np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[zachmac]

I like building teams. In fact, I just revamped one old team and made a completely new one within the past week. And whenever I build a team, there are two pokemon who always seem to be a pain in the rear for me to handle.

One of them is a pokemon I shall not name, as I'm not supposed to make comparisons(but will be suspected, and I will call for it's ban).
The other is Aegislash.

Yes, there are a lot of viable pokemon who check Aegislash. Yet somehow, I never find them sitting on my team until the end, where I'm forced to squeeze in something to handle it. Maybe it's that I just don't like dealing with Mandibuzz's stealth rock weakness. Maybe it's because I'm just so using to sticking to my guns, and always like using pokemon I've had experience using before.

But maybe Aegislash is a brute who one check alone isn't always enough to handle. That old team I rebooted? Yeah, I've got a Heatran. STAB fire always helps, right? But for some reason, even when paired with my Mega Venusuar, that's not adequate. I also needed to have a Hydreigon, or else Aegislash would just cause too much damage to my team.

Okay, so Heatran is just one example. It can't represent all of Aegislash's checks, right? Right? Well, the problem isn't checking Aegislash. The problem is checking Aegislash without it punching holes in your team first. It's one thing to be a check, and something else entirely to be a reliable check. Bisharp is reliable, since it can trap it with Pursuit and Knock Off. Mandibuzz is pretty reliable to, it's not scared of much outside of the unusual Head Smash or Toxic. But what other checks do we have that are truly reliable? Garchomp? Landorus? Charizard? None of them like Shadow Ball, which is Aegislash's go-to attack. They can come in once, but they won't like having to do it again. Only one type resist ghost. And when you've got a ghost attack coming from a 150 base special attack, that's a problem. And when you realize that the Shadow Ball user has 150 defense/special defense and superb defensive typing, it turns from a problem to a mess.

Okay, "earthquake spammers", as we've been calling them, can work well in offensive teams. But in more defensive teams? It's just not fair to have to keep swapping into that thing without something more reliable.

TL;DR: Aegislash has checks, but most of them are flawed enough that it hinders the team building of defensive teams.

Do I feel like Aegislash needs to be banned? Probably. Though unlike Mega Kanga, I will admit actually have my doubts this time.

 

[Katakiri]

Well in the 6+ hours this thread's been up, I feel like the majority of what I would say about Aegislash has been said multiple times. In summary: it's far too bulky for how great its typing is, King's Shield is a mess of 50/50 predictions that can completely shut-down counters and is far too safe for what it does, and it's hard to counter in the first place with its overwhelming power and STAB priority.

My one big difference from most others on this matter is that I think we should just ban the move King's Shield first and see if that shifts the metagame in a direction that we collectively like. I mean I'm not 100% on this (it's a thought) so if there's a problem with it, point it out but I think it's a definite option for a few reasons. King's Shield is a disgustingly safe move for what it does (move scouting, placing a pseudo-burn on physical attackers [most notably would-be-counters], and gaining Lefties recovery for free) and is the one reason Aegislash isn't complete Pursuit-bait with its low speed. When it can't gain its Base 150 defenses back for free, Aegislash's low speed actually becomes a curse rather than a blessing, allowing for Pokemon like Mega Venusaur, Tyranitar, Dragonite, Mega Heracross, and *insert Assault Vest Pokemon here* to switch-in and stomp Aegislash properly with just about any STAB or Super Effective coverage move. Banning King's Shield would also give Aegislash a pretty bad weakness to the move Substitute which forces Aegislash to expose itself. And of course there's no more 50-50 prediction garbage without King's Shield.

I think Aegislash's presence in OU is healthy as it keep huge threats like Mega Gardevoir and Latios in check and its presence alone is the sole reason Mega Pinsir opts to use Earthquake instead of the other-wise superior Close Combat for coverage and I feel that losing King's Shield is enough to make Aegislash entirely manageable but still good enough to still keep the Pokemon it checks at bay. All that said, if King's Shield never goes on the table, I would opt to ban Aegislash but at present I think King's Shield would be the way to go. I say at present because I don't know how good its Autotomize set is so that could possibly sway me but I have used all other common variants fairly extensively and I don't think any of them would be too OP without King's Shield.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Have people just forgotten that this "luck based" 50/50 situation completely applies to anybody who uses Aegislash just as much as it does to you? Say you're up against up against a Ttar. Do you scout with a KS? But then he could get SR up or worse MEvo and DD. Do you go straight for the sacred sword? Oops, you just took 75% from Crunch (which is more than enough considering how slow the sword is and how he is only good because he can take a hit before switching forms). The stakes are absurdly high for both players, and the one that reads the opponent better will win. Sure there are better, more favorable match ups, but every poke has its share of those, and Slash has its share of bad ones.

If it's broken, it'll be because its different sets make the bad match ups unreliable, but like I've said before, we won't know that until the test. Don't waste our time going in with preconceived notions.

 

[Wizarus]

So when Aegi runs one of it's other sets to deal with a "common threat" (questionable due to most of his counter's usage), it's called "Versatility". Toted as one of the reasons you'd have him banned. However, when a mon runs EQ to deal with Aegislash, it's called "Sub-optimal"? Don't get me wrong: EQ on just about any physical mon is just as good if not better than Head Smash aegi, providing more relevant attack options vs threats like ZardX and heatran outside of aegi (as opposed to just really targeting Zadpos/mandi).

Why the double standards? Earlier you preached how the multiple attacking options were "versatility" and added to his ban laundry list. Sub-optimal movesets on aegi really are anything that isn't subtoxic or standard crumbler. If your team needs to deal with something else, I guess you use a suboptimal moveset. HOWEVER, this is no different from you looking at a team and saying "Hmm, I'll deal with aegi better to add EQ/SuckerPunch/Fire coverage here."

Earthquake is one of the easiest moves to play around and take advantage of in the game. It's decent, but unless you get stab on it, Earthquake has been pretty sub-optimal since 5th gen.

And that's the problem I have with Aegislash. Risky Ground attacks and Fire Blast are fine, but safer moves like Crunch, Flare Blitz, Pursuit, Knock Off, and even Fire Punch are a no-no unless you like -2s? It gets even worse when choice locked pokemon are using those moves.

 

[AdultIcarus]

Have people just forgotten that this "luck based" 50/50 situation completely applies to anybody who uses Aegislash just as much as it does to you? Say you're up against up against a Ttar. Do you scout with a KS? But then he could get SR up or worse MEvo and DD. Do you go straight for the sacred sword? Oops, you just took 75% from Crunch (which is more than enough considering how slow the sword is and how he is only good because he can take a hit before switching forms). The stakes are absurdly high for both players, and the one that reads the opponent better will win. Sure there are better, more favorable match ups, but every poke has its share of those, and Slash has its share of bad ones.

If it's broken, it'll be because its different sets make the bad match ups unreliable, but like I've said before, we won't know that until the test. Don't waste our time going in with preconceived notions.

And this is the difficulty with the Aegislash ban. The easiest thing to do in the game for strategically crafted teams is to toy with the component. Let's take another matchup:
Vs. Xard
No one would keep Aegislash in on Xard, or mostly any fire-type, but under the assumption someone does. Would you KS first? Nope, DD. How about attacking first? Dragon Dance until you mess up. Slash is a poke who needs, needs the user to predict the next movement. A wrong move against Mega... anything, will wreck it.

 

[Clone]

ill bite. lets break this down.

You are missing the whole point, I am assuming its because you dont want to listen and just want to be right....but Ill try and be even more clear.
If you assume other people are talking from personal hate or bias, that makes you yourself bias and less likely to take arguments seriously.

I dont see how Im biased at all. Ive specifically stated in my posts that Im neutral - tho leaning towards no ban on this subject, shown here and here. Go ahead and read them. Seems to me that they are taken seriously and have been mentioned in other peoples posts.

Anyway, if you want to compare aegi to other wallbreakers, lets play that game. What the hell does mawile-mega or garchomp mega switch into?

ok. Lets play. Mawile: Dark types. Bug moves. mother fucking dragons. Scizor (yeah, including mega). And other things I cba to mention cuz i forgot since i lasted used him in the suspect test for the Deos. Garchomp: Rock moves. resisted moves in general. anything stall throws at it bar Ice Beam Slowbro. Volt Switch (rotom dies to draco and is outsped) and others. Both have good bulk and great typing. also resist stealth rock. and its moreso of them getting in safely thru volturn and double switches than anything else. the real question is what switches into them safely?

Almost all mons can hit these guys for SE damage and kill them in the following turn because of their low speed.

lolwut. since when does azumarill carry a SE move vs. Mawile? Or rotom vs. Garchomp (burns hurt but theyre not entirely crippling btw)? Scizor for garchomp? greninja for mawile (HP Fire i guess?) Lati@s for mawile? common threats right there. I wont even mention stall.

This means that the mawile and garchomp are almost exclusively limited to beating defensive teams, because they get outsped and OHKOd by most if not all offensive mons.

-1 252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 198-234 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 232-280 (64.9 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

yeah. ok. Mamo loses to Draco since hes outsped which requires a reliance on ice shard. yes lando beats Mawile but the calcs is simply there to show how well they take SE hits while still being somewhat able to take them on.

When we look at aegislash(which is non mega btw) giving him space to run air balloon, he can switch in to sooo many attacks and then judging on his set, get a kill or do a clean 60% to something.

air balloon is average at best and removes his only form of recovery in leftovers. yeah it still spinblocks exca but thats not as big of a deal anymore now that the deos are gone. ill give u the switching into stuff tho. never denied that.

He can pursuit trap, sub toxic, etc etc, he isnt limited to wall breaking and he frees up a spot on your team to run a mega.

yes. he can. and he can do only one. no im not pulling the 4MSS syndrome cuz that already been covered. but aegis isnt the only thing that has multiple sets that determine his counters. out of the two i mentioned, mawile is a prime example.

The other two you mentioned both only have 1-2 sets both of which serve the same role, they have no other utility besides wallbreaking. An argument could be made for mawile as being fantastic against offensive teams, with his unreliable sucker punch, but this thread isnt about mawile and thats why I dont see the value in bringing him up.

Mawile has SD, SubPunch, and within SD are a multitude of moves to choose from. Wanna get rid of scizor? Fire fang. wanna beat venusaur? iron head. want team utility? Knock off. Megachomp only needs one set to do his job. Mawile can sweep. and the 50-50s of Sucker Punch are in the favor of the sucker punch user.

Dont forget that these are just examples. there are still others. Lando is a great wallbreaker, as is Keldeo. neither take up a mega slot. Thundy has like 3 different sets he can run which are all viable. versatile and effective. TTar is in the same boat as thundy.

the more i think about it the less inclined i am to sway my opinion to the pro ban side. Aegis's checks are all viable outside of just doing that, and the 50-50s can easily be avoided with coverage moves that most attackers run. versatility is an issue, but youre only lying to yourself if you say hes the only versatile mon in the tier.

 

[CactusCacti]

I'm gona also drop one more thing:

When people say and argue of the luck of the "match up" remember;
The final call comes from the players

If you fuck up your call, the fuck up is yours

If you are up against something you don't know about, tread lightly. Do not be reckless.
If you are unsure of what to do, play safe, take the safest route.

If you fuck up you only got yourself to blame. This should be common sense.

 

[mertyville]

People do know that even though Will-o-Wisp goes through King's Shield and your mon isn't affected by the drop when non-contact moves are used aka Earthquake or Flamethrower, your main goal will switch the form of Aegislash to guarantie to take a hit next turn to ensure your next attack being a clean KO, right?

King's Shield isn't only there to protect Aegi but to change its form without needing to switch out all the time.
There are so many ways to play with Aegislash it feels like people are discovering more and more viable sets. I remember when all people used to run SD + KS + Shadow Sneak + Sacred Sword and that was suppost to be the "best" set...and when everyone started to go for WoW, Aegislash's Set has completely changed and people started to prepare themselves for that or rather the Meta.

That reminds me when I watched somebody used Taunt with Mandibuzz against an Aegislash just to find out that it was All-Out Attacking set with Head Smash (I don't remember if it was choiced) and losing his defogger. It sounds crazy and maybe it is a shitty gimmick but when it works, why not?

 

[McLopez]

Aegislash is a great threat for some Pokémon lol
But so does Talonflame. This bitch can senda back to hell things like Breloom, Heracross (no matter if it's mega or not), Medicham, Scizor and the list can continue.

And it really does a lote of damage in Smogon Doubles.
Arceus, this things simply break the balance of the metagame lol

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

People do know that even though Will-o-Wisp goes through King's Shield and your mon isn't affected by the drop when non-contact moves are used aka Earthquake or Flamethrower, your main goal will switch the form of Aegislash to guarantie to take a hit next turn to ensure your next attack being a clean KO, right?

King's Shield isn't only there to protect Aegi but to change its form without needing to switch out all the time.
There are so many ways to play with Aegislash it feels like people are discovering more and more viable sets. I remember when all people used to run SD + KS + Shadow Sneak + Sacred Sword and that was suppost to be the "best" set...and when everyone started to go for WoW, Aegislash's Set has completely changed and people started to prepare themselves for that or rather the Meta.

That reminds me when I watched somebody used Taunt with Mandibuzz against an Aegislash just to find out that it was All-Out Attacking set with Head Smash (I don't remember if it was choiced) and losing his defogger. It sounds crazy and maybe it is a shitty gimmick but when it works, why not?

Thanks, I was operating under the assumption Slash was already in D mode, but that's another element. If Slash is in attack mode, the trainer behind it would have to really be confident to not cower behind a shield. And when KS is used, you'd have to be really stupid or really desperate to try again, so free attack! Thanks, you reminded me; in prediction fights, Aegislash often has a disadvantage. Really, KS is a terrible reason to want to ban him.

Aegislash is a great threat for some Pokémon lol
But so does Talonflame. This bitch can senda back to hell things like Breloom, Heracross (no matter if it's mega or not), Medicham, Scizor and the list can continue.

And it really does a lote of damage in Smogon Doubles.
Arceus, this things simply break the balance of the metagame lol

Calling this test "simple" means you haven't put enough thought into it.

 

[Areos]

Earthquake is one of the easiest moves to play around and take advantage of in the game. It's decent, but unless you get stab on it, Earthquake has been pretty sub-optimal since 5th gen.

And that's the problem I have with Aegislash. Risky Ground attacks and Fire Blast are fine, but safer moves like Crunch, Flare Blitz, Pursuit, Knock Off, and even Fire Punch are a no-no unless you like -2s? It gets even worse when choice locked pokemon are using those moves.

There are plenty of less risky moves that can land a 2HKO or possibly a 1HKO on Aegislash, such as Flamethrower, Dark Pulse, Shadow Ball, Earth Power, Thousand Arrows in the future meta game. (Who knows when that ability will be released, though...) Hell, the threat of the ever-common Scald, even though resisted, will drive out most Aegislash who fear the burn.

Why has there been such little discussion about non-attacking moves that bypass King's Shield? Will-O-Wisp isn't going to reduce a Shadow Ball's damage, but it's going to completely neuter your Physical attacking moves, which makes you harmless versus any specially-defensive Pokemon like Chansey or Tyranitar, who would normally fear the prospect of a super effective Sacred Sword. Setting up a Swords Dance or Dragon Dance has already been mentioned, but what about Substitute? A recovery move? A Sleep Powder or Spore? Switch to a Pokemon who threatens to knock out or cripple Aegislash? Really anything else that can help the opposing Pokemon build momentum for himself or his team at the expense of a wasted turn for the Aegislash.

King's Shield is a double-edged sword (pun absolutely intended) that can bite back against the user just as often as it can the opponent. It's hardly the 50/50 game-changer that some people are making it out to be.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

There are plenty of less risky moves that can land a 2HKO or possibly a 1HKO on Aegislash, such as Flamethrower, Dark Pulse, Shadow Ball, Earth Power, Thousand Arrows in the future meta game. (Who knows when that ability will be released, though...) Hell, the threat of the ever-common Scald, even though resisted, will drive out most Aegislash who fear the burn.

Why has there been such little discussion about non-attacking moves that bypass King's Shield? Will-O-Wisp isn't going to reduce a Shadow Ball's damage, but it's going to completely neuter your Physical attacking moves, which makes you harmless versus any specially-defensive Pokemon like Chansey or Tyranitar, who would normally fear the prospect of a super effective Sacred Sword. Setting up a Swords Dance or Dragon Dance has already been mentioned, but what about Substitute? A recovery move? A Sleep Powder or Spore? Switch to a Pokemon who threatens to knock out or cripple Aegislash? Really anything else that can help the opposing Pokemon build momentum for himself or his team at the expense of a wasted turn for the Aegislash.

King's Shield is a double-edged sword that can bite back against the user just as often as it can the opponent. It's hardly the 50/50 game-changer that some people are making it out to be.

Just as a minor complaint, possible future meta game characteristics don't really have a place here. There's a reason talking about 1000 arrows, future suspect tests, or even Mega Swampert presumably being a pretty good check doesn't happen. If the meta changes enough, we can always test it again and potentially bring it back in.

 

[Xeltil]

I recently started to use aegislash and even though he has very high defenses he can be easily beaten. If it meets another ghost type he can be easily killed. 1 Earthquake will kill it and If not the second one surely will. Mine just got killed by a sucker punch easily. A fully EV trained aegislash on defense and special def including the IVs who was easily killed by scizor and his bullet punch with just one swords dance stack. It's not impossible to beat, It's rather slow and easy to kill in 2 turns. People who think It's a beast haven't clearly tried hard enough to kill it.
Edit: Burn it with willow wisp If you think He's tough, next turn get whoever has a high attack and it will faint

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

A lot of arguments Ive seen are biased by personal hatred for the sword.

assuming arguments are biased because of hate is your opinion and leaves you thinking less of their arguments.

ok. Lets play. Mawile: Dark types. Bug moves. mother fucking dragons. Scizor (yeah, including mega). And other things I cba to mention cuz i forgot since i lasted used him in the suspect test for the Deos. Garchomp: Rock moves. resisted moves in general.

Dark types in OU: Bisharp 2hkos mawile... greninja is hardly considered a dark type but yes greninja commonly carries hp fire, and regardless it ohkos mawile pre mega with hydro pump, so it cant switch in. Bug moves?!?! wtf who in ou uses a bug move.... ok garchomp uses outrage you switch in, he eqs, dead mawile... I could go on, these pokemon dont even have a fraction of the longevity aegislash has.

-1 252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 198-234 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I dont even know what this calc is, this is assumin a 1v1 against mawile and lando? lando wins and what mawile runs 252 hp?

252 Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 232-280 (64.9 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Soo what mamo set is this? sash mamo? if so he can freely use icicle spear and kill, otherwise he would have LO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 302-364 (84.3 - 101.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
theres a relevant calc

I am going to stop because this doesnt feel productive for anybody, both of us picking apart each others post talking about pokemon that arent aegi... I think how silly this looks between the both of us proves we should keep the conversation about aegi and not talk about other pokemon...this is an aegislash thread not a wallbreaker/S rank mon thread.

 

[Drawler]

Have people just forgotten that this "luck based" 50/50 situation completely applies to anybody who uses Aegislash just as much as it does to you? Say you're up against up against a Ttar. Do you scout with a KS? But then he could get SR up or worse MEvo and DD. Do you go straight for the sacred sword? Oops, you just took 75% from Crunch (which is more than enough considering how slow the sword is and how he is only good because he can take a hit before switching forms). The stakes are absurdly high for both players, and the one that reads the opponent better will win. Sure there are better, more favorable match ups, but every poke has its share of those, and Slash has its share of bad ones.

If it's broken, it'll be because its different sets make the bad match ups unreliable, but like I've said before, we won't know that until the test. Don't waste our time going in with preconceived notions.

So basically, its a even 50/50 for both players as long as Aegislash is paired up against an unscouted physical attacker with an extremely powerful SE STAB and boosting moves.

I'm not a prolific OU player, so by all means take what I say with a grain of salt but it seems kinda lame needing all of your physical attackers to carry EQ or SE STAB + boosting move (and outspeed and not get mauled by Sneak) to get by in the Aegislash meta.

 

[Flamebot]

any team with Earthquake can kill it, no. Not true. Some Aegislashs carry Air balloon. I`m getting sick of people saying just spam EQ. Not to mention almost every team(I would say literaly everone) has a flying type. Swagger was banned for creating 50 50s, not saying Aegislash is swagger but still.
He is also extremly powerful' switching into him is hard. Attacking him with a physical attack can be hard unless you like taken shadowball or sacred sword to the face. I will post more later, as im not sure if airballoon is used past 1800 tho i cant see why not.

 

[Areos]

Just as a minor complaint, possible future meta game characteristics don't really have a place here. There's a reason talking about 1000 arrows, future suspect tests, or even Mega Swampert presumably being a pretty good check doesn't happen. If the meta changes enough, we can always test it again and potentially bring it back in.

Understandable, it's merely a random thought that comes to mind whenever I hear people discuss Earthquake being unreliable in some manner or another.

Again though, Flamethrower, Dark Pulse, Shadow Ball and Earth Power are all very strong attacks that will make any Aegislash fear for its life, and they're carried by very viable Pokemon like Charizard-Y, Clefable, Gengar, Heatran (Lava Plume instead), Kyurem-Black, Togekiss, Zapdos (Heat Wave), Raikou, Nidoking, Hydreigon...

 

[Xeltil]

assuming arguments are biased because of hate is your opinion and leaves you thinking less of their arguments.



Dark types in OU: Bisharp 2hkos mawile... greninja is hardly considered a dark type but yes greninja commonly carries hp fire, and regardless it ohkos mawile pre mega with hydro pump, so it cant switch in. Bug moves?!?! wtf who in ou uses a bug move.... ok garchomp uses outrage you switch in, he eqs, dead mawile... I could go on, these pokemon dont even have a fraction of the longevity aegislash has.



I dont even know what this calc is, this is assumin a 1v1 against mawile and lando? lando wins and what mawile runs 252 hp?


Soo what mamo set is this? sash mamo? if so he can freely use icicle spear and kill, otherwise he would have LO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 302-364 (84.3 - 101.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
theres a relevant calc

I am going to stop because this doesnt feel productive for anybody, both of us picking apart each others post talking about pokemon that arent aegi... I think how silly this looks between the both of us proves we should keep the conversation about aegi and not talk about other pokemon...this is an aegislash thread not a wallbreaker/S rank mon thread.

Mega mawile just OHKO my aegislash with sucker punch... If aegislash gets banned for super strength and defense so must this guy

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

assuming arguments are biased because of hate is your opinion and leaves you thinking less of their arguments.



Dark types in OU: Bisharp 2hkos mawile... greninja is hardly considered a dark type but yes greninja commonly carries hp fire, and regardless it ohkos mawile pre mega with hydro pump, so it cant switch in. Bug moves?!?! wtf who in ou uses a bug move.... ok garchomp uses outrage you switch in, he eqs, dead mawile... I could go on, these pokemon dont even have a fraction of the longevity aegislash has.



I dont even know what this calc is, this is assumin a 1v1 against mawile and lando? lando wins and what mawile runs 252 hp?


Soo what mamo set is this? sash mamo? if so he can freely use icicle spear and kill, otherwise he would have LO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 302-364 (84.3 - 101.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
theres a relevant calc

I am going to stop because this doesnt feel productive for anybody, both of us picking apart each others post talking about pokemon that arent aegi... I think how silly this looks between the both of us proves we should keep the conversation about aegi and not talk about other pokemon...this is an aegislash thread not a wallbreaker/S rank mon thread.

One problem is that everyone has biases. The last test for instance, if you exclusively used HO, you probably saw a lot of the examples where Deo-D failed to do it's job, and your limited exposure, as well as your unconscious appreciation for all the times it did do it's job might've led you to vote anti-ban. We're at the stage where people haven't come to recognize their biases, so a decent number of people will approve or disapprove of a ban for less than good reasons. Luckily, as the last test showed, most people overcome biases during the course of a suspect test and make the right decision, I, and probably Clone as well, just dislike waiting.

So basically, its a even 50/50 for both players as long as Aegislash is paired up against an unscouted physical attacker with an extremely powerful SE STAB and boosting moves.

I'm not a prolific OU player, so by all means take what I say with a grain of salt but it seems kinda lame needing all of your physical attackers to carry EQ or SE STAB + boosting move (and outspeed and not get mauled by Sneak) to get by in the Aegislash meta.

Good and bad match ups are part of the game for pokemon. Aegislash has an undeniably reasonable number of checks and revenge killers that threaten it, and it can only escape them through skillful prediction of the player. Not too different from regular pokemon predicting switch ins and which move revenge killers will use so they can switch in their check.

 

[Areos]

So basically, its a even 50/50 for both players as long as Aegislash is paired up against an unscouted physical attacker with an extremely powerful SE STAB and boosting moves.

I'm not a prolific OU player, so by all means take what I say with a grain of salt but it seems kinda lame needing all of your physical attackers to carry EQ or SE STAB + boosting move (and outspeed and not get mauled by Sneak) to get by in the Aegislash meta.

Are they carrying these moves exclusively for Aegislash, or are they carrying it because they're strong coverage moves? You'll be hard-pressed to find anybody who would argue against the effective coverage that Fire-, Ground-, Ghost- or Dark-type moves offer to pretty much any offensive Pokemon, coverage moves that would still be very popular whether Aegislash ever existed or not. Sure, some Pokemon do indeed carry specific moves for the sword and board, such as Mega-Pinsir carrying Earthquake, but the same is said for many other defensive walls in the game. Charizard-X may carry Earthquake specifically for Heatran, Mega-Garchomp carries Fire Blast specifically for Skarmory and Ferrothorn, and so on. Why is Aegislash any different?

Some Physical sweepers, most notably Azumarill, don't carry anything specifically for Aegislash yet are still considered extreme offensive threats in the meta game.

 

[Zebstrika]

I'm bringing back a suggestion from a few pages back, which I think some people disagreed with but it wasn't officially shot down (sorry if it was).

Ban King's Shield. Or at least make it an option.

First, a lot of people here have said that King's Shield forces 50/50s. It does. Imagine a situation I was in a couple days ago, a Weavile with Swords Dance and Knock Off, vs Blade Aegislash with Sacred Sword and King's Shield. This is literally the perfect example of an unhealthy 50/50, and it's far from the only scenario. If they both attack or both don't, Weavile wins, and if one attacks, Aegislash wins. It's that simple. If you like this kind of thing, go play professional rock paper scissors. I know it's pokemon, we all know Aegislash isn't the only cause of this. This is a replay of my Starmie beating a Sucker Punch Bisharp for the win (go to turn 40, because I know this thread is moving fast) that I did not deserve. Really, these 50/50s mostly aren't uncompetitive enough to justify a ban on their own, but Aegislash combines it with the power to punish pokemon that can't guess it (fuck the word predict, and many other people here have explained why in this case it doesn't take skill to play around KS), and I think most of us agree that an Aegislash played with perfect King's Shield prediction is super borked. It can shrug off any hit at -2, and nothing besides dedicated tanks/walls will be able to shrug off one of its attacks. King's Shield also happens to screw over choice attackers, who also happen to be the only things that can OHKO Aegislash, outside of ~5 others.

We also know that an Aegislash without King's Shield is a lot easier to handle. It basically just got 2 more weaknesses, since no one was using physical fire or dark attacks on it (bar Bisharp) without having to worry about King's Shield. It also can't sit there throwing out attacks all day, because permanent blade form makes it basically like Rampardos. Eviolite Doublade can kinda take over some of the tank/defensive sets anyway. So there's no reason to ban Aegislash without King's Shield, and it's viable enough to still be the counter to Gardevoir, Medicham, Terrakion, and a bunch more dangerous pokemon people argue Aegislash keeps in check.

Now I know some people have argued against that last point, that we shouldn't keep a broken pokemon around just because it checks other broken pokemon. But isn't that a metagame? Imagine the slippery slope really happens, and every OU pokemon ends up banned. There is no OU any more, just Ubers, BL, and UU. We have a pretty big BL list right now, a list of pokemon too broken for the UU tier. But then someone wisens up, and says that we can unban a bunch of pokemon to get todays OU, yes there's a bunch of broken crap, but they all check each other. The pokemon in BL are not broken in today's OU, because a bunch of other stuff considered broken for UU is in OU to check them.

As for actually implementing the ban, it's not a complex ban. It's just banning a move, like we do to Swagger or Double Team. And it obviously has no collateral damage. People say that if a Pokemon is broken, that we should just go all the way and ban it, that Smogon doesn't nerf, but I think that's more because we don't want our banlist to be cluttered with, "Arceus without Extreme speed and no type plate, or Spooky Plate+ Recover+ will-o-wisp, or a shitton other things, you get the point". Look at any of the banned Megas. Mega Lucario was only broken when it's allowed to use its mega stone, so we ban the mega stone, effectively removing some of its sets to nerf and make Lucario manageable in OU, and it worked.

So with that in mind, I would like to see Ban King's Shield an option in this suspect test, because I know a few people in this thread would like some middle ground.

 

[Karxrida]

Like I said before, banning King's Shield is stupid because Aegislash is the only Mon that gets it (Smeargle doesn't count). If 3-4 mons got it in the future and they were all suspect worthy you'd have an arguement, but you don't so we shouldn't even bring it up.

 

[Zebstrika]

Like I said before, banning King's Shield is stupid because Aegislash is the only Mon that gets it (Smeargle doesn't count).

That's exactly the point. Lucario, Gengar, and Kangaskhan are the only pokemon that can make any use of their mega stones, and we ban those too. Smogon is fine with nerfs as long as theyre still simple bans.

 

[Anty]

That's exactly the point. Lucario, Gengar, and Kangaskhan are the only pokemon that can make any use of their mega stones, and we ban those too. Smogon is fine with nerfs as long as theyre still simple bans.

Banning kings shield is stupid as that's not what makes it over powered. Kings shield can be correctly predicted, then used for your own advantage, eg you can set up, or use a status (status goes through it).
The banning of the mega stones were because the mega was brocken, the move 'kings shield' definately isnt, it has a chance to lower your attack if you hit with a contact move, which only affects physical attckers, which leaves you vulnerable to set up or status. I know it lets it switch forms, but i dont think banning it makes sense.

Also, what i dislike about this, it can lead to stupid people saying stupid things like 'allow xerneas but it cannot use geomancy or a STAB move'.

 

[GloriousGore]

I am by no means that much of a good player, but I guess I can call myself an experienced player in utilizing Aegislash, and my opinion would be:
Ban.
The thing is, it's versatile af, it has a BST of 720, nothing likes switching into it without taking a ton of damage or getting fucked up in general, its speed is actually an advantage for it because it has a tendency to tank some shit then return double the damage. And have I mentioned how this thing holds a lot of should-be-viable mons which isn't even funny .-. KS is the most annoying move in existence IMO. It forces almost all physical attackers to run EQ, which may prove to be redundant or sub-optimal just so those physical attackers get past aegi. It's LO set is a monster too, and its Subtoxic grants it an ability to get past normal checks and counters like mandi and hippo, HIPPO and MANDI are nowhere near counters when they switch in on this thing and eat up an LO Flash Cannon and take something like 60%. And the fact that teams that use aegi are almost always guaranteed to take the upper hand most of the time because on how massive this thing is a threat, and it's so overcentralizing .-.
Srsly I use a rain team and I'm forced to run obscure shit just to alleviate aegi woes, and it's as if the teambuilder will prompt you something like this:
'Stupid team. Why you aint got a bish/ fire blast/ eq in there to beat aegi.' Only a few stuff can counter it, and aegi has enough tools to even best them most of the time.
Unless your team is full of random knock off users, aegi will almost always be productive in a match, just a question give me a damn match where this thing didn't do work. It's almost guaranteed to dent a lot of stuff when played well, and even though it isn't Aegi will almost always dent stuff.
And pls, ban this thing so some other pokes can be viable, I'm sick with this thing raping everything if not totes a whole team.
Ban.