Ladder Balanced Hackmons

Skydrop is pretty awesome move but unfortunantly I am not sure if it works on all mons
Last time I tried it, some of the more bigger juggernauts of BH/Uber gave me the message "target too heavy!" (???)
Otherwise I'd have tried to do already something similiar with a toxic/burn combo. :C
 

AWailOfATail

viva la darmz
According to bulbapedia:
"Targets weighing more than 440.9 lbs. (200 kg) cannot be lifted by Sky Drop, causing the move to fail."
And a lot of common BH pokes fall in this category.
 
Might I suggest something like Shadow Force, although you lose STAB, it has the same effect. I don't exactly recall who it was (a friend in the OM Room) but they used a Mega Banette to a similar effect with Shadow Force.
 
Might I suggest something like Shadow Force, although you lose STAB, it has the same effect. I don't exactly recall who it was (a friend in the OM Room) but they used a Mega Banette to a similar effect with Shadow Force.
The thing with Shadow Force is that No Guard mons can still hit you, Normal types are immune, and the opponent can set up in your face while you enter the semi-invulnerable state, so it isn't anywhere near a perfect replacement. It's unfortunate GF added that wieght mechanic in with Sky Drop. I wonder why they did that.
 
The thing with Shadow Force is that No Guard mons can still hit you, Normal types are immune, and the opponent can set up in your face while you enter the semi-invulnerable state, so it isn't anywhere near a perfect replacement. It's unfortunate GF added that wieght mechanic in with Sky Drop. I wonder why they did that.
Probably to keep assholes like us from doing what we're trying to do right now.
 

Kit Kasai

Love colored magic
I don't know why you guys are making such a big fuss, I used the exact same team 6 months ago and no one had a problem with it.

Saying something is uncompetitive for the meta just because stall can't reliably deal with it is not a valid argument. Gengar is a designated stallbreaker. That's exactly what the set is designed to do. However, what Gengar can't deal with is pretty much any form of offensive presence. Gengar can't do much harm against offensive teams. Adrian, I'm sorry to say this, but no matter how hard you try, there's no way to make a team that has a 100% chance to win against any match up. There's always going to be some match up that you can't reliably win against. Your style of stall already has a way higher chance of winning a match up than most offense teams, so I don't see why you should be complaining.

Basically, Illusion Gengar dies to anything that can deal damage.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Kit's Mega Gengar Illusion set really triggered this thought, Imposter has no way of stopping it and there's no way of knowing what the Illusion set is. I'm not talking about Illusion Belly Drum, that's easy to stop. I'm talking about intelligent use of Illusion.
to be honest, id consider imposter a "uncompetative" aspect of bh in itself. lol. i mean, your using a beefed up version of someone elses pokemon. how is that fair to your opponent and competative to the user? lol. i just feel like verbatims idea of this metagame wasnt "balanced and fair" but just to ban everything thats TOO powerful,(huge power, pure power and parental bond were all very powerful offensive abilities that outclassed everything almost and defensively, wonderguard is hard as shit to break offensively without mold breaker) and if shits still centralizing, then so be it. i mean, look at the stuff hes keeping in, infinitestall being a good example. im not trying to argue with you adrian, in fact, i agree, illusion is somewhat uncompetative, and i disagree with everyone argueing against you on this point, im just saying, something being uncompetative isn't a good enough reason to ban something in BH, or else imposter would've been looooong gone and infinitestall wouldn't have gotten the green flag. and i know you said NOTHING about banning illusion. i'm just kinda talking about asking to ban things in general for EVERYONE including myself. it just kinda popped in my head. could be wrong, but its really the only explanation i can think of that makes the most sense.

I don't know why you guys are making such a big fuss, I used the exact same team 6 months ago and no one had a problem with it.

Saying something is uncompetitive for the meta just because stall can't reliably deal with it is not a valid argument. Gengar is a designated stallbreaker. That's exactly what the set is designed to do. However, what Gengar can't deal with is pretty much any form of offensive presence. Gengar can't do much harm against offensive teams. Adrian, I'm sorry to say this, but no matter how hard you try, there's no way to make a team that has a 100% chance to win against any match up. There's always going to be some match up that you can't reliably win against. Your style of stall already has a way higher chance of winning a match up than most offense teams, so I don't see why you should be complaining.

Basically, Illusion Gengar dies to anything that can deal damage.
and just to not seem like an asshole to adrian, i shall also argue with the points you just made. noncompetitive and broken are two different words kit. something can be noncompetitive and easy as shit to beat, noncompetitive is the idea of something that is just unfair to the opponent, and illusion can be considered that. and before people go asking me "well why isnt zororark or whatever its name is uncompetative, because 1) team preview, and 2) locked ability, its not like anything else gets illusion, its not really a threat ENLESS someone sees zoruark on the opposing team. its uncompetative in bh, because its impossible to see coming and you can suffer casualties from facing it. however, as i outlined above, that doesn't make something worth banning tbh, and nor did adrian ever say it was, he just said it was noncompetitive.
 
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There's one thing that needs to be fixed in Balanced Hackmons: Imposter. Before I begin my argument, please read through my entire post instead of instantly saying "nuuu u r stupid and wrong!" (I presume none of you will, but still). Anyways, I'll begin now =). Imposter is basically copying you and making it buffer and stronger, especially with Chansey. This forces everything to run Anti-Imposter sets, from Judgment to general random shit. Chansey especially is so centralizing, I mean, let's compare its bulk for a moment:
  • 252+ SpA Kyogre Freeze Dry vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyogre: 116-138 (28.7 - 34.1%) -- 1.9% chance to 3HKO
  • 252+ SpA Kyogre Freeze Dry vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite 250 HP Kyogre: 78-94 (11 - 13.3%) -- possible 8HKO
See how drastic that change is? It seriously makes any Pokemon attempting to set up just not worth the time unless completely specialized. Plus, the variety doesn't stop there, it can run Lucky Punch, Red Card, and Toxic Orb. Some teams even run double-Chansey. Chansey forces every team to counter itself, basically, and is just so irritating to everything. How do you manage it? Honestly, you can either run Substitute, anti-Imposter sets, or random obscure shit. It basically forces any set up sweeper to counter itself, any other Pokemon to avoid doing much, and makes the battle shift. Honestly, it can be 5-2 with the player with 2 sending out a Chansey and instantly flip the game. I do feel Imposter is broken, it limits teambuilding and creativity, and is just not fun at all. So yeah, this is my pitch on why something has to be done about either Imposter or Chansey.
 
There's one thing that needs to be fixed in Balanced Hackmons: Imposter. Before I begin my argument, please read through my entire post instead of instantly saying "nuuu u r stupid and wrong!" (I presume none of you will, but still). Anyways, I'll begin now =). Imposter is basically copying you and making it buffer and stronger, especially with Chansey. This forces everything to run Anti-Imposter sets, from Judgment to general random shit. Chansey especially is so centralizing, I mean, let's compare its bulk for a moment:
  • 252+ SpA Kyogre Freeze Dry vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyogre: 116-138 (28.7 - 34.1%) -- 1.9% chance to 3HKO
  • 252+ SpA Kyogre Freeze Dry vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite 250 HP Kyogre: 78-94 (11 - 13.3%) -- possible 8HKO
See how drastic that change is? It seriously makes any Pokemon attempting to set up just not worth the time unless completely specialized. Plus, the variety doesn't stop there, it can run Lucky Punch, Red Card, and Toxic Orb. Some teams even run double-Chansey. Chansey forces every team to counter itself, basically, and is just so irritating to everything. How do you manage it? Honestly, you can either run Substitute, anti-Imposter sets, or random obscure shit. It basically forces any set up sweeper to counter itself, any other Pokemon to avoid doing much, and makes the battle shift. Honestly, it can be 5-2 with the player with 2 sending out a Chansey and instantly flip the game. I do feel Imposter is broken, it limits teambuilding and creativity, and is just not fun at all. So yeah, this is my pitch on why something has to be done about either Imposter or Chansey.
The thing about banning Chansey (I'm going to say chansey, as the majority of your argument was based on Eviolite's efficiency) is that chansey is probably the only thing keeping BH from being a repetitive fuckfest. Without Chansey around to check set up sweepers, every team is forced to run an Unaware and hope the opposing sweeper isn't Mold Breaker. I do agree that chansey is a very good pokemon, but I feel like the meta would be a lot less fun without chansey within it, and I'd say most players would agree.
 
The thing about banning Chansey (I'm going to say chansey, as the majority of your argument was based on Eviolite's efficiency) is that chansey is probably the only thing keeping BH from being a repetitive fuckfest. Without Chansey around to check set up sweepers, every team is forced to run an Unaware and hope the opposing sweeper isn't Mold Breaker. I do agree that chansey is a very good pokemon, but I feel like the meta would be a lot less fun without chansey within it, and I'd say most players would agree.
I see how this is taken this way, but honestly, I still don't agree with it. Maybe it's just Chansey in particular, but Unaware isn't even half bad and Poison Heal would still be pretty good against setting up; everything has its checks, even setup sweepers. I'm very fascinated about how it would look w/o Imposter, I don't think it would be as crazy as many people think it would be.
 
I see how this is taken this way, but honestly, I still don't agree with it. Maybe it's just Chansey in particular, but Unaware isn't even half bad and Poison Heal would still be pretty good against setting up; everything has its checks, even setup sweepers. I'm very fascinated about how it would look w/o Imposter, I don't think it would be as crazy as many people think it would be.
Unaware and Poison Heal are both relatively easy to stop compared to Imposter Chansey though. Mold Breaker, an already common offensive ability due to SturdNinja, can blow through Unaware, and Poison Heal has been given a number of checks, albeit niche, such as Rumors Natural Cure Skill Swap Registeel. Imposter gives a very reliable check/counter to most set up sweepers in the tier that don't account for it.
 
Unaware and Poison Heal are both relatively easy to stop compared to Imposter Chansey though. Mold Breaker, an already common offensive ability due to SturdNinja, can blow through Unaware, and Poison Heal has been given a number of checks, albeit niche, such as Rumors Natural Cure Skill Swap Registeel. Imposter gives a very reliable check/counter to most set up sweepers in the tier that don't account for it.
That's why I'm saying either Imposter or Chansey needs to be fixed. Imposter can also be hard to stop itself, it may do good, but I find it doing worse than good.
 
Why have we suddenly started talking about all these bans? Imposter and Illusion aren't game-breaking. imo if anything needs to go right now, it's evasion
 

AWailOfATail

viva la darmz
Adrian Marin, no offense man, but I think you might be a bit too quick to call for bans on things. If your stall teams can't deal with Illusion, you have two options: a) try a different playstyle, b)deal with it.
Yeah, you really do jump the gun a lot. Remember Thousand Waves? "2 stronk plz ban"
And now it's on your team.

Let's try not to ban anything until ORAS comes around. (Speaking of which, ogre and groudon will be broke as fuck unless it goes into their other attacking stat)
 
This is good, but I would highly recommend Sacred Fire to beat Shedinja and physical attackers. Also, I don't understand why you have a Lonely nature.
Oops! Forgot about the lonely nature! I misclicked and clicked on a special attack, then when I clicked on the subjected spread, it chose lonely. Thanks for the advice though!

Edit: Decided to swap Blot Strike for Sacred Fire.
 
Adrian Marin, no offense man, but I think you might be a bit too quick to call for bans on things. If your stall teams can't deal with Illusion, you have two options: a) try a different hyper offense
I totally agree with this statement, we are a little quick to jump for bans but I honestly do feel evasion deserves at the very least a suspect people talk about prankster leads but, should you steal the boosts you're doing the exact same thing your opponent is doing and that is being a dick. Tagging YoungKingPat because he's the leader of this cause.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
okay, i feel like i need to rephrase what i said earlier since it seems many of you disagree with me (or just didn't see what i wrote lol) balance is a very tricky word. and nomatter how hard verbatim will try, he will NEVER be able to do it, because bh is vast. balanced hackmons cannot be balanced because that is simply impossible in a metagame where possibilities are near infinite. His metagame is practically "hackmons without broken shit like wonderguard and ohko moves,(and soon after shadow tag, hp pp and pb)" imposter, evasion and all the other things we are talking about will not be banned because they are not broken enough in that regard to be banned in verbatims eyes. people have tried and failed to get verbatim to ban imposter, infinitestall, and such, so what makes you think he will change his mind now? the problem with banning imposter and evasion, is that they are just uncompetative, but nothing more. they aren't wonderguard, or shadow tag, which is just fucking your opponent over COMPLETELY if they get a bad matchup. and its not huge power pure power or parental bond, where it outclasses half the abilities in the game simply for being too GOOD. imposter fucks over your opponent...but it just isnt much of a threat and its easy to get around by simply building your team more intelligently, since you have the power to do so in BH. and evasion has HUNDREDS of ways to get past it including just being lucky. we need to stop thinking that verbatim actually meant for this meta to be "100% balanced" and realize its just a name he came up with. the first post even admits this somewhat in saying "restrictions to teambuilding" rather then "STUFF THATS CENTRALIZED HORRIBLY" and yes, chansey does count as restricting teambuilding, but its an exception because imposter uses YOUR sets. so although you have to teambuild around them, you can do so with relative ease since YOUR in control of your opponents chanseys sets, and it doesnt hurt your team in a SERIOUS way. its not like wonder guard where your forced to run a mold breaker poke or status in EVERY offensive team just to hit the darn things. and its not shadow tag that forces you to stay in unfavorable situations.

now, i will admit, i dislike imposter, i find it broken, and id love to have it banned. but as i mentioned in this post, it just isn't BROKEN enough to warrant a suspect. same with evasion. i mean hell, if infinitestalling is in the meta, then i doubt evasion has a chance of leaving either. im not verbatim though, so i dont know if that's even true or not. To be honest, id love it if verbatim came on and told us what is considered "banworthy" because then we at least KNOW what defines something bannable, because "centralization" and "unfair" are definitely not the case and it would end all the arguments about banning stuff(maybe put it in the first page since that is kinda vital info). lol. but i doubt he will see this. or feel the need to respond to me. xD so whatever.
 
Ok for those who have played throwback, we all know that the only way to stop setup without imposter/prank is unaware which therefore centralizes unaware. Imposter is the glue in the meta that keeps it intact without it the metagame would be filled to the brim with insane setup sweepers. Sure it restricts teambuilding terribly but for the sake of not letting set up sweepers be broken we shouldn't ban or even suspect imposter.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Ok for those who have played throwback, we all know that the only way to stop setup without imposter/prank is unaware which therefore centralizes unaware. Imposter is the glue in the meta that keeps it intact without it the metagame would be filled to the brim with insane setup sweepers. Sure it restricts teambuilding terribly but for the sake of not letting set up sweepers be broken we shouldn't ban or even suspect imposter.
i hate to post so soon, but that isnt nessisarily true. we COULD ban tail glow, quiver dance(that spc def boost can fuck you over quick), shell smash and shift gear(which are all arguably the broken part of setup sweepers), to force people to use nasty plot, swords dance, calm mind, and dragon dance to kinda, slow down setup sweepers. we could ban poison heal if it gets too powerful. and so on and so forth. if verbatim wanted to go the "ban imposter" route, he could go ban imposter route, and it can work. but he doesn't. and that's probably for the better too. since that could potentially erase half the current metagame and make it stale. its kinda a risk reward he decided against taking. and i mean, we allready banned the ohko moves, so its not like banning attacks are a new thing to bh. but again, im against banning chansey mainly due to what ranger mike said. i dont want that big of a change in meta. maybe a "no 150+ hp imposter" clause? lol it would make imposter so much easier to handle, without ruining imposter in itself, and it also gives pokemon like latios mega, marowak, and ...*gulp* pikachu more reason to run imposter.
 
To be completely honest, I do not think that Imposter is broken at all in the current metagame, as people have been saying. Chansey is definitely something that one needs to consider while making a team, but it isn't very hard to make a team Chansey-proof. A while ago, in order to do this, I had all of my sweepers walled by Shedinja, and when Chansey switched in, I would switch in Shedinja. If the opponent had a Shedinja as well, I would use my Mold Breaker Pursuit Giratina. With a team like that, you could have 4-5 (5 if you have an offensive mold breaker with Pursuit) offensive members and a Shedinja, and you'd still be Chansey proof. You would not have to consider making your individual sets Chansey proof, as your entire team would be because of how it was designed. Now, of course, when I ran that style of team, I did not have 4-5 offensive members, and instead had 2 offense, 2 defense, Gira, and Shed.

Now, I've been using a different strategy for walling my team. I run balanced offense/defense, so I generally have one or two bulky pivots that have utility for my team. Anyways, I realized that I could run sweepers that could destroy large amounts of the metagame with ease, but still be walled by these two bulky pivots.
My most recent "good" team (e.g. not my gimmick teams) has a Protean Mewtwo Mega Y with the moveset Volt Switch, Moonblast, Steam Eruption, and Switcheroo. It has Choice Specs. This set is incredibly strong, capable of destroying many bulky Pokemon, especially OHKOing Scizor Mega with Specs Steam Eruption. In order to wall this, I use a Pokemon that I would have on my team anyways, even if Chansey didn't exist. I run Magic Bounce Venusaur-Mega with Venusaurite. None of the attacks do very much damage to Venusaur, as it is a bulky Pokemon that resists all of its coverage. It's also not common enough in the current metagame that I have a problem with my Mewtwo being walled. And just in case there is another Venusaur-Mega, I have something capable of killing that.
My other sweeper is a Protean Slaking (this sounds like an odd choice for Protean but bear with me) with the moveset Shadow Sneak, Extreme Speed, V-Create, and Thousand Arrows. Now I use Slaking because this is a Gengar-Mega check, switching into Judgment, then Slaking uses Shadow Sneak, doing a lot of damage and becoming immune to the move that comes next, Secret Sword. Then, it uses Extreme Speed to become immune to Judgment, and then Shadow Sneak/Thousand Arrows to solidify the kill. V-Create is just a powerful move that destroys anything that doesn't resist it, for the most part. V-Create + Extreme Speed KOs Yveltal. I wall this with another thing that I have on my team anyways, a Flash Fire Scizor-Mega. It is bulky, a terrific Kyu-B switchin, and a perfect counter to my set. A Chansey would need to crit twice when I was at 75% in order to kill me (IIRC). In the mean time, I can boost my attack with Meteor Mash (hopefully), and Roost/King's Shield my way to victory.
My last two members are Chanseys, because she is still an incredibly useful Pokemon for scouting, and I counter sweep if I get the chance (meaning the opponent hasn't taken time to make their team Chansey-proof like I have).
 
Sorry for double posting but I feel like adding this in an edit wouldn't be a good idea because of how much new stuff I'm adding. Forgot to put this in the last post.
Now as a kind of conclusion to my argument, Chansey is a very big threat in BH (and Pure Hackmons by extension, but that's outside the scope of this post), but she also helps balance the metagame. Stall relies on her in order to scout out the opponent, as in this metagame, any Pokemon can run (almost) any move, and it removes any surprise moves that would otherwise catch the staller off guard (in standards, the biggest surprise for a stall team is probably a Hidden Power). Offense relies on her to pivot from one Pokemon to another while also allowing counter sweeps to happen to unsuspecting victims. If being used as a pivot, she can be used to scout the opponent and determine what strategy they are using. Chansey is a good counter to Baton Pass teams often, because she is able to switch in and steal boosts if there is no substitute, and if there is, she can either Skill Swap Imposter (transforming them into you) or use Whirlwind, breaking the chain.

To be honest, part of what makes BH fun for me is making sets that are anti Chansey. On numerous occasions I have made a Bulletproof Lucario Mega with good coverage using the Ball and Bomb moves, and Fist Plate Judgment for Chansey. Her Judgment is resisted whereas mine is super effective, and after a Tail Glow, this sweeper is very hard to stop. I know of two people using Hidden Power to counter Chansey (Unfixable with 4x weaknesses and Uselesscrab with Technician). My friend who has no account on the forums came up with Adaptability Judgment in order to be anti Imposter. Cyclopyge used Lucario Mega for this set, and I used Reshiram. Both were very strong as well as being Chansey-proof. Chansey may be annoying to deal with if you are unprepared (hello Contrary sweepers), but if you design your team well, she will not be a threat to you, and you have an advantage over your opponent as they have one (or two) useless members of their team.

Edit: Forgot a fun anti Imposter set: Shell Smash Fridge Kyu-B with Extremspeed, Crabhammer, and Horn Leech, walled by a Water Absorb Heatran with Thousand Arrows, Topsy Turvy, Perish Song, and recovery. Also on that same team: Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega with Choice Specs Boomburst, Steam Eruption, and Sludge Wave, walled by the same Heatran.
 

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