Do you even play stall? SD Mega Heracross is only reliably countered by Defensive Gliscor, who can only toxic it while being 2HKOd. Mega Gardevoir is only countered by Mega scizor, which means you can't use Charizard X or Venusaur. Even stall with offensive presence still loses unless the other player sucks, because they have to sack something every time it comes in. The point isn't that all good stall teams need Aegislash, its that without Aegislash these stallbreakers will become better and a lot more popular, so stall will become a lot worse.
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np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition
- Thread starter gr8astard
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Garchomp was banned in BW and then unbanned later, so it's not unprecedented.
Might as well throw in my 2 cents as well,
Aegislash is hands down one of the most, if not the most, threatening pokemon to ever enter the OU metagame. Blessed with amazing typing, fantastic stats and a decent move pool Aegislash is without a doubt, a force to be reckoned with. But does all this make Aegislash ban worthy? I don't think so. Aegislash's great typing allows it to switch in and tank multiple hits. But Aegislash is weak to some of the most common types in today's metagame (Ground, Fire, Dark, Ghost). So yes Aegislash can tank hits but to a certain extent. Secondly, it's pseudo 720 BST aren't something that should be overlooked. Indeed it is quite high but if we're going to ban off base stat totals, why not throw KyuB and Mega Tar up for a test as well?Lastly, Aegislash's decent move pool allow it to perform several different roles well. So just because this pokemon is versatile warrants it a ban? Smogon rules try to make singles as skill based as possible by removing luck factors and the overpowered monsters that terrorize the meta game. I believe that a skilled player should have general idea of what kind of Aegislash your opponent is running and work your way around it.
People also want to ban Aegislash because it limits the potential of other pokemon from doing well, but one pokemon should not stop another from still being viable. If you truly want to run a pokemon which Aegislash walls, bring a check. Lando I as well as Bisharp generally do a good job of checking most Aegislash. For me, when I see an Aegislash on the opposing team I don't quiver like I did with BP.
I understand why the OU council has decided to suspect this thing and where the people who want to ban it are coming from but, I strongly believe that Aegislash is **not ban worthy**. #savethesword
Aegislash is hands down one of the most, if not the most, threatening pokemon to ever enter the OU metagame. Blessed with amazing typing, fantastic stats and a decent move pool Aegislash is without a doubt, a force to be reckoned with. But does all this make Aegislash ban worthy? I don't think so. Aegislash's great typing allows it to switch in and tank multiple hits. But Aegislash is weak to some of the most common types in today's metagame (Ground, Fire, Dark, Ghost). So yes Aegislash can tank hits but to a certain extent. Secondly, it's pseudo 720 BST aren't something that should be overlooked. Indeed it is quite high but if we're going to ban off base stat totals, why not throw KyuB and Mega Tar up for a test as well?Lastly, Aegislash's decent move pool allow it to perform several different roles well. So just because this pokemon is versatile warrants it a ban? Smogon rules try to make singles as skill based as possible by removing luck factors and the overpowered monsters that terrorize the meta game. I believe that a skilled player should have general idea of what kind of Aegislash your opponent is running and work your way around it.
People also want to ban Aegislash because it limits the potential of other pokemon from doing well, but one pokemon should not stop another from still being viable. If you truly want to run a pokemon which Aegislash walls, bring a check. Lando I as well as Bisharp generally do a good job of checking most Aegislash. For me, when I see an Aegislash on the opposing team I don't quiver like I did with BP.
I understand why the OU council has decided to suspect this thing and where the people who want to ban it are coming from but, I strongly believe that Aegislash is **not ban worthy**. #savethesword
I said "almost never seen in competitive play", which means on tournaments and stuff. Sorry if this wasn't clear.
Gardevoir has seven uses in WCoP and Medicham has four; Gardevoir actually has the same number of uses as Pinsir. Both also have respectable win rates (sample size is really low but w/e,) and both also saw similar usage rates in Tours. They're not common but to say they're "almost never seen" is inaccurate.
I feel like I should offer some thoughts on this, considering I will try laddering (don't know if I'll get reqs yet because everyone's gxe seems to be so low, but anyway).
CTC's point was a good one, in that whilst the 50/50s caused by Aegislash aren't exactly a piss in the ocean, it certainly isn't the only pokemon doing this atm.
Ideally, everyone would stop going on about its "720 BST". This is true only the first turn that it is out, where it takes a hit with 150/150 defences, and then deals out a hit with 150/150 offences. If you use KS too liberally, you risk giving your opponent free turns to set up or switch out, and if you don't, you risk being OHKO'd very easily. In that scenario, the risk is actually roughly equal to the reward.
Now, I know somebody to quote this post, and say that the above isn't true, that Aegislash does put the opponent at a disadvantage just by being out, because you have no clue what set it is running. Typically, I'd switch something like a Mandibuzz in on Aegislash, and it generally works, but obviously, this isn't always true, I am well aware of the lack of safe switch-ins, let me get on to that later.
Honestly, I feel like the best argument for Aegislash's ban is the 50/50s that it causes, and don't get me wrong, I am well aware that this isn't a clear-cut case of ban or do not ban. Charizard is probably the next best example of forcing 50/50s, and whilst many of Aegislash's counters for each of its sets (of which it has many, I am well aware) tend to be somewhat similar, such as Mandibuzz winning against all sets bar hasty flash cannon and sub toxic, Charizard's counters are totally different depending on which form it is. However, the list goes on, pokemon such as Landorus, Defiant Thundurus with Knock Off, and Keldeo (depending on which coverage move it is running) all have different switch ins depending on what specific set they are running. Hell, there are even pokemon such as Mawile, which barely has any safe switch ins at all. This is not a slippery slope argument, I am aware that making one would be stupid. What I am saying is that if we were to ban Aegislash because it forces excessive guesswork, then it would be inconsistent if we didn't ban other pokemon that did exactly the same thing, and the list of pokemon that do that is really long.
I absolutely understand that some people want to be ban-happy, and that for many, the list of cancerous pokemon that need to be banned isn't nearly over, but this suspect test is the time to decide whether you want to try to eliminate pokemon that force too many 50/50s from the game, which isn't something I, and many others agree with, because after that the lack of variety in OU would get even worse, and it is already pretty bad.
CTC's point was a good one, in that whilst the 50/50s caused by Aegislash aren't exactly a piss in the ocean, it certainly isn't the only pokemon doing this atm.
Ideally, everyone would stop going on about its "720 BST". This is true only the first turn that it is out, where it takes a hit with 150/150 defences, and then deals out a hit with 150/150 offences. If you use KS too liberally, you risk giving your opponent free turns to set up or switch out, and if you don't, you risk being OHKO'd very easily. In that scenario, the risk is actually roughly equal to the reward.
Now, I know somebody to quote this post, and say that the above isn't true, that Aegislash does put the opponent at a disadvantage just by being out, because you have no clue what set it is running. Typically, I'd switch something like a Mandibuzz in on Aegislash, and it generally works, but obviously, this isn't always true, I am well aware of the lack of safe switch-ins, let me get on to that later.
Honestly, I feel like the best argument for Aegislash's ban is the 50/50s that it causes, and don't get me wrong, I am well aware that this isn't a clear-cut case of ban or do not ban. Charizard is probably the next best example of forcing 50/50s, and whilst many of Aegislash's counters for each of its sets (of which it has many, I am well aware) tend to be somewhat similar, such as Mandibuzz winning against all sets bar hasty flash cannon and sub toxic, Charizard's counters are totally different depending on which form it is. However, the list goes on, pokemon such as Landorus, Defiant Thundurus with Knock Off, and Keldeo (depending on which coverage move it is running) all have different switch ins depending on what specific set they are running. Hell, there are even pokemon such as Mawile, which barely has any safe switch ins at all. This is not a slippery slope argument, I am aware that making one would be stupid. What I am saying is that if we were to ban Aegislash because it forces excessive guesswork, then it would be inconsistent if we didn't ban other pokemon that did exactly the same thing, and the list of pokemon that do that is really long.
I absolutely understand that some people want to be ban-happy, and that for many, the list of cancerous pokemon that need to be banned isn't nearly over, but this suspect test is the time to decide whether you want to try to eliminate pokemon that force too many 50/50s from the game, which isn't something I, and many others agree with, because after that the lack of variety in OU would get even worse, and it is already pretty bad.
I don't know the man personally, but he's actually reached the top 10 of the OU ladder with relative ease, he seems like a really good player. To jump in and say that he doesn't even meet the requirements of being knowledgeable of the meta is a STUPID statement.
You need to chill, the fact that some people's opinion's differ from yours is no reason for you to think less and talk down on them like that.
Still on the fence, but after some horrible experiences laddering losing a lot of matches to some stupid stuff, I have opted to quit laddering for this. My opinion on Slash is still on the fence, but I think with how many things will start becoming viable due to its departure, Slash leaving may be a good thing. However, I don't know what's best for the meta yet. Good luck to everyone because I'm not having ANY of it. ;-;
EQ on Mega TTar is not suboptimal. It allows you to beat:
- Opposing TTar
- Terrakion
- Weakened Keldeo
- Azumarill if you are running Crunch instead of Stone Edge
- Bisharp
- Excadrill if you are running Stone Edge instead of Crunch
- Pretty much anything if you are running Stone Edge and don't want to risk the miss chance.
I could make similar cases for the other pokemon you mentioned. EQ is just that versatile.
Been playing on the suspect ladder (if you see me I'm probably the guy giving you free elo and coil cause I'm tilting on and off all day lol) and just wanted to post some thoughts. I haven't seen anything new or game changing with Aegislash gone. Of course that's subjective depending on who you are I guess but anyways. People now are either using the same old or just taking advantage of the ease of not running certain moves and/or just running more M-Cham, M-Gard, M-Pinsir the usual things Aegi checked. For the most part it seems like a very offensive meta game without Aegislash so can't really call that balance. As far as "50/50s" go that hasn't changed either. Yeah that might've been the case maybe 1v1 vs Aegislash but even with Aegislash gone I feel some people are overhyping the burden that it brought onto the meta. So yeah I'm still on the no ban side seeing as I've been able to get a more practical sense and will try to continue to do so for requisites. I guess at this point it's really what you want out of a meta game more so than what's best for it. That last thing I mentioned is always debatable so I guess we'll see how it goes.
Oh yeah and basically what Dallasboi said. Way too much nonsense that doesn't even make sense on normal ladder so it's also pretty hard to say if Aegislash leaving is actually good for the tier.
Oh yeah and basically what Dallasboi said. Way too much nonsense that doesn't even make sense on normal ladder so it's also pretty hard to say if Aegislash leaving is actually good for the tier.
I completely disagree with aegislash being banned. Now i'm not crazy and i'm well aware that aegislash is a formidable Pokemon with amazing defensive and offensive capabilities but instead of just banning the Pokemon to ubers i think the players should get more creative and honestly better themselves. If you are constantly being swept by aegislash then there is either something wrong with your team or the way you have been playing because while it is a powerful pokemon it cant take down a team single handily unless the team has an overwhelming weakness to the Pokemon which is the teambuilders fault not aegislash. Also there are plenty of counters/checks out there for aegislash(mandibuzz, bisharp, tyranitar, and the most overlooked one imo chesnaught). Its up to the players to get better and more creative themselves when a new challenge comes up. To be honest I think people just want aegislash to be banned due to all the 50/50 scenarios it creates but hell that just makes the game more exciting and requires a higher level of prediction skill from the player. Aegislash i hope people make the right decision and you stay in the OU meta game but things don't look to good haha.
I don't think the problem here is whether or not you're getting swept by it, but rather the fact that Aegislash checks, stops, or counters so many Pokemon, while also fitting easily on any team, and having the ability to hurt everything, or stall effectively. Not so much that he's sweeping people left and right.
lol
Prove what?
That I'll tear you to shreds? Ok, here we go:
You spent the first 30 seconds establishing that you're biased and everything you say has to be taken into context.
"Aegislash is simply unlike anything [you've] ever seen." What kind of lame reason to ban something is that? A pokemon evolving in battle for new typing and better stats has never been seen before, but nobody's stupid enough to try to ban that.
You said that "effective BST of 720" line, and that is a huge red flag to me that the person hasn't read a single page of this thread, and hasn't put a lot of critical thought into this. It has that for 1 turn, after, it has a BST of 520, with amazing power but terrible speed, so to avoid getting outsped by almost the entire tier and taking huge damage, it has to either use a low base power priority move, or it has to give its opponent a chance to boost up, heal up, or inflict some status on it. Best case scenario in a lot of cases is to stall out that turn by absorbing an attack. It's way too much to expect them to go for a contact move.
You said it had godly typing, but if this thread has done anything, it's shown how common and easy to fit on teams pokes that can check this mon are. Despite that sky-high SpA, he gives plenty of switch in opportunities for pokes that want to switch in and spam EQ or flamethrower or any other effective non-contact move.
You mentioned it having Deoxys-N offenses, but without that speed and relying on comparatively low base power moves like sacred sword for coverage, it's offenses are easily more comparable to standard offensive pokemon, but they all either have speed capable of abusing them without relying on a highly abusable move like KS, or consistent defenses that don't leave you completely vulnerable if you fail to KO.
You made a big deal out of it making certain pokemon less viable, and a lot of people have pretended this is a damning argument, but it'll be true of any top threat! Keldeo is a lot less viable than it was last gen largely because of Venusaur. Heracross got a mega, but can't be used much as long as Talonflame exists. In past gens, dozens of pokemon were made irrelavent by stealth rocks, and we didn't ban that. If other pokemon potentially being broken doesn't work as a reason to keep it, then other pokemon being made more viable isn't a reason to get rid of it.
Your claim that things run coverage moves like EQ just for it has been the topic of much debate, and if you had paid ANY attention to this thread, you wouldn't have posted such a callous statement about it without going into your justification for it immediately after. Basically, a lot of pokes carry coverage for it, yes, but not just for it at all. Most pokes that carry EQ coverage also need to deal with Heatran. Most that run fire coverage also want to hit Ferrothorn. Most that run dark coverage do it because dark moves are SO good right now (knock off and sucker punch?). And you explained that ghost is a great attacking type, so if you can, why wouldn't you run it?
You said "I don't understand" a lot. You clearly don't. If you really are a good player on showdown, good for you, but quit trying to make arguments if you're clearly not willing to read or listen to opposition. I've said it before, it's on the pro-ban side to "prove it", all I have to do is show how you're biased or incorrect, and you are clearly both.
This isn't a clear cut suspect test. I don't mind people disagreeing with me if they explain their reasoning. Heck, I might even vote for a ban (seems unlikely after my suspect testing experience, but that might just be because I really dislike simulators with their lag and weird aesthetics), but I'll state my observations as I see them and amend them as I'm proven incorrect, how about others do the same, or at least be honest about how you're voting for your own personal reasons.
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I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
ok so thoughts during laddering:
I am LOVING how the meta is without Aegislash. It has very quick games, very little stall, and very happy me. If the meta was like this the entire time, I would be so fucking happy. In my opinion, an offensive meta is a good meta, and the only stall that exists has to use some sort of offense to be viable at all. I love the lack of stall. It just fills me with fucking rainbows. It opens up a lot of options for mons, like CC for pinsir and et cetera, but the real kicker that pushes me over the edge is the fact team building isn't so restrained anymore. I don't have to worry about Aegislash, what set it is, and if i brought the proper check. I can focus on the other big threats, such as Zard X and Lando. Teambuilding isn't such an arduous process anymore. It feels like a padlock has been lifted off the meta; there is creativity, diversity, and most importantly, quick games. Even with stall breakers, stall was a pain in the ass to fight. I am glad it is nearly as viable as it was in BW. TY based gr8astard, for granting me at least 2 weeks of the most orgasmic laddering experience of my life.
I am LOVING how the meta is without Aegislash. It has very quick games, very little stall, and very happy me. If the meta was like this the entire time, I would be so fucking happy. In my opinion, an offensive meta is a good meta, and the only stall that exists has to use some sort of offense to be viable at all. I love the lack of stall. It just fills me with fucking rainbows. It opens up a lot of options for mons, like CC for pinsir and et cetera, but the real kicker that pushes me over the edge is the fact team building isn't so restrained anymore. I don't have to worry about Aegislash, what set it is, and if i brought the proper check. I can focus on the other big threats, such as Zard X and Lando. Teambuilding isn't such an arduous process anymore. It feels like a padlock has been lifted off the meta; there is creativity, diversity, and most importantly, quick games. Even with stall breakers, stall was a pain in the ass to fight. I am glad it is nearly as viable as it was in BW. TY based gr8astard, for granting me at least 2 weeks of the most orgasmic laddering experience of my life.
I agree with the fact that Aegislash shouldn't go to Ubers Kairyu but calm the hell down. I don't really see why you're getting pissed at him at all the people you've argued, he's actually not being a huge dick at all. It really hurts your credibility and I don't want to even look at your argument because it's so filled with anger.
I don't now what you about, at least where I am (above the 1200), there is A LOT of stall. Amoongus is everywhere, even though it's not needed to counter Aegis. Skarmory is everywhere, specially since Mandibuzz is way less common. Pure stall teams with Skarmblissvenutramquagsire are gone, but there are a lot of semi-stall teams that are still a pain in the ass to face.
I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
Semi-stall isn't full stall. No ridiculously long games. CC pinsir should tear those teams apart, am i not correct?
The problem with this idea is that it's a bias against a certain play style simply because you're not fond of it. This will lead more people who don't like stall that have a more difficult time decision making come to conclusion that banning Aegislash would make stall less viable, simply because they would have this mutual hatred. This would just distort the idea of why Aegislash is actually being suspected. Yeah sure more diversity, but like others mentioned diversity isn't always a good thing.
I'm glad you stated you are biased towards offense, but I wouldn't view a metagame that makes a very core playstyle almost unviable to be remotely balanced or fun, especially when it limits balance as well, making offense the only way to play. I love my offense, but the game wouldn't be competitive or even fun to play consistently if there is little variety in playstyles.
No because a neutral CC (120 BP) is only a bit more damage than a resisted Aerialate Return (~99 BP.) Pinsir is not going to be stomping through those teams, there's multiple checks and counters that can beat Pinsir with CC (including many of the things that could C/C Pinsir with Earthquake.)
This type of thing seems to happen with every new meta (and let's face it, Aegislash was such a great representative of an entire style, removing it did make a new meta). We all remember how long it took for pokes like Chansey to get the recognition they deserve. 2 weeks isn't long enough to really judge a meta imo, so we'd have to make judgements about threats and trends that we don't really get to observe. Most of them are obvious, like psychics becoming much more viable, and Staraptor now lacking its biggest counter, but I don't think we can possibly guess how things like the offensive/defensive bias of the entire meta will evolve.
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I am of the opinion that no playstyle is sacred, nor it needs to be eliminated. The meta itself should decide what playstyles will be allowed to survive. Banning things to limit what each kind of player can do is just an artificial way of balancing the game that makes it less competitive.
If banning Aegislash will make the meta more or less offensive, I don't care. What I care is if it's gonna make it more competitive, healthy and fun to play.
If banning Aegislash will make the meta more or less offensive, I don't care. What I care is if it's gonna make it more competitive, healthy and fun to play.
I Think Agislash (DERP) Definatley Need's to be banned to uber's because it has a great movepull/stats/and typing kings sheild is op and stops common checks like bisharp plus it is one of the best mixed attackers in the meta game up to date having 150 in both pysical and specail attack stats and it currently wreaks havoc in ou so i vote for the ban Note:I am NOT Trolling Flaming Or Perswaying Pepole Agislash is to good for ou I'm JUST Giving my personal opinion Thakyou
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With the Deoxys bros gone and less Dark/Ghost Priority, MegaZam has become a pretty nasty pokemon to deal with unless you are running Flying Spam. I didn't see a lot of MegaZams but people seem to focus on MegaCross and MegaVoir a little to much for my taste...at least below 1300 they are pretty easy to handle.
I have seen a pretty interesting MegaPinsir Set running Quick Attack, Return as only offensive moves and Stealth Rocks to put more offensive pressure and Swords Dance and I am considering to try it out myself. I see no reason to run CC since +2 Return does already break through so many things even resisted mons.
MegaZard X, Thundurus, Landorus and MegaMawile are still as threatening as ever...
I have seen a pretty interesting MegaPinsir Set running Quick Attack, Return as only offensive moves and Stealth Rocks to put more offensive pressure and Swords Dance and I am considering to try it out myself. I see no reason to run CC since +2 Return does already break through so many things even resisted mons.
MegaZard X, Thundurus, Landorus and MegaMawile are still as threatening as ever...
There are several reasons why the "banning Aegislash will make stall bad" argument is silly. The main one is that it's a false statement, lol. Banning Aegislash is something good for stall, not bad. Most stall teams are really weak to Aegislash, meanwhile only some of them actually run Aegislash. I just played a WCoP match with a stall team (Gliscor / Slowbro / Quagsire / Mega Venusaur / Chansey / Skarmory), and if my opponent's Aegislash had Sacred Sword I'm pretty sure I'd lose. On the other hand, if he had a Mega Medicham or a Mega Heracross, I'd still have Slowbro and Gliscor hard countering them, respectively. So no, banning Aegislash won't make stall any less viable. Good stall teams are able to handle threats such as Mega Heracross even if they run Swords Dance, so please stop saying this. And if you guys still insist on saying that it'll be bad for stall, this really has nothing to do with the fact that it is broken. Like I said before, banning Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D was terrible for hyper offense, yet no one can deny they were broken. The question is if Aegislash is healthy for the metagame as it is right now, and it's not. Aegislash is a presence on so many teams and forces so many Pokémon to run bad moves just to hit it that it's not even funny, so yes, it has to go.
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