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If you simultaneously give any set-up sweeper Screens and Memento support, they're going to be hard to deal with. BP is still alive, but after having followed dEnIsSsS around for a little bit, my conclusion is that it's just not very good anymore. Yes it can win matches, yes his team (Thundy [Taunt/Twave/HP Ice/Bolt]/Azelf [Taunt/Screens/KABLOOIE]/Whimsicott [Taunt/Encore/Memento/Tailwind]/Smeargle [Herb+Geomancy/Cotton Guard/BP/Dark Void | Taunt]/Espeon [Stored Power/Dazzling Gleam/Mornign Sun/Sub]/Clefable [???], later switching Clefable and Thundy for Heatran and Gothitelle) could be worse than the one in the replays in this thread, but you'd have to be a fool (or be massively asspained) to say it's anything more than a sort of decent strat, let alone one that makes Scolipede worthy of A+/S rank.
You're seriously underestimating the amount of support Scolipede provides. If it can let something as frail as Espeon to suddenly turn into a bulky set-up sweeper that can can OHKO most of the meta, imagine what it can do with more dangerous threats such as M-Mawile. The support it provides is unparalleled in the tier and it's therefore worthy of a higher rank.
Or I could use Mamoswine or Weavile, who are much better pokemon and also have a more powerful Ice Shard without set-up.
Ice Shard on Cloyster is used because it doesn't really need the water coverage most of the time and to pick off faster weakened targets, or priority users. It's really no different than M-Pinsir running both Return and Quick Attack.
Rock and Ice are both resisted by Steel, but most OU steel types have a secondary type that removes one or both of those resistances (Skarmory, Excadrill, Scizor, Heatran and Ferrothorn come to mind).
Except Cloyster IS a non-threat in OU. It's just not good.
Cloyster is a massively underrated threat in OU. It's essentially a Mega Pinsir that trades some power for better speed after setting up, special bulk for physical bulk, doesn't take up the mega slot and can run items.
Yes its defensive type sucks, but so does Pinsir's. Both of them require support, especially entry hazard management and something that soften their hard checks (most notably Aegislash).
Yet Pinsir is A-rank and Cloyster is D-rank. It's a glaring double standard and it needs to be fixed.
Name something from those 13 Pokemon that Cloyster can SAFELY set up on. He requires prediction, Defog support and Thundurus/Aegislash gone. D rank is fine for it.
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 184-217 (76 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Clefable outslows Cloyster so Cloyster moves first and will use Shell Smash while Clefable promptly OHKO's it.
I won't say Cloyster is a bad Pokemon but the amount of support it needs to actually get up a Shell Smash and have some of it's checks and counters weakened like Skarmory makes it difficult to use. It doesn't suck as much as other D rank pokemon though in my opinion.
Rock and Ice are both resisted by Steel, but most OU steel types have a secondary type that removes one or both of those resistances (Skarmory, Excadrill, Scizor, Heatran and Ferrothorn come to mind).
Skarmory can take a +2 Icicle Spear/Rock Blast and phaze Cloyster away. Mamo can hit Skarm hard with Icicle Crash while Weavile can cripple it with Knock Off.
Jolly Mamo and Weavile can also beat Adamant Excadrill 1-on-1 (with a bit of prior damage in the case of Weavile).
Mamo and Weavile usually do better against Scizor, especially non-mega variants. Doesn't change the fact that they lose against it, but still.
Mamo and Weavile both punish Heatran with EQ / Low Kick. Cloyster fails to OHKO it and then gets phazed / OHKOed by Lava Plume.
Mamo and Weavile can 2HKO Ferrothorn and iirc Weavile can take a Power Whip.
Also note that Weavile has access to Swords Dance and does SS + Ice Shard Cloyster's job better since it has great coverage, KNOCK FUCKING OFF and can safely use a Life Orb. SS Cloyster should never use Ice Shard.
Cloyster is a massively underrated threat in OU. It's essentially a Mega Pinsir that trades some power for better speed after setting up, special bulk for physical bulk, doesn't take up the mega slot and can run items.
Yes its defensive type sucks, but so does Pinsir's. Both of them require support, especially entry hazard management and something that soften their hard checks (most notably Aegislash).
Yet Pinsir is A-rank and Cloyster is D-rank. It's a glaring double standard and it needs to be fixed.
Yes, because Cloyster surely has 100 base speed, Flying STAB (which fyi is excellent in the OU meta), excellent coverage in just two moves and a quad-resistance to Fighting.
The main reason I don't like Cloyster is it relies so heavily on setting up, it's pitifully weak if it doesn't. And just about any special attacker can KO it, even wall types without much offensive presence will get a nice boost because they hit it after it Shell Smashes.
0 SpA Blissey Fire Blast vs. -1 4 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 175-206 (72.3 - 85.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
that's about the weakest shit viable in ou, short of alomomola scald
So it's really easy to exploit Cloyster's desperation to set up.
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 184-217 (76 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Clefable outslows Cloyster so Cloyster moves first and will use Shell Smash while Clefable promptly OHKO's it.
I won't say Cloyster is a bad Pokemon but the amount of support it needs to actually get up a Shell Smash and have some of it's checks and counters weakened like Skarmory makes it difficult to use. It doesn't suck as much as other D rank pokemon though in my opinion.
Not to mention Clefable isn't even weak to Ice and White Herb variants lose to Unaware Clefable.
Skarmory can take a +2 Rock Blast and phaze Cloyster away. Mamo can hit it hard with Icicle Crash while Weavile can cripple it with Knock Off.
Mamo and Weavile can also beat Excadrill 1-on-1 (with a bit of prior damage in the case of Weavile).
Mamo and Weavile usually do better against Scizor, especially non-mega variants. Doesn't change the fact that they lose against it, but still.
Mamo and Weavile both punish Heatran with EQ / Low Kick. Cloyster fails to OHKO it and then gets phazed / OHKOed by Lava Plume.
Mamo and Weavile can 2HKO Ferrothorn and iirc Weavile can take a Power Whip.
Also note that Weavile has access to Swords Dance and does SS + Ice Shard Cloyster's job better since it has great coverage, KNOCK FUCKING OFF and can safely use a Life Orb. SS Cloyster should never use Ice Shard.
Yes, because Cloyster surely has 100 base speed, Flying STAB (which fyi is excellent in the OU meta), excellent coverage in just two moves and a quad-resistance to Fighting.
Skarmory can be ohkoed by icicle spear after stealth rock, icicle crash doesnt do shit to cloyster you probably mean freeze-dry, ferrothorn is ohkoed by icicle spear and mamoswine is slower than excadrill. I dont really care about cloyster since its ass but its not fair to make things up to make it look worse than it already is.
But yeah, Cloyster is a gimmicky sweeper that could really surprise if it does manage to get the Shell Smash boost, which is extremely hard due to Cloyster's pathetic special defense and low speed at +0. I don't think it should go unranked.
Cloyster is generally used as a lead so the Stealth Rock weakness usually doesn't materialize (hence it doesn't really require hazard support) and it either runs a sash to guarantee the smash (which makes its nearly non-existent special bulk mostly irrelevant) or a Kings Rock to troll defensive mons and have a good shot at bullshitting its way past things that resist its moves. It's annoying enough to remain ranked and it's seen use on a couple of fairly decent ladder teams in the past like that Screens HO one.
Yes, it can get lost in a discussion about Cloyster, because your exemple only use the first sentence of S rank. Here's the real one :
"S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits."
Enough talk about Cloyster guys, unless you want to make a post about it that is not a one-liner or explains why it's good or bad in a well thought way.
And no more talk about the S rank definition either, it's fine the way it is.
Thundurus-T isn't actually quite as horrible as people are thinking it is. It's actually quite good at breaking stall and weakening large portions of it for its teammates. The more I play with it the more I'm impressed. Most people go straight to Thundurus because, well, Thundurus outclasses Thundurus! However, Thundurus does have an immunity to Electric-type attacks that can be taken advantage of on offensive teams, because Thundurus' Thunder Wave can be a nuisance. Thundurus-T also beats any Thundurus that carries Hidden Power [Flying], which is pretty cool actually. It excels against Stall teams, ripping them apart with Nasty Plot, as its 145 base Special Attack is not to be underestimated. It has the same coverage of Thundurus as well: Thunderbolt / Focus Blast / Hidden Power [Flying or Ice]. This is its power:
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 515-608 (73.1 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 411-486 (64 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
And more entry hazard support breaks it down as well, and, at this point, Thunderbolt does enough that you don't even have to use Focus Blast again and worry about its accuracy. Thundurus-T is a great wallbreaker on Offensive teams to weaken down defensive teams for its partners. However, Thundurus-T doesn't really have any bulk. It also has an unfortunate Stealth Rock weakness, plus, it has an //ok// Speed of 101. It misses out on Prankster and Volt Absorb can easily be played around. It really can struggle against offensive teams. Overall, though, Thundurus-T honestly isn't as horrible as Roserade and Gastrodon, but more along the lines of being as good as Krookodile and Shuckle. For these reasons, I'd like Thundurus-T to rise to C+ Rank. I want B-, but I feel it is a stretch, so I'll settle with C+ for now.
Banette may not be the best mega in the metagame, but it's ability to prankster Will-O-Wisp, Disable, and Destiny Bond (Which is pretty much a guaranteed kill), and at the same time back it all up with a massive attack stat and Knock Off/Phantom Force/Shadow Sneak to back it up, it is a force to be reckoned with.
Thundurus-T isn't actually quite as horrible as people are thinking it is. It's actually quite good at breaking stall and weakening large portions of it for its teammates. The more I play with it the more I'm impressed. Most people go straight to Thundurus because, well, Thundurus outclasses Thundurus! However, Thundurus does have an immunity to Electric-type attacks that can be taken advantage of on offensive teams, because Thundurus' Thunder Wave can be a nuisance. Thundurus-T also beats any Thundurus that carries Hidden Power [Flying], which is pretty cool actually. It excels against Stall teams, ripping them apart with Nasty Plot, as its 145 base Special Attack is not to be underestimated. It has the same coverage of Thundurus as well: Thunderbolt / Focus Blast / Hidden Power [Flying or Ice]. This is its power:
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 515-608 (73.1 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 411-486 (64 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
And more entry hazard support breaks it down as well, and, at this point, Thunderbolt does enough that you don't even have to use Focus Blast again and worry about its accuracy. Thundurus-T is a great wallbreaker on Offensive teams to weaken down defensive teams for its partners. However, Thundurus-T doesn't really have any bulk. It also has an unfortunate Stealth Rock weakness, plus, it has an //ok// Speed of 101. It misses out on Prankster and Volt Absorb can easily be played around. It really can struggle against offensive teams. Overall, though, Thundurus-T honestly isn't as horrible as Roserade and Gastrodon, but more along the lines of being as good as Krookodile and Shuckle. For these reasons, I'd like Thundurus-T to rise to C+ Rank. I want B-, but I feel it is a stretch, so I'll settle with C+ for now.
I disagree. NP Thundurus-T is a complete liability against offensive teams. It's outsped by Landorus, Garchomp, Lati@s, Mega Medicham/Gardevoir, etc etc etc. Even stall can somewhat handle it with pokes such as Hippowdon, Chesnaught and Quagsire (Grass Knot Thundy-T is rare). It has to rely on Focus Miss way too much, it's weak to Stealth Rock, it's not that fast actually and Thundurus-I does its job better. HP Ice Thundurus is more common than HP Flying variants anyway. Thundurus-T can't do crap against rain bar getting rid of Politoed, whereas Thundurus can at least use Prankster Thunder Wave to stop Kabutops or Kingdra.
Double Dance Thundy-T is better in my eyes since that set outspeeds anything, but it gets raped way too easily by many priority attacks, especially when coming from Weavile, Mamoswine, Mega Mawile and Azumarill, who can use the opponent's rain against him/her. Even Talonflame can revenge kill a ~40% Thundurus-T, which isn't uncommon if SR is present on the genie's side.
I disagree. NP Thundurus-T is a complete liability against offensive teams. It's outsped by Landorus, Garchomp, Lati@s, Mega Medicham/Gardevoir, etc etc etc. Even stall can somewhat handle it with pokes such as Hippowdon, Chesnaught and Quagsire (Grass Knot Thundy-T is rare). It has to rely on Focus Miss way too much, it's weak to Stealth Rock, it's not that fast actually and Thundurus-I does its job better. HP Ice Thundurus is more common than HP Flying variants anyway. Thundurus-T can't do crap against rain bar getting rid of Politoed, whereas Thundurus can at least use Prankster Thunder Wave to stop Kabutops or Kingdra.
Double Dance Thundy-T is better in my eyes since that set outspeeds anything, but it gets raped way too easily by many priority attacks, especially when coming from Weavile, Mamoswine, Mega Mawile and Azumarill, who can use the opponent's rain against him/her. Even Talonflame can revenge kill a ~40% Thundurus-T, which isn't uncommon if SR is present on the genie's side.
Not gonna argue on Thundurus-T's viablitiy, as I have litteraly no clue, but it's not outsped by Megacham and Megagard. Thundurus-T has 101 base spee, those two have 100, so he outspeeds by a few points.
Not gonna argue on Thundurus-T's viablitiy, as I have litteraly no clue, but it's not outsped by Megacham and Megagard. Thundurus-T has 101 base spee, those two have 100, so he outspeeds by a few points.
Thundurus-T isn't actually quite as horrible as people are thinking it is. It's actually quite good at breaking stall and weakening large portions of it for its teammates. The more I play with it the more I'm impressed. Most people go straight to Thundurus because, well, Thundurus outclasses Thundurus! However, Thundurus does have an immunity to Electric-type attacks that can be taken advantage of on offensive teams, because Thundurus' Thunder Wave can be a nuisance. Thundurus-T also beats any Thundurus that carries Hidden Power [Flying], which is pretty cool actually. It excels against Stall teams, ripping them apart with Nasty Plot, as its 145 base Special Attack is not to be underestimated. It has the same coverage of Thundurus as well: Thunderbolt / Focus Blast / Hidden Power [Flying or Ice]. This is its power:
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 515-608 (73.1 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 411-486 (64 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
And more entry hazard support breaks it down as well, and, at this point, Thunderbolt does enough that you don't even have to use Focus Blast again and worry about its accuracy. Thundurus-T is a great wallbreaker on Offensive teams to weaken down defensive teams for its partners. However, Thundurus-T doesn't really have any bulk. It also has an unfortunate Stealth Rock weakness, plus, it has an //ok// Speed of 101. It misses out on Prankster and Volt Absorb can easily be played around. It really can struggle against offensive teams. Overall, though, Thundurus-T honestly isn't as horrible as Roserade and Gastrodon, but more along the lines of being as good as Krookodile and Shuckle. For these reasons, I'd like Thundurus-T to rise to C+ Rank. I want B-, but I feel it is a stretch, so I'll settle with C+ for now.
You talk about how well it does against stall, as it can 2HKO Chansey at +2 with Focus Blast, but Timid Thundurus-I can do that anyway
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 338-398 (52.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Admittedly most people don't run the full NP/Tbolt/HP/FB set because they prefer the utility of Thunder Wave, but you don't have to run that if breaking stall is your concern. Meanwhile the added use of getting the jump on the likes Garchomp, Keldeo, Lati@s, Mega Pinsir and so on counts for a lot more than Therian's slight extra power and Electric immunity. Even as a wallbreaker it's still not really worth the teamslot over normal Thundurus
Cloyster is a massively underrated threat in OU. It's essentially a Mega Pinsir that trades some power for better speed after setting up, special bulk for physical bulk, doesn't take up the mega slot and can run items.
Yes its defensive type sucks, but so does Pinsir's. Both of them require support, especially entry hazard management and something that soften their hard checks (most notably Aegislash).
Yet Pinsir is A-rank and Cloyster is D-rank. It's a glaring double standard and it needs to be fixed.
Hold on a second. If you insist on comparig Cloyster to Pinsir, get your facts straight at least. Cloyster does not trade SOME power, it trades over 1/4 of its power on its main STAB and a full 40% of its power on the priority move. It also trades almost 1/2 of its special bulk for a roughly 24% increase in physical bulk.
It's defensive typing is far worse than Pinsir's too.
Cloyster pretty much has to run White Herb as its item, which is essentially like not running an item at all.
Cloyster's speed advantage after boosting is largely outclassed by Pinsir's speed and power advantage pre-boost.
So what exactly are we takling about here. Cloyster is completely outclassed by Pinsir (and Diggersby too btw), so why would it not stay in D. By your logic Salamence would have to move up to B rank too, because it's actually a strong mon in OU, but it stays where it is because DNite completely outclasses it.
Banette may not be the best mega in the metagame, but it's ability to prankster Will-O-Wisp, Disable, and Destiny Bond (Which is pretty much a guaranteed kill), and at the same time back it all up with a massive attack stat and Knock Off/Phantom Force/Shadow Sneak to back it up, it is a force to be reckoned with.
Mega Banette also has the pretty significant issue of requiring a turn before Prankster actually works due to Mega Evolution mechanics, meaning you would either have to come in and find a moment where Banette can threaten to KO the opponent with Knock Off/Shadow Sneak or use a slot on Protect. I think it's fine at C.
You talk about how well it does against stall, as it can 2HKO Chansey at +2 with Focus Blast, but Timid Thundurus-I can do that anyway
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 338-398 (52.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Admittedly most people don't run the full NP/Tbolt/HP/FB set because they prefer the utility of Thunder Wave, but you don't have to run that if breaking stall is your concern. Meanwhile the added use of getting the jump on the likes Garchomp, Keldeo, Lati@s, Mega Pinsir and so on counts for a lot more than Therian's slight extra power and Electric immunity. Even as a wallbreaker it's still not really worth the teamslot over normal Thundurus
But you skip the part about how Thundurus-Therian doesn't have to use Focus Blast twice in a row:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 338-398 (52.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 188-224 (29.2 - 34.8%) -- 10.7% chance to 3HKO]
Even with max rolls each time, Chansey is not KOed. Plus, relying on Focus Blast when Chansey can just Wish / Soft-boiled is very risky. Thundurus-T doesn't have this problem:
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 411-486 (64 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 231-274 (35.9 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Hitting low damage rolls both times is a total of 99.9% damage, so, yeah, Chansey dies regardless. And, if you run Timid (which I don't advise):
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 377-445 (58.7 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 212-251 (33 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
Then there's 91.7% - 108.7% which is about a ~50% chance to KO Chansey with these moves alone. The fact remains that Thundurus-T does better versus Chansey than Thundurus, when running Nasty Plot. Thundurus-I does better than Thundurus-T when running Taunt. Both of them can muscle past Chansey, but Thundurus-T just has an easier time. Then, from there, it dismantles stall. A +2 Focus Blast 2HKOes 252/252+ Mega Venusaur 100% of the time without hazards, that's how strong it is. 252/252+ Mega Charizard X (I know this isn't the usual spread, but for the sake of making Pokemon as bulky as can be I made it 252/252+) is 2HKOed by +2 Thunderbolt without any previous damage. Thundurus-T's power is really crazy when boosted, and that's its downfall is well. It has a very hard time setting up on offensive teams which put pressure on it, but versus Defensive teams it can set up a lot easier, then proceed to 2HKO pretty much everything on the opponent's team.
I disagree. NP Thundurus-T is a complete liability against offensive teams. It's outsped by Landorus, Garchomp, Lati@s, Mega Medicham/Gardevoir, etc etc etc. Even stall can somewhat handle it with pokes such as Hippowdon, Chesnaught and Quagsire (Grass Knot Thundy-T is rare). It has to rely on Focus Miss way too much, it's weak to Stealth Rock, it's not that fast actually and Thundurus-I does its job better. HP Ice Thundurus is more common than HP Flying variants anyway. Thundurus-T can't do crap against rain bar getting rid of Politoed, whereas Thundurus can at least use Prankster Thunder Wave to stop Kabutops or Kingdra.
Double Dance Thundy-T is better in my eyes since that set outspeeds anything, but it gets raped way too easily by many priority attacks, especially when coming from Weavile, Mamoswine, Mega Mawile and Azumarill, who can use the opponent's rain against him/her. Even Talonflame can revenge kill a ~40% Thundurus-T, which isn't uncommon if SR is present on the genie's side.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 16 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 183-216 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 489-577 (152.8 - 180.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Flying vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 183-216 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 262-310 (86.4 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 468-551 (130.7 - 153.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 16 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 333-394 (109.9 - 130%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 190-224 (62.9 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Ice Punch vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 366-432 (120.7 - 142.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Flying vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Medicham: 346-408 (132.5 - 156.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 16 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 276-325 (91 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 175-208 (62.9 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Thundurus-T has teammates for this, and I have mentioned before how it struggles versus offensive teams. Plus, Mega Medicham and Mega Gardevoir are outspeed pre-Mega Evolution, or the turn they mega evolve, so they don't outspeed then. And those Pokemon you mentioned for Stall:
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chesnaught: 530-624 (139.4 - 164.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 265-313 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (KOes after if Hidden Power Flying ((This is accounting Leftovers for two turns)))
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 357-421 (85 - 100.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 179-212 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 287-339 (72.8 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Hidden Power Flying KOes after Focus Blast)
Both are weak to Stealth Rock, so when comparing them this is not a valid argument, both forms are weak to Stealth Rock but what does that prove? And yes, it does use Focus Blast on a lot of Pokemon because it has great coverage and power, why is that a bad thing? It's a bad thing if it has to use it repeatedly, but if it just uses it once to weaken a Pokemon then it is not a bad thing. The accuracy is a bummer, but so many things run Focus Blast anyways and I think we've all kind of gotten past this bit by now. Hidden Power Flying is the nature of choice when using Nasty Plot Thundurus-I, at least according to the analysis, for its ability to nail Mega Vensuaur, which is really good. Hidden Power Ice is great, but I prefer Hidden Power Flying on either form. And Thundurus-T actually can do one thing against Rain: absorb Thunders. It can do this, whereas Thundurus-I is just flat out nuked by them and it can't Thunder Wave these spammers. Thundurus-T can at least neutralize these Pokemon for a turn. It's not amazing against Rain, but Rain is really good versus a lot of Pokemon anyways. Don't use double dance set, honestly, I've tested it and it always comes out underwhelming. Here's the set I use in all of my posts, for reference:
Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 16 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Focus Blast
((P.S. If you really wanna say f you to Stall, run a Lum Berry :]))
The only reason I can see Thundy-T moving up is the fact it's under things like M-Banette which I don't really get. So I'm not sure if it's one of those cases where M-Banette should move down or Thundy-T should move up. Out of all the C- mons it sort of seems like Thundy-T doesn't really fit considering the fact it does pull off a decent nasty plot set and has access to other moves for coverage purposes to help the team it's on out. Yeah it's outclassed by it's original form overall no arguing that but I don't think it's as bad as people make it out to be compared to all the other C- mons.
But you skip the part about how Thundurus-Therian doesn't have to use Focus Blast twice in a row:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 338-398 (52.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 188-224 (29.2 - 34.8%) -- 10.7% chance to 3HKO]
Even with max rolls each time, Chansey is not KOed. Plus, relying on Focus Blast when Chansey can just Wish / Soft-boiled is very risky. Thundurus-T doesn't have this problem:
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 411-486 (64 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 231-274 (35.9 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Hitting low damage rolls both times is a total of 99.9% damage, so, yeah, Chansey dies regardless. And, if you run Timid (which I don't advise):
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 377-445 (58.7 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 212-251 (33 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
Then there's 91.7% - 108.7% which is about a ~50% chance to KO Chansey with these moves alone. The fact remains that Thundurus-T does better versus Chansey than Thundurus, when running Nasty Plot. Thundurus-I does better than Thundurus-T when running Taunt. Both of them can muscle past Chansey, but Thundurus-T just has an easier time. Then, from there, it dismantles stall. A +2 Focus Blast 2HKOes 252/252+ Mega Venusaur 100% of the time without hazards, that's how strong it is. 252/252+ Mega Charizard X (I know this isn't the usual spread, but for the sake of making Pokemon as bulky as can be I made it 252/252+) is 2HKOed by +2 Thunderbolt without any previous damage. Thundurus-T's power is really crazy when boosted, and that's its downfall is well. It has a very hard time setting up on offensive teams which put pressure on it, but versus Defensive teams it can set up a lot easier, then proceed to 2HKO pretty much everything on the opponent's team.
That seems like a really niche advantage, having to hit twice with Focus Blast isn't that big a deal, especially when you can mitigate the risk anyway by having Chansey switch into entry hazards a couple times. On Mega Venusaur, NVE Thunderbolt is stronger than NVE Focus Blast and will get the job done, or just run HP Flying since HP Ice isn't really needed for stall
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 159-187 (43.6 - 51.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
These 252/252+ SpD calcs aren't relevant because nobody runs those, hence you won't need that extra power as badly as you're going to need the 111 base Speed for all those offensive Pokémon in literally about 99% of games
You're also using Modest Thundurus-T in your calculations which means not only do you miss out on all the important Pokemon in the 102-110 range, you also miss out on Manaphy, Charizard, m-Medicham, m-Gardevoir and all the other base 100s. All for a slightly easier time beating Chansey and Venusaur? It's such a massive sacrifice for such a small payoff and leaves Thundurus-T more or less useless against most hyper offence, I really can't see how it would ever be worth it unless you can somehow completely cover the threats of all HO teams with your 5 remaining teamslots
I don't get why you'd run Thundurus-T when it's outclassed by Thundurus-I in almost every relevant role. The lower speed and loss of priority is, in my opinion, a bigger drawback than the increased Special Attack and Electric Immunity. (Besides, Thundurus-I is already immune to Thunder Wave, the most relevant Electric move for you to switch in on, and the things that run Electric attacks are probably running Ice attacks as well for that BoltBeam coverage).
I would like to nominate magnezone for B-. There are very few physical sweepers that can make quick work of the likes of skarmory and ferrothorn, even fewer pokemon want to play mind games with mawille. Magnezone generally takes care of all of all of these threats without any chance of them escaping with their lives. With magnezone, pokemon like mega pinsir, mega scizor, mega gyarados, sand rush excadrill, etc go from solid sweepers to nearly unstoppable. Magnezones bulk and massive special attack also serve it well outside of trapping as well.
I don't get why you'd run Thundurus-T when it's outclassed by Thundurus-I in almost every relevant role. The lower speed and loss of priority is, in my opinion, a bigger drawback than the increased Special Attack and Electric Immunity. (Besides, Thundurus-I is already immune to Thunder Wave, the most relevant Electric move for you to switch in on, and the things that run Electric attacks are probably running Ice attacks as well for that BoltBeam coverage).
