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No one thinks it's a bad Pokemon, and I'm sure everyone would say it's a better standalone Pokemon than everything the the C ranks, barring maybe Togekiss. Its problem lies in that there is another option, Thundurus-I, that is pretty much always superior. It's very similar to Blissey and Florges, in that it isn't bad by any means, but why use it when something better exists? The answer is situational and otherwise small advantages. Florges only has two, higher Speed and a Grass move, over Sylveon, so it remain unranked. Blissey is harder to wear down than Chansey thanks to Leftovers covering hazard and weather damage. Therefore it's earned the C rank. Pokemon that fall in the C rank are either relatively bad or outclassed, and Thundurus-T is generally the latter. Thundurus-T has two abilities, both of which are better than Thundurus-I's and a much better Speed tier. It's really hard to make up losing 10 Speed and the amazing utility Prankster and Defiant provide. Thundurus-T can do both of the sets you mentioned well. However, its flaw isn't in what it does, it's what it can't do. When you use it, you're giving up 111 Speed and Prankster Taunt and Prankster Thunder Wave. I agree, not every team needs those things, but it's really hard to pass up using Thundurus-I on an offensive team. Really hard. However, when you look at what it can do, you can see it's actually better than Blissey. Agility + Double Dance are both solid sets that handle offense and defense, respectively, relatively flawlessly. Its only flaw is that you can't use Thundurus-I too. It's certainly as good as everything in the C rank and at least on par with the Pokemon in C+. It really should be moved up.
Sorry halc for sounding weird and probably making you say "tell me something I don't know." At first I was planning to disagree with you, after you called Tangrowth, Seismitoed, Banette, Venomoth, and Exploud garbage (seriously they aren't -_-). But, I ended up agreeing with you. Thundy-T outclassed, for the most part, but it's less outclassed than Blissey. Tbh I think Blissey is worse than everything on the list, but no one would ever agree to dropping it -_-
I don't understand how you can say it's outclassed when I just gave two roles that it does better than Thundurus. Nasty Plot Agility is better than Thundurus because when you NP you have more power to actually beat stall (chansey can just stall out Thundurus, not so with Thundurus-T), and when you Agility, you have more immediate power than Thundurus would (although I never uses Agility anyway. Honestly Thundurus and Thundurus-T play completely differently, and I CERTAINLY think it plays better than the Pokemon I brought up. There is little reason Thundurus-T should be in the bottom rank when there are clearly worse Pokemon above it and it has roles that separate it from the only Pokemon you can't use with it.
I don't understand how you can say it's outclassed when I just gave two roles that it does better than Thundurus. Nasty Plot Agility is better than Thundurus because when you NP you have more power to actually beat stall (chansey can just stall out Thundurus, not so with Thundurus-T), and when you Agility, you have more immediate power than Thundurus would (although I never uses Agility anyway. Honestly Thundurus and Thundurus-T play completely differently, and I CERTAINLY think it plays better than the Pokemon I brought up. There is little reason Thundurus-T should be in the bottom rank when there are clearly worse Pokemon above it and it has roles that separate it from the only Pokemon you can't use with it.
Okay, we agree, so no real need to continue arguing :P
But just to clarify, when I say outclassed, I mean more opportunity cost than actually having something 100% being better. But maybe I'm using the wrong term. I mean, most offensive teams would rather have a Stall Check, Offense Check, and a fast Special attacker in one (Thundurus-I) rather than something that only shines vs. one type of team. Thundy-T isn't bad, it's just that Thundy-I's support is much more necessary for most teams. Despite this, it still can be used well, and is a good Pokemon, just looking at stats. Something like that deserves C+ in my eyes, and I think you agree... unless you're proposing B- or higher.
Also, the C rank I think will always be confusing; by nature it has to be Pokemon that either are generally bad, are good but outclassed, or are good but represent opportunity lost. It's natural to have something good but representing opportunity lost below something generally bad if the latter has an actual niche. That's how I can justify Blissey being lower than Starmie. Thundy-T deserves better than C-, but I think it's wrong saying it isn't partially outclassed and hard to fit on teams that would rather Thundurus-I.
I think c+ would be fine for thunderus T, yes it's outclassed, but it's frankly still a great poke, so while it's still outclassed( in most aspects), it's still good.
It's cousin landorus-T on the other hand, might need to get dropped a little. It has a same issue as thundy, in that you cant use as superb other form, which has higher speed, can attack from both sides, and gets a free life orb boost, along with zero life orb recoil.
It also faces competition from gliscor who has: 1. immunity to status. 2. higher speed. 3. Takes knock off better, given toxic orb activates. 4. Actual bulk, that isnt changed by the opponent switching.
I think c+ would be fine for thunderus T, yes it's outclassed, but it's frankly still a great poke, so while it's still outclassed( in most aspects), it's still good.
It's cousin landorus-T on the other hand, might need to get dropped a little. It has a same issue as thundy, in that you cant use as superb other form, which has higher speed, can attack from both sides, and gets a free life orb boost, along with zero life orb recoil.
It also faces competition from gliscor who has: 1. immunity to status. 2. higher speed. 3. Takes knock off better, given toxic orb activates. 4. Actual bulk, that isnt changed by the opponent switching.
so Knock Off Defiant Thundurus-I can't beat Stall?
Besides that is beating stall such a significantly relevant role when you look at all the other powerful stallbreakers we have already?
Thundurus-T is fine in C-...only a few Pokemon in there aren't fine in C- and I already mentioned one of them and the other one would most likely be Guardevoir.
Why is Kabutops B+? Doesn't Excadrill outclass it as an offensive spinner with better defensive typing? Although the rain nerf allows swift swim + drizzle use I can't see why you wouldn't just use Excadrill
ForumBeta You'd only use it on a rain team, and its primary role is that of a sweeper; it just has the capability of acting as a spinner as well for that rain team if the player wants to use it like that.
Kabutops is a B+ rank pokemon that never sees usage outside rain. Thundurus-T is the perfect Electric-type sweeper and immunity for rain teams yet people are so adamant against promoting it because Thundy-I exists. I don't know about you guys but I never see Thundurus-I in rain teams. The arguments are on the previous page so I won't reiterate them; the point is that if Kabutops is B+ because of rain alone, it's just crazy to keep Thundy-T down in C-.
It's funny how people are arguing against Thundy-T's viability and on this very same page we have this:
Kabutops is a B+ rank pokemon that never sees usage outside rain. Thundurus-T is the perfect Electric-type sweeper and immunity for rain teams yet people are so adamant against promoting it because Thundy-I exists. I don't know about you guys but I never see Thundurus-I in rain teams. The arguments are on the previous page so I won't reiterate them; the point is that if Kabutops is B+ because of rain alone, it's just crazy to keep Thundy-T down in C-.
Thundurus-T doesn't face competition from Raikou, but from Thundurus-I, as stated before. Thundurus-T performs the role of a lethally powerful special sweeper/wallbreaker, while Raikou is overall a niche utility Pokémon that's outperformed by Zapdos and Mega Manectric. Besides, Volt Absorb Raikou is still unreleased, so your statement is false.
Kabutops is a B+ rank pokemon that never sees usage outside rain. Thundurus-T is the perfect Electric-type sweeper and immunity for rain teams yet people are so adamant against promoting it because Thundy-I exists. I don't know about you guys but I never see Thundurus-I in rain teams. The arguments are on the previous page so I won't reiterate them; the point is that if Kabutops is B+ because of rain alone, it's just crazy to keep Thundy-T down in C-.
Thundurus-I actually does have a niche in rain teams and a significant one at that: prankster Rain Dance. The combination of Prankster Rain Dance + Thunder is really useful for rain teams, so I'm not sure where you get the idea that Thundurus-I would never be seen on a rain team. (Torn-I fulfills a similar role to an extent and Torn-T can as well). I do think an electric immunity is important, but you already get a resist in Ludicolo / Megaman (or Seismetoad if you're weird). Although I agree with Thundy-T being moved up because it's still really good, I don't think it's the "perfect Electric-type sweeper" for rain teams.
Just for the whole Thuundurus-T vs. Thundurus-I discussion, I'm not asking for Thundurus-T to move up to S and Thundurus-I to move down to A+, I know it's mostly outclassed, but to say it's worse than stuff like Mega Banette and Blissey is just not true. Out of all of C- Rank, it's probably the move viable Pokemon in all of C-. I get that Thundurus outclasses it, as stated previously many times, but comparing Thundurus-T to other Pokemon in the C Ranks, it does shine there.
I also agree with this statement. Thundurus-T is out classed compared to Thundurus-I, in it's own physical traits. But that is not the only thing that makes a pokemon more viable. Here's a good scenario on how well Thundurus-T benefits other pokemon.
So you've setup a dance with your mega dos right? The opponent switches in Thundurus-I on the same turn. What is the opponents first train off thought at this point. "Oh no, if I don't cripple this poke, it could possibly sweep my team!" So what do they do? In most cases they try to t-wave right away. Thundy-T comes in on SR and regains its hp back. you either setup an agility/nasty plot, or suprise them with a scarfed hp ice. Thundy-I down. Same scenario with LO greninja WP Dragonite, etc.
Now please don't get me wrong, competitively, Thundy-I is better than Thundy-T, but putting it with the likes of M-Banette, Tangorowth, Krokodile, and Roserade?! I just think it could do much better in terms of rank.
Thundurus-T doesn't face competition from Raikou, but from Thundurus-I, as stated before. Thundurus-T performs the role of a lethally powerful special sweeper/wallbreaker, while Raikou is overall a niche utility Pokémon that's outperformed by Zapdos and Mega Manectric. Besides, Volt Absorb Raikou is still unreleased, so your statement is false.
"Niche utility pokemon"
,,,,,,,
wow the raikou hate is so fukin real.
But my main problem with your argument here is that you compare raikou to zapdos. How in the world are you supposed to compare a defensive mon with a good typing and crappy defogging prowess to a super fast pokemon with decent power and set up potential. I have no idea where it comes from 0_0
Anyway, seeing as you actually did compare them, I'm assuming that you think the only set out there for raikou is AV or some random choice item, which quite frankly, just isn't too great.
However, a set of CM/tbolt/hp ice/extrasensory is so underrated and good in this meta its basically the third best electric in this meta, right after Rotom-W and thundurus. CM+3 attacks lets it put in so much work against double genie teams. Thundurus can hardly touch raikou outside of an LO superpower, which has to be invested, as a LO focus blast after a calm mind (raikou is base 115 remember) won't be doing shit (if it somehow hits).
From there, you can just sweep teams :3
Gotta weaken some dragons (especially kyu-b) and kill scarf grounds (chomp can be yache, watch out), but really other than that you just CM up on a thundurus or latios after a draco and you're pretty good to go, its a really nice mon and its sad to see you just shit on it and reduce it to the likes of zapdos and megaman :[
"Niche utility pokemon"
,,,,,,,
wow the raikou hate is so fukin real.
But my main problem with your argument here is that you compare raikou to zapdos. How in the world are you supposed to compare a defensive mon with a good typing and crappy defogging prowess to a super fast pokemon with decent power and set up potential. I have no idea where it comes from 0_0
Anyway, seeing as you actually did compare them, I'm assuming that you think the only set out there for raikou is AV or some random choice item, which quite frankly, just isn't too great.
However, a set of CM/tbolt/hp ice/extrasensory is so underrated and good in this meta its basically the third best electric in this meta, right after Rotom-W and thundurus. CM+3 attacks lets it put in so much work against double genie teams. Thundurus can hardly touch raikou outside of an LO superpower, which has to be invested, as a LO focus blast after a calm mind (raikou is base 115 remember) won't be doing shit (if it somehow hits).
From there, you can just sweep teams :3
Gotta weaken some dragons (especially kyu-b) and kill scarf grounds (chomp can be yache, watch out), but really other than that you just CM up on a thundurus or latios after a draco and you're pretty good to go, its a really nice mon and its sad to see you just shit on it and reduce it to the likes of zapdos and megaman :[
You have some good points about Raikou, but that doesn't change the fact that there are more preferable options over it. Raikou struggles to get past Ferrothorn and Chansey, for example; Mega Manectric and Zapdos may not be able to bypass Chansey, either, but they do have a far easier time with Ferrothorn, as Manectric can blast past it with Flamethrower/Overheat and Zapdos just fires a Heat Wave at the thorn pod. You fail to mention Knock Off on Thundurus-I, which it can use to remove Raikou's precious Life Orb which it needs to sweep, leaving the player with a crippled Raikou that lacks in power. In other words, you still gotta be careful with setting up a Raikou against Thundurus-I.
Secondly, Raikou still struggles against Mega Charizard X, most notably the Bulky WoW and Bulky DD. In fact, Mega Charizard X can even use Raikou as set-up bait to perform its own sweep.
Thanks for the general knowledge on CM Raikou - I'll be sure to give it a try sometime, as it does sound like a cool sweeper, but overall I don't feel like Raikou has made that much of an impact on the OU metagame, even now. I do realize CM's a lot better than the other sets (though I'm not sure about SubCM).
"Niche utility pokemon"
,,,,,,,
wow the raikou hate is so fukin real.
But my main problem with your argument here is that you compare raikou to zapdos. How in the world are you supposed to compare a defensive mon with a good typing and crappy defogging prowess to a super fast pokemon with decent power and set up potential. I have no idea where it comes from 0_0
Anyway, seeing as you actually did compare them, I'm assuming that you think the only set out there for raikou is AV or some random choice item, which quite frankly, just isn't too great.
However, a set of CM/tbolt/hp ice/extrasensory is so underrated and good in this meta its basically the third best electric in this meta, right after Rotom-W and thundurus. CM+3 attacks lets it put in so much work against double genie teams. Thundurus can hardly touch raikou outside of an LO superpower, which has to be invested, as a LO focus blast after a calm mind (raikou is base 115 remember) won't be doing shit (if it somehow hits).
From there, you can just sweep teams :3
Gotta weaken some dragons (especially kyu-b) and kill scarf grounds (chomp can be yache, watch out), but really other than that you just CM up on a thundurus or latios after a draco and you're pretty good to go, its a really nice mon and its sad to see you just shit on it and reduce it to the likes of zapdos and megaman :[
Jesus Christ man every time you talk about Raikou you post that replay. It wasn't my best game :(
Anyways, I support Thundy-T moving up. He may be outclassed, but he's still a lot better than the other pokes ranked with him (lolMega Bannette). He has a niche as a double dancer not unlike double dance Lando T last gen that can sweep teams late game. This doesn't even include the fact that he's one of the best checks to Thundy I who spams Thunder Wave left and right. He has his downfalls but that's why people are pushing for C+ - B- and not A+ or S.
Mega Sceptile is currently unreleased, so I think conversation about that should go to the general Sceptile thread in the Competitive subforum. Either that or the Orange Islands. What I do know, though, is that it shits all over Rotom-W.
You have some good points about Raikou, but that doesn't change the fact that there are more preferable options over it. Raikou struggles to get past Ferrothorn and Chansey, for example; Mega Manectric and Zapdos may not be able to bypass Chansey, either, but they do have a far easier time with Ferrothorn, as Manectric can blast past it with Flamethrower/Overheat and Zapdos just fires a Heat Wave at the thorn pod. You fail to mention Knock Off on Thundurus-I, which it can use to remove Raikou's precious Life Orb which it needs to sweep, leaving the player with a crippled Raikou that lacks in power. In other words, you still gotta be careful with setting up a Raikou against Thundurus-I.
Secondly, Raikou still struggles against Mega Charizard X, most notably the Bulky WoW and Bulky DD. In fact, Mega Charizard X can even use Raikou as set-up bait to perform its own sweep.
Thanks for the general knowledge on CM Raikou - I'll be sure to give it a try sometime, as it does sound like a cool sweeper, but overall I don't feel like Raikou has made that much of an impact on the OU metagame, even now. I do realize CM's a lot better than the other sets (though I'm not sure about SubCM).
If you looked at the replay closely, i wasn't even using a life orb. raikou's natural power is enough, that's why I use a leftovers, or if my team is weak to scarf grounds, i like to use a shuca. raikou definitely doesn't need the power of life orb lol.
Besides, mega zard x sets up on EVERY electric type not named OUR LORD STUNFISK. Sure it minds t-wave from thundurus, but the fact remains that thundurus can't really hurt it.
Besides, with extrasensory, I can actually get past mega venusaur, which is a MUCH tougher pokemon to work around than ferrothorn is, and is a much stronger stop to electric types in general. I mean ferrothorn really isn't that tough to wear down, but mega venu has synthesis and actual offensive presence :[
Jesus Christ man every time you talk about Raikou you post that replay. It wasn't my best game :(
Anyways, I support Thundy-T moving up. He may be outclassed, but he's still a lot better than the other pokes ranked with him (lolMega Bannette). He has a niche as a double dancer not unlike double dance Lando T last gen that can sweep teams late game. This doesn't even include the fact that he's one of the best checks to Thundy I who spams Thunder Wave left and right. He has his downfalls but that's why people are pushing for C+ - B- and not A+ or S.
My previous comment about Mantine was deleted and I am assuming that is because I was a bit too harsh when I was wondering why it is even on this viability ranking and comparing it to other unviable pokemon, one of them being blacklisted.
Until somebody can give me a good reason why Mantine is ranked and C- Rank for that matter, I would be really happy. But until then I will show why I don't see it viable at all:
Mantine is ranked as a special defensive Defogger with an excellent defensive typing and 2 immunities in Water and Ground and only 2 weaknesses in Rock and Electric. Looking at its stats, it is basicly a special version of Skarmory.
Where is the problem?
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mantine in Sun: 135-159 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mantine: 147-174 (44 - 52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mantine: 203-239 (60.7 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 140-165 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mantine: 230-270 (68.8 - 80.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 157-187 (47 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 291-348 (87.1 - 104.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mantine: 139-164 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 224-268 (67 - 80.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 130-154 (38.9 - 46.1%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mantine: 210-247 (62.8 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Basicly any of the relevant special attackers can 2HKO after Rocks Damage. Why did I take Rocks into account? Simple, because like Skarmory, Mantine suppost to be a reliable entry hazard remover, which includes switching into Stealth Rocks. The unfortunate thing about it is, Mantine takes 25 % of its health by switching in and has no reliable recovery.
So what "niche" does Mantine really have over other Defoggers? Actually only the Water Immunity, and besides Water Types, the only things that run Water Type moves are the Latis in OU and like the calculations shown, the only thing that is high up in which Mantine can switch is a Choice Locked Keldeo into Hydro Pump/Scald or Greninja.
You will have a much easier time with defoggers like the latis, zapdos, mandibuzz, skarmory or mega scizor or with spinners like starmie, mega blastoise or excadrill.
My previous comment about Mantine was deleted and I am assuming that is because I was a bit too harsh when I was wondering why it is even on this viability ranking and comparing it to other unviable pokemon, one of them being blacklisted.
Until somebody can give me a good reason why Mantine is ranked and C- Rank for that matter, I would be really happy. But until then I will show why I don't see it viable at all:
Mantine is ranked as a special defensive Defogger with an excellent defensive typing and 2 immunities in Water and Ground and only 2 weaknesses in Rock and Electric. Looking at its stats, it is basicly a special version of Skarmory.
Where is the problem?
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mantine in Sun: 135-159 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mantine: 147-174 (44 - 52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mantine: 203-239 (60.7 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 140-165 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mantine: 230-270 (68.8 - 80.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 157-187 (47 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 291-348 (87.1 - 104.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mantine: 139-164 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 224-268 (67 - 80.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 130-154 (38.9 - 46.1%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mantine: 210-247 (62.8 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Basicly any of the relevant special attackers can 2HKO after Rocks Damage. Why did I take Rocks into account? Simple, because like Skarmory, Mantine suppost to be a reliable entry hazard remover, which includes switching into Stealth Rocks. The unfortunate thing about it is, Mantine takes 25 % of its health by switching in and has no reliable recovery.
So what "niche" does Mantine really have over other Defoggers? Actually only the Water Immunity, and besides Water Types, the only things that run Water Type moves are the Latis in OU and like the calculations shown, the only thing that is high up in which Mantine can switch is a Choice Locked Keldeo into Hydro Pump/Scald or Greninja.
You will have a much easier time with defoggers like the latis, zapdos, mandibuzz, skarmory or mega scizor or with spinners like starmie, mega blastoise or excadrill.
I'm going to bring up Froslass once again.
She's currently in D rank, but now that the Deoxys formes have been banned she can effectively run a suicide lead set without the risk of being outclassed so she deserves to be moved up.
Not counting Klefki, Scolipede and Greninja (the latter two have better things to do), she's the fastest user of Spikes in OU, thanks to her base 110 speed and STAB Ice Beam she can beat many common defoggers (Mandibuzz, Zapdos and Lati@s) one-on-one, Cursed Body can mess up the ones she can't beat such as M-Scizor, Destiny Bond forces 50/50 coinflips mindgames and Taunt stops opposing hazard leads bar extremely fast ones such as Azelf.
And of course one can't forget her unique ability to spinblock her own Spikes by virtue of her typing.
For these reasons I would like to nominate her for C+ rank, on par with Klefki.
I'm going to bring up Froslass once again.
She's currently in D rank, but now that the Deoxys formes have been banned she can effectively run a suicide lead set without the risk of being outclassed so she deserves to be moved up.
Not counting Klefki, Scolipede and Greninja (the latter two have better things to do), she's the fastest user of Spikes in OU, thanks to her base 110 speed and STAB Ice Beam she can beat many common defoggers (Mandibuzz, Zapdos and Lati@s) one-on-one, Cursed Body can mess up the ones she can't beat such as M-Scizor, Destiny Bond forces 50/50 coinflips mindgames and Taunt stops opposing hazard leads bar extremely fast ones such as Azelf.
And of course one can't forget her unique ability to spinblock her own Spikes by virtue of her typing.
For these reasons I would like to nominate her for C+ rank, on par with Klefki.
I'm going to bring up Froslass once again.
She's currently in D rank, but now that the Deoxys formes have been banned she can effectively run a suicide lead set without the risk of being outclassed so she deserves to be moved up.
Not counting Klefki, Scolipede and Greninja (the latter two have better things to do), she's the fastest user of Spikes in OU, thanks to her base 110 speed and STAB Ice Beam she can beat many common defoggers (Mandibuzz, Zapdos and Lati@s) one-on-one, Cursed Body can mess up the ones she can't beat such as M-Scizor, Destiny Bond forces 50/50 coinflips mindgames and Taunt stops opposing hazard leads bar extremely fast ones such as Azelf.
And of course one can't forget her unique ability to spinblock her own Spikes by virtue of her typing.
For these reasons I would like to nominate her for C+ rank, on par with Klefki.
I would like to disagree. Klefki has prankster, giving its hazards priority. Klefki also has dual screens, giving it the one-up on Froslass. I understand where you are coming from, but I think Klefki is slightly better. C rank perhaps?
EDIT: I realized Klefki doesn't get hazards. In that case, they support their teams in different ways, making me open to C+
I'm going to bring up Froslass once again.
She's currently in D rank, but now that the Deoxys formes have been banned she can effectively run a suicide lead set without the risk of being outclassed so she deserves to be moved up.
Not counting Klefki, Scolipede and Greninja (the latter two have better things to do), she's the fastest user of Spikes in OU
The fact that Scolipede and Greninja have other viable sets they can run makes them more unpredictable as Spikes leads than Froslass. Although she has the Ghost typing and D-Bond, these traits didn't help her get any usage over the Deoxys forms, so I don't see how they really help her now in comparison to other hazard leads, especially since SR is usually a much better hazard than Spikes.
