Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

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Karxrida

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So...where does priority matter against something that's main use is breaking stall? Is Gengar bad too, then? After all, it takes these blows about as well as MGarde does, with the obvious exception of ESpeed from Dragonite. And it's not designed to take physical attacks; it can definitely avoid OHKOs on the special side though. Keldeo, Thundurus, Landorus lacking Sludge Wave, and Greninja all fail to OHKO. At any rate, if "too frail" is a thing with wallbreakers, then Diggersby's certainly in the wrong spot. And Valmanway, it was just an example of how much crap it can do, though it prefers to just use Taunt or Calm Mind; although I did forget a big one in that post, Will-O-Wisp.
Gengar has a better speed tier and can actually get away with running Will-O-Wisp, Sub, AND Taunt on the same set because Shadow Ball is so spammable and it can still pressure offense with faster burns.
 
Nominating Cresselia for C+ rank. While its still a bit underwhelming, Cresselia is a solid pokemon on stall teams as it can shut down CM Landorus and sponge attacks from other powerful threats such as Kyurem Black, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Medicham, Excadrill, Mega Garchomp, and Mega Charizard X who needs +1 Flare Blitz to 2hko Bold 252/252 Cresselia. Its bulk also allows it to act well as a supporting pivot on balanced and semi stall teams, spreading paralysis around with Thunder Wave and setting up manual weather as it can heal off damage so it can forgo leftovers without a huge problem. Cresselia does have trouble running enough moves and its low speed makes it easier to taunt, but it still is a solid niche choice on more defensive oriented teams.
 

Jaiho

bandy legged troll
Gengar has a better speed tier and can actually get away with running Will-O-Wisp, Sub, AND Taunt on the same set because Shadow Ball is so spammable and it can still pressure offense with faster burns.
I dont really have an opinion on M-Garde, but Gengar is a higher rank, so you can't really compare the two
 
Been wanting to Nominate Klefki for B- for a while now, but the deo bans pushed me over the edge.

Lets start by defining a b rank pokemon:

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.
Now klefki certainly has notable flaws, like it's weakness to taunt, common weaknesses, and middling stats.

However klefki is free to focus ev's due to prankster, helping out it's bad stats, while it can always double it's weaker defense on turn one.

It also has prankster thunder wave, saving it from being set-up bait, and can set spikes if it's against something it walls.

Klefki only needs a defog absorber to funtion, and can easily set up spikes and screens.

I made this post about klefki for B-, but it got absorbed in a cloyster/slippery slope argument.

Guess it was pretty poor, since it got a lot of pity likes, but Im bringing it back up anyway, since I think it could pull it off.
 
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Probably wont get that much support, due to the popularity of this mon, but oh well i'll give it a go.

Nominating Volcarona for D rank.
I was dissapointed seeing as how while the viability threads lower rankings were revamped, volcarona managed to dodge any sort of discussion. I'm reasoning it towards the immense popularity this mon garners, but I feel volcarona is possibly the worst sweeper in this list, bar cloyster. For starters, volcarona can not set up well at all against common OU threats. while volcarona CAN set up against some great mons such as ferrothorn, aegislash, and scizor, volcarona is more than often not so easily forced out it's hardly worth that. so many things easily revenge a +1 volc, from flying spam to prankster twaves to things like azumarill not really caring what it can do, volcarona has huge issues dealing with some revenge killers, which bring me to my next point.

Fire/Bug is HORRIBLE coverage. Believe me when i say this, volcarona is constantly walled by almost every relevant pokemon in OU. quiver dance is generally a must, as to not be outclassed by charizard Y, which means volcarona only has 3 moveslots to actually put to use. if volcarona uses dual stab, he's walled by whatever he doesnt use for his final moveslot. Running hp ice means azumarill and zard X easily set up, while running giga drain means dragonite and char X STILL easily set up on whatever volc wants to do. Not to mention one of the most popular mons in OU, heatran, completely and utterly trolls anything volc can do barring HP ground, and hp ground volc has even more coverage issues than his other 2 common sets.

Some other issues for volcarona include poor physical bulk, an overcrowded speed tier, and a HUGE 4x stealth rock weakness WITHOUT a spikes immunity, which unlike zard Y and talonflame, i feel volcarona's positives just dont justify such a horrid weakness to entry hazards. Volcarona is cool for being able to set up on a variety of steel type threats, but Why not just use Zard X for that instead, who boast better typing, much more damage output, eons of better bulk, and great coverage with just it's stabs. Volcarona hasn't even recieved any WCOP usage, which would be an ideal place for it to shine thanks to the surprise factor, but his negatives just outweigh the positive ones, unlike mons who DID recieve usage such as celebi or goodra.

TL:DR, volc is outclassed and nicheless. D rank pluz.
 
Probably wont get that much support, due to the popularity of this mon, but oh well i'll give it a go.

Nominating Volcarona for D rank.
I was dissapointed seeing as how while the viability threads lower rankings were revamped, volcarona managed to dodge any sort of discussion. I'm reasoning it towards the immense popularity this mon garners, but I feel volcarona is possibly the worst sweeper in this list, bar cloyster. For starters, volcarona can not set up well at all against common OU threats. while volcarona CAN set up against some great mons such as ferrothorn, aegislash, and scizor, volcarona is more than often not so easily forced out it's hardly worth that. so many things easily revenge a +1 volc, from flying spam to prankster twaves to things like azumarill not really caring what it can do, volcarona has huge issues dealing with some revenge killers, which bring me to my next point.

Fire/Bug is HORRIBLE coverage. Believe me when i say this, volcarona is constantly walled by almost every relevant pokemon in OU. quiver dance is generally a must, as to not be outclassed by charizard Y, which means volcarona only has 3 moveslots to actually put to use. if volcarona uses dual stab, he's walled by whatever he doesnt use for his final moveslot. Running hp ice means azumarill and zard X easily set up, while running giga drain means dragonite and char X STILL easily set up on whatever volc wants to do. Not to mention one of the most popular mons in OU, heatran, completely and utterly trolls anything volc can do barring HP ground, and hp ground volc has even more coverage issues than his other 2 common sets.

Some other issues for volcarona include poor physical bulk, an overcrowded speed tier, and a HUGE 4x stealth rock weakness WITHOUT a spikes immunity, which unlike zard Y and talonflame, i feel volcarona's positives just dont justify such a horrid weakness to entry hazards. Volcarona is cool for being able to set up on a variety of steel type threats, but Why not just use Zard X for that instead, who boast better typing, much more damage output, eons of better bulk, and great coverage with just it's stabs. Volcarona hasn't even recieved any WCOP usage, which would be an ideal place for it to shine thanks to the surprise factor, but his negatives just outweigh the positive ones, unlike mons who DID recieve usage such as celebi or goodra.

TL:DR, volc is outclassed and nicheless. D rank pluz.
Volc could run Giga Drain for recovery, and be able to kill non AV zum 1 252+ SpA Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 332-392 (82.1 - 97%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 

Aragorn the King

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All of its flaws are what's keeping it away from B rank or A rank, not what make it D rank and "nicheless." It still is a threatening set up sweeper; 135 Special Attack is insane, 100 Speed is great on a set up sweeper, and it even has great special bulk. It of course has flaws, like the mediocre at best physical bulk, Stealth Rock weakness, and Aqua Jet weakness, but again, these are factors that, in my opinion, make it an effective but often over-shadowed Pokemon, not one without a niche or with a small niche. It's very comparable to Togekiss, Blastoise, and Shuckle. They're all very unique and provide support to a team, but just aren't as effective as they'd like to be. It's a combination of a hostile metagame, a Stealth Rock weakness, and a niche/niches that aren't extremely metagame defining that gives these otherwise solid Pokemon the mediocre C rank. Pokemon in the D rank have no real niche, like Roserade, are almost completely outclassed, like Blissey, or generally aren't that good at what they're supposed to do, like Moltres, but can be used on select teams, given support. Volcarona really doesn't fit in this category, as it's the only offensive Quiver Dancer. That provides it with a useful niche and prevents it from being outclassed. The metagame is hostile to it, but that's why it's being compared Rotom-H, not Azumarill.

Also, I don't know why you're saying Volcarona should be running Bug Buzz. It offers very little coverage on a Pokemon that needs it, and is generally useless, outside of hitting Latios, who you beat at +1 anyway. The standard set uses Fiery Dance, Giga Drain, and HP Ground, which beats most of its checks and counters. It struggles somewhat more against Tyranitar, but you really should never use Volcarona against a Tyranitar anyway.

Volcarona has a niche, isn't outclassed, and can be effective, yet is hurt by one low stat, its defense, and a poor defensive typing. This makes me believe it fits perfectly in the C+ rank with Pokemon like Shuckle, Thundurus-T, Togekiss, Hydreigon, and Starmie; they all suffer in the metagame about the same. Comparing it to extremely niche, but viable, Pokemon like Mantine, Arcanine, Empoleon, Banette, Blissey is just wrong, in my opinion.
 
Volc could run Giga Drain for recovery, and be able to kill non AV zum 1 252+ SpA Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 332-392 (82.1 - 97%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
AV azu is getting extremely common nowadays, and it appears you have failed to understand my post completely, as I never said volc couldnt beat azu, just that if volc chooses to beat azu, its set up bait for 2 of the most deadly dragon dancers in the tier as a result of it's subpar coverage, as volc can barely touch either of them even at +3.
 
Also, and this was suggested a few pages ago, but I support Suicune moving up. So many teams just have nothing for Suicune at all, in fact, (and I don't know if it's just me), but most of my teams just auto-lose to it. Sure it's a little inconsistent due to Sleep Talk rolls, but once everything that can take it out during one Rest cycle is gone, (and not all that much can), than it basically wins bar crits. Someone actually asked it to be compared to other B+ ranks, but honestly, I feel it more comparable to Clefable, at least the Crocune and CM Magic Guard sets respectively : both are really solid win conditions with great defensive typings and are "immune" to status or at least not stopped by it, but Suicune has more overall bulk in excange for a buch of turns where it it vunerable and has to rely on luck, and only has one offensive move to use, so is not quite as good overral. Still, it's a pretty solid win condition and Scald burns can make it very difficult to break. I've also heard of an offensive CM set, but haven't actually used it so I can't really comment on it.
I think Suicune is better than Clefable. Scald burns give him a use early game, and late game he's a lot harder to stop. Only water absorb mons can truly stop him -- none of which are OU right now (except maybe Vaporeon? if Vap is OU now he won't be for long). Clefable is hard stopped by Heatran, who is everywhere.

But it's like arguing for Torn-T -- Suicune fits a play style most people just don't like to use.
 
Why is your volcarona running a bug stab? Thought that was a big no no. The problem is it's terrible movepool forcing it to run something like HP ice or get walled by half the tier.
 
I think Suicune is better than Clefable. Scald burns give him a use early game, and late game he's a lot harder to stop. Only water absorb mons can truly stop him -- none of which are OU right now (except maybe Vaporeon? if Vap is OU now he won't be for long). Clefable is hard stopped by Heatran, who is everywhere.
A small nitpick but having a water immunity alone won't save you from Suicune. Because of Pressure and Rest, Water Absorb mons can just be PP stalled by Resting and not using sleep talk, each time you do that, Suicune use one PP while forcing them to use six. You would need to combine Water immunity with some way of removing its boosts or doing damage to it faster than it can recover it off. All that Water Absorb helps with is making sure Suicune can't KO before you check it the same way any other check would.

Edit
Vaporeon can't really be stalled out, especially if you switch back and forth between another mon while Suicune is resting. It gets into a lot of mind games and technically the Suicune user can win if he plays way better than the other guy, but it's not a favorable match up for Suicune.
In this case, just hit sleep talk, and you'll probably catch their second mon one of the the switches eventually, unless it's also water immune then you can stall out Suicune.

Though in reality, 90% of the time when I start PP stalling, the opponent just forfeits in a few turns.
 
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A small nitpick but having a water immunity alone won't save you from Suicune. Because of Pressure and Rest, Water Absorb mons can just be PP stalled by Resting and not using sleep talk, each time you do that, Suicune use one PP while forcing them to use six. You would need to combine Water immunity with some way of removing its boosts or doing damage to it faster than it can recover it off. All that Water Absorb helps with is making sure Suicune can't KO before you check it the same way any other check would.
Vaporeon is hard to stall out, especially if you switch back and forth between another mon while Suicune is resting. Suicune is mostly going to be spamming Calm Mind as the Vaporeon user will likely not attack directly and give Cune a chance to rest -- but Vaporeon can haze or roar to get rid of the boosts (and Calm Mind's precious PP).

Not every Vap set is a hard counter but it's not a good match up for the Cune.

That said... it's kind of irrelevant. Vaporeon is pretty low on usage last time I checked.
 
Why is your volcarona running a bug stab? Thought that was a big no no. The problem is it's terrible movepool forcing it to run something like HP ice or get walled by half the tier.
first two sets listed on volcaronas QC have bug stab, so i'm going by that. And volcarona only gets one hidden power, which means running hp ice means he's still completely walled by half the tier, with fire types being volcs main problems.
 

Aragorn the King

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first two sets listed on volcaronas QC have bug stab, so i'm going by that. And volcarona only gets one hidden power, which means running hp ice means he's still completely walled by half the tier, with fire types being volcs main problems.
It hasn't been updated in forever. This is the QC approved set, which is also its best chance at being effective in OU.

Anyway, I agree with the Suicune rise. It's a very good Pokemon, as it always has been. It's very hard to break physically, and impossible to break specially at +1 or +2 for STAB super effective hits. Its flaws are that it's very week unboosted and relies heavily on Sleep Talk choosing a good move. However, it has great longevity and is a very good bulky sweeper for stall, balance, and bulky offensive teams. It requires very little support; about the same as any bulky water. When comparing it to Slowbro, it has a better typing and better offensive presence, while Slowbro has more reliable recovery. Even though they perform different roles, I believe they should be tiered the same.

Tornadus-I, however, I don't agree with a rise. It needs to choose if it's powerful or bulky; it can't be both at the same time. The Assault Vest set is relatively weak, relies on moves with poor accuracy, and can't handle Aegislash as well as someone was making it out to be. It can't beat physical sets, does pitiful damage with Knock Off (and threatens an attack drop with King's Shield), and can't very viably run Heat Wave. The Rain Sweeper set is also good. Its moves gain significant power and accuracy, but it loses its good special bulk. It still has Regenerator, but it can't take hits as well as it wood like, especially with Life Orb. I think B+ is its ideal position.
 
Supporting Suicune moving up. Suicune can just sweep so easily after everything that can 2HKO it, Water Absorbers (lol), and the pink blobs are gone, and 2HKOing it is very difficult. Even at +0 SDef, it takes a 120 BP STAB move coming off 153 base SAtk with a boosting nature to guarantee the 2HKO on it using neutral special hits. SE physical hits are nonexistent outside of Ferrothorn and Defiant Thundurus, which do this to it:
4 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 162-192 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Thundurus Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 229-273 (56.6 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So it can't set up on Ferrothorn, but Ferrothorn can't stop it after setup. Defiant Thundurus will, however, be able to revenge kill it, but that is only found on 1.701126447% of teams, and some of those Defiant Thundurus don't carry Wild Charge for some reason. Neutral physical hits, however, must be 120 BP STAB moves coming off a base 161 Atk with a boosting nature to guarantee the 2HKO. After it has some setup, it gets almost impossible to kill using special hits, and can beat everything barring the pink blobs, which it has to PP stall.
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
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I made this post about klefki for B-, but it got absorbed in a cloyster/slippery slope argument.

Guess it was pretty poor, since it got a lot of pity likes, but Im bringing it back up anyway, since I think it could pull it off.
Seconding this. Prankster lets Klefki invest in bulk so it can screen more than once, and it can cripple any Defogger not named Zapdos with T-Wave (which also works as a emergency sweeper check). Its typing means it resists E-Speed and Brave Bird so you can set up in front of Dragonite and Talonflame.

Oh, and it makes a great Bisharp partner since it can switch into the Latis, scout for HP Fighting, and cripple them with T-Wave. Plus priority Spikes is always awesome.
 
Gengar has a better speed tier and can actually get away with running Will-O-Wisp, Sub, AND Taunt on the same set because Shadow Ball is so spammable and it can still pressure offense with faster burns.
Mega Gardevoir heavily pressures teams with its massive 165 Special Attack and extremely strong Pixilate STAB Hyper Voice that goes past Substitutes; in other words, like Gengar's Shadow Ball, this is a heavily spammable move, but moreso for its sheer power rather than coverage, which is still excellent on its own, hitting Dragon-, Fighting- and Dark-type Pokémon supereffectively. Running Taunt means it can stop walls and stalling Pokémon, while all it'd need as coverage are Psyshock (Chansey) and Focus Blast (Steel-types). Will-O-Wisp may not stop Mega Gardevoir from being 2HKOed by some things, but it at least leaves a lasting mark on its opponent by burning them. A crippled sweeper is a crippled sweeper, there's no way around that.
Also, your calculations are all flawed, since Mega Gardevoir runs 24 EVs in Defense.
 

Jukain

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o.k so ive used mega gardevoir a lot and really it shouldn't be higher than b+. it has a bunch of limitations. firstly aegislash, which is on so many teams, is a tough nut for it to crack. it needs all of hyper voice / psyshock / focus blast / taunt or cm to break stall, so other things aren't really options unless you want to compromise that matchup. mega scizor is also really common, and sr/scarf drill is all over the place. furthermore, it is easily revenged/gets few switch-ins against offense due to its poor physical bulk and not enough bulk on the special side combined with mediocre speed. this basically gives it a good matchup vs stall, but an honestly shit matchup vs offense. one thing i haven't mentioned is it's reliant on focus blast to get past various of its checks, which often bites it in the ass because it won't always hit when you need it to, and requires prediction when the move may not even hit to smack things like excadrill, ferrothorn, and heatran. kyurem-b, a comparison that was made, has a better matchup vs offense because its defensive typing and overall bulk actually let it serve as a good check to certain threats, like electrics not named focus blast thundy, greninja, and mega gyarados, as well as a viable substitute set that is difficult to deal with for offense even. while still doing well vs stall. it's not really comparable to the a- ranks. as someone who nominated it to move up before, it shouldn't.

i do think mew should move to b+. mew is a monster in the current metagame. the standard taunt wisp knock off set is a menace to so many teams, eating many venu-based stall and sand offense teams alive. high special bulk with investment means little can crack it on that side, heck it can check lando-i. mew can take a team and leave it ravaged burnt with no items if played well. i've also found it to be a pretty decent defogger, as bulk and taunt lets it stop a lot of sr mons. i've found that set rather customizable, with any combination of taunt, will-o-wisp, knock off, and ice beam (fuck gliscor) working pretty well. mew is decently customizable in general, boasting a wide movepool of coverage, defense stat that can be useful for things like excadrill if needed, good speed stat that can be more or less invested in based on your needs, stealth rock, and even heal bell can all be utilized depending on what its team requires. it's honestly not comparable to much else as its role in general is rather unique. it and suicune (which i agree on moving up) are really just plain better than the entire b rank.

alomomola is honestly really good, and is misplaced in c+. i'll first describe why it's good. basically it's fat as fuck and the best wish passer ever with regen and huge hp. as an addition to a stall or balanced team, it excels in keeping its teammates healthy and checking various things with its stupidly good bulk and scald + toxic combo. it's also been featured in numerous wcop matches. b- isn't exactly filled with defensive threats, but there's no way it isn't better overall than togekiss and rotom-h. easy choice for a move imo.
 

Jacks0n

formerly grassycow
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Mega aero for B Mega aeros combo of insane speed and good attack make it a massive threat towards offence. Able to run adamant and still outspeed almost all the offensive meta is insane, good stabs and good coveredge let it check a plethora of offensive OU pokemon like keldeo, thundy, lando i (ice fang), mawile (eq), char x, bisharp (eq), chomp (ice fang), gren (coz its so frail), mega pinsir, tflame, char y, dnite, lati's, loom, diggersby ect. The fact that it can check such a huge portion of the OU meta is just crazy. It is held back by the fact that if it runs fire fang to hit ferro ect. it cant hit gliscor, so t has 4mms, as well as it being not very problematic for stall, but all in all mega aero is a monster that deserves to be ranked with mega manectric, a pokemon that is great against offence but not as problematic for stall.

upload_2014-7-26_19-21-20.png
Mega absol to C+ With deos gone this thing just became so much less relevent. Its slow before Mevo, its frail, not as powerful as other mega sweepers and lacks enough coveredge to make too much of an impact deserving of B-. It has a niche of being a sweeper that can outspeed talons bb if running sucker and jolly and that it is immune to thundies twave, but out of that its niche is not even nearly as relevent as when deos were around.

I also support alomomola for B-, I did a post for Alomomola to rise already and people thought it was a joke, but its not, its amazing ability combined with its insane HP let it be a great wish passer withought having to worry about its own health.
 

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Oh yeah, can't believe I forgot Pressure. That's a major ascpect of what makes Suicune so good. Pressure basically makes it impossible to PP stall Suicune, which is worthy of note and a great perk over the likes of Clefable. Also, Scald is really annoying to switch into.

Agreeing with both Mew and Mola rising. Mew is extremely hard for stall to deal with, and its ability to tank a hit and burn whatever faces it is pretty useful against offense. Also a solid defogger, certainly a lot better at the job than Zapdos.
Alomomola I guess has kind of a small niche, but it's one hell of a good one, being the only Wish user with Regenerator (lol Audino). This makes it really good on stall teams, since it provides wishpassing duties and completes a regen core all at once. Not to mention its defensive typing and bulk are excellent. B- seems good for it
 
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Mega Aerodactyl (B-) -> B | I completely agree with what grassycow has stated. Mega Aerodactyl is an underrated, versatile threat in the OU tier, capable of keeping many higher-ranked Pokémon in check thanks to having a fantastic base 135 Attack stat coupled with base 150 Speed, making it a seriously fast AND powerful Mega Evolution. Thanks to this massive Speed, Mega Aerodactyl can run an Adamant nature for maximum power output while still outspeeding key threats such as +1 Mega Tyranitar and +1 Mega Gyarados. Using its high Attack stat and its phenomenal Tough Claws Ability, Mega Aerodactyl's coverage moves, including Crunch, the Elemental Fangs and Iron Head, as well as STAB Aerial Ace, Mega Aerodactyl is capable of dismantling many top-tier threats. It can even work as a Taunt lead with Defog or SR as a support move to help its team out.
However, Mega Aerodactyl is plagued by common Rock-, Ice-, Electric-, Water- and Steel-type weaknesses, which are a massive thorn in its side. Consequently, it's weak to SR, a hazard it's supposed to Defog out on defensive/supporting sets. Lastly, while its 135 Attack is great, it has no Rock-type STABs to use with it. These flaws aside, Mega Aerodactyl is definitely a good Pokémon to use in OU, certainly on par with Mega Manectric. Mega Aerodactyl for B.
 
Supporting Volcarona to D.

Pretty much everything said in the original post covered it, but I just want to re-iterate exactly how much it sucks. It's only decent because of QD but even then it fails because it gets revenge killed by everything except Scizor. Forget 4MSS, this thing has 7MSS since you want Roost, QD, Stabs, Hurricane, HP Ground and HP Ice. It has ok special bulk, but it can't keep switching in because of it's weakness to SR. And speaking of Hurricane, it used to have a cool niche as a rain sweeper with it last gen but that's gone too.

Volcarona isn't like other mons in C, in that they generally all have notable niches, and despite being outclassed, have one or two aspects that make them preferential in certain situations. It's just a worst Crocune really, and there's no reason to use it over other powerful special attackers like Keldeo and Landorus, or setup sweepers like the A-rank DDancers.
 

ScraftyIsTheBest

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Hey, I'm kinda late to the party, but I really disagree with moving Volcarona to D. I know it's kind of situational and does need quite a bit of support, but saying it's in the same level of viability as novelties like Weezing and Mantine is pretty silly imo. Quiver Dance is still a pretty sick move and Volcarona gets pretty decent coverage in Fire Blast, Bug Buzz, and Giga Drain, which allows it to do quite a bit of work once it's checks and counters are gone. You don't always have to set up QD; you only really should do so if you're confident that Volc can win you the game at that point, and even before that you could weaken other Pokemon. Volcarona doesn't really have that big of 4MSS; Quiver Dance, STABs, and Giga Drain are all you really need, and it only has a minor case of 4MSS since it could use a Hidden Power like Rock or Ground to break through Heatran or Charizard. You don't need Roost, Hurricane, or HP Ice at all since those moves are actually pretty useless, recovery is eh on something that intends to be a late game cleaner, Hurricane is redundant with Fire Blast and Bug Buzz, and HP Ice doesn't hit anything outside of Dragonite, which could be important but Volc shouldn't be in on Dnite to begin with. Anyways, Volcarona still can be effective when given some support, especially since after it sets up a Quiver Dance or two, it hits hard, is fast, and takes special attacks pretty decently. It can make real work of heavily weakened teams because it's strong and is pretty fast; not to mention decently bulky on the special side. It is weak to some priority, but it resists Mach Punch and Bullet Punch which is nice. Flame Body is also a cool ability so if it does activate it's pretty clutch.

Anyways, I think Volcarona is fine where it is. It does have problems with a hostile metagame and massive 4x SR weakness which does mean it needs quite a bit of support, but can be pretty effective with it. When I look at C+ Rank, I see Pokemon of equal viability to Volcarona. Looking in there, I see things like Infernape, Hydreigon, and Togekiss. These are all Pokemon that can perform pretty well and have solid niches, but do suffer from the fact that the metagame is not that kind to them, so they need some support and are not splashable additions to a team. In my opinion, Volcarona fits in there quite nicely, far moreso than in the leagues of Arcanine, Mantine, and Weezing, which have like one niche in taking on certain top threats but are otherwise pretty useless.

Just my thoughts.

(PS: I support moving Alomomola and Mew up; Mola is really good for its huge Wishes and being a great physical wall that just doesn't die, and Mew is a pretty good stallbreaker and also a decent Defogger too, Jukain explained it pretty well so I don't need to reiterate).
 

Aragorn the King

Literally a duck
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I already said what I thought about Volcarona, Suicune, and Thundurus-T. I'll address the other nominations here.

Klefki: I agree with Klefki rising to B-. It has a really good Dual Screens + Spikes set, and so is a very useful lead for HO teams. It has flaws in its relatively poor bulk, being Taunt bait, and lacking Stealth Rock and Taunt, but it is able to make up for those flaws with priority screens. It also hates Defog, but when but on a team with Bisharp one shouldn't worry that much.

Cresselia: I think I also agree with Cresselia rising to C+. It really is stall's only way of defeating Calm Mind Landorus, which is a pretty big niche. It boasts in addition to the standard defensive set, it also has a Trick Room set and a Dual Screens set. It has reliable recovery (outside of rain and sand) and ample coverage. It's really solid for both HO and Stall, and I'd honestly push for B-. But I guess moving one step at a time would be better.

Gardevoir: It has a terrible speed tier and terrible physical defense. These are two major flaws that prevent it from being a huge threat against offensive teams. However, once its checks and counters on offensive teams, it will kill most everything. Its main perk is being a phenomenal stall killer; and it really is. With its ideal four moves, it beats Chansey, Skarmory, Venusaur, Amoonguss, Heatran, Quagsire, Alomomola, and Slowbro, all of which are common on stall. It's too slow and frail to be an A ranked threat, but that doesn't take away from how threatening a Poke it is. It belongs in B+

Medicham: Suffers similarly from what Gardevoir does. Its physical bulk is slightly better, at the cost of much worse special bulk and a much worse defensive typing. It provides no defensive utility to a team, and is a momentum killer against teams with Talonflame + Aegislash, which are obviously very common. It, like Gardevoir, is a phenomenal wall breaker, and should be ranked as such. It also beats Chansey, Skarmory, Venusaur, Amoonguss, Heatran, Quagsire, and Alomomola on stall. It's really hard to stop when against defensive teams, but against offensive teams it's more of a hit-and-run Pokemon that rarely gets a chance to hit. It belongs in B+.

Cofagrigus: I'm really unsure about this. I've never been up against one and I've never used it. Theoretically, it seems like a good defensive Pokemon with Mummy and a good offensive Pokemon with Nasty Plot and Trick Room, but I'm unsure. I'd give it D, but I don't play TR, so idk if its niche there is big enough.

Reuniclus: I'm also unsure. It hits very hard, and it's Trick Room set seems really cool. It has reliable recovery and an ability that negates Life Orb, weather, hazard, and status damage, good bulk, and insane power. I'd rank it D, but I don't play TR, so idk its niche is big enough.

Mew: Yes please. It's such a good Pokemon now, and B+ is where it belongs. TauntWisp is as good as always, and it has reliable recovery, hazard removal, and Knock Off it can also add to a set. Its main problem is that it can't use Taunt, Defog, Knock Off, Seismic Toss, and Psychic all on the same set (Soft-boiled/roost and Will-o-wisp are mandatory), but its ability to take hits and break stat is nearly unmatched. I'd rather use it than Gengar on my teams, but that's just me.

Alomomola: Such an annoying Pokemon to face. It's basically a physically defensive Chansey, but with smaller Wishes, no Heal Bell, and a better defensive typing. It's Taunt bait, but so is Chansey, and it's set-up bait, but so is Chansey. Alomomola heals as it heals a teammate, and because of this is very useful on stall teams. I'd agree to raising it up to B-.

Mega Aerodactyl: This is long overdue. It performs well against offense with its amazing Speed and surprising power when Adamant, and also against stall when running Taunt. It has so much coverage (Stone Edge, Earthquake, Aerial Ace, Fire Fang, Ice Fang, Iron Head, and Crunch) and a lot of utility (Roost, Defog, Stealth Rock, Taunt) so that you can tailor it to what you need on a team. B rank suits it the best.

Mega Absol: This change I disagree with. Mega Absol is very underrated in my opinion. It has a great speed stat, Attack stat, and Special Attack stat, which allow it to cripple many things with Knock Off, beat faster Pokemon with Sucker Punch, and cripple physically defensive Pokemon with a powerful Ice Beam or Fire Blast. It also boasts the ability to OHKO Tyranitar with Superpower, which is very useful for a Dark-type. Its main draw comes from being immune to Thunder Wave and Will-o-wisp and deflecting Stealth Rock, which is extremely useful for an offensive team. However, it has to watch out for its terrible bulk. If Rotom-W decides to Hydro Pump instead of using Will-o-Wisp, or if Hippowdon uses Earthquake instead of Stealth Rock, Absol is in for a world of pain. But, when played well, Absol's combination of mixed offense, great coverage, strong priority, and Magic Bounce make it deserve to stay B-.

Also, I have some proposals.

Noivern: This was brought up by someone before the recent update, so I'll bring it up again. Noivern is useful for its immense Speed, which allows it to act as the only Dragon-type that can revenge kill Latios and Latios. Noivern also lacks a Pursuit and Sucker Punch weakness, so it isn't a liability against teams with Bisharp, Tyranitar, or Scizor. Additionally, it has the ever useful move Flamethrower, which is stronger than Latios' Hidden Power Fire (despite the 33 Special Attack) and allows Noivern to deal with Bisharp and Ferrothorn, two Pokemon that give Latios nightmares. It lacks Defog and has a SR weakness, but it does come with other benefits. It has utility in Roost, Taunt, and U-turn, which allow it to support its team, as well as Focus Blast so that it can hit Tyranitar for decent damage. Its main draw is its speed, which allows it to revenge kill everything except for Mega Manectric, Mega Alakazam, Mega Aerodactyl, and Scarfers. It's overall a niche and effective Pokemon (here's its analysis by the way), and I think it deserves a ranking again. I think it belongs anywhere between C and D, but I'm not sure.

Azelf: I think Azelf deserves B-. It has a nice suicide lead set, a Rain Dance set, a Nasty Plot set, and a Dual Screens set, all of which are useful on HO teams. The rain set in particular is nice to use on teams that used to use Deoxys-S. It has U-Turn, so it's able to switch to Rain sweepers instead of just dying, something Deoxys-S which it could've done. Overall its versatility and effectiveness make me think it deserves a higher rank.

Diancie: It's pretty mediocre, but isn't as bad as some people say. It has Stealth Rock, Trick Room, Dual Screens, and Explosion, all of which make it an interesting lead. It also hits decently hard with its two STAB moves. It checks Mega Charizard-X without EQ or Will-o-wisp, which is most (outside of stall teams). It can also run a Rindo Berry to check Charizard-Y (at this point I'm just kinda theorymonning). It's Calm Mind set is also interesting, but it dislikes that it has two physical weaknesses to watch out for while boosting, while Clefable only has one and Suicune has none. I'm not sure of its ideal ranking, but I think C- would be a good place to start discussion.
 
Volcanora, D???, madness I tell you. No seriously, while volcanora suffers from a ghastly 4x SR, a typing that leaves a lot of be desired defensively and a harder time setting up in the XY meta. It still has access to one of the best boosting moves in the game, with an offensive typing and movepool to just about make good use of it, but it's volcanora's stats that really make it shine. 135special attacks and speed make for a decent sweeper, but with quiver dance, they instead make for a deadly one, with maximum invested special attack and speed of 554/492 after single quiver dance, the flame moth packs a fiery punch. To top it off, quiver dance boosts, volcanora's good special bulk at the same time, making it take hits better form the special side and it has access to roost to heal off any damage it may receive. Sr is a bit less of an issue this gen, with he buff to defog and now deoyxs-d/s are banned it's even easier. However, it's 65 physical defense leaves much to be desired. The increase of priority moves, which exploit it's weaker physical bulk, run rampent and the nerf to hidden power, the increased pressure to run roost or bulkier sets, Limit it's otherwise destructive potential. It still ressists mach and bullet punch and can set up on the latter main user and while aqua jet azumaril is frustrating for volcanora, it risks a burn from using said move and being crippled it's self. While volcanora has lost many of the opportunities it once found to set up, the increase in priority and physical attackers, in addition to the problems it had last gen. There is no denying, that while volcanora, may require significant support to function, when it does, it's a force of nature landorus would be proud of and should stay in C+
 
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