shaymin get free room to launch seed flares.
please explain more exactly how saying that u-turn wears down most of the tier, the only things that can safely switch into an acrobatics or a knock off are bulky waters/steels/mega aero/mega amph and taunt shuts down a lot of its common walls is a bad argument. Because I'm not seeing it.
For everyone saying U-Turn wears down counters, what do you think the point of U-Turn is? It's called Chip damage. Just because a mon has it doesn't automatically mean it's great. And Mega-Amp doesn't have reliable recovery other than rest, but it has the bulk needed to. And things like Bulky Waters generally have lefties, ie slowbro, suicine, pert.
With all these calcs, everyone is assuming Torn is at full health, (apparently SR isn't a factor), so it would only be fair for torn's checks and counters to be at full.
I really don't care whether it gets banned or not, but in truth, most of the people who are bitching are the ones who are simply too lazy to predict if torn is going to u-turn, or refuse to make aggressive plays. I guess that explains why florges has such high usage, shrugs
torn itself isn't inherently broken. It is harder to play around, but then again things like infernape are hard to play around too. Maybe because torn doesn't have one definitive counter people are complaining, but it doesn't have the raw stat or reliable moves to do hue damage. Hurricane and focus blast are its best special moves with not-so great acc, and coverage moves like grass knot and knock off are about as crazy as its movepool gets. knock off gets annoying, yes, but that's why everything that has a decent knock off is banned.
torn doesn't make the meta unhealthy. grass types are still able to beat bulky waters and still lose to fast flying types (ie crobat). torn can provide decent pivotal needs when using vest, but then it loses a lot more utility. the taunt set is great, but once the movepool is revealed, it is a lot easier to play around with.
and to go along with the reasoning of not leftovers for megas, if torn runs knock off, it the mon doesn't have an item anymore, thus ridding of a mon of its "reliable recovery." torn t can wear down counters, but things like scarfshao, victini, raikou can all do the same while offering other fucntions that torn can offer. the only thing it lacks is regen, but things like specs slowbro, or just slowbro in general can do things like that as well.
idk, maybe im old fashioned, but i generally like playing games where i dont see the same mon every battle. if i wanted to see cookie cutter teams, i'd play ou
torn allows things such as jolteon have a chance at shining, and gives stall something to have to play around, while offensive teams also have something to use and be afraid of.
I think you're missing the inherent problem of Tornadus-T's U-turn. Tornadus is fast, extremely so. Alakazam set a new standard for a very short while, and then Torn-T was unbanned, and whoops, now Alakazam is too fucking slow. Against other fast U-turners (Scarf Victini, Darmanitan, Hydreigon), priority chip damage means a lot because they don't get 33% of their HP back on the switch. Mienshao is a borderline case because he DOES get Regenerator, but he's also extremely frail and sometimes runs Reckless. Against Tornadus, you need some seriously unholy amounts of priority damage, potentially on top of Stealth Rock, for that to mean anything.
"too lazy to predict if torn is going to u-turn" is a really really shitty sentiment. What does it matter if you predict the U-turn? HE GETS 33% OF HIS HP BACK AND THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO STOP IT. Shit, it even dodges Pursuit, while unless you have a SLOWER U-turn, the opposing player brings out their answer to whatever you have, guaranteed, every time. Torn-T may not be "broken" like Mega Blaziken is, but he's NOT healthy for the metagame.
One last remark: If you don't like playing the same teams over and over, why the fuck are you in UU? Florges and Blissey are insanely popular and Tornadus-T is becoming JUST as common.
"too lazy to predict if torn is going to u-turn" is a really really shitty sentiment. What does it matter if you predict the U-turn? HE GETS 33% OF HIS HP BACK AND THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO STOP IT. Shit, it even dodges Pursuit, while unless you have a SLOWER U-turn, the opposing player brings out their answer to whatever you have, guaranteed, every time. Torn-T may not be "broken" like Mega Blaziken is, but he's NOT healthy for the metagame.
One last remark: If you don't like playing the same teams over and over, why the fuck are you in UU? Florges and Blissey are insanely popular and Tornadus-T is becoming JUST as common.
I am sorry but did you see the UU prior to Torn-T being unbanned? He was the UU equivalent of Heatran in that you just saw him everywhere because of the draw back free support he offers in addition to decent threat on his own with the unpredictability he had to offer with various sets.
I don't think Torn T is broken, he's everywhere (and he should be) but he's not 2hkoing things like Weavile did or walling half the metagame like Chansey was. People say OMG REGENERATOR, but he's weak to rocks. Essentially all that chip damage you land on him is permanent when rocks are on the field. He also can't break walls without life orb, which hurts his survivability even more. Then you realize his best STAB is 70% accurate. Itemless physical sets work but are walled by any bulky water or tank not named Chesnaught, and therefore not hard to find a switch in for.
I feel like he's going to stay banned just because people are already in that mindset that he's broken, but as a neutral observer with 0 emotional investment either way, I think he should stay.
I feel like he's going to stay banned just because people are already in that mindset that he's broken, but as a neutral observer with 0 emotional investment either way, I think he should stay.
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