It's Scarf set and Swords Dance set is still really good it's just people sorta just take it for granted IMO. Other scarf users etc Keldeo and Terrakion are weak to Smogbird and Thundurus to an extent as if they get crippled by that T-wave they are basically useless. Tyrannitar is bulky as hell but even with a scarf it is slow and it's rock Stab is pretty unreliable and if it's rock slide pretty weak. Excadrill is something I could see giving competition as a scarf user as Jolly Excadrill outspeeds Adamant Char X and resists Brave Bird. However, Chompy is really the only thing out there that combines bulk, power and speed into a very reliable package. The swords dance set I am not too sure about so I won't comment about it tho. It is a solid A+ rank mon
I would just like to point out that the rise in Set-up and baton Pass pokemon's viability in particular is one reason why Breloom should be boosted to A. Spore helps stop setup cold thanks to it's sash.
Just five pages ago Dragonite was brought up, and it was decided that it shouldn't be moved up. You aren't bringing anything up new, so I doubt in like four days people would change their minds. Here's the paragraph disagreeing with it moving up, if you're interested.
That doesn't go to say it can't move up; once the Deos go, it will definitely be better. I feel like nominating it then work work, but not now.
The reason neither of those sets truly make it top tier is because both face serious competition from other pokemon. DD WP nite is hard to set up due to it's weakness to stealth rock, it's reliance on getting hit with a super effective attack, and it's speed (which you never really addressed). DD nite also faces some of the stiffest competition for a role in the tier, Between M-Tyranitar, M-Gyara, and X-Zard. Dragonite's advantage is that it doesn't take up a mega slot, can hold an item, has multiscale and extremespeed. All three of the above have the advantage of higher power, (not including WP) with tyranitar having the advantage of overall superior bulk, a more effective STAB, and chip damage for 4 turns. Gyarados has better speed, again better stab, and Mold Breaker. Zard-X is faster, has fire STAB, and is immune to burns. All 3 of those have more power and reliability than Dragonite in exchange for being able to use an item that relies on what your opponent does. If you think you would rather have the latter, so be it. But dragonite is generally outclassed by one of these three in the sweeper department.
he didn't refer CBNite as a gimmicky set but a top-tier set, which I personally believe is the best Nite set there is.
I actually somewhat agree with this.
I'm just wondering if you're talking about Choice band (CB)Nite or CrashinBoomBang(?) (CBB)Nite. He did refer to Choice Band Nite as a top tier threat, but threw in CBBNite with the gimmicks.
However it is also screwed over by every other S-Rank, setup for a few A+/A/A- ranks (like Clefable, Mega Mawile, Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, Scolipede), and loses to the half of A+ it doesn't screw with.
The problem is you only have room for 1, maybe 2 attacks, and running the second one means forgoing Spikey Shield/Substitute. It might not be "hard" countered, but it sure as hell has 4MSS and is easily dealt with after you reveal your attack(s).
You don't run Sub and Spiky Shield on the same set. Spiky Shield is just Protect except it deals a bit of damage. Yeah it's annoying but it's not as devastating as King's Shield which is completely crippling. It's used in pretty much the same way Protect is used, which is usually for scouting sets and handling choice-locked pokemon. However, while Spiky Shield is strictly better than Protect, it's often assumed that every Chesnaught carries it and this can work against it. Sub set meanwhile is good at luring in stuff the opponent thinks is a safe switch in, and the only 4MSS it really has is that it'd be nice to have both of EQ and Stone Edge/Rock Slide. Sub and Shield sets are both good sets but not Sub+Shield. It also has the spikes set by the way, and while it doesn't beat any defoggers it does threaten Excadrill so it's decent against teams that use him for hazard control.
I agree. It's pretty defining, but not as defining as Talonflame. A is perfect.
Agree too. Quagsire is perfect in stall, but it isn't something impossible to deal with. Toxic, Will-o-Wisp, Special attacks, and strong physical attacks break it. It checks a bunch of stuff, but isn't as good as A- mons, like Breloom.
Mantine is a niche specially defensive defogger. It boasts Water Absorb, Defog, and Scald to carve itself a niche. C- is perfect.
Alomomola is a great Wish passer. It has superb bulk, heals when it switched, and will basically always contribute to a game. It isn't outclassed by anything. It has a tiny niche, but is still worth using, and is imo as good, if not better, than the rest of the C rank.
Mantine and Alomomola all provide unique support. I suppose being able to Defog + use Haze behind opponents' Substitutes is cool, but I'm not sure if its a large enough of a niche.
Vaporeon faces a lot of competition as a bulky water, as it provides nothing unique. Wish is done better than Alomomola, and BP is restricted to three Pokemon now. It has little use. It isn't terrible, but then again, very little is. It faces Machamp syndrome imo; it isn't bad, but why would anyone use it when there are almost identical Pokemon that are better?
Darmanitan is a nuke; there's no doubt about it. However, when looking at the poor defenses, lack of priority, and immense recoil, most people decide to use Entei or Victini instead. Entei has a 1/2 of burning the opponent with every Sacred Fire, has powerful priority, and doesn't rely on any recoil based moves. It also has above average bulk. Victini has great bulk, versatility, even more power than Darmanitan, and lowers its stats instead of causing recoil, which is arguably better. Perhaps a D rank is suiting for Darm; it's comparable to Cloyster. Both are Pokemon that really aren't great and face immense competition, but have some niche to separate them from the rest of Pokemon.
Your suggestion that Band Nite faces competition preventing it from being a "truly top tier threat" makes me doubt if you've ever actually used banded Dragonite...
