Yeah but over-centralizing is a natural thing in this game. Aren't Scizor+Rotom-W over-centralized in BW? Dragons? Scizor was first in usage due to volturn + Drag resistance + BPunch rkill. As well aren't weathers overcentralizing? Did someone ever thought about dragon nerd in BW even if MonoDragons could actually work? Try to talk about a ban of weathers in BW here and you will get shut up, though it's the same point or worse. Comin back on Aegi, as I already said, it got a plethora of mon that can check or counter at least two sets of Aegi. (Mixed stuff is always existed so "unpredictability" is not a really good argument considering Aegi's moveset is reduced to THREE moves, and stuff like Fire Blast/Ice Beam Dragonite usually kill its counter by itself even if that's p unusual). The fact Aegi gotta Stance to keep itself alive can let opponent have an advantage (typical 50/50 and something else). Plus it's only 60 base speed com'on..
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np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition
- Thread starter gr8astard
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Yes, but who wants to take a shadow ball or a sacred sword to the face while doing it?
The answer is Mandibuzz, but if the the sword dance set is half as popular as people say, even that will have to fear a head smash.
Scizor + Rotom-W is two Pokemon. Dragons are multiple Pokemon. Weather was, again, multiple Pokemon. Aegislash is one Pokemon, doing what at the very least, by your example, at least two Pokemon do. As I've said before, the fact that Aegislash is a single Pokemon doing multiple Pokemon's worth of tier impact is unhealthy.
Yes, yes... to an extent... But whether or not a stall team has aegislash does not take away from the fact that stall teams indirectly use aegislash. His benefit to make a lot of stall breakers irrelevant has allowed many stall teams to take different directions instead of devoting tons of mons just to stop these stall breakers. Stall just isn't always happy with the lack of recovery.
About this Aegislash keeping stall breakers in check argument…I've said it before that two of the three megas being listed (Heracross and Medicham) are kept in check by Talonflame--another massively centralizing threat. People PLEASE stop making this argument.
The same can be said about Talonflame in the same vein. Stall teams indirectly use all of the centralizing forces of the meta, though, because they're built around the premise of countering it.
I will start infracting people that continue to post saying they want Aegislash OU because it keeps things in check. Its not an acceptable argument, people have discussed WHY its not an acceptable argument for half the thread, and its now derailing the thread. You have all been warned.
Kinda confused on to why it wasn't done way earlier as nothing about it has changed since It was released. It has always been versatile, amazing at defense and offence, and with an amazing typing. Just as over centralizing or even more so then genesect was. I guess Its better late then never though. Definetly ban worthy as it by itself just limits a ton of pokemon by just existing, and being used on many teams. It can be handled yes, but you sorta have to take a few blows to discover how to handle it based on the set its running. It has a bit of 4mss but really its not that bad. I'd like to see how the meta changes if the sword goes uber as some pokemons' chains will have been broken like Megas Heracross and medicham would be cool to see more of.
5/6 moves you run against Aegislash are STAB. Most players would not use Aegislash against Conkeldurr since it can take Shadow Ball and can hit it back slower, but a successful King's Shield against it would reduce the usefulness of Conkeldurr until it is switched out.
Prediction is symmetrical. Conkeldurr still takes 36%-42% if you "waste" a turn using King's Shield. (This still allows it to take an Earthquake from Adamant Landorus-T or Excadrill but not one with Life Orb) You opponent should be aware that you can do this too, and switch into something that can take a fighting move on the next turn; it is not like it is a unique insight that you can waste a turn by doing that. Or they can King's Shield now. There is still some pressure for Conkeldurr to attack with Knock Off or else it will get off a free Shadow Ball.
The argument of the no-ban camp you need to counter is not that Aegislash keeps broken threats in check, but that it keeps offensive threats in check, threats that would make the metagame more offensive based, such as Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham, Mega Gardevoir, Terrakion, and Lucario. And even if Aegislash's defensive uses are not appreciated a lot by stall because stall doesn't commonly use Aegislash, defensive cores do use Aegislash and appreciate its presence on the metagame, and defensive cores are used on lots of kind of teams.
Also, you can't make any assumptions about what will and what won't be banned, as you don't have any evidence to back it up. Not to mention that as i said, Aegislash's presence is a boon to cores that rely on defensive synergy in general, not stall, which doesn't use Aegislash frequently anyway.
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you have 3 ground types and a special fire type, what did you expect? Aegislash isn't not broken because "oml it has weaknesses", all pokemon except the mighty eelektross do. You're completely missing the point.
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somebody was arguing for a ban by saying they had to specifically run suboptimal movesets on their pokemon just for aegislash alone. i was just giving an example of how that is a terrible reason for considering it broken because the fact is that it is weak to common attacking types which favors the anti-ban side. I am just refuting a bad argument in favor of banning aegislash which was was off point. there are decent arguements for banning it but supposedly being forced to run suboptimal move sets is not one of them
No I believe the point that was being made is that if those SE attacks are STAB, then pokemon are going to be using those STABs regardless of Aegislash. Your team carries
EDIT: Conk isn't stab but 97.5 BP move is still pretty powerful, although KS mindgames could end up biting you in the butt where Aegis decides not to KS and attacks while you use Drain Punch
EDIT#2: Forgot Aegislash, although speed-ties could be a problem depending on who goes first
I've heard good arguments from both sides, but I'm more leaning to support banning. I dunno stuff like talonflame and SR may be somewhat centralizing but talonflame is frailer than wet toilet paper and rocks haven't shaped the meta to the extent aegislash has (sorry articuno).
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True. But would foul play ohko from the SD boost? If king shield predicted, then would that not make foul play guarantee Ohko? I am looking from the point of view of if Aegi really fits in uber. It feels like Salamence and Garchomp from past gen. Like I see that they are good, but thaaaaaat good? Its main uber set is mainly Sp.def heavy.
While I think Aegislash serves as too good of a pivot, arguments that Aegislash is centralizing because it forces things like Pinsir and Terrakion to run Earthquake are absurd. Aegislash is only responsible because of its viability in OU and by mere virtue of its typing and sufficient bulk. If another Steel/Ghost were to exist in OU, say Kitsunoh from CAP, these sweepers would have more of a reason to use "suboptimal" coverage in Earthquake. It is like saying Salamence is forced to run Earthquake because Heatran exists to wall Dragon/Fire. Aegislash's centralizing force comes primarily from its typing, not unlike Skarmory or Heatran.
I've played about a 100 battles on the suspect ladder, so I feel I have a pretty informed opinion on what people are running. For the record, I ran a stall team (Chans/Tini/Zap/Amoonguss/Mola/Heracross) and bird spam (Pinsir/Tflame/Latios/Landy-T/Keldeo/Thundy).
Mega Heracross
This thing, my god. The first and obvious thing is that offensive teams don't struggle with Heracross most of the time. The extra birdspam on the ladder is indicative of this. But all it really needs is a single turn to demolish anything. The only switch-in that offensive teams have in an Aegislash-less meta is Landorus-T. Lando-T has that main problem of being worn down by hazards alongside a lack of reliable recovery. Second, Lando-T has some serious opportunity costs to "walling" M-Heracross: if you choose to use a full defensive spread (only 4HKOd), you can only 3HKO M-Heracross at best and you don't outspeed, which means you can actually lose if you a) miss, b) switch-in, c) set up stealth rocks instead of attacking. Oh, the worst is that Heracross has the bulk to switch in on Lando-T instead and then threaten with a 2/3HKO or just OHKO something else on your team. Gligar and Weezing are garbage and I wouldn't suggest them for a serious team--Gliscor solidly walls him, actually. I think Talonflame + M-Heracross + Landorus-T could be an interesting offensive core that like regular birdspam, wears down its counters over time. Anywho, when it comes to moves we all know that M-Heracross was forced to run EQ. Well, now, it can run Close Combat / Bullet Seed / Rock Blast / Pin Missile and my god, ladies and gentlemen, that is the stuff that makes you shit your pants. Skarm gets 2HKO'd. Hippo gets wrecked. I think only twice that I ran into M-Heracross did I win. The only foreseeable way stall could beat this thing is Scarf Gothitelle, which loses to Sub. Also everything loses to SD, which no longer needs Bisharp's Pursuit support to be successful. It's honestly strange how a small change in coverage can be such a big deal. And yeah, a lot of things can RK M-Heracross but he has the bulk to survive Specs Keldeo's Scald if you EV it right and Pinsir/Talonflame are easy to account for imo. Granted, Latios, and anything remotely fast can still destroy you, but M-Heracross just screws up stall so much while not being worthless against Offense like Gothitelle, that the opportunity cost is minimal.
Mega Medicham
Mega Medicham is obviously more prevalent on the suspect ladder, but it now has more varied options in what it can run. I've seen some people stick to the HJK / Psycho Cut / Fire Punch formula even though there aren't many benefits to it. Skarmory still gets screwed over by HJK, so yeah, not sure why people are running it. I've seen a lot of people run HJK / PC / Ice Punch instead, alongside Drain Punch which screws over stalls bulkier walls. Oh, and to note to that: yeah, Mega Medicham completely screws over stall. Slowbro gets 2HKOd by Thunder Punch after rocks, which it can now afford to run; Mew gets screwd over by Substitute sets, which I've seen a lot of as well. Cresselia is...well Cresselia. Stalltini, which I ran, deals with it efficiently, but honestly, Stalltini is so underwhelming when it lacks reliable recovery and it, too, gets screwed by Substitute sets since it gets worn down really easily with HJK + SR + defense/speed drops from V-create. Otherwise, if you're opponent is dumb, you can burn it on the switch. M-Medicham might be weak but there aren't many dedicated walls that can 2HKO it when its gaining back health with Drain Punch. Sableye is a good counter / stallbreaker too here. One thing that I think will happen is that a lot more niche / lure sets are going to be developed. For example, Rock Tomb / Force Palm can work for a lot of its common offensive switch-ins (there aren't many) and then smash them with a super effective attack. A SubPunch set a la Mawile could work just because it forces so many switches. Some people might even run Bullet Punch in the last slot just to have that nice extra priority. I'm not saying those three sets are amazing, but the reason why they don't exist is because Aegislash exists and without the latter, you might start seeing the former. All of this being said, I haven't lost to anyone using Mega Medicham, I don't think, so its capabilities as a wallbreaker might be overrated.
Mega Gardevoir
Gardy is no less ridiculous towards stall than it was before, but with Aegislash out of the picture, it can be really hard to stop solely because of the coverage it can now afford to run. Specially defensive Heatran is still a solid counter...unless it has, you know, HP Ground or Focus Blast, which I have seen (and the reason I ditched Heatran). Stalltini deals with sets lacking Shadow Ball. Mega-Scizor is an exception revenge-killer: it can OHKO with BP, 2HKO with BP if burned, 2HKOd by HP Fire (which is pretty impressive imo). However, like with previous mons mentioned, Gardevoir can now run SubWisp, SubCM, and some really random shit like SubDestinyBond just to mess with Scizor (haven't tested that one out, don't get mad at me if it sucks). And of course, it can run Focus Blast > Shadow Ball, which hits much more things, including the aforemnetioned Heatran for the 2HKO. Sub + 3 Attacks is definitely more effective in this ladder. It breaks stall even better than Mega Medicham and Mega Heracross by far and can't be statused or walled by much. I can definitely see Stall running M-Scizor a lot more just to deal with Gardevoir -- this isn't a bad thing though, since M-Scizor is a solid defensive Pokemon that's been strangely neglected. If you lack M-Scizor and your opponent is competent, you're stall team will lose to M-Gardevoir.
BirdSpam
Ah, Birdspam HO. I actually want to address one thing first: the fact that Aegislash is no longer in the tier means that you can Staraptor, whoses STABs + Close Combat are not easily resisted. He's slightly harder to RK, doesn't require a mega slot, and has a stronger STAB combo with no Aegi to ruin it. Hawlucha, another Pokemon locked away in BL, gets a chance to shine with a menagerie of sets, including SD, SubSD, SubLiechi, etc, all of which do really well against HO because it's so hard to RK this thing after the Unburden boost. Nothing Scarfed that I can think of outspeeds it. Excadrill in the sand doesn't outspeed it. Kabutops in the rain doesn't outspeed it. It's only revenge-killable by our bravest bird. Hawlucha still has problems, like being unable to break things before a boost, having to rely on Unburden (although its speed stat is amazing, don't get me wrong), and still being walled by Zapdos. Finally, Pinsir gets Close Combat over EQ, which means it can OHKO T-Tar with ease, 2HKO Skarmory, and just in general have its STABs walled by fewer things. Stall can no longer rely on Skarm to wall it -- I actually switched to Zapdos to deal with it -- it's one good thing though that M-Pinsir still has checks and counters of sorts, it's just that that pool has decreased somewhat.
One Pokemon that I haven't addressed directly (but you're seeing the pattern) is Talonflame. All of these threats are revenge-killed by Talonflame. Does it even need to be said that the metagame will centralize towards Talonflame? Is this inherently a bad thing? I'm not sure. For one thing, it means that the power of all these threats (except Birdspam) is for the most part overrated. Most teams build with a Talonflame check in mind anyway and there are enough to go around.
I'm not certain how I'll vote. But this is what I've observed in the metagame.
And yes, stall is still viable.
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Mega Heracross can be dealt with by Clefable and gliscor
Sub set doesn't really beat mew, it still avoids 2hko and can breaks subs with psychic, not sure what the problem is.
Mega Gard is admitting a huge problem, but has been even pre-aegis. Chansey can still at least somewhat teal with it, same with heatran, mega scizor.
Birdspam still easy enough to check counter even without aegis imo.
Overcentralization is NOT natural. Pretty sure DPP and ADV are not overcentralized around anything. BW is overcentralized around weathers (Dragons n) because of a popular opinion that we didn't ban enough, though not around Scizor/Rotom-W core o_O. Scizor was #1 in usage because it was spammed by noobs on the ladder. It was #9 in WCOP prelims, and Jirachi is the best mon in the tier.
Off that tangent 4MSS is honestly pretty irrelevant, because Aegi can tailor itself to its team's needs, for basically no loss in effectiveness, that is impossible to figure out until your check is fine or it just got popped because you lost the guessing game. reyscarface made a really good post on this in the Deos suspect thread that's definitely linked in this thread somewhere. Just because a Pokemon can't run all its options at once, does not then any less relevant. Mega Lucario can't run SD or NP on the same set, and it can't run all of its coverage moves, but it can tailor itself to fit what it wants to do/its team needs while still being absolutely insane to deal with, which is why it was banned. Aegi is not as bad as Mega Lucario of course, but the concept is the same except Aegislash is a million times more versatile.
The Speed argument is just grasping for straws. It has an ability that takes perfect advantage of its low Speed, and unlike many slower Pokemon is difficult to take down while still dishing out enormous amounts of damage.
Let me clarify something: Mandibuzz has to fear Flash Cannon, Toxic, AND Head Smash. It's far from a reliable answer; Aegi must be scouted thoroughly for it to do the job, which is much much easier said than done.
Many posts, including mine, have shown why the 'broken checks broken' argument to keep Aegi in OU is irrelevant, besides the fact that I highly doubt anything is broken in a non-Aegi meta, and that's a bridge to cross when we get there anyways. Let's say for the sake of argument that Pinsir and Gardevoir are broken post-Aegi ban (doubtful). It makes more sense to remove cancer (Aegislash) and these two, than to keep cancer and keep these two. It's just common sense. Aegislash is basically a godly band-aid for offensive teams that gives them a swap to so many threats. I can actually relate this to Genesect in both BW and XY. It was a perfect band-aid for offensive teams, providing enormous momentum and making numerous threats much easier to deal with, while being able to perform almost any role. After Genesect was banned, players had to account for these threats in different ways and build teams differently without this band-aid fix. An Aegislash ban is the same story. I also don't think it's a problem that offense doesn't have a reliable answer to so many threats, as the nature of offense is based around checks and momentum, not counters. Just because I have to make a sac to deal with Mega Medicham that got in on my Balloon Heatran or whatever, is not inherently bad. I should be playing to avoid this position, or use a less reliable swap that might get heavily weakened, but I can deal with Medicham, or bite the bullet and sac something that's not pulling its weight anymore to revenge kill it. It's not like offense has reliable Kyurem-B answers (though Aegi is a very good check), or did in BW. Offensive teams have always played around these titanic breakers, not generally with solid answers. Removing Aegi removes a band-aid fix, which is far from bad.
As for stall, there are two more things I have to say: team matchup and creative building. Team matchup has always been one of stall's major problems, as you can't especially in recent generations cover everything, so stall teams will naturally have bad matchups vs certain threats. A dedicated stallbreaker is a cost to offensive teams to improve their matchup against opposing offensive teams, especially when their Mega slot is forfeited. Mega Garchomp gives 0 shits about Aegislash and takes a gigantic shit on stall bar SDef Gliscor, Mandibuzz, Cresselia, and ways like Mew of crippling it. However, it's still not preferred even though a Sub set actually lets it put in some work vs opposing offense. The reasoning is simple; it's better to use another Mega that fares well against opposing offensive teams. If these Megas start seeing some more use, that adds more diversity from the monotonous Mega builds of the current metagame, and stall despite having poor matchups can deal with them. The presence of Aegislash does not change the fact that if I am not prepared, I will lose some matches at Team Preview assuming my opponent isn't retarded. It might increase the matches I have to face this problem, but then that's on me as a stall builder. This brings me to creative teambuilding. Stall can incorporate answers to these threats. Shifting a mold to deal with certain threats is not bad, and promotes diversity in teambuilding as opposed to the same old stall teams. This is a benefit for the metagame, not a detriment, as it reduces the centralization around a few copypasta teams.
To sum this up:
- Overcentralization is not inherent.
- 4MSS is not relevant to banning Aegislash.
- These stallbreaking Megas will not see that much more use, and if they present a problem can be banned, but that's not a reason to keep Aegislash.
- Stall can account for these threats, and if they have to shift their molds to do so that is fine.
- Keeping Aegislash as a band-aid for offensive teams is flawed and not a reason to keep it in the tier.
I have seen a lot of posts here saying that Aegislash helps stall, and as a stall player I believe that couldn't be any further from the truth. Jukain made some good points about why Aegislash does not help stall, but I want to expand on that. The purpose of stall is to counter as many offensive threats in OU as possible. As a stall player, I'm not thinking "Aegislash reduces the viability of Mega Medicham, Mega Heracross, and Mega Gardevoir so I don't have to give a shit about these things destroying my team." I'm thinking "I have to come up with an answer to Aegislash in addition to these stallbreakers." For those arguing that Aegislash helps stall by checking these threats, you're wrong. Slowbro, Cresselia, and Mew can check Mega Medicham, but guess what? They are all destroyed by Aegi. Physically defensive Gliscor and Clefable can stop Mega Medicham, but they get destroyed by Aegi too. Chansey and Mega Scizor can check Mega Gardevoir, but again they are not very good against Aegislash.
Aegislash just puts more pressure on stall by redirecting valuable teamslots on stall teams to stop it instead of these wallbreakers. For example, specially defensive Gliscor might be a good answer to Aegislash, but now it is getting creamed by Mega Heracross without that defensive investment. Specially defensive Amoongus can stop Aegi, but then Amoongus gets killed by a +6 Azumarill Play Rough. Specially defensive Zapdos stops Aegislash, but then it gets OHKOed by Mega Pinsir at +2 after SR. So, stall teams have to run inferior sets and spreads to beat Aegislash and that limits the ability for them to stop the other powerful wall-breakers.
So people, please stop saying that a very powerful special attacker which is immune to Toxic and shits on Chansey and specially defensive Fairies and Psychic types, which are usually the ones taking special attacks for stall, is helping stall. Aegislash just makes the meta more offensive by allowing offensive teams to use a wall-breaker which isn't totally shit on by offensive threats.
Aegislash just puts more pressure on stall by redirecting valuable teamslots on stall teams to stop it instead of these wallbreakers. For example, specially defensive Gliscor might be a good answer to Aegislash, but now it is getting creamed by Mega Heracross without that defensive investment. Specially defensive Amoongus can stop Aegi, but then Amoongus gets killed by a +6 Azumarill Play Rough. Specially defensive Zapdos stops Aegislash, but then it gets OHKOed by Mega Pinsir at +2 after SR. So, stall teams have to run inferior sets and spreads to beat Aegislash and that limits the ability for them to stop the other powerful wall-breakers.
So people, please stop saying that a very powerful special attacker which is immune to Toxic and shits on Chansey and specially defensive Fairies and Psychic types, which are usually the ones taking special attacks for stall, is helping stall. Aegislash just makes the meta more offensive by allowing offensive teams to use a wall-breaker which isn't totally shit on by offensive threats.
Primarily, like Jukain said, stall always has to tailor its team to account for the most common threats which can often mean being weak to other, lesser-used threats in the first place. Being weak to M-Gardevoir isn't really a huge deal when it doesn't appear enough to really ruin your ladder ranking. I've never seen anything but subtoxic Aegislash be a problem to stall and even then things like SpDef Gliscor completely wall it. Another point that I made was that no longer having to use Fire Punch specifically for Aegislash frees you up to use Ice Punch, which ruins Gliscor being a counter to that specific set. I fail to see how Chansey checks M-Gardevoir at all, especially if it has the liberty of running SubCM.
Specially Defensive Gliscor can still deal with Heracross relatively well. It only gets 3HKO'd assuming you don't protect or Roost, you're usually slower so can use Roost safely, and can still it out with toxic. SpDef Gliscor doesn't really lose against M-Heracross unless you make some severe choke. Mixed defensive Amoonguss handles both Aegislash (Foul Play) and BD Azumarill really well (Spore / Giga Drain). I do give you Zapdos as an example.
I honestly think you're seriously overstating Aegislash's performance against stall. Sure, you take risks by mispredicting the set, which is something you glossed over, but even then, stall has a strong tendency to carry multiple counters to various Aegislash sets (ie Mandy for standard, Gliscor/Venu/Amoonguss for SubToxic).
A likely final opinion having now achieved reqs. The test metagame on the suspect ladder was beautiful to me. I laddered using four different teams, all of which seemed quite capable of handling all of the megas suspected of becoming broken.
Aegislash's presence in OU was unique, and some of its qualities just put it over the edge for me in terms of brokenness and overcentralization. Aegi has a fantastically easy time switching in, due to a plethora of useful resistances and immunities. This ease of coming in, combined with the power and coverage to dent any switch-in seems the most broken aspect of this pokémon. After nailing switchins, King's Shield is there to scout, and possibly gain leftovers recovery. Now Aegislash is back in shield form with behemoth defenses and ready to take a hit if need be, or simply switch out and find its way back in easily later in the match. It doesn't sweep teams, but it puts huge holes in the opposing team which is just as valuable, if not more. The few walls who can shrug off a hit from Aegislash can be crippled with Toxic, as everyone knows. This can't all be accomplished on one set, but the fact that it has 3+ very viable sets can be seen as a boon to unpredictabilty.
Unless someone is able to come up with a thorough argument past all of these same rehashed ones, I'll be voting to ban the shield. I think it will be a great step towards a desirable metagame, and I'm quite excited to see how the vote turns out. It's sure to be close.
Aegislash's presence in OU was unique, and some of its qualities just put it over the edge for me in terms of brokenness and overcentralization. Aegi has a fantastically easy time switching in, due to a plethora of useful resistances and immunities. This ease of coming in, combined with the power and coverage to dent any switch-in seems the most broken aspect of this pokémon. After nailing switchins, King's Shield is there to scout, and possibly gain leftovers recovery. Now Aegislash is back in shield form with behemoth defenses and ready to take a hit if need be, or simply switch out and find its way back in easily later in the match. It doesn't sweep teams, but it puts huge holes in the opposing team which is just as valuable, if not more. The few walls who can shrug off a hit from Aegislash can be crippled with Toxic, as everyone knows. This can't all be accomplished on one set, but the fact that it has 3+ very viable sets can be seen as a boon to unpredictabilty.
Unless someone is able to come up with a thorough argument past all of these same rehashed ones, I'll be voting to ban the shield. I think it will be a great step towards a desirable metagame, and I'm quite excited to see how the vote turns out. It's sure to be close.
Kind of like the 50/50 of scizor either using pursuit or bullet punch on a gengar?
Specially Defensive Gliscor is OHKOed by a +2 Rock Blast after SR, so it can't deal with Heracross relatively well. It can Toxic Heracross before it dies, but Heracross will probably destroy at least half of your team before going down. Mixed defensive Amoongus can just barely handle both Aegislash and Azumarill. With anything less than max Defense with a Bold nature on Amoongus, it has a chance to die after SR to +6 Azumarill. Amoongus would prefer Aegi gone so it can go max defense and have more of a cushion against Azumarill and other threats like Breloom.
As for stall carrying multiple counters to Aegislash, doesn't that speak to how Aegislash is over-centralizing? One of the only reasons to use Mandibuzz over Skarmory is to stop Aegislash, and physically defensive Gliscor is better than specially defensive. The fact that these are considered "standard" on stall shows how much of a problem Aegislash is.
Not really, Scizor doesn't have a lot of risk pursuiting Gengar if it stays in unless it has something silly like hidden power fire. I know you're just going to come up with another better example (bullet punch or pursuit vs hp fire gengar?), but I'll say that Aegislash causes excessive 50/50s (simply the presence of King's Shield causes one more per turn compared to other pokemon), and I think we should take advantage of the chance to remove so many of them in one ban. And it's not just the fact that it causes 50/50s, it pushes an already great pokemon even farther over the edge.
If you haven't already, go read the post I linked to in the one you quoted. It has good points about the 50/50s that I didn't cover, I'll quote the part that is the point I'm trying to make here.
Well, if Game Freak didn't go nuts by giving Aegislash 150 / 150 offenses in Blade Form, we probably wouldn't be suspecting it. King's Shield is also a major issue which has been brought up more times than I can count in this thread. I would have loved to see a primarily defensive Ghost / Steel type in OU, but that is not what Aegislash is. The concept behind Aegislash is really cool, but unfortunately the Base Stats are too high for OU. In the end, it is the whole package of power, bulk, good typing both offensively and defensively, and King's Shield which makes Aegislash over-centralizing, and nothing else in OU compares to Aegislash in this way.
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