Metagame NP: NU (beta): Welcome to the NU Age (Combusken Banned)

[ryan]

Alternatively, you don't run setup fodder.

 

[En Passant]

Shadow tag is already banned on showdown actually so there isnt anything else to discuss about it.

From the NP UU thread. See ya, Gothorita.

 

[Eashy]

I know this might be a bit bold but I personally think that Shiftry should be suspected. It has 2 amazing sets and one pretty gimmicky 1. Defog and SD are both amazing in the meta and have completely different counters. For example, Vileplume is a common counter to the defog set but dies to a +2 Knock Off and Granbull is a pretty good counter to the SD set by takes massive damage from Leaf Storm. There is no telling what set it is when it comes it so if you predict wrong then you're fucked.

The main reason why I want it suspected though is for the SD set. The SD set is stupidly powerful and surprisingly easy to set up. Shiftry can set up an SD on Seismitoad, Rhydon, Golem, Lanturn, Feraligatr, Samurott, Uxie, Mespirit, and basically any other Water or Psychic type because none of them want to take a Leaf Storm or Knock Off. And Once its at +2 its pretty god damn scary.

Useless Wall of Calcs:

Hide

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 302-356 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dragalge: 290-343 (86.8 - 102.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 257-304 (84.5 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 243-289 (72.7 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 239-282 (71.5 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 204-242 (57.6 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 203-239 (52.8 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Togetic: 143-169 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Even the best SD shiftry counters just need a bit of chip damage to be OHKOed by +2 Shiftry.

But TheSwagger, you can just use a faster dark resist and be fine right? Nope.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Liepard: 269-317 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Primeape: 234-277 (86 - 101.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sawk: 198-233 (68 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The only offensive checks to SD Shiftry are Gurdurr and Sawk. So lets review. OHKO's most common physical walls and is only checked by Gurdurr, Sawk, and faster mons with sub (which is basically limited to mismagius). This thing is stupidly powerful and I believe that it should at least be suspected.

 

[Magis4Life]

Slurpuff is really a problem

You don't have to tell me twice. Not only is it versatile, but it's different sets have different checks. Steelix hard checks belly drum sets for example but loses to cm variants as long as sturdy is broken. Probopass needs a status move to even deal with cm variants of slurpuff but it is not very difficult to deal with probo with two very exploitable weaknesses. Belly drum sets practically wreck the meta. And to be perfectly honest, I don't really understand how priority is all that much of a problem for slurpuff. It resists the ever so prevalent sucker punch, mach punch, and bullet punch from Hariyama does little damage unless if banded and even then that's shaky. Generally I need a decent chunk of priority users against slurpuff for priority to be a problem to slurpuff or exhibit enough offensive pressure in order for slurpuff not to be problematic. Though if i can status it while it sets up, it certainly helps.

 

[Cuhpcakes]

You don't have to tell me twice. Not only is it versatile, but it's different sets have different checks. Steelix hard checks belly drum sets for example but loses to cm variants as long as sturdy is broken. Probopass needs a status move to even deal with cm variants of slurpuff but it is not very difficult to deal with probo with two very exploitable weaknesses. Belly drum sets practically wreck the meta. And to be perfectly honest, I don't really understand how priority is all that much of a problem for slurpuff. It resists the ever so prevalent sucker punch, mach punch, and bullet punch from Hariyama does little damage unless if banded and even then that's shaky. Generally I need a decent chunk of priority users against slurpuff for priority to be a problem to slurpuff or exhibit enough offensive pressure in order for slurpuff not to be problematic. Though if i can status it while it sets up, it certainly helps.

But then the infamous Chesto Resto deserves a mention. Status won't even bother these varients and umm...

If Slurpuff Calm Minds the switch when you bring out Vileplume or Probopass, Puff can CM once again bringing its special bulk to +2 then Vileplume and Probo can't even scare Slurpuff. Chesto Berry would just wake up from Vileplume's Sleep Powder proceeding to ohko Plume with a powerful Psychic or Flamethrower. Rest would take care of other status walls try to utilize for the sake of "crippling" Puffy along with healing damage, Puffy with physical bulk investment is a juggernaut.

I seriously can't think of a single Pokemon who can switch safely on everything Slurpuff has to offer and counter it. Calm Mind lures Belly Drum counters and beats them while Belly Drum destroys nearly the entire tier.

The only thing close to fullfilling this role is Muk with physical bulk investment... to live an Adamant +6 Return and ohko back. But yeah... Muk with physical bulk and nature sounds like a waste, losing viability of beating lots of Poke just so it can live a +6 Return from Puffy. Not to mention the lack of solid recovery outside Rest and Pain Split.

 

[Choice Banned]

But then the infamous Chesto Resto deserves a mention. Status won't even bother these varients and umm...

If Slurpuff Calm Minds the switch when you bring out Vileplume or Probopass, Puff can CM once again bringing its special bulk to +2 then Vileplume and Probo can't even scare Slurpuff. Chesto Berry would just wake up from Vileplume's Sleep Powder proceeding to ohko Plume with a powerful Psychic or Flamethrower. Rest would take care of other status walls try to utilize for the sake of "crippling" Puffy along with healing damage, Puffy with physical bulk investment is a juggernaut.

I seriously can't think of a single Pokemon who can switch safely on everything Slurpuff has to offer and counter it. Calm Mind lures Belly Drum counters and beats them while Belly Drum destroys nearly the entire tier.

The only thing close to fullfilling this role is Muk with physical bulk investment... to live an Adamant +6 Return and ohko back. But yeah... Muk with physical bulk and nature sounds like a waste, losing viability of beating lots of Poke just so it can live a +6 Return from Puffy. Not to mention the lack of solid recovery outside Rest and Pain Split.

Are you forgetting how barren Slurpuff's physical movepool is when saying that Belly Drum destroys nearly the entire tier? Just realize what set it is, and switch into the appropriate counter. It has the same problem as Klinklang. Reliable set-up, but no movepool. If only the cupcake got the elemental punches...

 

[skies]

Are you forgetting how barren Slurpuff's physical movepool is when saying that Belly Drum destroys nearly the entire tier? Just realize what set it is, and switch into the appropriate counter. It has the same problem as Klinklang. Reliable set-up, but no movepool. If only the cupcake got the elemental punches...

Play Rough + Return hits pretty much everything hard enough except Steel-types, but Slurpuff can muscle through some of them or it can simply wait until they're dead / weakened...

 

[cacturne]

Are you forgetting how barren Slurpuff's physical movepool is when saying that Belly Drum destroys nearly the entire tier? Just realize what set it is, and switch into the appropriate counter. It has the same problem as Klinklang. Reliable set-up, but no movepool. If only the cupcake got the elemental punches...

It's not that easy when you talk about +6 attack and +2 speed. BD puff is an incredible and insanely powerful lategame sweeper. With the fire types currently in NU being as good as they are it's not too hard to remove steels to let slurpuff rampage.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Are you forgetting how barren Slurpuff's physical movepool is when saying that Belly Drum destroys nearly the entire tier? Just realize what set it is, and switch into the appropriate counter. It has the same problem as Klinklang. Reliable set-up, but no movepool. If only the cupcake got the elemental punches...

Are you forgetting how Slurpuff destroys nearly the entire tier when saying that its physical movepool is barren? Outspeeding almost every Scarfer at max Attack at the cost of only 25% HP is a big deal when among the only things that beat you are Probopass, Steelix, and Weezing, all of which are beaten by the CM set.

 

[ck49]

Seriously, Belly Drum + Undurden. What the hell were you thinking GameFreak?

I think Game Freak sufficiently nerfed Slurpuff compared to some of the other stuff they put out. It is NU after all.

 

[Bluwing]

So ive played a bit with Slurpuff mainly it's cm set and I have to say it's pretty decent, but it kinda miss the extra oomph to actually work really well as a late game cleaner. The nice thing about cm puff and bd puff is that they have completly different counters which can give you the edge over your opponent as he won't know your set until it's too late. The belly drum set I havent played with yet, but with it's counters gone and checks weakened it has an easy time sweeping, tho it's coverage is ass it's typing is amazing which makes it a lot easier for it to setup. Idk if it's to early to rank it because I feel people havent been playing with it enough to give it a clear ranking, but I guess thats w/e atm so ill give my opinion. So from my experiences with it I would say it fits nicely in A rank atm because I think it will rise higher than this when people get more used to it.

Edit: Lmao did I rly post my ranking here..

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Seriously, Belly Drum + Undurden. What the hell were you thinking GameFreak?.

I agreed with this, up until the point I looked at it's horrific Physical movepool. The only coverage move it has is Thief, which is counter productive for a Poke with Unburden. Perhaps if it got something to level out it's coverage, *cough* Fire Punch *cough* (Excuse me), it'd be better off. However, until then, be BD set just won't be as good its CM set (coverage wise).

 

[termi]

It doesn't really care about its coverage tbh, as long as you have something that takes care of Steel types and weaken Poison types, Slurpuff only needs one free turn in order to clean your opponent's team. CM is better coverage-wise, but it's much weaker so it needs the entire opposing team to be weakened before it can clean rather than just one or two mons.

 

[Brawlfest]

+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Klinklang: 206-243 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Return vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Vileplume: 290-342 (81.9 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 223-263 (66.7 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Probopass: 168-198 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Garbodor: 290-342 (79.6 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 204-240 (61 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is bs. Who needs coverage when you can just

Hide

KILL EVERYTHING.

 

[ReShift_]

I'm with everyone else on this. Slurpuff can really rip through entire teams with next to no support whatsoever. It has access to both Belly Drum and Calm Mind, various physical and special moves, plus the key of unpredictability. Even after your opponent gets a Belly Drum set up, you can still see it kill everything with a Flamethrower. It has a STAB base 90 Play Rough, which freaking hurts anything that doesn't resist it. Slurpuff requires almost every team to have an entire prevention system which usually doesn't work. I simply feel like NU would be a better tier without players constantly wondering how to beat this demon from candy land.

 

[psVoltage]

You know this is sounding mighty familiar to when mega lucario got banned.........
Amazing physical and special sets, unpredictable, and it beats its normal checks with the oposite set. Having to dedicate two checks to a certain mon is just stupid, and the argument that 2 or 3 pokemon check and its ok is stupid aswell and limits what you can do with teams.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

For clarification I was talking more so about when it was revealed to have unburden + BD. Before the tiering came to be. It's amazing against the things in NU, I won't argue that, but that's not what I was referring to.

 

[rob.]

I agree with everyone here, it's a cool mon' but enough is enough. Slurpuff is easily able to setup on a majority of the meta. Plus it has a ton of viable movesets that can all work on all teams. Whether it's stall, hyper offense, bulky offense, semi-stall, or balance, it really doesn't matter. Slurpuff has no true counters since all would-be counters are weak to other Slurpuff variants, and on top of that it's really hard to predict which Slurpuff you're up against. One mistake against Slurpuff could really be the difference between winning and losing. I'm really hoping the council quickbans this Pokemon because it's too much for the metagame to handle.

 

[Lost Soul]

Yea, I don't see Slurpluff sticking around NU for too long, It's a bit too unpredictable and if you guess wrong then there goes your check just like that being devoured by a overgrown mutant cupcake. It's not to hard to set up if you know what your doing, be it the CM set or the BD set especially if your opponent doesn't know which one you are at the start, if they think you are a BD set and send out feroseed or steelix or weezing and you turned out to be CM set then that's one dead "check" an vice versa for if they guessed your the cm set and sent out a cm set check only to find out your a BD set, the Mutant Cupcake of death from my personal experiences is just a little too much for the current NU metagame to handle as it just doesn't have the appropriate counters down here to deal with it on a consistent basis and you have to carry to many checks on one team to be able to deal with it consistently and even then you have to guess which set it is from turn one or you may lose one of those checks. The best way to beat it for me is to play very aggressively when its around and to try to get as much damage on it as i can early on and to have a priority/very fast scarf user handy to finish it off and even then it's a little bit risky, but yea i agree that the mutant cupcake probably needs to go at some point and it will most likely end up gone at some point.

 

[This Is Fearsome]

The best way to beat it for me is to play very aggressively when its around and to try to get as much damage on it as i can early on and to have a priority/very fast scarf user handy to finish it off and even then it's a little bit risky, but yea i agree that the mutant cupcake probably needs to go at some point and it will most likely end up gone at some point.

And then you face the issue that most common priority (sucker punch, mach punch) aren't doing much so you'll need a couple of users if you haven't chipped significant damage on the BD set. Priority is largely out of the picture for dealing with the CM variant (and straight up LOL nice try if it has cotton guard up) as it'll tend to have significant bulk and possibly will have chesto-rested damage off already

 

[Lass Geneviéve]

Slurpuff is going to get the same ban reason as Mega Lucario did. When you think it's Belly Drum and switch into your Physical wall to deal with it you get popped by a Special Move. And vice versa.
Even with his mediocre movepool he wraps up the weakened NU tier. It's a really good sweeper both physically and specially. I don't think it will stay NU.

 

[Tribute]

It won't go up, if it gets hammered its just going to rot in BL purgatory

 

[Akir]

So I've been tinkering with the damage calculator to try to find a check for both the special and the physical Slurpuff and this is what I came up with:

Steelix @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Atk / 64 Def / 168 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Earthquake
- Roar

So this set is all over the place, but it actually has just enough EVs in all the right places. Just enough special bulk with enough physical bulk to do Steelix things.
Some calcs:

252+ SpA Slurpuff Surf vs. 252 HP / 168+ SpD Steelix: 168-198 (47.4 - 55.9%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ SpA Slurpuff Surf vs. 252 HP / 168+ SpD Steelix: 250-296 (70.6 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 126-148 (35.5 - 41.8%) -- 86.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

And to top it off:

24 Atk Steelix Gyro Ball (104 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 230-272 (75.1 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So this set can come in while Slurpuff sets up and do a minimum of 75% to offensive Slurpuff, or just kill the Slurpuff directly if Unburden is activated. But you might be saying to yourself "Wow this set is really dumb. You made a perfectly good wall into bait/check, and it only gets the kill if both SR and spikes are in play!" Well you are correct and that's half of my point. There is not really any Pokemon that can check BOTH kinds of Slurpuff reliably and that speaks in volumes about just how incredibly powerful that cream puff is.

 

[SotheBlacKnight]

So I've been tinkering with the damage calculator to try to find a check for both the special and the physical Slurpuff and this is what I came up with:

Steelix @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Atk / 64 Def / 168 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Earthquake
- Roar

So this set is all over the place, but it actually has just enough EVs in all the right places. Just enough special bulk with enough physical bulk to do Steelix things.
Some calcs:

252+ SpA Slurpuff Surf vs. 252 HP / 168+ SpD Steelix: 168-198 (47.4 - 55.9%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ SpA Slurpuff Surf vs. 252 HP / 168+ SpD Steelix: 250-296 (70.6 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 126-148 (35.5 - 41.8%) -- 86.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

And to top it off:

24 Atk Steelix Gyro Ball (104 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 230-272 (75.1 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So this set can come in while Slurpuff sets up and do a minimum of 75% to offensive Slurpuff, or just kill the Slurpuff directly if Unburden is activated. But you might be saying to yourself "Wow this set is really dumb. You made a perfectly good wall into bait/check, and it only gets the kill if both SR and spikes are in play!" Well you are correct and that's half of my point. There is not really any Pokemon that can check BOTH kinds of Slurpuff reliably and that speaks in volumes about just how incredibly powerful that cream puff is.

Actually I think Sheer Force Iron Head would be better:

24 Atk Sheer Force Steelix Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 230-272 (75.1 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
24 Atk Sheer Force Steelix Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 230-272 (62.5 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
24 Atk Sheer Force Steelix Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slurpuff: 162-192 (44 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

It's less reliant on Slurpuff's Speed and it can grantee to 2HKO on all offensive sets, plus Steelix is so bulky it doesn't need sturdy to survive for the most part.

 

[Ares]

Actually I think Sheer Force Iron Head would be better:

24 Atk Sheer Force Steelix Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 230-272 (75.1 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
24 Atk Sheer Force Steelix Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 230-272 (62.5 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
24 Atk Sheer Force Steelix Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slurpuff: 162-192 (44 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

It's less reliant on Slurpuff's Speed and it can grantee to 2HKO on all offensive sets, plus Steelix is so bulky it doesn't need sturdy to survive for the most part.

I think the set he came up with was more to fight against the offensive variants. I agree sheer force iron head is better against the defensive variant, but the chance for a OHKO with gyro ball if they rest or activate their unburden is also something to take into account.