Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Rotosect]

Thundurus-T is better than Thundurus-I in rain teams since it provides a much needed Electric immunity.
Prankster isn't as useful in those teams because rain turns are precious and you want to deal as much damage as possible rather than use status moves and priority T.Wave shenanigans are less needed since you have Swift Swim abusers.

 

[Valmanway]

I would like to nominate magnezone for B-. There are very few physical sweepers that can make quick work of the likes of skarmory and ferrothorn, even fewer pokemon want to play mind games with mawille. Magnezone generally takes care of all of all of these threats without any chance of them escaping with their lives. With magnezone, pokemon like mega pinsir, mega scizor, mega gyarados, sand rush excadrill, etc go from solid sweepers to nearly unstoppable. Magnezones bulk and massive special attack also serve it well outside of trapping as well.

Not objecting to your nomination, but I feel I should point out that Mega Mawile can actually live any hit at full health, even from the Specs set, and 2HKO it with a Fire Fang and Sucker Punch combo. Also, Magnezone can't just switch into Mega Mawile, otherwise Magnezone risks giving her the chance to OHKO with a Focus Punch or fire off a Fire Fang and safely finish it off with Sucker Punch.

tl;dr Mega Mawile can escape with her life if she has the right set and plays correctly.

 

[skies]

Just for the whole Thuundurus-T vs. Thundurus-I discussion, I'm not asking for Thundurus-T to move up to S and Thundurus-I to move down to A+, I know it's mostly outclassed, but to say it's worse than stuff like Mega Banette and Blissey is just not true. Out of all of C- Rank, it's probably the move viable Pokemon in all of C-. I get that Thundurus outclasses it, as stated previously many times, but comparing Thundurus-T to other Pokemon in the C Ranks, it does shine there.

 

[Jacks0n]

The only reason I can see Thundy-T moving up is the fact it's under things like M-Banette which I don't really get. So I'm not sure if it's one of those cases where M-Banette should move down or Thundy-T should move up. Out of all the C- mons it sort of seems like Thundy-T doesn't really fit considering the fact it does pull off a decent nasty plot set and has access to other moves for coverage purposes to help the team it's on out. Yeah it's outclassed by it's original form overall no arguing that but I don't think it's as bad as people make it out to be compared to all the other C- mons.

It's better than them but almost
Completely eclipsed by thundy I, also if u use thundy t u can't use thundy I, C- is fine IMO

 

[Rotosect]

It's better than them but almost
Completely eclipsed by thundy I, also if u use thundy t u can't use thundy I, C- is fine IMO

As I mentioned Thundurus-T has a niche as the offensive electric type of choice for rain teams thanks to the critical Electric immunity it provides. It's not a big niche, but it's significant enough to be considered. There is nothing else in OU that can fit that role - Manectric is the closest one and even then as soon as it mega evolves it loses its immunity.
Water/Ground types are momentum killers, something you defnitely don't want in a rain team. I would go as far as saying that any self-respecting offensive rain team must carry Thundurus-T if they don't want to be destroyed by electric attacks.

 

[Jacks0n]

As I mentioned Thundurus-T has a niche as the offensive electric type of choice for rain teams thanks to the critical Electric immunity it provides. It's not a big niche, but it's significant enough to be considered. There is nothing else in OU that can fit that role - Manectric is the closest one and even then as soon as it mega evolves it loses its immunity.
Water/Ground types are momentum killers, something you defnitely don't want in a rain team. I would go as far as saying that any self-respecting offensive rain team must carry Thundurus-T if they don't want to be destroyed by electric attacks.

Because you now, people don't use Mamoswine or chomp or anything on rain teams.

 

[Ropeburn]

I'd also like to point out that Thundurus-T runs a very viable Scarf set. I definitely think that thundurus deserves to move up, since it doesn't really belong with stuff like Blissey, etc.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Not objecting to your nomination, but I feel I should point out that Mega Mawile can actually live any hit at full health, even from the Specs set, and 2HKO it with a Fire Fang and Sucker Punch combo. Also, Magnezone can't just switch into Mega Mawile, otherwise Magnezone risks giving her the chance to OHKO with a Focus Punch or fire off a Fire Fang and safely finish it off with Sucker Punch.

tl;dr Mega Mawile can escape with her life if she has the right set and plays correctly.

Very true. I guess I was thinking after It was weakened. Still though, magnezone's trapping utility is criminally underrated at this point.

 

[Red Cat]

I don't think Thundurus-T should be moved up. In a vacuum, it is probably better than most C- Pokemon, but you could probably make the same argument about Florges. Florges is not terrible in OU, its problem is that it is almost completely outclassed by Sylveon. Thundurus-T is in the same boat, although it has some small niches over Thundurus I. Still, I think that Thundurus-T should stay in C- because of the immense competition it faces for its roles. Most of the C rank Pokemon are not directly outclassed in their roles in the way Thundy-T is.

 

[Rotosect]

Now that the Deoxys formes have been banned I believe Froslass needs to move up since she's an effective lead with Spikes, D.Bond, Taunt and Ice Beam (which can 2HKO many common defoggers such as Latios and Zapdos). I would say C rank is appropriate.

I don't think Thundurus-T should be moved up. In a vacuum, it is probably better than most C- Pokemon, but you could probably make the same argument about Florges. Florges is not terrible in OU, its problem is that it is almost completely outclassed by Sylveon. Thundurus-T is in the same boat, although it has some small niches over Thundurus I. Still, I think that Thundurus-T should stay in C- because of the immense competition it faces for its roles. Most of the C rank Pokemon are not directly outclassed in their roles in the way Thundy-T is.

Except Florges has no niche whatsoever over Sylveon, while Thundurus-T's niche over its Incarnate form has already been discussed.

 

[114]

Zygarde. Can we discuss this beast?

Notable moves (attacking): earth quake, stone edge, extreme speed, dragon claw
Notable moves (support): substitute, coil, dragon dance, glare

Zygarde is pretty bulky and with substitute can be a set up late game sweeper with e-speed/eq/sub/coil, or an early game wall breaker with eq/stone edge/coil/sub

Or you can run all out attacking DD with e-speed instead of sub, though IMHO I think coil is where it's at. The level of physical bulk it reaches is actually ridiculous.

Very underrated, and you can also run a glare set - somewhat gimmicky but effective especially in its surprise factor.

Zygarde is a versatile and underrated pokemon that makes serious dents in teams through both its set up ability, good attack coverage, usage of e-speed, amazing bulk, and general surprise factor against the meta, which is unprepared for it.

---------------
On thundurus-T, let's not forget that with assault vest it is an amazing pivot that can check/counter ALL bolt/beam attackers, while still affording team momentum. It also has access to knock off, which is amazing for a pivot. C-? Ridiculous. B- minimum.... it's a better wall breaker, has a more useful ability, and can opt for a AV offensive pivot set.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

Thundurus has three niches to use over Thundurus.
-Having the ability Volt basorb.
-Having a viable Scarf set.
-Doing better against stall thanks to his higher SpA,
-Being a check of Thundurus-I (thanks to the ability Volt Absorb)

 

[TFL]

Zygarde. Can we discuss this beast?

Notable moves (attacking): earth quake, stone edge, extreme speed, dragon claw
Notable moves (support): substitute, coil, dragon dance, glare

Zygarde is pretty bulky and with substitute can be a set up late game sweeper with e-speed/eq/sub/coil, or an early game wall breaker with eq/stone edge/coil/sub

Or you can run all out attacking DD with e-speed instead of sub, though IMHO I think coil is where it's at. The level of physical bulk it reaches is actually ridiculous.

Very underrated, and you can also run a glare set - somewhat gimmicky but effective especially in its surprise factor.

Zygarde is a versatile and underrated pokemon that makes serious dents in teams through both its set up ability, good attack coverage, usage of e-speed, amazing bulk, and general surprise factor against the meta, which is unprepared for it.

---------------
On thundurus-T, let's not forget that with assault vest it is an amazing pivot that can check/counter ALL bolt/beam attackers, while still affording team momentum. It also has access to knock off, which is amazing for a pivot. C-? Ridiculous. B- minimum.... it's a better wall breaker, has a more useful ability, and can opt for a AV offensive pivot set.

Talk about Zygarde? Sure. It's a worse Garchomp that is lackluster and incapable of sweeping the meta with a Dragon Dance set, at least DDnite has Multiscale and more coverage options to make sweeping a bit easier. Its SubCoil set can't sweep and is straight bad against all team archetypes. There's no real reason to use it, don't see why Zygarde isn't in D rank.

Also, Zygarde doesn't get Dragon Claw, it's stuck getting locked into Outrage and revenged.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Talk about Zygarde? Sure. It's a worse Garchomp that is lackluster and incapable of sweeping the meta with a Dragon Dance set, at least DDnite has Multiscale and more coverage options to make sweeping a bit easier. Its SubCoil set can't sweep and is straight bad against all team archetypes. There's no real reason to use it, don't see why Zygarde isn't in D rank.

Also, Zygarde doesn't get Dragon Claw, it's stuck getting locked into Outrage and revenged.

Have you ever used a slow calm mind sweeper before? It's the exact same thing, but physical. Also, Zygarde's bulk and access to coil, glare, dd, and espeed make garchomp jealous.

 

[TFL]

Have you ever used a slow calm mind sweeper before? It's the exact same thing, but physical. Also, Zygarde's bulk and access to coil, glare, dd, and espeed make garchomp jealous.

Yes. In fact, my main team uses two of them: Suicune and Clefable. The difference with Zygarde is that its typing is weak to Dragon, which are generally high powered attacks. It's also double weak to Ice, a weakness that cannot be patched up by EVs or boosts, and it has many counters because of its typing and weak movepool.

With Suicune and (to a lesser extent) Clefable's typing, their checks and counters go down the drain with each boost. Zygarde's does not. It could have 6 Coils under its belt and one can simply bring in Latios, Greninja, or whatever and KO it. If it has ESpeed, well.. it's not like they'll realistically get that many boosts, your mon is going to be able to take it at +1 or 2 and KO in return (Zygarde only has base 100 atk). Good luck killing Suicune without losing a sizable chunk of your team (that would result in your loss) if you've given it a free boost or two. That's the difference.

About Glare, I don't see how Paralyzing Ground types makes a less than mediocre mon worth it.

If ya really want to use Zygarde then you're best off waiting for Thousand Arrows to become a thing, because that'd actually make this mon pretty good and separate it from the other OU Dragons.

 

[dwarfstar]

Talk about Zygarde? Sure. It's a worse Garchomp that is lackluster and incapable of sweeping the meta with a Dragon Dance set, at least DDnite has Multiscale and more coverage options to make sweeping a bit easier. Its SubCoil set can't sweep and is straight bad against all team archetypes. There's no real reason to use it, don't see why Zygarde isn't in D rank.

Also, Zygarde doesn't get Dragon Claw, it's stuck getting locked into Outrage and revenged.

Yeah, your analysis is pretty much completely wrong. Calling it a worse Garchomp makes no sense because they play completely different roles; all they share is typing. That's like saying Breloom is worse than Chesnaught because it can't tank hits and they're both Grass/Fighting. Dragon Dance sets are largely outclassed by Dragonite, it's true, but Zygarde has niches that other Dragons either don't fill as well (parashuffler) or don't fill at all (bulky Coil sweeper). Saying it's bad against all team archetypes is factually incorrect; SubCoil is a pain for stall once their phazers and Unaware 'mons have been removed and can fare decently against bulky offense. You're also assuming that it has to run Dragon STAB, which is a bad idea on SubCoil - the bulky sweeper should be running Earthquake, Stone Edge, Substitute, and Coil. Rest can replace either Stone Edge or Substitute if you like, and Extreme Speed is also an option. No one who knows what they're talking about is suggesting Outrage on that set.

In conclusion, you have no idea what you're talking about. Zygarde is not outclassed and does not perform badly overall.

 

[Anduril]

Why is Kabutops B+? Doesn't Excadrill outclass it as an offensive spinner with better defensive typing? Although the rain nerf allows swift swim + drizzle use I can't see why you wouldn't just use Excadrill

 

[dwarfstar]

ForumBeta You'd only use it on a rain team, and its primary role is that of a sweeper; it just has the capability of acting as a spinner as well for that rain team if the player wants to use it like that.

 

[Clone]

Why is Kabutops B+? Doesn't Excadrill outclass it as an offensive spinner with better defensive typing? Although the rain nerf allows swift swim + drizzle use I can't see why you wouldn't just use Excadrill

rain is a thing. And he doesn't spin either.

 

[Hclegend]

Why is Kabutops B+? Doesn't Excadrill outclass it as an offensive spinner with better defensive typing? Although the rain nerf allows swift swim + drizzle use I can't see why you wouldn't just use Excadrill

Have you used Kabutops? It's freakin brutal in rain. Seriously, I ran a Rain team and I was seriously suprised at how well it can sweep in rain. It's mainly there for Rain, because Rain still has a small niche in OU.
And yes, it's outclassed as a spinner, but Exca and Kabu have different roles entirely.
(It's like the Zygarde/Garchomp comparison, they look similar on first glance, but they serve different roles entirely)
Edit: Greninjad to the max. Still, more detail ^_^

 

[Mood4food77]

kabutops has STAB waterfall in the rain behind a base 120 attack, swords dance and access to swift swim

it also hard counters talonflame (well...those without will-o-wisp)

EDIT:

'd

 

[Anduril]

kabutops has STAB waterfall in the rain behind a base 120 attack, swords dance and access to swift swim

it also hard counters talonflame (well...those without will-o-wisp)

EDIT:

'd

Having never used a rain team, I'll concede. Sand for days

 

[TFL]

Yeah, your analysis is pretty much completely wrong. Calling it a worse Garchomp makes no sense because they play completely different roles; all they share is typing. That's like saying Breloom is worse than Chesnaught because it can't tank hits and they're both Grass/Fighting. Dragon Dance sets are largely outclassed by Dragonite, it's true, but Zygarde has niches that other Dragons either don't fill as well (parashuffler) or don't fill at all (bulky Coil sweeper). Saying it's bad against all team archetypes is factually incorrect; SubCoil is a pain for stall once their phazers have been removed and can fare decently against bulky offense. You're also assuming that it has to run Dragon STAB, which is a bad idea on SubCoil - the bulky sweeper should be running Earthquake, Stone Edge, Substitute, and Coil. Rest can replace either Stone Edge or Substitute if you like, and Extreme Speed is also an option. No one who knows what they're talking about is suggesting Outrage on that set.

In conclusion, you have no idea what you're talking about. Zygarde is not outclassed and does not perform badly overall.

"Yeah, your analysis is pretty much completely wrong. Calling it a worse Garchomp makes no sense because they play completely different roles; all they share is typing."

You're right, they have different roles, but the difference is that Zygarde's roles are trash. Or it is, rather. Garchomp is not.

"SubCoil is a pain for stall once their phazers have been removed and can fare decently against bulky offense."

Yeah, anything is a pain when you have no counters for it left. Stall's got Slowbro, Skarmory, Clefable, Quagsire, Chesnaught, whatever. How the heck are you even supposed to remove these Pokemon in the first place? And no, it isn't good against bulky offense. A few teams, sure, but the majority? No.

"No one who knows what they're talking about is suggesting Outrage on that set."

I was obviously referring to the DDance set when I mentioned Outrage.

Your post was pretty misinformed in general and who are you to say I don't know what I'm talking about with Zygarde? I've used it plenty and have won several tour matches with it, but even I can admit it doesn't have enough merit to be worth the team slot.

Edit: It's hardly a debate, ForumBeta, some people don't like the idea that their third-legend isn't actually good. I won't even bother to argue it further than this post, some people just can't be reasoned with.

 

[Halcyon.]

I can't believe that Thundurus-T is in C- under shit like Mega Banette, Gourgeist, Seismitoad, Mega Houndoom, TANGROWTH (I have legit never seen a Tangrowth ever used in OU), Exploud, Venomoth, and other complete garbage Pokemon. Like have any of you even used Thundurus-T? There are two sets I have seen people use effectively: Double Dance and Agility. I built an Agility Thundurus-T team for WCOP and tested it against a few friends including Leftiez and Subject 18 and it did just fine. It's basically the exact same as Agility Ampharos but with more speed and power and less bulk (but it gets healed by switching into Thundurus instead of just resisting it). Getting up an Agility against teams isn't even that hard when you force out stuff like Ferrothorn, Gyarados, Dragonite, Landorus-T, and even big boy Thundurus. With an Agility boost it clean sweeps a lot of offensive teams unless they have multiple forms of priority (does poorly against things like Banded Dnite+Talon teams), but yeah of course it's not perfect, if it were it would be S rank. But to say it isn't at least as viable as Sharpedo or Zygarde is insane. Thundurus-T is honestly not that bad of a Pokemon. I also know Ben Gay used it WCOP too, but still have yet to see a Tangrowth team make it to the tour level...huh.

 

[Aragorn the King]

I can't believe that Thundurus-T is in C- under shit like Mega Banette, Gourgeist, Seismitoad, Mega Houndoom, TANGROWTH (I have legit never seen a Tangrowth ever used in OU), Exploud, Venomoth, and other complete garbage Pokemon. Like have any of you even used Thundurus-T? There are two sets I have seen people use effectively: Double Dance and Agility. I built an Agility Thundurus-T team for WCOP and tested it against a few friends including Leftiez and Subject 18 and it did just fine. It's basically the exact same as Agility Ampharos but with more speed and power and less bulk (but it gets healed by switching into Thundurus instead of just resisting it). Getting up an Agility against teams isn't even that hard when you force out stuff like Ferrothorn, Gyarados, Dragonite, Landorus-T, and even big boy Thundurus. With an Agility boost it clean sweeps a lot of offensive teams unless they have multiple forms of priority (does poorly against things like Banded Dnite+Talon teams), but yeah of course it's not perfect, if it were it would be S rank. But to say it isn't at least as viable as Sharpedo or Zygarde is insane. Thundurus-T is honestly not that bad of a Pokemon. I also know Ben Gay used it WCOP too, but still have yet to see a Tangrowth team make it to the tour level...huh.

No one thinks it's a bad Pokemon, and I'm sure everyone would say it's a better standalone Pokemon than everything the the C ranks, barring maybe Togekiss. Its problem lies in that there is another option, Thundurus-I, that is pretty much always superior. It's very similar to Blissey and Florges, in that it isn't bad by any means, but why use it when something better exists? The answer is situational and otherwise small advantages. Florges only has two, higher Speed and a Grass move, over Sylveon, so it remain unranked. Blissey is harder to wear down than Chansey thanks to Leftovers covering hazard and weather damage. Therefore it's earned the C rank. Pokemon that fall in the C rank are either relatively bad or outclassed, and Thundurus-T is generally the latter. Thundurus-T has two abilities, both of which are better than Thundurus-I's and a much better Speed tier. It's really hard to make up losing 10 Speed and the amazing utility Prankster and Defiant provide. Thundurus-T can do both of the sets you mentioned well. However, its flaw isn't in what it does, it's what it can't do. When you use it, you're giving up 111 Speed and Prankster Taunt and Prankster Thunder Wave. I agree, not every team needs those things, but it's really hard to pass up using Thundurus-I on an offensive team. Really hard. However, when you look at what it can do, you can see it's actually better than Blissey. Agility + Double Dance are both solid sets that handle offense and defense, respectively, relatively flawlessly. Its only flaw is that you can't use Thundurus-I too. It's certainly as good as everything in the C rank and at least on par with the Pokemon in C+. It really should be moved up.

Sorry halc for sounding weird and probably making you say "tell me something I don't know." At first I was planning to disagree with you, after you called Tangrowth, Seismitoed, Banette, Venomoth, and Exploud garbage (seriously they aren't -_-). But, I ended up agreeing with you. Thundy-T outclassed, for the most part, but it's less outclassed than Blissey. Tbh I think Blissey is worse than everything on the list, but no one would ever agree to dropping it -_-