np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[haunter]

There is no burden of proof here. This is just a discussion thread, not a trial. People can freely present their opinions on Aegislash, regardless of the "evidence" they produce to back up their claims. Besides, as stated multiple times in this thread, proving that something like Aegislash is "broken" would be a probatio diabolica, since:
1) we don't have a set in stone definition of "broken";
2) Aegislash's presence in the metagame is subject to extremely subjective perceptions.

I'd appreciate not being forced to discuss this point any further.

 

[Harsha]

I have not read all of this thread, though I know that there are plenty of posts that say offense will be broken without Aegislash around.

This could not be more false. Aegislash functions as a check to Mega Gardevoir, Mega Medicham, and some Fighting-types when it is on an offensive team. I have never seen a defensive team that used Aegislash to check these Pokemon—defensive teams simply do not have enough space. Almost all stall teams are weak to one of the aforementioned Mega Evolutions; that is a risk you are already taking when you choose to bring a defensive team to battle. Stall teams are, by nature, weak to these Pokemon. The argument that removing Aegislash will overpower offensive teams is ludicrous.

Consider this scenario: you have a stall team and you are facing an offensive team with a Taunt Mega Gardevoir. Your stall team is weak to Taunt Mega Gardevoir. There is no Aegislash present. To assume that Aegislash has anything to do with this matchup is just faulty reasoning. In fact, getting rid of Aegislash is simply taking care of another threat to stall teams. Predicting which direction the metagame will shift is not relevant to this suspect test. Whether Aegislash is broken or not is the question the test should be based around.

 

[Baharoth]

I have not read all of this thread, though I know that there are plenty of posts that say offense will be broken without Aegislash around.

This could not be more false. Aegislash functions as a check to Mega Gardevoir, Mega Medicham, and some Fighting-types when it is on an offensive team. I have never seen a defensive team that used Aegislash to check these Pokemon—defensive teams simply do not have enough space. Almost all stall teams are weak to one of the aforementioned Mega Evolutions; that is a risk you are already taking when you choose to bring a defensive team to battle. Stall teams are, by nature, weak to these Pokemon. The argument that removing Aegislash will overpower offensive teams is ludicrous.

Consider this scenario: you have a stall team and you are facing an offensive team with a Taunt Mega Gardevoir. Your stall team is weak to Taunt Mega Gardevoir. There is no Aegislash present. To assume that Aegislash has anything to do with this matchup is just faulty reasoning. In fact, getting rid of Aegislash is simply taking care of another threat to stall teams. Predicting which direction the metagame will shift is not relevant to this suspect test. Whether Aegislash is broken or not is the question the test should be based around.

1. Just because you havent seen defensive teams using Aegi for those mons doesnt mean there arent any.
2. The mere presence of Aegi kept those mons at bay, even if you didnt have Aegi on your team you still benefit from it because there are less Gards/Heras/Medis around and even if they are they might carry moves like Shadowball/EQ/Fire Punch to deal with Aegi making it easier for other teams to deal with them.

The question whether Aegi is broken or not cant be answered anyway because its highly subjective. Most of the arguments regarding his brokenness are nonsense but there is one argument that cant be denied and thats the overcentralization argument. There cant be any discussion that Aegi has centered the meta around him the only question is if that makes him broken. And with that we are back to highly subjective...

 

[Harsha]

1. Just because you havent seen defensive teams using Aegi for those mons doesnt mean there arent any.
2. The mere presence of Aegi kept those mons at bay, even if you didnt have Aegi on your team you still benefit from it because there are less Gards/Heras/Medis around and even if they are they might carry moves like Shadowball/EQ/Fire Punch to deal with Aegi making it easier for other teams to deal with them.

The question whether Aegi is broken or not cant be answered anyway because its highly subjective. Most of the arguments regarding his brokenness are nonsense but there is one argument that cant be denied and thats the overcentralization argument. There cant be any discussion that Aegi has centered the meta around him the only question is if that makes him broken. And with that we are back to highly subjective...

Your argument is the exact one I addressed. While it is true that there are probably defensive teams around with Aegislash, I implore you to find a successful one and show it to me. Aegislash has been used a grand total of zero times on defensive WCoP teams, which is possibly the highest level of play you will find. Furthermore, the theoretical team was always weak to those Pokemon. Aegislash is irrelevant. The weakness to said Mega Evolutions was always present. You cannot blame losing over and over again to Gardevoir, Heracross, Medicham, and other threats on Aegislash. The team was always weak to these Pokemon. Losing to these Pokemon is independent of Aegislash's status in OU; if you lose to them, the onus is on you.

I also do not know how you can consider the 50/50 argument nonsense. It is the exact argument that banned Tornadus-T from BW OU.

 

[InfinityX000]

Aegislash makes certain pokemon less viable, but also makes certain pokemon more viable. And many pokemon that Aegis supposedly makes "unviable" are still used, just slightly less. And among other things, Aegis has a list of checks to deal with it. You don't really have o sacrifice a pokemon slot or even a move slot sometimes to check it. Sure, it doesn't have a solid counter, but with so many checks, I don't see why it is so hyped. And Aegis doesn't force that many 50/50s. Many are just 50/25s in your favor. Because so many checks have eq or a special attack that 25% is a neutral outcome. It gets even better for you if you think about factors. And, since the only bad outcome is they attack and you don't, if you just attack and can take one hit, it is a 50/0 with 50 neutral (attack-KS, attack-attack). And just because it is hard to OHKO, that doesn't mean it is too op. And it is only hard to OHKO in shield form, and it needs KS to revert, which can be abused by going for a crippling status move. Aegis is for sure a good pokemon, but not overpowered or overcentralizing. it is slightly centralizing, but most teams already have a check.

 

[Jarrod]

The point is that you're seriously over dramatizing these prediction wars. Did you really just pretend a pokemon being able to switch is a reason to ban it? Next you'll want to ban sucker punch, because it undeniably has the same affect. Predictions aren't easy, but they've always been part of the game and Aegislash does not push it over the edge or whatever you think it does.

This. A thousand times this. I'm not sure how I'd vote if I made reqs, but I too am sick of "prediction war" arguments.

 

[Karxrida]

Your argument is the exact one I addressed. While it is true that there are probably defensive teams around with Aegislash, I implore you to find a successful one and show it to me. Aegislash has been used a grand total of zero times on defensive WCoP teams, which is possibly the highest level of play you will find. Furthermore, the theoretical team was always weak to those Pokemon. Aegislash is irrelevant. The weakness to said Mega Evolutions was always present. You cannot blame losing over and over again to Gardevoir, Heracross, Medicham, and other threats on Aegislash. The team was always weak to these Pokemon. Losing to these Pokemon is independent of Aegislash's status in OU; if you lose to them, the onus is on you.

I also do not know how you can consider the 50/50 argument nonsense. It is the exact argument that banned Tornadus-T from BW OU.

The best ways to deal with Aegislash all circumvent the King's Shield 50/50, and trying to deal with it otherwise is like spamming resisted contact moves on a Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn. I listed at least 10 Mons that all check Aegislash that are considered very relevant metagame threats that you will see frequently because of how good they are. It doesn't matter if they can't switch in; how many Mons can switch into a wallbreaker anyway?

Subject 18 Edit: Removed the "outplay the coinflip" mentions.

 

[Toljik]

The best ways to deal with Aegislash all circumvent the King's Shield 50/50, and trying to deal with it otherwise is like spamming resisted contact moves on a Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn. I listed at least 10 Mons that all check Aegislash that are considered very relevant metagame threats that you will see frequently because of how good they are. It doesn't matter if they can't switch in; how many Mons can switch into a wallbreaker anyway?

Your list is full of Pokemon that can deal with Aegislash under certain circumstances, but not many that can deal with all the common Aegislash variants. This means that Aegislash has almost complete control over what counters it.

SubToxic takes care of walls like Hippowdon. Shadow Ball and Shadow Sneak takes care of Greninja. Air Balloon lets it switch into the various Earthquake users. Automotize variants beat Bisharp and Diggersby. Head Smash helps it with Mandibuzz. Hell, if you're really desperate, Hidden Power Ice 1HKOs Landorus-T and Gliscor after SR, even with no investment.

I'm not saying that Aegislash can do all these things at once, or that all these sets are equally effective. But Aegislash can lure in and destroy most of its "counters" while its teammates take care of the rest. That stupidly easy teambuilding is why it is dominating OU.

 

[Rotosect]

Your list is full of Pokemon that can deal with Aegislash under certain circumstances, but not many that can deal with all the common Aegislash variants. This means that Aegislash has almost complete control over what counters it.

SubToxic takes care of walls like Hippowdon. Shadow Ball and Shadow Sneak takes care of Greninja. Air Balloon lets it switch into the various Earthquake users. Automotize variants beat Bisharp and Diggersby. Head Smash helps it with Mandibuzz. Hell, if you're really desperate, Hidden Power Ice 1HKOs Landorus-T and Gliscor after SR, even with no investment.

I'm not saying that Aegislash can do all these things at once, or that all these sets are equally effective. But Aegislash can lure in and destroy most of its "counters" while its teammates take care of the rest. That stupidly easy teambuilding is why it is dominating OU.

What. Greninja is going to use Dark Pulse against Aegislash. If anything Aegislash should be using Sacred Sword, assuming it's running it.

 

[Karxrida]

Your list is full of Pokemon that can deal with Aegislash under certain circumstances, but not many that can deal with all the common Aegislash variants. This means that Aegislash has almost complete control over what counters it.

SubToxic takes care of walls like Hippowdon. Shadow Ball and Shadow Sneak takes care of Greninja. Air Balloon lets it switch into the various Earthquake users. Automotize variants beat Bisharp and Diggersby. Head Smash helps it with Mandibuzz. Hell, if you're really desperate, Hidden Power Ice 1HKOs Landorus-T and Gliscor after SR, even with no investment.

I'm not saying that Aegislash can do all these things at once, or that all these sets are equally effective. But Aegislash can lure in and destroy most of its "counters" while its teammates take care of the rest. That stupidly easy teambuilding is why it is dominating OU.

Head Smash kills Aegislash and Automotize is a gimmick.
SubToxic only beats Hippowdon and Mandibuzz, and even then it's forced out by Whirlwind/Taunt. It's also hard countered by Bisharp.
Greninja is meant to deal with weakened Aegislash, I said it was a check for a reason.
Air Balloon means not running Lefties and doesn't let you beat Excadrill (only spin block and force out Scarfed ones), Lando (Psychic), or Garchomp (Stone Edge/Fire Blast). Hippowdon will just Whirlwind you out.
HP Ice is only good on the lure set for baiting Lando or said gimmicky Automotize.

All these sets have major opportunity costs associated with them that make Aegislash less effective against certain threats or let other Mons check/counter him. All of these checks/counters are, as I said, high ranked OU mons and it's not hard to find 2-3 checks to Aegislash on an opponent's team since many of them are extremely good together (like Lando+Keldeo+Bisharp or Zard Y+Hippowdon).

 

[Jarrod]

Your list is full of Pokemon that can deal with Aegislash under certain circumstances, but not many that can deal with all the common Aegislash variants. This means that Aegislash has almost complete control over what counters it.

SubToxic takes care of walls like Hippowdon. Shadow Ball and Shadow Sneak takes care of Greninja. Air Balloon lets it switch into the various Earthquake users. Automotize variants beat Bisharp and Diggersby. Head Smash helps it with Mandibuzz. Hell, if you're really desperate, Hidden Power Ice 1HKOs Landorus-T and Gliscor after SR, even with no investment.

I'm not saying that Aegislash can do all these things at once, or that all these sets are equally effective. But Aegislash can lure in and destroy most of its "counters" while its teammates take care of the rest. That stupidly easy teambuilding is why it is dominating OU.

Interestingly enough, sub-toxic Aegislash only takes care of Hippowdon and Greninja under certain circumstances. Air balloons can be popped, and Automize Aegislash can fall to Bisharp and Diggersby on many occasions. Clearly not all Aegislash run Head Smash (I know plenty do) nor does every Slash run HP Ice. So What you have essentially listed is Aegislash winning against the list of certain counters under certain circumstances. No one pokemon should be able to deal with all common variants of an S-ranked pokemon, otherwise there would be no such thing as S-rank - it's that simple. I am not anti-ban (nor am I pro-ban) so please understand that this comment is not biased by a love of Aegi.

 

[Shirou Saberfox]

It's also hard countered by Bisharp.
.

Hard to be a hard counter when Aegislash having Sacred Sword is a thing. And at least in my own experience, a pretty common thing.

 

[QuickBH]

Hard to be a hard counter when Aegislash having Sacred Sword is a thing. And at least in my own experience, a pretty common thing.

SubToxic sets don't carry Sacred Sword, which was Karxrida's point. Bisharp hard counters SubToxic Bisharp.

 

[Toljik]

Interestingly enough, sub-toxic Aegislash only takes care of Hippowdon and Greninja under certain circumstances. Air balloons can be popped, and Automize Aegislash can fall to Bisharp and Diggersby on many occasions. Clearly not all Aegislash run Head Smash (I know plenty do) nor does every Slash run HP Ice. So What you have essentially listed is Aegislash winning against the list of certain counters under certain circumstances. No one pokemon should be able to deal with all common variants of an S-ranked pokemon, otherwise there would be no such thing as S-rank - it's that simple. I am not anti-ban (nor am I pro-ban) so please understand that this comment is not biased by a love of Aegi.

I know that. I said that Aegislash can't handle everything at once or with equal effectiveness in my comment. My point isn't that Aegislash is uncounterable, it's that it has so much choice as to what its counters are that it's too easy to add onto teams. It's why Aegislash is #1.

Aegislash probably won't run Head Smash or HP Ice, but if the Aegislash user wants, Gliscor and Mandibuzz don't have to be counters to it.

 

[Sun King]

O.k, so why is this relevant. Who really cares if offense will get better, you can make such a claim about most pokemon in existence that if X leaves Y style will become better. Like, I have seen some good anti ban arguments, Starfall11 has a few of them, but seriously, your personal reason for keeping something OU would have to be one of the stupidest reasoning I have seen within this thread. I don't even see how your argument is even relevant to the suspect test process as a whole. If offence becomes "unhealthy" if Aegislash leaves, then obviously its due to a few pokemon pushing the envelope which promptly get banned. But by your own argument, offensive threats won't become broken...so there should be no problems, as according to you, offence will be more common and still be healthy (not broken), and I suspect stall will continue to be as good as it always is.

Remember alex, the metagame will ALWAYS adapt if something goes (heck, it adapts if something stays as well), shifting between being offensive and more defensive. Its a fact of the meta, but its NOT a reason to keep something OU, something I just confirmed with Haunter.

Why is this relevant? Do you really think that in a suspect test where the lines are so blurry people aren't going to vote for the type of metagame they want? It's completely relevant because you can't control why people are going to vote one way or another. Sure--you can tell them "only vote based on x, y, z" but at the end of the day, people are going to vote how they want to vote--not how they ought to vote. By that logic, the USA would have elected Mitt Romney president if they wanted to boost the economy more.

You're absolutely right that the meta always shifts after a ban. But when you say things like, "who really cares if offense gets better after the ban?"--well, actually, a sizeable chunk of people care. And if that's the reason they vote No Ban, that's going to be the reason. I think alexwolf was trying to highlight some of the implications of voting for a ban for people still on the fence. I, for one, think it's careless to make a decision like this without even considering the ramifications. As for what you said about "stall still being good"--well, if the word you meant by good was viable, then you're correct; stall will always be viable. Good, however, I believe is murky. Stall will now need to devote 2 slots on a team solely to get rid of 2 of the most potent wallbreakers I've ever faced.

EDIT: sorry, my finger slipped and I hit post prematurely.

Devoting those two slots will absolutely open defensive teams up to threats they previously could cover. So defensive players are likely going to vote no-ban because it's in their best interests. I haven't seen any arguments that sway my opinion on Aegislash's brokenness, so in a suspect as subjective as this, I believe a good amount of people will vote based on their opinions.

 

[Pocket]

I don't know how you can say that Aegislash doesn't cause more 50/50s than other Pokemon because that's an objective fact that every top player has commented on. King's Shield generates 50/50s by nature of its function, except Aegislash has an advantage because it has the 50/50 and -2 Atk. This is what differentiates KS 50/50s from other 50/50s. I can make a list of 50/50s on the spot concerning Aegislash vs other OU Pokemon.

Char X - Flare Blitz or DD?
Bisharp - Knock Off, Sucker Punch, or Pursuit?
Diggersby - SD or EQ?
Mega Gyarados - DD or EQ?

Agent Gibbs addressed this issue in his eloquent VR post. I'll copy-paste the relevant part:

However, keep in mind that not all 50/50s are weighted in Aegislash's favor. For example, let's consider offensive DD Charizard X vs TankSlash. You have four basic scenarios:

Neither attack: In this case, Charizard X now has a free Dragon Dance and will destroy Aegislash the next turn and possibly sweep afterwards. This is an extremely dangerous scenario that can cost the Aegislash user the game depending on the circumstances.

Charizard X attacks: Charizard X is now at -2, but it can still deal an upwards of ~74% damage to Aegislash with Flare Blitz while Aegislash returns about the same amount back with Shadow Ball. Your Aegislash still needs to be pretty healthy to comfortably tank the hit, and if Charizard X has enough remaining health to tank a Shadow Sneak afterwards, you're forced into another 50/50 the next turn. Overall, though, this is probably Aegislash's best scenario, even though it'll be badly crippled even if it beats Charizard X.

Aegislash attacks: Charizard S now has a Dragon Dance, but Aegislash just picked off a lot its health. However, you get into an even worse 50/50 the next turn. Even if you catch a Flare Blitz with King's Shield, -1 Charizard X still does tons of damage with Flare Blitz, having a small chance to KO even if Aegislash is missing just 2% of its health.

Both attack: Charizard X wins this and gets out without a scratch outside of the Flare Blitz recoil.

So in this example, Charizard X beats Aegislash in two scenarios, possibly even sweeping in another. Even in the ones where the Aegislash user predicts perfectly, he still might have to face another 50/50 later on and really wants his Aegislash to be at good health in order to safely take on Charizard X. The risk/reward balance is definitely in favor of the Charizard X user. Now, obviously this is an extreme example that does not represent the whole, but I picked it in order to show that not every 50/50 that Aegislash forces will be in its favor. Still, you have to admit that it's pretty ridiculous when you have a Pokemon as powerful as Charizard X who actually struggles at allagainst a Pokemon weak to its super effective STAB attack based on a single move like King's Shield.

tl;dr - these 50:50s are not actually 50:50s. In this exchange, there's no denying that Charizard X has the upper hand, with Aegislash forced on the defensive. Even if Aegislash uses King's Shield and Charizard X attacks and have its Attack dropped to -2, Charizard X is still doing ~70% damage to Aegislash the following turn. In certain scenarios, Aegislash's best option is to simply attack, because your team cannot afford Charizard X to gain a Speed boost, in which case it's not even 50:50, unless you're an extreme risk taker. You also haven't considered the additional options of either Aegislash or Charizard X switching out.

Also you mentioned other Pokemon where the move selection is not 50:50 in the slightest. The most egregious one is Bisharp, who has 0 drawbacks in spamming Knock Off thanks to Defiant. If eliminating Aegislash is high priority for your team, then Pursuit would probably be the safest choice to ensure that Aegislash is losing good chunk of its health. Mega Gyarados resists both Aegislash STAB moves, and have no drawback spamming EQ unless Aegislash is holding an Air Balloon (GL keeping the balloon intact, though). Watch out for Sacred Sword ofc, especially if it's a SD set. Mega Venusaur can use Sleep Powder or Leech Seed to bypass Aegislash's King's Shield.

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How does Aegislash invoke 50/50s when it has the option to 1) remain in Blade forme to Attack, 2) use King's Shield to regain Shield, 3) switch out to regain Shield? At this point it sounds like regular Pokemon to me. And yes, Pokemon is a game that frequently call for guesswork / "prediction." Should I make the obvious play and attack? Should I predict a switch to the obvious check and change moves / swap out? The same fundamental concept of Pokemon is applied to Aegislash.

And no, these "predictions" are not dice rolls. Usually if you weigh in the risk:reward of every situation, one option comes out on top over the other. That's the mathematical part of deciding your move. Then there's the "human side" of making your decision, where you gauge the player's pattern of how often he make risky/conservative plays or how aggresive/passive he plays. All of these analyses of the opponent player and the game situation helps a player to hone in on his or her decision. This is a type of "reading" skill that separates the powerful players from ordinary players. Against 2 high-leveled players this may seem to be reduced to dice rolls, but that's the nature of the game we call Pokemon, where we try to outsmart/bluff/guess our way to victory.

PS: I am not going to make any conclusive statement that Aegislash is broken or not, since it is indeed a very powerful and meta-defining Pokemon. That said, people should stop using "50:50 coinflips" as a justification to ban Aegislash.

I also do not know how you can consider the 50/50 argument nonsense. It is the exact argument that banned Tornadus-T from BW OU.

Aegislash doesn't have U-turn and 121 base Speed, though :O

 

[Jarrod]

I know that. I said that Aegislash can't handle everything at once or with equal effectiveness in my comment. My point isn't that Aegislash is uncounterable, it's that it has so much choice as to what its counters are that it's too easy to add onto teams. It's why Aegislash is #1.

Every pokemon has the choice to decide what it's counters are, obviously some more than others. Sub-Toxic Gliscor for example chooses to be walled by Gengar and Skarm. But if it wants, it could run knock off and taunt so that Skarm and Gengar are no longer threats. I am well aware that Aegislash has more choices than most other pokemon, but no more than it's fellow S-ranked competitors and some A+ mons. The one argument against this statement would be Aegislash's access to King's Shield/Stance change, but these tools are far less devastating than some people make them out to be (again, when comparing to similarly ranked pokemon).

The reality stands that Aegislash is an S-ranked pokemon and either decision (ban or no ban) would make some degree of sense. Results will simply reflect the individual motives of the voters. If people like Aegislash as the major force of OU, they will keep it that way. If people want a change, they will ban it. The OU will always have a king/queen and that's a fact.

 

[Baharoth]

Your argument is the exact one I addressed. While it is true that there are probably defensive teams around with Aegislash, I implore you to find a successful one and show it to me. Aegislash has been used a grand total of zero times on defensive WCoP teams, which is possibly the highest level of play you will find. Furthermore, the theoretical team was always weak to those Pokemon. Aegislash is irrelevant. The weakness to said Mega Evolutions was always present. You cannot blame losing over and over again to Gardevoir, Heracross, Medicham, and other threats on Aegislash. The team was always weak to these Pokemon. Losing to these Pokemon is independent of Aegislash's status in OU; if you lose to them, the onus is on you.

I also do not know how you can consider the 50/50 argument nonsense. It is the exact argument that banned Tornadus-T from BW OU.

The Wcop matches might be at the highest level of play but its also an incredibly small sample size and proves nothing. Probably the people there didnt expect to see one of these mons exactly because of Aegi or felt comfortable to be able to play around them somehow, i dont know. Fact is, if you want to have a good counter for them on your defensive team Aegi is the best choice there is and its not like he is only good for those 3, be it the standard tank or the sub toxic set both are totaly viable on any kind of defensive team. If you decide to be weak to them, thats fine but with Aegi around you dont have to. Without him you have no choice and it will arguably more costly because they will increase in viability with Aegi gone.

I adressed the 50/50 arguments several times already and i am honestly sick of reading them here if your interested go and read my posts.

 

[InfinityX000]

OU is resilient. Even if Aegis is banned, other pokemon will take its place. The fact is, Aegis is just one of many pokes players must watch out for when building a team. The only difference is that there is no pokemon that hard-counters each set. Don't mistake that for being unbeatable, or even that it is in any way worth more than 1 slot. It has very many checks, many of which a team might run anyway. Kinda like rapid spinners/defoggers. Many teams already have an excadrill or mandibuzz or something and all it takes is one move. And with aegis, somtimes it doesn't even do that! Garchomp and ZardY normally run EQ and Fire Blast. Don't mistake me for saying it isn't a threat, it just is no worse than certain other pokes.

 

[Toljik]

OU is resilient. Even if Aegis is banned, other pokemon will take its place. The fact is, Aegis is just one of many pokes players must watch out for when building a team. The only difference is that there is no pokemon that hard-counters each set. Don't mistake that for being unbeatable, or even that it is in any way worth more than 1 slot. It has very many checks, many of which a team might run anyway. Kinda like rapid spinners/defoggers. Many teams already have an excadrill or mandibuzz or something and all it takes is one move. And with aegis, somtimes it doesn't even do that! Garchomp and ZardY normally run EQ and Fire Blast. Don't mistake me for saying it isn't a threat, it just is no worse than certain other pokes.

Correction: if Aegis is banned, other, weaker Pokemon will take its place. Unless you're saying that Smogon miscalculated entirely and something else needs to be suspected right now (and I won't argue that), whatever will replace Aegislash will not be as powerful as Aegislash itself.

Maybe the terrors of Boo-Boo Keys and Baton Pass chains are so fresh in peoples' minds that they've forgotten what the garden variety "slightly too powerful" Pokemon looks like.

 

[The Quasar]

My little cent. I'm sure, this suspect is really justified. Aegi stats are remarkable because 150-150 Atk/sAtk or for 150-150 in Def/SDef is not easy to find in the same time.

Then first of all, Aegislash has two forms depending on moves used (King's Shield for Shield forme or other for Blade), thanks to Stance Change. King's Shield is an incredible resource. In fact, if an opponent targeted a contact move at the user of King's Shield, the opponent's Attack is lowered by two stages. So it's quite difficult to use physical attackers without worries.

Second, his versately is amazing like dangerous (for opponent), huge variety of very viable/playable sets.For example max Speed Aegislash can beat even Bisharp's Pursuit. And Bisharp can't even safely switch in vs all sets. Honorable mention is for SubToxic Leftovers set. Bulk, tank and power, just SD's set is also a "sword of Damocles", hunged on opponent team. And it's not the common set too.

Versatily. So much that it's quite impossible use some mons because they seems outclassed. Lucario is an example, Gardevoir or Terrakion could be others. And spinners like Starmie (because is always better use LO adamant Excadrill) too. He's surely centralizing the metagame, because you always have to pay attention to how strike back him, more than vs usually you have to do normally vs a s-rank.

I don't know what's the best way to do for it, really. He seems broken, i have to be honest.

 

[InfinityX000]

Correction: if Aegis is banned, other, weaker Pokemon will take its place. Unless you're saying that Smogon miscalculated entirely and something else needs to be suspected right now (and I won't argue that), whatever will replace Aegislash will not be as powerful as Aegislash itself.

Maybe the terrors of Boo-Boo Keys and Baton Pass chains are so fresh in peoples' minds that they've forgotten what the garden variety "slightly too powerful" Pokemon looks like.

Slightly weaker maybe. Or maybe just as strong but was being made slightly less viable by aegis. But you are missing the point. The point is that aegis isn't as bad as people think.

My little cent. I'm sure, this suspect is really justified. Aegi stats are remarkable because 150-150 Atk/sAtk or for 150-150 in Def/SDef is not easy to find in the same time.

Then first of all, Aegislash has two forms depending on moves used (King's Shield for Shield forme or other for Blade), thanks to Stance Change. King's Shield is an incredible resource. In fact, if an opponent targeted a contact move at the user of King's Shield, the opponent's Attack is lowered by two stages. So it's quite difficult to use physical attackers without worries.

Second, his versately is amazing like dangerous (for opponent), huge variety of very viable/playable sets.For example max Speed Aegislash can beat even Bisharp's Pursuit. And Bisharp can't even safely switch in vs all sets. Honorable mention is for SubToxic Leftovers set. Bulk, tank and power, just SD's set is also a "sword of Damocles", hunged on opponent team. And it's not the common set too.

Versatily. So much that it's quite impossible use some mons because they seems outclassed. Lucario is an example, Gardevoir or Terrakion could be others. And spinners like Starmie (because is always better use LO adamant Excadrill) too. He's surely centralizes the metagame, because you always have to pay attention to how strike back him, more than vs usually you have to do normally vs a s-rank.

I don't know what's the best way to do for it, really. He seems broken, i have to be honest.

Aegis relies on KS and that can be exploited. When they can't risk dying, it is a perfect time to switch or use something like will-o-wisp, or even boost. While its versatility is dangerous, there are pokemon that hardcounter one set and check all others, such as Bisharp, and some that are just great checks, such as Garchomp.
And about centralizing. People still use Starmie, Mega Gardevoir, and Terrakion, just slightly less. And many bad matchups, such as Latios/as and T-tar are still very viable. They all are suppressed slightly, but are still viable. Every king is centralizing to an extent. This one is not as centralizing as it is hyped to be. In fact, I think Aegis is healthy for the metagame, keeping certain pokemon in balance. Not saying that you make no sense, just saying what I think on some of those topics.

 

[Anduril]

My little cent. I'm sure, this suspect is really justified. Aegi stats are remarkable because 150-150 Atk/sAtk or for 150-150 in Def/SDef is not easy to find in the same time.

Then first of all, Aegislash has two forms depending on moves used (King's Shield for Shield forme or other for Blade), thanks to Stance Change. King's Shield is an incredible resource. In fact, if an opponent targeted a contact move at the user of King's Shield, the opponent's Attack is lowered by two stages. So it's quite difficult to use physical attackers without worries.

Second, his versately is amazing like dangerous (for opponent), huge variety of very viable/playable sets.For example max Speed Aegislash can beat even Bisharp's Pursuit. And Bisharp can't even safely switch in vs all sets. Honorable mention is for SubToxic Leftovers set. Bulk, tank and power, just SD's set is also a "sword of Damocles", hunged on opponent team. And it's not the common set too.

Versatily. So much that it's quite impossible use some mons because they seems outclassed. Lucario is an example, Gardevoir or Terrakion could be others. And spinners like Starmie (because is always better use LO adamant Excadrill) too. He's surely centralizes the metagame, because you always have to pay attention to how strike back him, more than vs usually you have to do normally vs a s-rank.

I don't know what's the best way to do for it, really. He seems broken, i have to be honest.

Starmie's viability is honestly hurt more by Greninja than Aegislash. Aegislash is centralizing, I'll give you that, but is checkable/counter able. It's reliance on KS and sometimes priority due to its low speed makes it only a very strong pokemon, not an OP one. It's defenses are also less than they seem with his base 60 hp. I say not broken and a healthy presence for the OU metagame.

 

[ginganinja]

Why is this relevant? Do you really think that in a suspect test where the lines are so blurry people aren't going to vote for the type of metagame they want? It's completely relevant because you can't control why people are going to vote one way or another. Sure--you can tell them "only vote based on x, y, z" but at the end of the day, people are going to vote how they want to vote--not how they ought to vote. By that logic, the USA would have elected Mitt Romney president if they wanted to boost the economy more.

You're absolutely right that the meta always shifts after a ban. But when you say things like, "who really cares if offense gets better after the ban?"--well, actually, a sizeable chunk of people care. And if that's the reason they vote No Ban, that's going to be the reason. I think alexwolf was trying to highlight some of the implications of voting for a ban for people still on the fence. I, for one, think it's careless to make a decision like this without even considering the ramifications. As for what you said about "stall still being good"--well, if the word you meant by good was viable, then you're correct; stall will always be viable. Good, however, I believe is murky. Stall will now need to devote 2 slots on a team solely to get rid of 2 of the most potent wallbreakers I've ever faced.

EDIT: sorry, my finger slipped and I hit post prematurely.

Devoting those two slots will absolutely open defensive teams up to threats they previously could cover. So defensive players are likely going to vote no-ban because it's in their best interests. I haven't seen any arguments that sway my opinion on Aegislash's brokenness, so in a suspect as subjective as this, I believe a good amount of people will vote based on their opinions.

Sure, some people might care, but the bottom line is that its not relevant. Under the rules of our suspect testing, we don't keep something in a tier because things might change if we ban it...its ridiculous. Sure, at the end of the day, people can choose to vote on what meta they like better, ignoring arguments on both sides, but we trust these people to weigh up both sides before making a decision. I don't quite get your actual post on this, because it seems to be like you are 100% sure people are going to use this logic to vote...and so what? Do you want us to do away with suspect testing altogether? On the subject at hand, alexwolf knows we don't use that logic for suspect testing (It took me all of 10 seconds to check with Haunter), hence I called him out because I know he can give much better anti ban arguments, that are relevant to the suspect test at hand.

In regards to your final paragraph, again, how is this relevant? If these wallbreakers are "that bad" as you claim, we simply get rid of them, if they are not "that bad", then by extension stall should be good, simply because if it was getting utterly trashed by these pokemon, understandably we would take a closer look at these wallbreakers. Sure, some people hate facing stall and all of that, but the team style has been very successful both on the ladder and in tourneys...and I doubt there is some kind of vendetta against stall that would prevent us suspect testing certain wallbreakers if they got too strong.

 

[Toljik]

Slightly weaker maybe. Or maybe just as strong but was being made slightly less viable by aegis. But you are missing the point. The point is that aegis isn't as bad as people think.


Aegis relies on KS and that can be exploited. When they can't risk dying, it is a perfect time to switch or use something like will-o-wisp, or even boost. While its versatility is dangerous, there are pokemon that hardcounter one set and check all others, such as Bisharp, and some that are just great checks, such as Garchomp.
And about centralizing. People still use Starmie, Mega Gardevoir, and Terrakion, just slightly less. And many bad matchups, such as Latios/as and T-tar are still very viable. They all are suppressed slightly, but are still viable. Every king is centralizing to an extent. This one is not as centralizing as it is hyped to be. In fact, I think Aegis is healthy for the metagame, keeping certain pokemon in balance. Not saying that you make no sense, just saying what I think on some of those topics.

The Aegislash user can exploit it, too. You can switch out on a predicted King's Shield, but if your opponent sees this coming you could be hit with a Shadow Ball from a base 150 Special Attack. This is the 50/50 situation other users warned about.

And it has a bigger impact on the metagame than you think, at least if you consider how many people ITT are terrified of Medicham and Gardevoir.