np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[Ajwf]

So running a sub-optimal moveset to deal with a Pokemon is a "smart" now?

So when Aegi runs one of it's other sets to deal with a "common threat" (questionable due to most of his counter's usage), it's called "Versatility". Toted as one of the reasons you'd have him banned. However, when a mon runs EQ to deal with Aegislash, it's called "Sub-optimal"? Don't get me wrong: EQ on just about any physical mon is just as good if not better than Head Smash aegi, providing more relevant attack options vs threats like ZardX and heatran outside of aegi (as opposed to just really targeting Zadpos/mandi).

Why the double standards? Earlier you preached how the multiple attacking options were "versatility" and added to his ban laundry list. Sub-optimal movesets on aegi really are anything that isn't subtoxic or standard crumbler. If your team needs to deal with something else, I guess you use a suboptimal moveset. HOWEVER, this is no different from you looking at a team and saying "Hmm, I'll deal with aegi better to add EQ/SuckerPunch/Fire coverage here."

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

The argument I dont like seeing is..."well its hard to switch into mega mawile" or "well thundurus has a lot of sets". Who cares about those pokes? We arent talking about them, this isnt a compare aegislash to other S rank mons thread, it is to discuss if aegislash should be ubers. This conversation should exclude comparisons to other mons that may get suspect tested in the future(unless we are talking about them as viable checks or counters to aegislash obviously). If your best argument for not banning aegilsash is that mawile is also hard to switch in on, then you dont have an argument at all.

 

[Beastly Grant]

I have played in OU for quite a while, getting decent rank and all that, but this will be the first (and hopefully the last) Suspect test that I need to voice out.

After glancing through "almost" every comment, I find some are valid, and some are just outright hilarious.

People keep on saying things like "Aegislash has many sets with different counters" and "King Shield is OP" and "it is overcentralised the metagame". Let's think this way: Why does Aegislash even consider a threat? Sure, it does has a pseudo 150/150 stats, amazing ability and King's Shield, but when it comes to play around Aegislash is limited to just that. Even though theoretically, Aegislash has a lot of sets, yet when it comes to reality the most Aegislash you can see is KS + 3 moves Offense. Yes, he may have multiple moveset such as SubToxic or the rarest, Swords Dance, but it is too revealing after the first move and a standard OU team would be able to maneuver after knowing the set Aegislash is playing. Aegislash is not a versatile Pokemon when it comes to surprise moveset - it is actually limited in the playstyle: Mixed Offense, SubToxic, Physical Offense, and all can be handled well, unlike those that are already been banned like Mega Lucario who can outright sweep with little to no counter or Deoxys-S who is just too good with great amount of set. With that, the argument "Aegislash has many sets with different counters" is irrelevant.

Now let's talk about King's Shield. People have been saying that this is the niche of Aegislash, making it hard to counter. However, this is where prediction comes in, and if you do have decent skill already King's Shield is just another Protect. It does change its form to Shield form, but then again, it is a double-edge sword in front of those that can set up, such as Bisharp's Swords Dance or Dragonite's Dragon Dance or Substitute or whatever I have not mentioned. King's Shield is OP!? I certainly doubt so as if predicted right, it's just another Protect to many players *lol*

Moving on to the most popular opinion of all, "Aegislash overcentralises the metagame". I actually do feel it has substance, since from the beginning of the metagame the presence of Aegislash does affect the Pokemon in the metagame. However, when we look fair and square, we can see a vicious circle: A is overcentralised >> A is banned >> B moves up and dictates the Metagame >> B is overcentralised >> B is banned >> ... (Kinda hilarious, as with this rate I do believe all OU Pokemons will be banned and UU will be OU, lol). Assuming Aegislash will get banned, we will see a load of Pokemon having greater viability like Mega Heracross, Mega Gardevoir or Mega Medicham (especially this) along with stuff like Hawlucha, Breloom and probably the Three Musketeers as well and those already strong can benefit as well (Mega Pinsir, Lati@s...). However, banning Aegislash leaves a great scar to the metagame and after being filled by the newly arisen beast, another will continue to be suspect (I'm looking right at Mega Pinsir and Mega Medicham pal). The ban is ultimately dependent on what most players want for OU Metagame, and I seriously think Aegislash makes it interesting with all the amount of prediction and mind game it brings. Of course, people keep saying things like "the Metagame will change" etc. but in my opinion, it is already good as it should be in the presence that need not to be changed. Plus, if we already know Aegislash is a threat to most team, we already think of a way to counter it, and the number is not small (again, depends on how you play the team). Again, my saying may not have any effect on anything but since the metagame is democratic, I will say this depends on the kind of metagame people like to play.

So, to ban or not to ban, I will have to lean on the NO BAN side for the time being. I look forward to the result and see what others think really, as I do find the metagame will be boring with the absence of Aegislash.

 

[Yayz]

As for my opinion on the Aegislash suspect, I'm not too sure myself. I'm leaning toward no ban, but at the same time, I'm curious to see what the metagame would be like if Aegislash were to be banned.

This is exactly how I feel. I don't know if Aegislash warrants a ban, but given how common it is (the real definition of Overused), it would be interesting to see what his removal would bring about.
Note that that isn't a good enough reason to ban though. "oh it'd be interesting" no. bad reason.

-good arguments-

and this is why I'm conflicted. Aegislash is both ban-worthy and not ban-worthy, and I honestly think that this suspect could go either way.

 

[aVocado]

The argument I dont like seeing is..."well its hard to switch into mega mawile" or "well thundurus has a lot of sets". Who cares about those pokes? We arent talking about them, this isnt a compare aegislash to other S rank mons thread, it is to discuss if aegislash should be ubers. This conversation should exclude comparisons to other mons that may get suspect tested in the future(unless we are talking about them as viable checks or counters to aegislash obviously). If your best argument for not banning aegilsash is that mawile is also hard to switch in on, then you dont have an argument at all.

What should we compare Aegislash to, if we can't compare it to anything at all then? It's a legit argument that you can't ignore, really.

 

[Red Cat]

This is kind of a philosophical post about the XY OU meta as a whole. With each generation shift, Game Freak adds new threats and changes mechanics to make some mons more OU viable and some mons less viable in OU. In DPP, the physical special attack split and SR shook up OU. In BW, hidden abilities, especially Drizzle for Politoed and Drought for Ninetales, turned everything upside down. In XY, we got some changes to the type chart including the addition of the Fairy type, but that is not the main reason OU looks some different from OU in BW. The big reason is simply the huge power creep which has resulted from many of the mega evolutions and Pokemon like Aegislash. Aegislash has only lasted this long because GF has added some other extremely powerful mons like the Mega Zards, Mega TTar, Mega Pinsir, Mega Gyarados, and 97.5 Base Power Knock Off Bisharp which can go toe to toe with Aegislash. Smogon has also released former Ubers like Excadrill and Landorus-I which can check Aegislash. Anything with 150 / 150 offenses would have been quickly banned in any prior generation, but with beasts like Mega Zard-X and Mega Mawile running around, 150 / 150 offenses almost seem tame this generation.

Basically, what I am trying to get at is that Aegislash checks many of the new powerful threats this generation and many of the new powerful threats check Aegi. If you think everything checks each other well enough that XY OU is balanced in its current state, then there is no need to ban Aegislash. If you think Aegi and the other new powerful threats combine to create and over-centralized meta where very few old Pokemon can thrive, then Aegislash must be banned and anything else which dominates after it is gone must be banned. There isn't an inherent problem with a longer banlist this gen IMO because there has been an unprecedented amount of power creep this generation, but some players may want to keep the power creep as a defining feature of XY OU like people wanted to keep weather as a defining feature of BW OU.

I personally would like to see Aegislash banned because most of this power creep has been offensive, so I think we need to keep chipping away at the most powerful threats until the offensive Pokemon are about as powerful as they were last generation so we can have a more balanced meta.

Edit: The Deoxys thread was kinda tame for once, this thread has blown up and become cancer like some of the previous suspect threads. Hope some people read this b4 it gets buried.

 

[-gizmo-]

What should we compare Aegislash to, if we can't compare it to anything at all then? It's a legit argument that you can't ignore, really.

It's best to take into account that you can't compare it to anything, why is that? Nothing else does what aegi does. You can take that as a good thing or a bad thing, that's up to you.

 

[Arkrusicks]

Another Smogon suspect test.

Another thread of people posting "ban this pokemon, over centralisation is bad!" or gems like

I think with Aegislash banned, we can finally see a lot more Mega Pokemon in the Metagame

as if that is at all relevant to the apogee of the OU metagame that we increase the viability of your favourite Pokemon.


Not to mention a few more of my personal favourite, "ban this pokemon, its Base State Total is really high."

Frankly I don't play Pokemon much, but if the approach of the groupthink to these banlist discussions is like that, then I'm thankful you're not voting, but it's sad to see a forum get to this stage.

My 2 cents

-If you're banning something, you're banning it to improve the quality of competitive games played between two high level players. Obviously this is tacitly acknowledge by the voting system, but far too many AceStar's don't seem to grasp that this is the fundamental job of the system. Pokemon shouldn't be banned to make the bottom 20% of player in OU happy.

-Nothing is sacred.

The goal should be to create fair and skillful games between competitive players.

That's it.

Anything else is of secondary concern. The point here is to create a good metagame. Even if that metagame narrows the viability of the pokemon that can be used to single digit numbers, if it's still a fair competition between those players, where skill and choices with your technical play determine the outcome, you've succeeded. Which leads to the real kicker...

Centralisation doesn't matter as long as the format's good. The only argument against centralisation at the top of the OU metagame should be as a supporting point where "this aspect of centralisation affects the quality of competitive play." It shouldn't be used to make points like "ban Aegislash every1 uses same pokemon nowadays so boring XD"

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Linking that to Aegislash, you're merely asking yourself one question with this. Is removing Aegislash going to improve the quality of competitive play or not?

Sure it's the best/most used/shiniest Pokemon and whatnot, but when you're playing at the highest level, does Aegislash make the game unfair or unskillful.

It seems like if you get right down to it, the major arguments against Aegislash that aren't completely frivolous are. And this is from a guy who doesn't even play Pokemon.

1) Aegislash exacerbates team advantage with the range of sets it can play. Because Aegis has multiple sets that can be used for it, and because it's such a powerful Pokemon, it's near impossible to create a team that covers for all its sets and still be able to function in the metagame. As part of that is the scenario where if you switch in unscouted with a Pokemon that counters one set, Aegis can potentially hit you with one of the other sets, and score a win simply because the opponent wasn't provided with the information to make the correct decision.

Being randomly paired with a team that has the advantage over yours is a fundamental fact of life, you can't avoid it, but if the moves you choose decide a game before you've even sent in your lead, that's absolutely a bad thing overall. The question is, does it really come up a lot, and impact t

2) Aegislash creates terrible decision trees with yomi. Meaning that Aegislash overly emphasises the yomi aspect of Pokemon and lets games be almost entirely decided by a small handful of the 50/50s. In a healthy game of Pokemon between strong players, you will absolutely make 50/50 decisions, it's unavoidable, but you should be able to lose a few of the 50/50s and not lose then and there. The ideal way to be able to play is to take a lot of small 50/50 decisions, and have them not matter too much, such that even tho your flamethrower missed on a 10% chance, you can play out of the bad spot it has put you in.

Arguably though, losing a 50/50 vs Aegis is just too much of a downside, and leads to the match snowballing out of control because your opponent only predicted a single switch. Pokemon games definitely need to be drawn out by making a lot of those small 50/50 decisions, more decision making is better, and if Aegislash is shortening games down to a very small amount of the "30% chance he attacks, 10% chance he uses a utility move, what's the best thing I can do to counter this" decisions that characterise pokemon, then yea consider a ban.

But you're going to have to look at the state of peak level OU games when you think about that, and who knows if removing Aegis will even help that problem?

Key word being arguably, but honestly it could easily be right. If the problem of losing a ton of games to a handful of 50/50 splits at the current peak of the OU metagame can be laid squarely at Aegis' door, and removing him will reduce the occurrence of 50/50 splits, then a ban can be considered. But will removing him make it better?

Will removing Aegis make the games last longer, lead to more decision making, and a fairer and more skillful competitive scene?


I honestly don't know, I haven't even played this gen. Aegislash being banned could easily improve the state of the OU metagame, I haven't a clue. I'm just sick of the substandard posts in this thread.

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tl;dr

Most of the arguments here boil down to this.

0) Aegislash is a very good pokemon, here's a list of reasons why.

Ok.

So what?

Being a good pokemon isn't a crime. Being a Pokemon that increases the unfairness (more variance, less skillful decision making) in the metagame is a crime. So give me reasons why that's true here.

Believe it or not, you can have Pokemon with 100% usage, a base stat total of 1500, 4x immunity to everything, and still have a fair and skillful metagame. Give actual reasons why this Pokemon is unfair.

 

[CactusCacti]

If you're saying a 50/50 involves skill, then please stop posting because you obviously don't understand what skill is. A 50/50 is literally pure guesswork, not indicative of skill whatsoever. Excessive 50/50s as created by Aegislash lead to the meta we have now which is dominated by such guesswork. This is not 'mind games' this is 'mindless garbage'.

Please. Aegislash has way more sets than that, what will you expect when you see aegislash use sub, will it toxic? will it stat up?
Aegislash attacks once, was it just a filler move, was it a hint its infact offensive all together?

Garchomp sends out rocks at start of match, retreats, comes back next time to outspeed something it shouldn't outspeed, was this luck based because you expected it to be lead rather than scarf?

Was it luck because a set you thought the mon would have was not the set you thought it'd be?

Think about that.

I think it's a big problem in OU that people want to standartize what all mons use and don't use. More options, more guess work gives fruit for more options
I mean fuck, in competitive sense mind game is a big chunk. You don't go fucking head on and on in comptitive FPS, they use routes and play mind games on predicting did the other guy take the route they think they did or did they just look like they took the route and but instead came after you through the other route.

Match up not running to your expectitions being same as luck is just mind buzzling me to.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

What should we compare Aegislash to, if we can't compare it to anything at all then? It's a legit argument that you can't ignore, really.

Hmm, maybe I could have worded it better. An argument for aegilsash staying in OU just because mawile is just as dangerous(he is not), doesnt make any sense. That just means that mawile(hypothetically) would be the next suspect. We need to focus on aegi and how he acts, its pretty irrelevant if there is another pokemon that needs to be suspected next. I just want the arguments to be based off aegislash and not on a quality that other pokemon may possess. Because Aegislash isnt being suspected for 1 thing, it is the accumulation of traits that make him over powered. So while mawile may not have many switchins(if any), it doesnt have the bulk or versatility or kings shield, that aegislash brings, so an argument saying "mawile has no switchins so why ban aegi for that reason?" isnt a complete one because that is not why hes up for suspect.

 

[aguywhobattles]

I have an idea on how to test pokemon, make another mode on showdown which is the suspected tier, but without the suspect pokemon, move, or ability.similar to when there was a stealth rock free metagame option in gen 5. The players who would normally vote would see how it not being allowed affects the metagame, and so can the average competitive player. You can also test the new metagame before enoforcing it so something like when genesect was allowed in ou before being banned shortly after because it was more broken than expected.

 

[MissAzusa]

This suspect test is rather surprising. I mean, I can think of plenty of other better candidates right off the top of my head.

Anyway, I don't think Aegislash should be banned, because it's quite slow and has plenty of checks - none of which are obscure in the slightest. Bisharp, both Mega Charizards, Dragonite, Excadrill, Heatran, both Landorus formes, and Tyranitar just to name a few.

King's Shield isn't a mindless spammable move like people are saying it is. Status goes through King's Shield, and Earthquake isn't a contact move. If the person using Aegislash predicts incorrectly with King's Shield they could risk a setup sweeper doing serious damage to their team.

Aegislash's versatility is countered by its popularity and 4 move slot syndrome. All of its most used sets are prepared for by all of the checks I mentioned above, and it doesn't have much it can do outside of that. The very fact that the OU metagame is pretty much shaped around is a huge flaw in and of itself.

Just my two cents. I'll be trying to ladder and vote against banning it.

 

[BenTheDemon]

I personally think Aegislash is NOT broken in the slightest. It may be because all my team members don't really have trouble with it (look in my Sig), but that was merely a coincidence. Only Mandibuzz was made with Aegislash in mind (and Char X). Though it is versatile, it's far from perfect. It doesn't have the movepool to be a dedicated wall/support Pokemon, while it's too slow to be a full sweeper (Shadow Sneak is still a weak attack). It also has plenty of perfect checks and counters including Mandibuzz, Charizard (both X and Y), Bisharp, and Heatran.
It's also rather easy to fuck with due to King Shield's mechanics, especially with Special Attackers. And Shadow Sneak leaves it very vulnerable to any moderately strong attack.

So my conclusion is no ban. (BTW, are all S-Ranks getting Suspected?)

 

[Eik00c]

Note that that isn't a good enough reason to ban though. "oh it'd be interesting" no. bad reason.

Yes, I see your point there. Atm, I can't think of a good reason to ban, or if there is even a reason to ban. Then again, I'm tired af, so I can't come up with any good reason.

Aegislash is not good enough for ubers and has a rightful place in OU.

I think this is about how Aegislash is unhealthy in OU, not how it's doing Ubers.

 

[Gradeus]

Alrighty, I'm not your typical forum user, but this suspect test is something big that I feel I need to address.

A little bit about me for qualification (seeing as I have no previous forum posts), I've been playing the usual formats of Gen 6 for a while now (OU, UU, RU, NU) and having decent success. Since the Elo system switch a little while back, I haven't put in the raw amount of games played to show my skill level (I love you Glicko). I'll give a simple tl;dr and state that I don't find it difficult at all to take down the usual ~1800 players. I'm more of a teambuilder, which might show in my post.

Aegislash is a Pokemon that I recognized in the very beginning of X/Y as something special. It's unique, with its typing and ability being able to introduce a new style of play into the game. I've used it on many of my teams, as I found it fit my battle style well (teams usually fit into the balanced category), through many of the meta changes. Many of the arguments being used against Aegislash by the pro-ban supporters involve pseudo-720 BST, 50-50s, versatility, and overcentralization. I agree with the vast majority of -Clone-'s post, if I could like it more than once I would. However, I may provide a slightly different viewpoint.

The almighty 150/150 offenses and defenses make Aegislash appear to be an unstoppable Pokemon, seeing as it can change its form so easily. The methods of doing so are also one of its greatest weaknesses. I'll delve into the 50-50s later, which I don't find to be as much of an issue as some others (from whom I'm getting the feeling that they're bitter/salty about personal experiences with them). Its 150 base stats are offset by the low base powers of the moves it has at its disposal, and solid walls can still tank its attacks. Aegi is pretty slow, but not the slowest, as mentioned by many. This means that, most of the time, Aegi can freely make the decision to tank whatever is thrown at it, then strike in the aftermath. I'll talk about the exceptions now: slower Pokemon that can take a hit are able to avoid Aegislash's defenses should it choose to attack, which leaves a dead Aegislash in the majority of circumstances. Anyways, once Aegi is in Blade Form, the user's options are rather limited: attack and risk getting KO'd, or retreat behind a King's Shield (maybe even a switch). The latter option is generally the one used, as it's usually the safer play. This leads into those 50-50s.

I never really thought of the 50-50s as being unhealthy to Pokemon before reading this thread. I haven't changed my mind, mainly due to how I view them. One of the "50-50s" I see (technically) is using King's Shield repeatedly, which is usually a decision made from desperation or inexperience. The main one that people mention is in the specific case that your opponent wants to use a physical contact attack, or if Aegislash is in Blade Form in general. First of all, people don't just run non-contact attacks specifically for Aegislash, there's a wide variety of Pokemon that Earthquake or Fire Blast is useful for, Aegi happens to be one of them. The Aegi user has the options of: King's Shield, attack (usually Shadow Ball), or switch. The other player can attack, predict a switch/KS by using another move, or switch.

[VIP: Very Important Paragraph]
From here is how people's viewpoints on 50-50s differ. I enjoy the mindgames that this brings, I don't see it as being luck-based as some people have claimed it is. The 50-50 situation is not luck. Luck is inherent only in multiple King's Shield uses, or % chances on moves, Confusion, Paralysis, etc, which get relegated to Hax. Luck is when the random number generator is used. Two players picking two moves based on what they think their opponent will do is not luck. Aegislash's effectiveness depends on its user's capability to next-level your opponent. This capability isn't just restricted to Aegislash, there are predictions in every part of competitive battling, why is this any different? I fail to see how predictions are a negative influence, as predictions are a form of next-leveling your opponent. This aspect of X/Y actually made it more fun for me, especially in the Aegi mirror, of which I've won nearly 90% of the time when both players stayed in 'til a KO (I started keeping track after it became fairly common). The consequences may not appear be what everyone is used to, though tempo loss/changes in expected damage dealt/immune moves etc. have all already been experienced by players in one of almost limitless scenarios.

Aegislash is very versatile due to it being able to run a wide variety of viable sets, the most relevant of which are the standard Mix Slash (which is apparently being called Crusher?), Sub Toxic, and Lure (which, to be honest, I haven't seen much coming from that one). The vast majority of sets run the standard King's Shield / Shadow Ball / Shadow Sneak / Sacred Sword. That's the one most people expect, though if you look and see a stall or even balanced team you can prepare for the possibility of Sub Toxic. Lure can be sensed in some extremes when the team has a first-glance weakness to something that Lure deals with. Obviously you can't be totally sure what it's running until you actually determine it mid-battle, but careful examination of the opposing team can help reduce the magnitude of the impact a surprise set brings. It's definitely nowhere near as bad as the Mega-Lucario situation in which incorrectly guessing the set can cost you the entire game. It may cripple or KO one Pokemon, but other Pokemon can be made to do the same. Zoroark's Illusion is another aspect of the game that I have fun with, an example guessing game was with Zoroark and Toxicroak (as potential Psychic bait) before Croak was given the bump, one with Nasty Plot, the other with Swords Dance.

Aegislash's versatility is impressive, but I don't see it as game-breaking. If a team can't deal with any given Pokemon using two or less of its members, I consider it something the team needs to fix, not a testament of the Pokemon's power (to a point). Bringing the wrong Aegislash check doesn't mean that you lose then and there. If no one can build a team that doesn't get screwed by a certain Pokemon without seriously compromising the rest of its composition, then the Pokemon itself is indeed too strong. Mega Kang and Mega Gengar were two such examples that could rip apart teams with ease. I'm definitely not stating that Aegislash is on the same level as those two, but I don't feel that it as a Pokemon in the metagame requires teams to be created with specific ways to deal with that one Pokemon in mind. Most of the methods used to deal with Aegislash are also there to deal with other Pokemon. Favoring non-contact moves is the only thing I can think of that is exclusive to handling Aegislash. Earthquake is a commonly used coverage move on a wide variety of Pokemon, as is Fire Blast, etc. Sucker Punch is still a thing, and Bisharp is good for reasons besides checking Aegislash.

Do I feel that Aegislash centralizes the metagame? It definitely contributes to it, as one of the main pieces in it. Then again, so do other top-tier Pokemon. I guess my arguments against an Aegislash ban are based on the premise that there are definitely other Pokemon that must also be paid attention to when building a team. Fire Blast coverage also helps with Ferrothorn and Scizor. Earthquake coverage can help with Heatran, Tyranitar, and non-Air Ballooned Excadrill. Prepare for it like you would prepare for any other threat. You don't need to prepare for all of its sets, it can only use one, and then your other specialized checks won't matter. It's harder to be Aegislash weak than it is Thundy-I weak, Lando-I weak, Zard-X weak, [Sweeper] weak, etc. due to the nature of how Aegislash is used. Hopefully people won't get 6-0'd by Sub-Toxic due to their team structure and mispredicting a set, that'd be a bit embarrassing.

Though I agree that Aegislash is strong, I don't think it's unhealthy for the metagame and deserves to stay. It provided something fluid, something new, when it appeared in the X/Y scene. It's the essential OU Pokemon, and doesn't deserve to get the boot. If it did, the metagame would drastically change. Do people want this? That's a question that can't be explained by the actual game. I personally am on the side that the metagame would be more unhealthy in the aftermath, with strong sweepers waiting in the wings that would run too rampant. This is why I'm against the banning of Aegislash from the OU metagame. Please, if you decide to respond to me, leave feedback with solid reasoning. I acknowledge and warmly accept all forms of logical opposition and am willing to discuss it with you. A bit lengthy and political for my first post on Smogon but I hope it makes a difference.

 

[CTC]

If the reasoning for aegi being broke is that it's the most centralizing mon,,, take a look at thund's tour usage. If the reason is that its effective stats r too high,,,, holla at ma wiles 260 and landos 230 effective stats,,,, my boi is no gene, which was seen on every team and was truly able to capitalize on the actually abusable surprise factor of mixed capabilities (guessing btwn rp set vs band turn 1). Fuck eve zards support the argument better "I can't switch any mon into a Zard for sure cuz it can be x or y",,, as for aegi it hasn't rlly established a niche as a mixed heavy hitter seeing as its physical coverage is by no means impossible to switch into, actually it's pretty fuckin weak. This is the most competitively designed pokemon in game freak history and albeit being annoyingly hard to kill and moderately difficult to switch into, it holds much of the ou meta game together. Think about just 1 mon in the case of ninja, the deos ban already took out one of its liek 4 checks, and now if aegi is gone its switchins would be down to like 3 or so. Wev got many others like lati etc (Latis combine for nearly 50% usage in tour play, u rlly wanna see them go up to 80?) who are checked by aegi, and since aegi has cemented itself so firmly inside the ou ecosystem that its ban will completely shift and distort the checks and balances of xy resulting in possibly more centralizing roles (the aforementioned thund, ninja, lati etc). I don't even get why the deos got banned,,, neither their usage nor prowess warranted a ban but I guess mothafuckas is ignorant.
Don't ban aegi,,, free deos,,, unless u want another bw ou meta minus weather (yes a meta even less diverse than bw ou) nice,,,,

Edit: if u put some thought into it it's never that hard to build around it,,, Iv never rlly had problems w aegi but then again The Lord never has problems w anything,,,, anyways jus cuz ur heracross hawlucha team can't beat aegi doesn't mean u gotta ban it,,, this is xy ou not kokoloko uu

More edits: oh tour scrubs cryin bout how this shit makes the game uncompetitive due to 5050s? Well when u click the challenge button it's already a 5050 due to matchup and god forbid ur offensive team faces a sucker punch user,,, all these 5050s nice,,,, the game is aids atm and there's other way of goin about it,,, let's just keep it diverse at least otherwise fuck am I doin in xy ou lemme holla at rby lc 1v1

i think when it comes down to authority/experience, niggas r confusing tour players with "niggas who playd in a tour" ,,, think 4 ur selves,,,
tldr IM ALL FOR a kshield ban aka nerfing the no skill 5050 aspect. SUPPORT THE NERF FREE AEGI FREE DEO

- lord

 

[Halcyon.]

Linking that to Aegislash, you're merely asking yourself one question with this. Is removing Aegislash going to improve the quality of competitive play or not?

Considering you're not a tour player and several actual tour players have posted saying that Aegislash is, in fact, broken and does make high level games less skillful, I'm more inclined to agree with them over someone who admits he doesn't even play Pokemon. I honestly could not care less that you think we shouldn't ban Pokemon.

 

[Clone]

The argument I dont like seeing is..."well its hard to switch into mega mawile" or "well thundurus has a lot of sets".Who cares about those pokes? We arent talking about them, this isnt a compare aegislash to other S rank mons thread, it is to discuss if aegislash should be ubers.

idk. maybe because comparisons are the best way to go. if you dont make comparisons you shouldnt be talking about anything in an argument at all. comparisons are one of the key foundations in any argument of any kind.

This conversation should exclude comparisons to other mons that may get suspect tested in the future(unless we are talking about them as viable checks or counters to aegislash obviously). If your best argument for not banning aegilsash is that mawile is also hard to switch in on, then you dont have an argument at all.

Its a perfectly legitimate argument for reasons stated above. A comparison to a top tier wallbreaker is a perfectly viable argument. idk why you would even post this :/

 

[Arkrusicks]

Considering you're not a tour player and several actual tour players have posted saying that Aegislash is, in fact, broken and does make high level games less skillful, I'm more inclined to agree with them over someone who admits he doesn't even play Pokemon. I honestly could not care less that you think we shouldn't ban Pokemon.

Another Smogon suspect test.

Will removing Aegis make the games last longer, lead to more decision making, and a fairer and more skillful competitive scene?

I honestly don't know, I haven't even played this gen. Aegislash being banned could easily improve the state of the OU metagame, I haven't a clue. I'm just sick of the substandard posts in this thread.

I mean, reading my post would be nice, because I agree with you ;)

It's just that most of the arguments against it in this thread are terrible things being spouted by people who don't know how to even think about competitive games.

 

[camoflouge]

aegislash doesnt have 720 BST. whoever is arguing this is retarded, plain and simple. hes 520 with 200 that switches. run wisp, we forget kings shield can only block attacks and not status? BURN IT. PHASE IT WITH ROAR, OR HAZE. get creative. everything up until swagger was completely needed. the people who are calling for suspect tests clearly dont know how to play smart. this isnt gen 1 where we could EQ everything. im tired of hearing this, the upcoming suspects shows me the player base has gradually declined in intelligence. i will be following smogon rules up until swagger/baton pass. at this rate anything past that isnt a competitive rule, its all childish crying.

steel lost 2 resistances for a reason, do u think maybe this was it?

 

[Jobes]

Aegislash is such a unique pokémon, and this is the first suspect test this generation where I am not sure what the outcome will be.
Earthquake is usually cited as the best way to deal with Aegislash. Nearly every physical attacker is forced to run it, as without it, attacking Aegislash risks a massive stat drop. This can be remedied by, say, DDing, healing, etc.. The problem that arises here, of course, is that this leads to the much-discussed 50/50s that are so dreaded by many including myself. Aegislash getting the boot gets rid of half of the big 50/50 problem plaguing OU right now (the other half being the prevalence of Sucker Punch).
Aegislash also holds the ability to run sets that deal with all of its switch ins. This has been hashed over in detail, as have most arguments, but of course it includes Sub-Toxic primarily, as well as the lesser used Head Smash.
There are certainly ways to deal with Aegislash. On a few of my recent teams, I've been able to frequently taunt Aegislash. This allows for an easy Pursuit without worry of King's Shield, or simply bring something in that forces Aegislash out. This still fails to solve the problem. Forcing Aegi out is just prolonging its appearance in the match (which will be easy to fix, as Aegislash has easy switch-ins on a large portion of the metagame). In the case of Taunt+Pursuit, it works great but strikes me as an extreme measure. Even then, trying to switch in a Pursuit user is phenomenally dangerous, as the only common Pursuit users are hit 4x by Sacred Sword (Bisharp, Tyranitar, Weavile) or dented hard by Shadow Ball (who else but our friend Aegislash himself!).
This has been the first test this generation where I haven't been 100% certain, but I'm leaning pretty heavily towards a Ban.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

idk. maybe because comparisons are the best way to go. if you dont make comparisons you shouldnt be talking about anything in an argument at all. comparisons are one of the key foundations in any argument of any kind.


Its a perfectly legitimate argument for reasons stated above. A comparison to a top tier wallbreaker is a perfectly viable argument. idk why you would even post this :/

You are missing the whole point, I am assuming its because you dont want to listen and just want to be right....but Ill try and be even more clear.
If you assume other people are talking from personal hate or bias, that makes you yourself bias and less likely to take arguments seriously.

Anyway, if you want to compare aegi to other wallbreakers, lets play that game. What the hell does mawile-mega or garchomp mega switch into? Almost all mons can hit these guys for SE damage and kill them in the following turn because of their low speed. This means that the mawile and garchomp are almost exclusively limited to beating defensive teams, because they get outsped and OHKOd by most if not all offensive mons. When we look at aegislash(which is non mega btw) giving him space to run air balloon, he can switch in to sooo many attacks and then judging on his set, get a kill or do a clean 60% to something. He can pursuit trap, sub toxic, etc etc, he isnt limited to wall breaking and he frees up a spot on your team to run a mega. The other two you mentioned both only have 1-2 sets both of which serve the same role, they have no other utility besides wallbreaking. An argument could be made for mawile as being fantastic against offensive teams, with his unreliable sucker punch, but this thread isnt about mawile and thats why I dont see the value in bringing him up.

 

[jpw234]

My initial reaction was "hell no" but after thinking about it more I'm probably leaning towards a ban pending my experience on the suspect ladder.

I think the biggest issue with Aegislash is King's Shield, the 50/50 issue that a bunch of people have noted is simply an uncompetitive part of the meta that makes countering Aegi incredibly difficult. Avoiding that annoyance by limiting yourself to EQ/Fire Blast/etc. sharply narrows your acceptable pool of counters, and then the Aegi player can essentially pick which specific mons counter it based on the set and build the rest of their team to remove those threats.

Aegislash obviously has its issues and it isn't the perfect pokemon (and tbh there are several other suspects I would have liked to see first) but my current feeling is that the metagame would be better off without it, looking forward to how the suspect ladder plays though.

 

[ShizukaMikudou]

Everyone's worried that there isn't a wall for Aegislash and that's what makes it so terrifying, but why is walling it such a priority? For toxic stall teams, if you're so worried about Aegislash, run a pokemon with Taunt and actual offense. The metagame is not about making sure that every pokemon has a wall; it's about making sure that certain pokemon are not unstoppable to the point where 10/10 teams need a specific counter to it. That is what true overcentralizing is. Such as when every last human being had to have a Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn, Garchomp or Mandibuzz to deal with Mega Kangaskhan without being swept and having their team completely slaughtered without a chance. I have never had to build a team with Aegislash in mind. Ever. And I have never been swept by an Aegislash except in a Random Battle. Running EQ on a pokemon is rarely a bad choice at all. Special Super effective attacks like Flamethrower easily send Aegislash running for cover.

Aegislash simply does not have a pseudo BST of 720. It either has high attack or high defense, depending on form. 720 is a myth we create out of exaggeration of Aegislash's damage on our teams. King Shield, though being like the combination of a Protect+Charm, has tons of weaknesses, being that Taunt goes through it, Will-O-Wisp goes through it, ect. you know how it works. And as someone else said in this thread, though Aegislash's offensive stats are impressive, its most common and most viable attacks have low base power and do almost no more damage than a Timid Gengar's attacks.

Aegislash walls your psychic and fighting types? Well almost any Steel type already did that, and anyone running a Fighting type should beware of Ghost types. Aegislash poses no more of a threat to deal with than your average Steel or Ghost type. Too unpredictable? Isn't that supposed to be what makes competitive pokemon interesting and fun? That everyone has the freedom to come up with the next, most unpredictable thing, and yet all the same, eventually the new stuff becomes old and becomes the most predictable thing. When the Sixth Gen meta was new, the trend was for Aegislashes to King Shield first turn. Then the meta caught on, so Aegislashes began trying to King SHield next turn. And so on. 50/50s, as people have stated already, are a natural part of competitive battling. Will this player switch out, or not? Will he predict me to do this? At the beginning of a battle, you don't know that much about your opponent. The same exact chances are held for whether Aegislash will Attack, Defend, or Set Up. Battles should be about trying to read your opponent's thought process, and that is something that is relevant in games of all forms.

There should be less than 70% or so times in a battle when you find yourself unable to touch Aegislash. Dark type moves, Fire type moves, Taunt, Earthquake, are all common moves that should be on any team not just for Aegislash, but for every other pokemon in the meta. Aegislash should easily fit right into the list of pokemon you can easily deal with. If you run a full stall team and can't touch Aegislash, it's only your fault for having a team that can't do much of anything anyway except for Toxic Stall. No wonder some people treat Steel types like defensive gods; they can't Toxic Stall them. Well deal with it. As with any great story where lies a great, seemingly unstoppable force, there is always a weakness, and the wise protagonist will always find it and use it to win. Aegislash has plenty of weaknesses, and if you have a well balanced team that can deal with 85% of the other pokemon in the meta, you should have no problem dealing with Aegislash.

"But Aegislash has such an unpredictable moveset!!!" Ever heard of the most glorious status move in the entire game, Taunt? Taunt already was an amazing move to have on a pokemon. It shuts down Subbed up pokemon trying to set up. It shuts down any pokemon trying to set up. It shuts down any pokemon trying to do anything but actually have the courage to attack you face to face! It shuts down those creative, "unpredictable" Aegislash sets too. But Aegislash is far from the most unpredictable pokemon in the game. Shadow Ball, Iron Head, Shadow Sneak, Sacred Sword, King Shield, Swords Dance, Substitute. The pokemon that some like to claim has little variety, Charizard, has more variety than that. XD

And like with Metagross and Mega Mawile which causes them to be extremely vulnerable and risky to use, Aegislash has poor speed, allowing it to easily be Earthquaked and Flamethrowered to death before it ever gets to see the light of day. And its base 40 power Shadow Sneak won't be helping it much.

All the things you need to instantly put Aegislash in its place easy mode are the same things you use to defeat other pokemon as well. Aegislash hardly centralizes the meta one bit. Afraid to put a fire user on your team? Then have fun getting stalled to death by Ferrothorns and Skarmories and slaughtered by Scizors and Mawiles.

Pokemon don't need a "counter" that completely walls them. They need weaknesses that don't over centralize the game in order to be met. Creative ways that require actual thinking, not just switching out to a stall wall Pokemon and calling it a day. If every Pokemon had to have a counter, everyone would just have teams full of stallwalls. Blissey/Chansey, Gliscor, Skarmory, Mandibuzz, Heatran, and Ferrothorn. That appears to be the kind of meta that some high ladder Smogon players want to live in. Well not everyone uses a Toxic Stall team. Some of us use Garchomps, Charizards, Greninjas and Talonflames because we like actual Pokemon battles where we actually fight them ourselves.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

My initial reaction was "hell no" but after thinking about it more I'm probably leaning towards a ban pending my experience on the suspect ladder.

I think the biggest issue with Aegislash is King's Shield, the 50/50 issue that a bunch of people have noted is simply an uncompetitive part of the meta that makes countering Aegi incredibly difficult. Avoiding that annoyance by limiting yourself to EQ/Fire Blast/etc. sharply narrows your acceptable pool of counters, and then the Aegi player can essentially pick which specific mons counter it based on the set and build the rest of their team to remove those threats.

Aegislash obviously has its issues and it isn't the perfect pokemon (and tbh there are several other suspects I would have liked to see first) but my current feeling is that the metagame would be better off without it, looking forward to how the suspect ladder plays though.

Could you explain to me the big problem of King's Shield? A large percentage of the time, you're gonna just use EQ and the best KS can do for them is buy them another turn. Yes, there are plenty of instances where you have to evaluate whether it's worth the risk to go for a flare blitz or take significant damage from shadow ball, but Jukain's post about that being luck based was completely off kilter. Being able to read an opponent and predict there actions is a skill every Aegislash user needs, and that's something I thought this meta game wanted to promote.