np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[LU-the great]

As I hope you have seen on the suspect ladder, the absence of Aegislash has been a nightmare for stall because now all the stallbreakers are on the loose, so what you said there is simply not true, the absence of Aegislash may temporarily encourage more of an offensive playstyle, but that will only be temporary as we straighten up the tier. A tier that is so convoluted and centered around Aegilsash that dealing with the aftermath is actually a reason people are using to not ban him, which just shows that they are lazy, and can not come up with a good argument to keep him.

Over centralization is never a good thing, otherwise it would be called centralization. That means that ONE pokemon has soo many good traits it can completely discourage entire playstyles and pokemon from being used, forcing players to pick from a pool of albeit good pokemon, but regardless if they are good or not he limits teambuilding creativity single-handedly which is enough for ban for me. When you think of the tiers biggest threats you think charizard-x and mawile mega, these pokemon very well may get banned but they dont have impact the tier 1/4th as much as aegislash does, if you want a check for charizard x, just gets rocks on the field and have a scarfer with a dragon/rock/ground move, if you want to check mawile just use willowisp which is a good addition to any team and helps check other physical threats as well. But here is the point I am trying to make, Aegislash is the first pokemon that is not a sweeper and has wall like defenses that forces you to prepare for it. So that means that you now have one less spot to prepare for sweepers and offensive threats because you are worrying about an offensive pivot that if you dont prepare for it will take out your team.

I have similiar feelings about Aegislash as I did genesect, because honestly there is no reason not to put Aegislash on your team, he is easily the lowest risk highest reward pokemon, and the ratio is disproportianate in my opinion, like I said before, you need to address the issues comprehensively, breaking them down one by one is not going to convince anybody, if you want a solid argument in my eyes, you need to say ok here are these 5 traits that AEgislash possess and here is why I think the combination of these 5 traits is manageable and perfectly acceptable in OU.

I think "take out your team" has to be an exaggeration. I have never been able to just take out a team with Aegislash; though, I have done very serious damage with him. Further, I do think it is possible nor good form for an argument to take all of its traits into account in a single analysis, because Aegislash, as it has been said before, is something like no one has ever seen. It has a unique typing, a unique move pool, a unique ability, two different stat distributions and a very unique effect on the metagame. Trust me, I do see why Aegislash has ultimately come up as a suspect and I do see how one may think that all these traits in one pokemon is too powerful for the meta, I just disagree. I tend to think, giving nintendo the benefit of a doubt, that Aegislash was carefully crafted and designed to be unique equalizer. That is what I see. Anyway, got to work and I think many of our arguments have been exhausted the last couple of days. I do not have time to get my coil on the suspect ladder up to 2700, because I would have to redesign a team completely; though, I will still be battling in the suspect ladder and continuing to post my findings on here. Anyway good luck. Oh, and my deepest apologies to all the individuals I pissed off. No excuses. I am sorry.

 

[Sun King]

i would totally agree with this. but id say that a pokemon which has the ability to so completely threaten a playstyle with its power + near perfect coverage IS inherently broken. i mean, all wallbreakers can do this too, but none of them find the ridiculous number of switch in opurtunities that aegislash does.

I think what you're saying is more or less valid, but I don't think he's inherently broken. He forces people to play better as a result of those factors, which isn't something I'd say is broken so much as he's just the benchmark for competitive play. An example I'd give from a stall oriented view is when you see Gothitelle in team preview, you know you need to play mistake free until she's dead. Does that make Gothitelle broken? No--she's just really good at what she does--and I don't believe we should ban things for being that good at what they do; by that logic we would ban chansey for special walling.

I acknowledge that what you're saying is valid, yet brokenness is a pretty nebulous topic; there's not a clear line as to what defines broken, and I'm not sure I'm ready to jump on that bandwagon just yet.

 

[9 Tales of Ninetales]

I really like the discussion LU-the Great and MegaScizor are having on this 50/50 topic. (Which is getting talked about to death) But I think they’re having one of the first good debates on why people care about a King’s Shield 50/50.

I don’t have a strong stance myself on Aegislah’s OU state yet, but reading through most of this thread has gotten me really interested in the subject. Anyway, I had some of my own thoughts to add to the pot. I think there is a pretty big difference between these two different 50/50s and I want to explain it.

I first got interested in Pokémon competitively around 4 years ago. And after learning basics form this site and playing around on the simulators I started to come to this conclusion “when two relatively skilled players go toe to toe their battle, in essence, becomes who did a better job of randomly guessing?” This ”mamoswine, zapdos, infernape” example is a pretty good one. And it explains what I was thinking at that time. That at its highest level of play Pokémon was just the inconceivable which-drink-is-poisoned Princess Bride game. He’ll expect me to use Icicle crash so he’ll switch, But WAIT, he’s knows I know he’ll switch so he’ll stay in… and it goes on forever….

The truth, I later learned after playing more, is that this isn't the case. Pokémon has a higher level of “chess-like” play to it where you can make guess at what kinds of reactions your opponent will take to what you do and chose actions that force their hand and their reaction to keep your situation favorable and avoid 50/50s. It’s still guess work but it’s a level of strategy above simply taking the best course of action on any given turn.

I think this is the essence of the 3 things that make King Shield 50/50s different from a 50/50 scenario generated by regular play.

1) If you were thinking ahead and have more skill than your opponent then you can, not perfectly, but to some level avoid 50/50 situations. Or if nothing else, get to a point where the 50/50 don’t pose large risks to their ability to win. (like even if the Mamoswine gets heat waved or Infernape killed you played better and therefore have things prepared to revenge kill both the opponents reaming Pokémon) These 50/50 situations appear more frequently among two players more equal skilled. However any situation in which Aegilash generates a 50/50 is something that’s MUCH harder to avoid and shows up… more or less, regardless of planning and skill difference.

2) Aegislash 50/50 are generated much more reliably and consistently. The example with Infernape, Mamoswine, and Zapados is great, but if you switch any one of them with any other one OU Pokémon it’s generally not a 50/50 anymore. You can make up many other examples of moments in a game where a 50/50 comes into play but it still stands that they’re specific situations and altering them slightly makes the 50/50 go away. Using the same example as MegaScizor, Aegislash generates 50/50 just it vs Conkledurr, but I can substitute Conkeldurr with a huge plethora of OU Pokémon and it’s still going to be a 50/50. His 50/50s aren’t reliant on having the correct support Pokémon (infernape etc.) on your team and getting the right things on the field to at the right time. It’s literally just him and now there’s a 50/50

3) In the example of Mamoswine, Infernape, and Zapados there’s one 50/50. It’s one turn where you make a guess and once it’s done it’s done and everyone moves on with the battle whichever Pokemon were KOed. If you screw up an Aegislash 50/50 then you’re right back at square one. If it attacked last turn you still have no idea, If it KSed then it probably won’t again but it still could and definitely can one turn later… So once you’re in the 50/50 scenario it’s constant. There’s no “ok, I made a bad guess and I’ll pick up from there” it’s “crap, I made a bad guess and now I have to guess AGAIN”

So I think those 3 things are what make these 50/50s different.

 

[Stoo]

I think what you're saying is more or less valid, but I don't think he's inherently broken. He forces people to play better as a result of those factors, which isn't something I'd say is broken so much as he's just the benchmark for competitive play. An example I'd give from a stall oriented view is when you see Gothitelle in team preview, you know you need to play mistake free until she's dead. Does that make Gothitelle broken? No--she's just really good at what she does--and I don't believe we should ban things for being that good at what they do; by that logic we would ban chansey for special walling.

I acknowledge that what you're saying is valid, yet brokenness is a pretty nebulous topic; there's not a clear line as to what defines broken, and I'm not sure I'm ready to jump on that bandwagon just yet.

well, im defining said brokenness in terms of the offensive switch in factor like i mentioned earlier. in the case of offense vs aegislash, theres really no 'perfect play' you can make once aegislash comes in. something is going to be eating a shadow ball. the only 'play' you can sometimes make is going into lando-i on a predicted sacred sword if you're running the lando/bisharp core for stall/aegi breaking. even this is a pretty nebulous 'play' with alot of risk, just as switching into bisharp is always a huge risk. stall always has wiggle room for a couple of mistakes, but in this situation, offense really doesnt.

 

[Sun King]

well, im defining said brokenness in terms of the offensive switch in factor like i mentioned earlier. in the case of offense vs aegislash, theres really no 'perfect play' you can make once aegislash comes in. something is going to be eating a shadow ball. the only 'play' you can sometimes make is going into lando-i on a predicted sacred sword if you're running the lando/bisharp core for stall/aegi breaking. even this is a pretty nebulous 'play' with alot of risk, just as switching into bisharp is always a huge risk. stall always has wiggle room for a couple of mistakes, but in this situation, offense really doesnt.

I think Aegislash is pretty analogous to a wall breaker here. Against a wallbreaker, something's gonna die--especially against things like Medicham, where everything might die.

 

[MosesofWar]

I'm not sure if this has been covered or not (as I'm honestly not going to read through 39 pages of posts). Aegislash is good, but I'm not sure about the ban. Earthquake, Fire and Dark pokemon do well against Mr. Sword & Shield and force switches. A common core TTar + Exca easily destroys Aegi, Talonflame threatens as well Bisharp Checks it. There are others, but I'm at work and I can't really go into too much detail

 

[Stoo]

I think Aegislash is pretty analogous to a wall breaker here. Against a wallbreaker, something's gonna die--especially against things like Medicham, where everything might die.

except that every other wallbreaker cant switch in on 50/150/150 defenses. medicham switches into almost nothing on a standard offense team. aegi switches in on multiple pokes easily.

 

[Sun King]

except that every other wallbreaker cant switch in on 50/150/150 defenses. medicham switches into almost nothing on a standard offense team. aegi switches in on multiple pokes easily.

The analogy is that Aegi breaks offensive cores like Medicham breaks defensive ones. I understand that Medicham has no bulk against offense. Stall Pokemon rarely ever invest in their offenses, though, so the only thing he has to worry about is a burn.

 

[MosesofWar]

Or a Life Orb Exca with Earthquake...

 

[Toljik]

Or a Life Orb Exca with Earthquake...

Charizard-Y, and Landorus can also destroy Aegislash in one hit, but they are the only two Pokemon that can 1HKO Aegislash without tailoring their sets specifically to beat it (think Specs Rotom-H, Modest Overheat Infernape or special Victini), or forcing a 50/50 situation. I hope you weren't planning on running Air Balloon or a Jolly nature on that Excadrill.

i think aegi is really broken. it has uber-level offenses AND defenses, people. its flash cannon hits as hard as dialga's, for instance, and that is coupled with the fact that its STAB shadow ball is only resisted by/doesn't affect 2 types, and that aegi has a 85 bp coverage move that hits both SE, i'm amazed that some people don't even think it's broken. then it also has a bulk roughly the same of the uber deoxys-d, with one of the best defensive types ever.

HOWEVER, i think it should NOT be banned. the reason? simple: it balances the metagame. if it did not exist, threats like mega gardevoir and mega medicham would have no reason not to spam their overpowered moves as soon as they come in, as they would go unpunished; threats like mega pinsir would have no reason to use earthquake, thus would go for more broken coverage moves like close combat, which can do ridiculous amounts of damage to rotom-w/skarm/balloon tran, and the same applies for mega ttar and terrakion, and mega heracross to an extent. that would mean we'd have to suspect them, and end up banning a lot more stuff, which i think should not happen. additionally, even though it's pretty broken, it has many common counters/checks in mandibuzz, heatran, gliscor, both zards, along with less common but also viable ones like chesnaught or diggersby.

i randomly read in a signature of someone that aegislash is the condom of the OU metagame, and i cant agree more.

As said elsewhere in the thread, what's stopping Smogon from banning Gardevoir and Medicham too? The site could technically ban everything but Luvdisc if they thought it would be funny that it would balance the metagame.

And Shadow Sneak is not why Aegislash is getting suspected.

 

[Srn]

I am going to give and example of a 50/50 i think is healthy for a metagame to show that at least some are healthy. Assume, that I have stealth rocks up and rotom out. My opponent has Zapadose which has just taken stealth rock damage. he is down to one other pokemon. We will say it is Infernape. I predict an electric type attack and switch to Mamoswine, and i predict correctly. He has two choices. Either he leaves Zapadose out and takes huge damage from icicle crash, or he switches to Infernape and possibly gets hit with earthquake. Still, If i mispredict and use earthquake I get a heatwave to the face. If I mispredict and use icicle crash on an Infernape switch, I will get outspeed and KO'ed the following turn. Neither, of us actually has the upper hand. It is a naturally generated 50/50 scenario. Mamoswine generates many of these because he can hit so many things super effectively, yet he gets so many weaknesses. Still, would we want to say that these situations should not be part of the game? How could they not? In this situation how is it even possible to make both our next decisions certain, and how would that be competitive. The answer is it wouldn't and it isn't. These situations have to happen and they are competitive.



In previous posts I have argued that the over-centralization is actually healthy for the metagame, because it centralizes away from pure stall and powerful sweepers and stead centers the game around pure prediction as a win condition. It gives players something else to worry about instead of a pokemon buffing or setting up substitute, and it halts endless switching wars. This I think,for obvious reasons, is healthy.

I have not argued against its "god-like" stats and its "versatility" because I have not seen a well established argument that uses these criteria as their substance. I will address them here if you would like. First, a pokemon being too versatile holds no water by itself. For this reason, I would only have to argue against the other three, two of which I have already done. When it comes to God-like stats I can say only that Aegislash cannot abuse them in a ban-worthy way. First off, and this has been put forth multiple times, he only has God-like states if you take the sum total of his states in shield form and sword form. If he had them all at the same time, which people tend to want to argue because of the mechanics of King shield, there would be no argument. I would have never made an account on this forum to defend against his banning. Further, because of the mechanics of King's Shield he is susceptible to both encore and taunt, and almost all users of these two moves can out speed and cripple him into one form or the other because of his atrocious speed. I wouldn't call that God-like, especially since he cannot abuse them without risk to himself. This is very unlike the power of say Mega Blazikin, Gengar, or Khangaskhan who can either sweep with ease with very few checks or can trap and eliminate an important portion of your core. I disagreed with the ban of these three pokemon because, in general, I do not like bans but they were powerful enough that I understood the suspect testing of the community. But, there is a huge power lacuna between these pokemon and Aegislash. Aegislash just cannot be compared to their destructive capabilities.

Aegislash is indeed versatile. He makes spamming fighting moves a less powerful tactic, which I think is a good thing. Ghost steel allows him to pivot into many attacks, not disimmilar to Rotom-w. He ruins rapid spin, which is nerfed anyway because its users are generally terrible pokemon anyway and because of new defoggers. He has a powerful Ghost stab. Thank goodness! We needed another stab Ghost attack other than Gengar. He can run a mixed set. This gives a soft nerf to stall. He has King's shield. This gives a soft nerf to hyper offensive teams. Still, without the use of the other arguments we can only conclude that he is just one of the most balanced pokemon in the game. And, as far as I can tell, there really aren't any other arguments. I tend to think that is why he is used so often. *shrug*

I don't think that was my words in the second quote btw, I definitely wouldn't say things like that...

But the thing about your situation, which is perfectly realistic, is that its situational. However, whenever you face something like a mega mawile or an aegislash, there are going to be some 50/50s pretty much gauranteed, and not so much with aegislash because you're only getting forced out, but losing a 50/50 against a mega mawile can be the sole difference between victory and defeat.

 

[Sun King]

i think aegi is really broken. it has uber-level offenses AND defenses, people. its flash cannon hits as hard as dialga's, for instance, and that is coupled with the fact that its STAB shadow ball is only resisted by/doesn't affect 2 types, and that aegi has a 85 bp coverage move that hits both SE, i'm amazed that some people don't even think it's broken. then it also has a bulk roughly the same of the uber deoxys-d, with one of the best defensive types ever.

HOWEVER, i think it should NOT be banned. the reason? simple: it balances the metagame. if it did not exist, threats like mega gardevoir and mega medicham would have no reason not to spam their overpowered moves as soon as they come in, as they would go unpunished; threats like mega pinsir would have no reason to use earthquake, thus would go for more broken coverage moves like close combat, which can do ridiculous amounts of damage to rotom-w/skarm/balloon tran, and the same applies for mega ttar and terrakion, and mega heracross to an extent. that would mean we'd have to suspect them, and end up banning a lot more stuff, which i think should not happen. additionally, even though it's pretty broken, it has many common counters/checks in mandibuzz, heatran, gliscor, both zards, along with less common but also viable ones like chesnaught or diggersby.

i randomly read in a signature of someone that aegislash is the condom of the OU metagame, and i cant agree more.

Believe me--I agree with you--but we've already established that argument as faulty. We can't hold a ban back if we deem something broken or unhealthy just because it checks/counters other broken stuff. Toljik said it correctly: If something is broken after the ban, then we ban that too.

The banning of Aegislash is likely to lead to further bans, but we can't let that be the one reason we don't ban it.

 

[Alyrin]

I don't believe Aegislash should be banned. I've never used the thing, but it has plenty of counters and it's extremely easy to predict it's king's shielding if people know what they're doing. If you're using a physical attacker such as Talonflame, for example, the opposing is obviously going to shield on the first turn in order to avoid it's fire type move, and render it useless.

Aegislash lacks a move capable of dealing with Talonflame before Talonflame can deal with it. Talonflame is also OU, and people spam it like it's going out of style. This backs up my previous statement about it being easy to counter. If someone fails to predict? They deserve to have their attack dropped. They can just switch out. It isn't even a big deal. It wouldn't be a bad thing to have some of the more bulky and spammy attackers knocked off their pedestal. Again, I use talonflame as an example.

Banning it would allow people to be lazy considering Smogon seems to be banning everything that requires strategy to deal with. It's basically just making the game even more mindless and spammy considering the pokemon that would replace it. You can also deal with aegislash with a simple taunt from Sableye, or any other type really. It isn't as if prankster is an uncommon ability in people's teams. There's also spore smeargle. Most every team in OU runs taunt, and said taunt shuts down two of Aegislash's most used moves (Swords dance and king's shield) for way more than enough turns to knock it out, or even pursuit it on it's exit if you do it properly.

Or. You know.
Build a more balanced team and swap to a special attacker. Greninja works, assuming you can predict it's shielding. Sableye, too.
Honestly, if it was banned, the pokemon that would come back would be just as annoying and we would probably see them here for the suspect test rapidly afterwards. It wouldn't help anything.

People just need to 'smart up', should I say. It isn't hard to predict it, and it especially shouldn't be hard if you have to face it 2000 times a day. Don't you learn after the first 100?

On a side note. If it was banned, who's there going to be to deal with fairy types? Very few offensive steel/poison types ever see OU. We seriously need Aegis.

 

[Luckstard.]

Here are the three main reasons we ban things:

1. Something is overpowered. Mostly Pokemon get banned for this reason, because they are either too strong offensively, defensively, or supportively. Some examples are Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D, the most recent Pokemon that got banned, the first of which was banned because of a combination of offensive and support characteristics, while Deoxys-D was banned for its supporting abilities.

2. Something is uncompetitive. Elements of Pokemon that reduce the importance of skill in a game too much are included in this category. Some things we have banned and fall into this category are Swagger and Baton Pass chains.

3. Something has a negative presence in the metagame. This is the another reason to ban something, and one which a lot of people forget. Banning Pokemon because they have a negative (negative enough to justify a ban) effect on the metagame is a totally reasonable way to ban something, and has been done multiple times in the past.

alexwolf posted it on the VR thread, so I will use it to share my point of view about Aegislash.

1. Aegislash is not overpowered, yes it can fires strong Shadow Ball, yes Ghost + Fight is an incredibly good coverage, but Aegislash has a terribad speed, so he is unable to sweep an entire team.
Defensively, Aegislash is, for HO teams, one of the best Fairy resist of the metagame atm, outclassing other steels so far.

2. I guess that's for King's Shield. A really good move. You guyz are complaining about 50/50s that KS forces, but 50/50s are part of the game, and, by the way, KS is not always a 50/50, especially in late game.

3. I do not think that Aegis has a negative presence in the metagame. I think he is like M-Venusaur or Thundurus-I, a "staple" of the metagame. Aegislash is really important in this meta, he balances it pretty well (even if some mons are broken).

I guess I won't get the reqs this time because I don't have the time for this, and I don't like playing XY (that doesn't mean I've never played XY OU). This meta is not really interesting to be played, and I really think Aegis isn't a broken mon, there is a lot of things that need to be ban before Aegislash.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

I don't believe Aegislash should be banned. I've never used the thing, but it has plenty of counters and it's extremely easy to predict it's king's shielding if people know what they're doing. If you're using a physical attacker such as Talonflame, for example, the opposing is obviously going to shield on the first turn in order to avoid it's fire type move, and render it useless.

Aegislash lacks a move capable of dealing with Talonflame before Talonflame can deal with it. Talonflame is also OU, and people spam it like it's going out of style. This backs up my previous statement about it being easy to counter. If someone fails to predict? They deserve to have their attack dropped. They can just switch out. It isn't even a big deal. It wouldn't be a bad thing to have some of the more bulky and spammy attackers knocked off their pedestal. Again, I use talonflame as an example.

It would allow older OU pokemon, pokemon that are no longer particularly viable, to shine through. It also allows people to be lazy considering Smogon seems to be banning everything that requires strategy to deal with. It's basically just making the game even more mindless and spammy. You can also deal with aegislash with a simple taunt from Sableye, or any other type really. It isn't as if prankster is an uncommon ability in people's teams. There's also spore smeargle. Most every team in OU runs taunt, and said taunt shuts down two of Aegislash's most used moves (Swords dance and king's shield) for way more than enough turns to knock it out, or even pursuit it on it's exit if you do it properly.

Or. You know.
Build a more balanced team and swap to a special attacker. Greninja works, assuming you can predict it's shielding. Sableye, too.
Honestly, if it was banned, the pokemon that would come back would be just as annoying and we would probably see them here for the suspect test rapidly afterwards. It wouldn't help anything.

People just need to 'smart up', should I say. It isn't hard to predict it, and it especially shouldn't be hard if you have to face it 2000 times a day. Don't you learn after the first 100?

1) Prediction is a two-way street and makes for a poor counter-argument. In your Talonflame example, if the player predicts you switching out, the opposing Aegislash can just use Shadow Ball.
2) Prankster is used in OU by 2 Mons with Taunt: Sableye and Thundurus-I. There are others, but they're considered very niche Pokemon. In other words, it's not that wide-spread.
3) When you use taunt, you run the risk of getting hit hard by Aegislash if it doesn't use King's Shield or a set-up move, so that's not a foolproof solution
4) Rather than assuming that everyone complaining about Aegislash is a bad teambuilder and player, you should read the thread as there are good players who bring up good points on both sides of the argument (they're buried deep, but they're there).

 

[TheWyvernKing]

I don't believe Aegislash should be banned. I've never used the thing, but it has plenty of counters and it's extremely easy to predict it's king's shielding if people know what they're doing. If you're using a physical attacker such as Talonflame, for example, the opposing is obviously going to shield on the first turn in order to avoid it's fire type move, and render it useless.

Aegislash lacks a move capable of dealing with Talonflame before Talonflame can deal with it. Talonflame is also OU, and people spam it like it's going out of style. This backs up my previous statement about it being easy to counter. If someone fails to predict? They deserve to have their attack dropped. They can just switch out. It isn't even a big deal. It wouldn't be a bad thing to have some of the more bulky and spammy attackers knocked off their pedestal. Again, I use talonflame as an example.

It would allow older OU pokemon, pokemon that are no longer particularly viable, to shine through. It also allows people to be lazy considering Smogon seems to be banning everything that requires strategy to deal with. It's basically just making the game even more mindless and spammy. You can also deal with aegislash with a simple taunt from Sableye, or any other type really. It isn't as if prankster is an uncommon ability in people's teams. There's also spore smeargle. Most every team in OU runs taunt, and said taunt shuts down two of Aegislash's most used moves (Swords dance and king's shield) for way more than enough turns to knock it out, or even pursuit it on it's exit if you do it properly.

Or. You know.
Build a more balanced team and swap to a special attacker. Greninja works, assuming you can predict it's shielding. Sableye, too.
Honestly, if it was banned, the pokemon that would come back would be just as annoying and we would probably see them here for the suspect test rapidly afterwards. It wouldn't help anything.

People just need to 'smart up', should I say. It isn't hard to predict it, and it especially shouldn't be hard if you have to face it 2000 times a day. Don't you learn after the first 100?

Hm..."lacks a move capable of dealing with talonflame", King's shield totally cripples it and shadow ball should be able to deal massive damage with 252+. Also i absolutely agree smogon has made many unneeded bans like talonflame from mono but this is not one of them.

Also your making it seem like aegislash has 1 set-the stance dance which is probably one of the worst ones. Aegislash is EXTREMELY VERSATILE. it has no said counter due to this. The only pokes that can ohko it are the 2 strongest wallbreakers in ou with stab super effective moves-lando and zard y. Bisharp dies to a sacred sword and cannot switch in, mandibuzz NEEDS TAUNT to deal with aegislash which it can't fit into it's moveset-no taunt means sub-toxic absolutely makes a joke out of it. Also it's not like every aegislash has king's shield. Not running King's shield is what makes some of it's sets viable since it can easily kill on a set up.

Also the fact that you "face it 2000 times a day" clearly shows how much it is used. It SHAPES THE METAGAME making pokes like lucario and starmie drop down and making people run the same pokes and multiple ground and fire moves just to deal with ONE POKE. Talonflame probably got less usage because it can't deal with it infact and sableye dies to like 2 shadow balls, not to mention everyone uses smeargle as a lead so sporing it prolly wont happen. The type of 50/50 your talking about isn't the matter of prediction as much as aegislash FORCING you into a corner to try and escape it.

This pokemon has been s-class since day one meaning 1 free turn of set up can spell gg right in your face even if you run 5000 earthquakes, for all you know it has a weakness policy and its at max stats in 2 seconds flat. This pokemon shouldn't be uber because you can't predict it, it's going uber because it made a total mess of a metagame. Mega medicham should probably already be ubers but 1 Pokemon kept a pokemon out of ubers for 9 months because of the fact its on EVERY SINGLE TEAM.

I'm gonna say this, Aegislash is extremely versatile with monster typing getting top usage since day 1, it shouldve been banned 9 months ago and we wouldn't be in the mess we are now. The second it gets banned mega medicham will follow a week later and the metagame would totally reset to what it should be.

 

[Alyrin]

1) Prediction is a two-way street and makes for a poor counter-argument. In your Talonflame example, if the player predicts you switching out, the opposing Aegislash can just use Shadow Ball.
2) Prankster is used in OU by 2 Mons with Taunt: Sableye and Thundurus-I. There are others, but they're considered very niche Pokemon. In other words, it's not that wide-spread.
3) When you use taunt, you run the risk of getting hit hard by Aegislash if it doesn't use King's Shield or a set-up move, so that's not a foolproof solution
4) Rather than assuming that everyone complaining about Aegislash is a bad teambuilder and player, you should read the thread as there are good players who bring up good points on both sides of the argument (they're buried deep, but they're there).

1. Everything is a two way street. That's how a pokemon battle works, isn't it? You can't always perform flawlessly, and neither can your opposition. If you predict them, you win. If they predict you, they win. In any situation, that's generally how it goes, and adding Aegislash or Talonflame to the equation doesn't change that fact. Nothing changes that fact. Just because the game requires prediction and effort doesn't mean it should be banned.

2-3. It doesn't have to be with prankster, and just as many people run Smeargle and/or pokemon that can cause a burn and cripple Aegislash. There is no fool-proof solution to anything, and I definitely hope you don't expect there to be one. I offered a commonly used means of dealing with the thing as an example, not a definite answer that will constantly work all the time. Depending on the pokemon you're facing, you're pretty much always running the risk of getting hit hard if you make a mistake. The point I was trying to make was to learn the patterns and predict what the opponent will do accordingly.

4. I wasn't assuming that, and I'm acknowledging here and now that there are thousands of amazing players. Nobody can logically deny that. I'm just saying that since Aegislash is OU, people should realize fairly rapidly if/when their team has a weakness to it, and act accordingly. Repeating the same actions over and over then expecting a different result is the definition of insanity. Instead of getting rid of it, and again I don't doubt there are people who can make a good counter argument, someone could add one of the following, which also work as lovely counters against many other OU pokemon as well and are viable on any team.

Taunt, fast special attacker with a dark/fire move, a sleeping move, a burn move, sucker punch, etc.

 

[LeoLancaster]

alexwolf posted it on the VR thread, so I will use it to share my point of view about Aegislash.

1. Aegislash is not overpowered, yes it can fires strong Shadow Ball, yes Ghost + Fight is an incredibly good coverage, but Aegislash has a terribad speed, so he is unable to sweep an entire team.
Defensively, Aegislash is, for HO teams, one of the best Fairy resist of the metagame atm, outclassing other steels so far.

2. I guess that's for King's Shield. A really good move. You guyz are complaining about 50/50s that KS forces, but 50/50s are part of the game, and, by the way, KS is not always a 50/50, especially in late game.

3. I do not think that Aegis has a negative presence in the metagame. I think he is like M-Venusaur or Thundurus-I, a "staple" of the metagame. Aegislash is really important in this meta, he balances it pretty well (even if some mons are broken).

I guess I won't get the reqs this time because I don't have the time for this, and I don't like playing XY (that doesn't mean I've never played XY OU). This meta is not really interesting to be played, and I really think Aegis isn't a broken mon, there is a lot of things that need to be ban before Aegislash.

Alexwolf's third reason to ban a 'mon is the crux of this suspect test. Most (not all) people agree that Aegislash isn't truly overpowered in the "classic" sense (the first reason), and there's been discussion about KS 50/50s (which fall under the second reason), but the main thrust here undoubtedly falls under the third reason to ban.

• The first question: Does Aegislash's presence have a negative effect on the tier?
  • This is pretty subjective. Some point to how Aegislash strains teambuilding by forcing the inclusion of multiple checks (for offense) or making it more difficult for Stall to fit everything they need into a team. Some point to how Aegislash single-handedly forces 'mons like Terrakion and Pinsir to run sub-optimal coverage moves. Yet others would say that Aegislash keeps the meta in check by limiting the viability of certain Pokemon, either through outright walling them or, again, forcing a coverage move.
• The second question: Is Aegislash's effect on the tier excessive for one Pokemon to have, regardless of whether the effect is ultimately beneficial or not?
  • Again, this is subjective, because it matters where you draw the line. Does Aegislash force too many Pokemon to run coverage moves? Does Aegislash limit the viability of too many Pokemon for being a single influence in the tier? My opinion is that Aegislash has too much of an effect for a single Pokemon, but if the impact caused by him was due to multiple Pokemon, then there wouldn't be a problem.

Overall, it's all up to personal opinion here. Whether or not the meta is better without Aegislash, and whether or not Aegislash's impact is too much for one 'mon, is subjective. After all, if it wasn't, then we wouldn't need suspect tests in the first place.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

i think aegi is really broken. it has uber-level offenses AND defenses, people. its flash cannon hits as hard as dialga's, for instance, and that is coupled with the fact that its STAB shadow ball is only resisted by/doesn't affect 2 types, and that aegi has a 85 bp coverage move that hits both SE, i'm amazed that some people don't even think it's broken. then it also has a bulk roughly the same of the uber deoxys-d, with one of the best defensive types ever.

HOWEVER, i think it should NOT be banned. the reason? simple: it balances the metagame. if it did not exist, threats like mega gardevoir and mega medicham would have no reason not to spam their overpowered moves as soon as they come in, as they would go unpunished; threats like mega pinsir would have no reason to use earthquake, thus would go for more broken coverage moves like close combat, which can do ridiculous amounts of damage to rotom-w/skarm/balloon tran, and the same applies for mega ttar and terrakion, and mega heracross to an extent. that would mean we'd have to suspect them, and end up banning a lot more stuff, which i think should not happen. additionally, even though it's pretty broken, it has many common counters/checks in mandibuzz, heatran, gliscor, both zards, along with less common but also viable ones like chesnaught or diggersby.

i randomly read in a signature of someone that aegislash is the condom of the OU metagame, and i cant agree more.

....are you serious? I mean you are a tiering contributor and are using the broken checking broken argument? You dont even try and dance around it you are plainly saying that Aegislash is broken but we need him to check other broken mons. I really hope you are joking, otherwise I am seriously concerned.

 

[Alyrin]

Hm..."lacks a move capable of dealing with talonflame", King's shield totally cripples it and shadow ball should be able to deal massive damage with 252+. Also i absolutely agree smogon has made many unneeded bans like talonflame from mono but this is not one of them.

Also your making it seem like aegislash has 1 set-the stance dance which is probably one of the worst ones. Aegislash is EXTREMELY VERSATILE. it has no said counter due to this. The only pokes that can ohko it are the 2 strongest wallbreakers in ou with stab super effective moves-lando and zard y. Bisharp dies to a sacred sword and cannot switch in, mandibuzz NEEDS TAUNT to deal with aegislash which it can't fit into it's moveset-no taunt means sub-toxic absolutely makes a joke out of it. Also it's not like every aegislash has king's shield. Not running King's shield is what makes some of it's sets viable since it can easily kill on a set up.

Also the fact that you "face it 2000 times a day" clearly shows how much it is used. It SHAPES THE METAGAME making pokes like lucario and starmie drop down and making people run the same pokes and multiple ground and fire moves just to deal with ONE POKE. Talonflame probably got less usage because it can't deal with it infact and sableye dies to like 2 shadow balls, not to mention everyone uses smeargle as a lead so sporing it prolly wont happen. The type of 50/50 your talking about isn't the matter of prediction as much as aegislash FORCING you into a corner to try and escape it.

This pokemon has been s-class since day one meaning 1 free turn of set up can spell gg right in your face even if you run 5000 earthquakes, for all you know it has a weakness policy and its at max stats in 2 seconds flat. This pokemon shouldn't be uber because you can't predict it, it's going uber because it made a total mess of a metagame. Mega medicham should probably already be ubers but 1 Pokemon kept a pokemon out of ubers for 9 months because of the fact its on EVERY SINGLE TEAM.

I'm gonna say this, Aegislash is extremely versatile with monster typing getting top usage since day 1, it shouldve been banned 9 months ago and we wouldn't be in the mess we are now. The second it gets banned mega medicham will follow a week later and the metagame would totally reset to what it should be.

Talonflame was just an example, like I said in the first post. Most teams run a ground/fire/dark/ghost attacker, or someone with those moves. Usually someone who can easily outspeed Aegislash. I also said you can predict around the shield with a roost on the first turn in some/most cases, because people will obviously go for the shield or risk losing their slash. I dislike repeating myself, just want to put that out there.

It doesn't just have one moveset. It runs both special and physical, and I've seen the thing run so many sets that I couldn't count them, much like Lucario, Tyranitar, Smeargle, and a whole bunch of other Pokemon. After the first turn (which usually won't kill you unless you have a type disadvantage) it's generally pretty easy to tell what their set up is. Mandibuzz also isn't the only pokemon who can run taunt. Like I mentioned before. Sableye. There's also greninja who can murder it in one shot regardless of it's king's shield on the first turn. There are not only two pokemon who can do that to it. Not even close.

There are a lot of pokemon I face 2000 times a day (exaggeration obviously), including many of the listed above. On a side note, I've never actually seen anyone run a bisharp because it's weak to nearly everything in OU right now. I have no idea why you brought that thing up. Sableye also doesn't die to two shadow balls. It has prankster, usually carries leftovers, recover, and will-o-wisp depending on the set. Definitely carries recover though. You can get a good 4 turns out of it at minimum.

Do you have any idea how many pokemon force you into a corner? Smeargle automatically renders one of your pokemon useless for the entire match with spore/dark void unless you can get a taunt off on it. You HAVE to sacrifice something. Then it proceeds to set up on you with either dances or entry hazards. You should apply that logic of your's to every other pokemon and not just this one, because there are many other, way more guilty pokemon for what you're saying.

Also. Weakness policy..
Dragon dance dragonite. Also guilty. It's also faster, and has a buttload of type coverage and versatile movesets.

That is all I can say.

 

[ReShift_]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned already, but I just noticed that Chesnaught is a pretty amazing Pokemon to wall/kill Aegislash.

Chesnaught @ Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Protect
- Leech Seed
- Earthquake
- Synthesis

Because of Chesnaught's Grass / Fighting typing, he already resists Ghost and Rock attacks. That soaks up both Shadow Sneak, Shadow Claw, Rock Slide, and Head Smash entirely. Shadow Ball? Nope. Bulletproof, that laughed upon ability, eradicates the move entirely. That cancels out six of Aegislash's few attacks. The only thing that can do much damage to Chesnaught is Iron Head. but even with 252 EVs in attack and a 2+ boost to attack, it's only 2HKO.

+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 201-237 (52.8 - 62.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 102-120 (26.8 - 31.5%) -- 25.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 124-147 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 5.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 102-120 (26.8 - 31.5%) -- 25.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 150-177 (39.4 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Note that all of these are 252+ 2+ Attack Aegislashes here. That's pretty sad. The only thing that really scared Chesnaught is a 252+ Special Attack + Flash Cannon, as it does get a sure 2HKO. But because full special sets are so rare, it's not really a problem.

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chesnaught: 204-240 (53.6 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

---

Now for the killing the threat half of this post. Chesnaught has a pretty awesome 107 base attack stat, and access to Earthquake. Weakness Policy Aegislash tend to run with a Lonley nature, which is a 50/50 chance to be 1HKOed. Aside from that, Chesnaught will always land a 2HKO Earthquake on Aegislash.

4 Atk Chesnaught Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Blade: 166-196 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Chesnaught Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Aegislash-Blade: 294-348 (90.7 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

---

Since King's Shield does exist on many Aegislash sets, Chesnaught has the simple LeechSynth combo on the set. He has access to Protect for either healing up some extra, or scouting out what moves Aegislash has.

---

I'm sorry if I didn't put enough detail and such, but I'm just trying to help prove that Aegislash does in fact have counters, even if they seem unlikely. I do feel like a ban for Aegislash in OU should happen, as the metagame is pretty centralized around him. He also is pretty hard to counter, especially to the many new players this generation on Showdown. He has a total of 720, which is pretty threatening on it's own. His sheer power of unpredictability also give him a HUGE advantage over his checks/counters/whatevers.

 

[HackerKing]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned already, but I just noticed that Chesnaught is a pretty amazing Pokemon to wall/kill Aegislash.

<Snip Snip Analysis Snip>

I'm sorry if I didn't put enough detail and such, but I'm just trying to help prove that Aegislash does in fact have counters, even if they seem unlikely. This doesn't mean that I'm all for Aegislash staying in OU. I'm just trying to add an argument to the defending side c:

Aegislash does have counters and checks. The biggest problem, though, is whether Chesnaught is worth running just to kill Aegislash. Even if a pokemon has checks and counters, it's still ban-worthy material if its checks are extremely esoteric and rare pokemon whose only purpose is to defeat them. And that's the vibe I'm getting from Aegislash.

Chesnaught beats it. But what else does Chesnaught do? Mono-attacking sub-seeder? I'm just not seeing it.

EDIT: I know you're playinf Devil's advocate, but I'm not seeing a convincing argument from anyone on the not-ban side.

 

[ReShift_]

Aegislash does have counters and checks. The biggest problem, though, is whether Chesnaught is worth running just to kill Aegislash. Even if a pokemon has checks and counters, it's still ban-worthy material if its checks are extremely esoteric and rare pokemon whose only purpose is to defeat them. And that's the vibe I'm getting from Aegislash.

Chesnaught beats it. But what else does Chesnaught do? Mono-attacking sub-seeder? I'm just not seeing it.

EDIT: I know you're playinf Devil's advocate, but I'm not seeing a convincing argument from anyone on the not-ban side.

Yes, I'm totally with you. I was just giving an example of something that can potentially counter Aegislash.

 

[Sun King]

Aegislash does have counters and checks. The biggest problem, though, is whether Chesnaught is worth running just to kill Aegislash. Even if a pokemon has checks and counters, it's still ban-worthy material if its checks are extremely esoteric and rare pokemon whose only purpose is to defeat them. And that's the vibe I'm getting from Aegislash.

Chesnaught beats it. But what else does Chesnaught do? Mono-attacking sub-seeder? I'm just not seeing it.

EDIT: I know you're playinf Devil's advocate, but I'm not seeing a convincing argument from anyone on the not-ban side.

Chesnaught is a perfectly viable option as a physically bulky grass type for stall teams. He's my go-to Aegislash answer, and he contributes to a solid FWG core.

This goes back to what I was saying about the players who have issues with Aegi: Defensive players can pretty easily justify running an Aegi counter because they're at home on defensive teams.

 

[Toljik]

Chesnaught is a perfectly viable option as a physically bulky grass type for stall teams. He's my go-to Aegislash answer, and he contributes to a solid FWG core.

This goes back to what I was saying about the players who have issues with Aegi: Defensive players can pretty easily justify running an Aegi counter because they're at home on defensive teams.

Can't you say the same thing about Swagger, though? Defensive Pokemon like Rotom-W, Mandibuzz and Chansey took nothing from confusion damage and Foul Play.