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np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition
- Thread starter gr8astard
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One can't take a Sacred Sword and does nothing if Aegislash has an intact Air Balloon, and the other is a niche Pokemon best suited for defensive teams (and gets half its viability from being able to handle Aegislash).
u wot m8
On the other hand, Assault Vest Torkoal is one of the best Aegislash counters in the game. Why hasn't anyone mentioned this yet?
252+ SpA Torkoal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 210-248 (64.8 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Torkoal: 144-169 (41.8 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
U also forgot SDef Gliscor and Amoonguss(which are the best IMO), both don't care about subtoxic or any set outside of Wallbreaker(which is supposed to break walls like this 2)
They're called CHECKS for a reason.
This is not very good logic honestly, cause you just put the situation completely in your favor lol. Also a lot of mons have niches in OU but that doesn't necessarily mean they're total shit. Chesnaught might not be something like Lando-I in terms of viability but it can be pretty solid. Also we're not at the point where AV torkoal is the only thing that stops Aegislash so yeah we know it's not a good choice and why would someone even consider that or mention it in the first place?
Checks that won't be checks if the Aegislash user chooses. Same with Hippo, Mandibuzz, Garchomp and Gliscor. Aegislash is free to choose which of those can check it and which ones can't. It's simply that good of a lure.
We've been going around in circles. People keep mentioning stuff that can only check some Aegislash sets. If Aegislash can tailor its set to defeat almost whatever it wants and use its teammates to handle the rest, how is that not broken?
Ugh you are repeating old logic. Both sides have said what they need to say about that. Don't talk in circles. Read older posts for my answer to that. And Garchomp always checks given a free switch, and Air Balloon isn't exactly a lure. It kinda screams "Hey! I'm right here, floating!"
I have. Your argument was that lure Aegislash sets are subpar.
And they are in general, but Aegislash's lure sets are still very, very good. They do what they need to do, which is defeat an Aegislash check one-on-one. In some cases they defeat many normal Aegislash checks one-on-one. Automotize or Air Balloon or Hidden Power Ice may not be the best choice for your Aegislash, but on teams that really need Gliscor or Mandibuzz or Bisharp gone, those sets work.
Checks will always be checks because checks are meant to not take damage from the attacker. I think you should probably lurk a bit, as you clearly don't have a clear definition of the difference between a check and counter. In the most simple terms, a counter is capable of switching into attacks while a check will come in cleanly. Meaning that all these mons have to do is maintain a higher speed than aegi and have a move to hit him for SE damage to be a check. Other sorts of checks could be slower and just KO after absorbing a hit.
Now, if Breloom can run HP flying to beat Chesnaught and Amoongus on the switch (Specs Tech HP Flying mind you) and this is now taking care of two of the more accepted counters, how is this not broken? By your logic, it is. However, We all understand specs loom is garbage and I doubt you'd even find it on the low ladder. While a much more extreme case than Aegi, aegi still gives up some viability to take on "counters". Paving the way for different mons to take care of it. And because it doesn't have one set taking all it's counters (aka making "A" set and then another set to counters of A), you'll find often enough that another aegi counter simply takes care of your already slightly suboptimal set because you countered the wrong mon for that game.
In that sense, these odd sets are a bit (at least a bit) suboptimal. Were they just as effective as the first set (SubToxic/Crumbler being the 'first' sets), then all of the sudden you have a case. However, head smash simply doesn't match subtoxic under any scenario. HP ice doesn't, either. To be completely honest, Aegi isn't the first thing you worry about when you come in with a defensive team. After everything stall/balance/semistall has to worry about, Aegi is pretty far down that list. The counters aren't even that bad. You don't hear many people saying "Oh no, you're forced to use one of Gliscor, Mandibuzz, Amoongus, Chesnaught, Hippowdon or Venusaur-Mega! You poor thing!"
Because
A: Aegislash's lure sets are not garbage. Like you said, they sacrifice just a bit of effectiveness. Do not compare Head Smash Aegislash to Choice Specs Breloom.
B: unlike Breloom, Aegislash can take out a wide variety of its checks effectively, not just two.
Breloom isn't a good example. I prefer Mega Lucario, who can effortlessly defeat whatever it wants by tailoring its moveset and got banned for it.
Considering that M-Lucario could floor teams much more efficiently than Aegislash would hope for, that still isn't a good comparison. We never said the lure sets are garbage, simply sub optimal. But yeah all the stuff I would say has already been said much better by other people on this thread so go read through that.
It can beat some checks, but it will open a ton of new checks. The more specialized it gets the less general effectiveness it has.
Oh I want to beat Mandi, so I slap Head Smash on Aegi. Cool, now Mandi won't stop me anymore, but what should I give up? Shadow Ball his main STAB? Shadow Sneak which gives you the ability to finish off weakened things? Or maybe you want to give up Sacred Sword that gives you perfect neutral coverage?
If you take any of those moves, something is going to kill Aegi without many problems
Let's analyze this situation. First, in order to be more precise, Garchomp doesn't have Fire Blast, nor can Stone Edge KO Aegislash not even in Blade Form, so if Garchomp does this, it will be KOed by Shadow Ball. More precisely, Garchomp is at 50% (enough to be KOed by Shadow Ball) and Aegislash is at 40% (which is not enough to be KOed by Stone Edge in Blade Form so it can scout it with King's Shield first and follow up with Shadow Ball)
Ostensibly, this is a 50/50. (since there is no information asymmetry regarding the movesets and it doesn't seem EVs spreads are relevant), and that is the nature of using Choiced-locked Earthquake since you are essentially guessing whether it would stay in or give you a free switch or KOing Aegislash. I do not know what "checks both" means. Is it another Choiced Pokemon that can check both Pokemon but with different moves?
Here are the possible outcomes:
1) Attack with Chomp with EQ
Reward: KO Aegislash although this reward is reduced since you opponent can sent in something (say Landorus at full health) that is not affected by Earthquake, which would normally force Garchomp out if it needs to be used later.
Risk: free switch for Landorus that can take an EQ
2) Switch
Reward: a free switch into something that KOs Aegislash and your opponent's threat (let's say a a LO Keldeo at 80%)
Risk: a Shadow Ball to your check and this compromises its ability to check the Aegislash and another threat
So, in my particular scenario where I used specific Pokemon as a means for clarification, why not sac the Garchomp and allow it to get Shadow Balled (I am assuming you brought it out and it is not locked in yet) so you could bring in whatever that can check both threats or allow it to get killed by Landorus. (However, the worst case scenario against Landorus is that if it uses Calm Mind once, it can avoid the OHKO from LO Scald, which more powerful than Icy Wind, if there are no hazards or prior damage. If you futilely use EQ against it, then it can get off two Calm Minds have a 69% chance to survive a Hydro Pump, assuming it hits. But this is an example of information asymmetry since it is not a given that it is using Calm Mind and it is practically impossible to know if it is has Calm Mind based on the composition of the team. You could potentially allow Lando to sweep you, but this is a calculated risk, around 22% in the usage statistics, based contingent on whether Landorus has Calm Mind.)
Also, if you have another Pokemon that can act as death fodder, you can switch into the other after threat after Garchomp scores the KO or allow Aegislash to KO the fodder offering. You should realize that your opponent could use Aegislash as death fodder to give in a free switch for that threat as I elaborated on the CM Lando-I example.
Thus, it would seem that keeping Keldeo at good health, by not risking it taking Shadow Ball, is imperative and it is worth sacrificing Garchomp. This is perhaps the dominant approach and is not a 50/50 since Keldeo's speed trumps Lando-I. Also note that LO Keldeo's Scald does 37.3 - 43.8% to Quiet Aegislash in Shield Form in order to fulfill the conditions for it to be "something that checks/revenges both aegislash and that other threat".
I would think that optimally, not just the Aegislash 50/50s, that decisions with no dominant equilibrium would largely be seen indifferently in numerous particular instances. "Indifferently" means that the previous events in the battle does not influence one's decision making process for in a particular instance; the only thing that is relevant is the information available to both players at that particular moment and the payoffs for potential decisions. A player should not make his/her decision making processes exploitable by opponent (so one would not give up an excess number of free turns or having "leaks" in poker) and accurate prediction merely is exploiting patterns in one's opponent's decision making process (if they exist) or guessing correctly. If there are no exploitable patterns, then prediction is merely guessing and it doesn't seem any different from flipping a coin or using an RNG.
A: 50% recoil without any recovery and slow speed stat, IMO, equal garbage.. not to mention it REQUIRES SR on the field and life orb to have any hoping of killing mandibuzz. Aegislash doesn't even have taunt, recover, roost, or a viable rest talk set. Rotom can nail alot of things with specs, will-o-wisp, trick scarf, and has a good chesto rest recovery making it something capable of really crippling teams. Aegislash will end up crippling and killing itself atemping to KO checks.
B: Aegislash can only take out checks on the switch.. jolly bisharp with little speed EVs are guarenteed to nail something with knock off if it gets a free switchin. Which requires prediction to be successful.. prediction being something normal and recommended in pokemon if you ever played it before. As I ran calcs before.. max speed aegislash just gains even more counters as defensive pokemon like heatran will eat a sacred sword and nuke the blade forme with lava plume.
That breloom set sounds gimmicky, idk if it's actually a thing but.. a pokemon with an ability that boost it's stats (not to mention an ability to boost prior to mega evo), strong priority, 135 base speed!!! and coverage that actually hits several mons rather than a single moveslot wasted just for one check (which was basicly nothing but sash technition breloom mach punch..) does not share a single resemblence to aegislash whatsoever.
Those possible outcomes sound more like everytime I see a bisharp when I use a spec latios.. I either death fodder and risk a sucker punch and gain momentum without risk of knock off crippling a more important pokemon..
Or.. I switch guessing he'll think I'll stay in and sucker punch.. and still gain momentum while keeping a pokemon alive, keep an item, and nail the bisharp.. OR start doing some more guessing a.k.a. prediction game and setup or predict and attack a switch in counter for some damage.. and repeat the cycle the entire match. 50/50 prediction war going on here..
Prediction and guessing are the same thing pretty much.. in reality every move we make is a guess as players may play stupid inorder to trick you into making the wrong moves.
Much like carrying protect to scout a choice lock.. either stay in and risk taking the hit, or switch to take the hit better or nothing at all.. or that and then they switch along with you to gain momentum and predict the pokemon you switched into inorder to take the choice locked whatever. Gliscors cause this all the time, especially in scarf/specs rotom vs. gliscor situations were it can check to see if it'll burn or hydropump. (burn will eliminate toxic orb)
How is aegislash any different? Not at all.
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idk how you call this an argument
First things first, Bisharp isn't a counter, its a check. If you want to list 100% hard counters, Sp.Def Gliscor and Amoongus are the way to go, not even mentioning the many other counters running around. Therefore, your entire argument is invalid, prediction isn't grounds for removal. I can walk in with some random shitmon and win a match because 100% predictions, should I say "ban pls, too op"?. No, we all know in a real match this will rarely happen, you're supposed to be facing an equal opponent, not some 1400 rank shit. How the fuck do I need to run 2 or 3 pokemon to even beat Aegislash anyway. I just listed two 100% counters but there are many more soft counters and a hefty amount of viable checks, I could easily run any of these things and not be fucked over by Aegi, unlike mons like Gene, where I had to run Heatran to not get anally raped and even then STAB U-Turn or a surprise HP Ground meant it couldn't always do the job. Not only that, it's not like if you lose that counter you're dead, you can still play around it, its not the nuke you people make it out to be.
The person who defined Sp.Def Gliscor as a gimmick just for Aegi needs to reevaluate their definition of gimmick. Sp.Def Gliscor was, first of all, made more specifically for Landorus-I, it just happens to wall many other threats, including Aegislash and is very effective on both stall and balance, thus not a gimmick. A gimmick is something like Head Smash Aegi, something that is specifically made for one mon, sacrifices itself in the process and has little use outside of that, but to you pro-ban people it's "new meta" and op.
Please stop overstating Aegislash. It is certainly good and one of the top mons in the meta but it's not that hard to check or counter and doesn't wreck your team if given a free turn. It may have good offensive and defensive stats but low base power moves and HP mean that they aren't as good as they have been made out to be. Furthurmore, this whole, "If I don't run a counter I lose" mentality only goes so far. That argument only holds water if using particular coverage/mons force an extreme disadvantage for the overall team in any match other than one against Aegi, similar to the conditions BP forced. Is it hard to fit any particular coverage move for without seriously affecting the teams chances against other teams? I don't think so. Fire coverage has been used for eons to deal with walls like Ferro and Skarm. EQ has also been used for ages to deal with many types and is very widely distributed. Ghost and Dark have even been buffed in the transition to XY and recieve good usage as coverage and STAB.
RoyalDispenser I feel like you're missing the point of fast SD Head Smash Aegislash. First off, Mandibuzz may be able to survive an unboosted Head Smash, but gets OHKOed should it switch into Stealth Rock or, you know, Swords Dance. Head Smash also allows Aegi to smash Skarmory (good news for Mega Pinsir!) and OHKO things like Zapdos and Gyarados (more good news!). SD Aegislash is meant to pose a large threat to almost any slower mon that isn't a bulky Ground-type, with the speed investment allowing to outrun as much Pokes as it can, including mons like Venusaur, defensive Rotom-W, and defensive Arcanine (that's uninvested base 95 yo! Heck, it outruns uninvested base 100s too but they hardly run zero speed). The fast Shadow Sneaks also allow Aegislash to play mindgames against Sucker Punch Mega-Mawile, something other Aegislashes cannot do (as easily).
Honestly, I think both sides are either: Over stating Aegislash's abilities or understating them. That being said, the sheer diversity combined with effectiveness of wht Aegislash is what has bought be over to the pro-ban side. I don't think a pokemon could possibly be healthy to have around when it does so many set to an unmatched level of success.
Also: Fast Head Smash Aegislash is a beast when used correctly, as Punchshroom has said, it really helps clear the way for Mega-Pinsir.
Also: Fast Head Smash Aegislash is a beast when used correctly, as Punchshroom has said, it really helps clear the way for Mega-Pinsir.
Head Smash=50% recoil.. congratz you killed a mandibuzz and now have a half dead aegislash. Also The fact you need stealth rocks to accomplish that goal just adds to the idea of aegislash requiring some team support.
For skarmory.. it does not 2HKO.. and skarmory has roost, something aegislash doesn't and will only recieve recoil trying.. Infact same case scenario as mandibuzz without rocks.. only a little better.
252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 136-161 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Zapdos I personally don't see too many of.. nor would aegislash outspeed zapdos at all and would require head smash on switch-in.. making the extra speed useless and again slash at half health.
Unless aegislash is running a -Spe nature.. he'll outspeed sucker punch mawile reguardless.. 50 base speed vs. 60..
Arcanine isn't OU so pointless arguement there..
gyarados will intimidate and mega evo losing rock type weakness.. free dragon dance basicly.
Pinsir always outspeeds, need to hit the switch in and again have half your health missing.
Like RoyalDispenser said, you're basically killing yourself to deal with specific threats while also killing your overall effectiveness, which is a pretty fair (read: not ban worthy) trade.
I can even go as far as to say that the SD set is a very good reason to NOT ban it specifically for that reason.
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252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 140-166 (33 - 39.1%) -- 11.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
That is not doing nearly as much damage, as mandibuzz can just roost of the damage (it doesnt 2hko after rocks lol). Mandibuzz is pretty much the only mon that aegi hits with head smash anyway
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 330-390 (77.8 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
And jolly max speed (that's what the speedy set is, right?) outspeeds uninvested mandi
Aegislash @ Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- King's Shield
- Swords Dance
- Rock Slide
- Shadow Sneak
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- King's Shield
- Swords Dance
- Rock Slide
- Shadow Sneak
This set has horrible coverage, it may kill mandibuzz but then it'd surely get walled by many other threats (tyranitar,heatran, quagsire, etc.) and btw head smash>rock slide, since mandibuzz can still beat aegi with a set like that on the switch if it has full life.
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