np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[Immortal]

By your own admission, Aegislash requires multiple checks and counters, on the same team, to handle, and thus that really seems to point to Aegislash being an unhealthy presence within this metagame.

I have never built a team with aegislash checks in mind, seriously it gets easily checked just by default. Just about every team ever has at the very least one pokemon with earthquake and almost all teams have something with a fire move, i mean like half the teams i face have one of the charizards on it. The point in that in my experience i check aegislash without specifically even trying to because way more threatening pokemon like charizard X and mega mawille as you said are also weak to ground moves while mega mawille is also weak to fire. Aegislash is consistent and typically pulls its weight but honestly there is no way it is broken and there were other pokemon that could have been tested first.

 

[InfinityX000]

I have never built a team with aegislash checks in mind, seriously it gets easily checked just by default. Just about every team ever has at the very least one pokemon with earthquake and almost all teams have something with a fire move, i mean like half the teams i face have one of the charizards on it. The point in that in my experience i check aegislash without specifically even trying to because way more threatening pokemon like charizard X and mega mawille as you said are also weak to ground moves while mega mawille is also weak to fire. Aegislash is consistent and typically pulls its weight but honestly there is no way it is broken and there were other pokemon that could have been tested first. Smogon needs to stop suspecting random things that some of the people in charge dislike because they think they might enjoy the metagame more without it and instead make sure they are testing stuff that is actually broken

Well... You have a point. But one way a pokemon can get banned is if it is an unhealthy presence. Not to say it is, I personally like the metagame without Espeon, MegaHera, MegaGarde, and other annoying pokes going crazy better. (not to say those pokes are broken, they are just gimmicky and a nuissance.) And i fully agree that most people check Aegis without even trying just by having one of the best pokemon in the metagame, like ZardY or Garchomp. Just, Smogon knows what they are doing.

 

[Halcyon.]

I have never built a team with aegislash checks in mind, seriously it gets easily checked just by default. Just about every team ever has at the very least one pokemon with earthquake and almost all teams have something with a fire move, i mean like half the teams i face have one of the charizards on it. The point in that in my experience i check aegislash without specifically even trying to because way more threatening pokemon like charizard X and mega mawille as you said are also weak to ground moves while mega mawille is also weak to fire. Aegislash is consistent and typically pulls its weight but honestly there is no way it is broken and there were other pokemon that could have been tested first.

If you go into a serious battle with only a Charizard or an EQ user as your answer to Aegislash, you are going to be bent over by any team that runs it. Neither Charizard nor common EQ users can switch into even the standard Aegislash, let alone less common but extremely viable other sets like LO 4 Attacks or SD 3 Attacks. See, here's the difference between your check to Aegi and Aegi itself. It's actually very similar to Tornadus-T from last gen. Aegislash is a Pokemon that can come in very easily on many MANY different things in the meta. It's probably THE easiest Pokemon to switch in thanks to it's amazing bulk, typing, and immunities. Once it comes in using this bulk, it fires of extremely powerful attacks that most Pokemon just can't handle. Charizard and Garchomp certainly aren't switching into Shadow Ball and walking away Scott free. Sure, you might have a SDef Gliscor, but the opponent might have a LO set! Then you get to deal with the lovely 50/50s between Roost and EQ because of Kings Shield! Aegislash is the epitome of low risk high reward. There's almost no issue with bringing it in on just about any team, and once you do you put insane pressure on the opponent. So what if you have EQ on your Garchomp? What's stopping Aegi from switching out and coming back in to score that 2HKO later on? The exact same thing was said about Torn-T last gen, and look what happened there.

Add on the fact that Aegi is even more centralizing of a Pokemon than Gen V Keldeo and I really can't fathom how you can see Aegislash as NOT broken. Will the meta be perfect after it leaves? Maybe not. But for fucks sake if it's broken, let's ban it and take a step in the right direction for christssake. If certain Pokemon end up fucking up the meta after Aegi leaves then we deal with those next but don't keep it around because you're afraid of doing the work necessary to make XY the great tier that it CAN be.

 

[NocturnalQuill]

I've reached 2400 coil and at this point I've given up on playing in this toxic meta. I've seen some post about M-Mawile being OP, which I agree with entirely which is why I decided to bemoan below. The Aegislash ban makes it very hard to create balanced teams because of the amount of resistances Aegislash was able to support the team with. It's difficult to prepare for a lot of Pokemon while trying to check common strategies, and create efficient teams. We all know every team has flaws, but those flaws could be mitigated with smart play, such as double-switching or playing aggressively against your teams biggest threats. But without effective checks or counters, just playing smart won't cut it. Aegislash was Mawile's best check and now that Aegislash is gone it's almost impossible to stop Mawile without losing a few Pokemon (unless you're running stall). I don't agree with letting broken Pokemon check other broken Pokemon, which is why I find it hard to understand why Mawilite wasn't suspected along with Aegislash. The suspect ladder is disgusting because there are so many balanced and offensive teams that are over prepared for stall, that get destroyed by Mawile. Then there are teams that are over prepared for Mawile, that get destroyed by stall. Sure there are some unreliable unconventional checks like (hue) bulky Mega-Charizard-Y and Bulk Up Talonflame. God forbid you switch either of them in on Stealth Rock, then lose the ensuing 50/50. To some this up, OU is not fun to play at all while Aegislash or Mawilite is legal. Hopefully it's quick banned immediately after this suspect test is over so the meta can be competitive again.

Mawile is most definitely a top threat in the tier, but after running one I can say that it's not on the same level as Aegislash. Mawile is pretty predictable overall, it runs Sucker Punch, Play Rough, another coverage move, and Swords Dance/Substitute. It's highly susceptible to status and its ability being disrupted, both of which are pretty easy to inflict due to its iffy speed. It can't use held items like Air Balloon or Lum Berry to mitigate its weaknesses since it's a Mega, which also makes it mutually exclusive with a lot of other popular options. Aegislash doesn't really care about being paralyzed, burns don't touch Shadow Ball, Stance Change can't be disrupted, and it has a billion different sets. Not to mention it has way more bulk overall.

I can understand Mawile getting a suspect test, but I honestly don't think it'll happen. Charizard X would probably be banned before Mawile honestly. I think it's important to bear in mind that there is always going to be a collection of top tier threats, no matter who gets banned. What's important is that these threats have a reasonable number of consistent checks and counters in order to allow for variety. What makes Aegislash's case unique is the consistency part. You can fit him on damn near any team. Mawile takes a little planning to be fully effective.

 

[ginganinja]

Stop talking about Mawile please, Mawile looks likely to be the next suspect after this one, so can we just focus on Aegislash please.

 

[Mr.378]

This suspect test in particular has been one where I have a hard time coming to a conclusion on the pokemon suspected. It has been easily more so than anything else that we have suspected. Aegislash is definitely a pokemon where it has broken elements too it, it also has redeeming qualities. Said broken qualities also may be over stated and exaggerated. After thinking about the suspect for some time I have reached the decision that, while Aegislash may bring some positive elements to the tier, it brings more negative aspects and is powerful enough that a ban on it is justified. The main reasons for this are the 50/50 situations it causes, its remarkable usability, its own aspects as a pokemon, and the centralization it causes in order to beat it.

I'll start with the 50/50 situations it brings. This is mainly because of how overdone that particular argument is and how everyone already realizes it to at least some extent. The sheer amount of 50/50 situations Aegislash brings to the tier, while overstated, are still a problem that must be looked at. Aegislash is the pokemon of 5050s, more so than any other. It is the only pokemon the tier where every move it makes can be considered some game changing 50/50 situation that will majorly alter the game state. It is mostly King's Shields doing that it is so, but not entirely. As I will get to, Aegislash has a number of sets and options it can use to throw the opponent off and defeat their check or counter to Aegislash. These situations, however, are 50/50s which means that it ends badly for the Aegislash user half the time. As previously stated though, this is the worst part of these 50/0 situations. They tend to require little skill, instead just turning the game into one of guessing. While the 50/50 situations Aegislash brings up are overstated, and they are just 50/50s, they are still a big enough factor warranting in his elimination from the OU metagame.

Going off his 50/50 situations are the reason why he is able to set up the situations. His versatility as a pokemon. He has a great number of sets to choose from. Some are more viable than others such as the standard mixed set. There are also other sets that work very well on the right team as it gives the element of surprise like the Sub Toxic set. He is able to effectively run a number of great sets in the tier to such an extent that any team in the game right now can benefit from having an Aegislash. On any team, be it offensive, stall, or anything in between Aegislash can fit on them and consistently prove its worth. Versatility in most cases should not be a case for banishment from a tier. It should be though when it reaches Aegislashes level of versatility and can pick its own counters from an already limited list.

With his versatility as a pokemon comes his stats and ho helpful they are in allowing it to be versatile. It has been said that Aegislash has a 720 BST and while that may be a silly exaggeration, his stats are still nothing to be mocked. He has the ability to choose whether he is a wall or an attacker with impeccable stats. Granted the attacks coming off his base 150 attack stats have middling base power, they are of great typing and variety. Which is the other aspect of Aegislash that makes it so good. It has a great typing that grants it both a very useful STAB combo and nice resistances and immunities. The greatest problem with its typing is that it also gives weakness to many common attacking types such as fire, ground, and dark. All of which, especially ground, can be played around though the 50/50s and versatility Aegislash has. Aegislash's great stats and typing only further bolster the power that it has.

Finally, there is the impact all of this has on the metagame. There are a few pokemon with some or even most of the qualities that Aegislash has, but none combine them as well as it does. As such it is a centralizing force in the metagame, in more ways than one. It not only centralizing the game by forcing the opponent to run multiple checks or counters to its sets, but it also serves as one of the best checks to a number of dangerous threats in the tier. Said threats may become more prevalent with Aegislash's banning, but that is not a good reason to keep him in this metagame. The pokemon Aegislash checks are not broken enough for that, and if they were than it would make more sense to just ban them instead. So while Aegislash may have some positive value in checking potentially overpowered threats, it does not make up for the centralization it demands.

Aegislash, while it has some positive qualities to it has more negative qualities such as the 50/50 situations it creates, its versatility, stats, and typing, and its centralization. It does this more than any other pokemon in the tier, and as such needs to be banned to create a more optimal OU metagame.

 

[nyczxjay]

Just got reqs so I guess I'll just chime in briefly. At the start of this suspect test I wasn't sure on how ban-worthy Aegislash was. In fact, it never even crossed my mind as broken because I've never had any issues dealing with Aegislash. After reading the valid arguments from both the pro-ban and anti-ban side, as well as my own personal experiences on the suspect ladder, I'm going to say that Aegislash should be removed from the OU metagame... which sucks because I enjoyed using it and it's one of my favorite Gen 6 Pokemon... :(

My reasons for this decision should be no surprise:

1. 50/50's - this is a dead horse I'm not going to beat...
2. Versatility and overcentralization - Aegislash has the ability to constantly adjust to the metagame and always perform well. This can be exemplified by how SD Aegislash was the meta back in early XY, and then the Special Mixed set became the meta when people started to be overly prepared for physical Aegislash. And now there is a resurgence of SD Aegislash where you see it sweeping teams again because people started to be overly prepared for the mixed set and ignoring the SD set. Basically, Aegislash is able to use current metagame trends to its advantage. In fact, I would dare say that metagame trends are created depending on what particular set of Aegislash is popular at the time.
   
3. Strain on teambuilding - The mere existence of Aegislash makes certain Pokemon completely unusable in OU (i.e. Starmie, Celebi, etc.) or forces Pokemon to use certain moves (i.e. EQ on Pinsir and Heracross > Close Combat). With regards to forcing Pokemon to use certain moves, I can't help but think about the days when people opted to use things like Haze Unaware Quagsire to check BP... yea that was stupid...
4. I'm liking the more diverse teams I see on the suspect ladder with the Deo's, BP, and Aegislash gone. Not really a vaild reason but w/e.

While removing Aegislash from OU opens doors to other potential broken Pokemon (I'm looking at you Mega Mawile...), I believe that we can just test/ban those Pokemon too if that's the case.

 

[blazeVA]

This suspect test has been very interesting to go through and despite the fact that I simply don't have the skills to get to reqs (for whatever reason that is, I just can't seem to do it), I've thought long and hard on what my opinion was on Aegislash.

1. Set Dominance

Having played from the beginning of Gen VI, I think its interesting on how the sets have evolved over time. First there was the King's Shield + Swords Dance set, which while it could sweep some teams, proved to be a major flop against most of them and lead several people to believe that Aegislash just wasn't going to be a strong enough threat. Then people started getting the idea of running special moves on Aegislash. For me it was the simple inclusion of Hidden Power [Ice] to get rid of what was, at the time, the most common check to Aegislash: Gliscor. Teams that normally would have been able to deal with the former set no longer could deal with a set that attacked from a different end of the spectrum. I spoke out against the use of Swords Dance, and still do on more defensive sets, and then the meta finally found the move that would make Aegislash a monster to face. Shadow Ball. For someone who used Lando-T for a long time as a Aegislash counter, Shadow Ball proved to pretty much put it to rest. The bulky Spooky Plate set later served to be one of my MVPs, and after that, LO-4 attacks, SubToxic all appeared and we found that while there was a dominant set, variance made Aegislash much more difficult to deal with than before. No longer did you just have to deal with just one set. Now it was three, four, five. All with the ability to just be tweaked to your needs.

2. Lack of Checks and Counters

Aegislash also has, since the inclusion of Shadow Ball into its set, another defining trait: a lack of reliable checks and counters. While many did exist, they weren't always reliable for one reason and one reason only: Shadow Ball is a complete bitch to switch into. The Steel nerf made it so Aegislash had an amazing STAB, coming off an amazing Sp.Atk stat that other Pokemon would only dream of. Yeah, Garchomp checks Aegislash. But can it switch into Shadow Ball? Hell no. Can Landorus? Nope. Can Mega Mawile? Nope. The list goes on and on. Counters were ruled mainly by Mandibuzz, but even then Aegislash adapted and created the terrifying SubToxic set, which easily and totally dealt with Mandibuzz. Quite simply, while each set has its own counters, and checks, its simply uncounterable in the long run. You don't know which set you will face, you don't know if switching Mandibuzz into Aegislash will result in you losing your bird, you don't know if the Life Orb means its about to SD up and wreck face or just blast powerful attacks. What does this mean?

3. The Need to Prepare

Aegislash, quite simply, is a Pokemon you need to prepare for. Back in the day, you could just throw Mandibuzz onto a team and call it a day. Now you can't however. You can't just stick one check or one counter and expect it to work. You need more. If you run Mandibuzz, having something to deal with SubToxic will be incredibly important. If you run Gliscor, having something that can soak up Shadow Balls is very important. If its Heatran, you need a reliable Fighting-resist. Case in point: Preparing for Aegislash requires that you prepare for its wide variety of sets, and that means devoting at least more than one team slot to defeating it.

4. King's Shield

I won't lie, I feared this move would make its way to Ferrothorn and turn it into a monster. Thankfully, Ferrothorn got neither Shield move. ^^; Small tangent aside, this is one of the moves that is fiercely talked about. It's kinda like Protect, except it leaves you with a stinging blow should you make contact with it. To be frank, I think the 50/50 argument is rather bull and its been part of the reason no one always ran Protect. Protect was a liability, and in a lot of ways, it is like King's Shield with its "50/50 scenario." But what I think makes King's Shield bad, in a metagame sense, is that it allows Aegislash to utilize the fullest extent of its stats, while also determining its opponent's moveset. Think back to Gen V and Genesect. What item would you run on Heatran to counter Gene? If you had asked me, I would have said Shed Shell, 100%, as it was the only item that allowed you to counter the bug 100% of the time. Genesect was actually influencing what items you ran, not just your Pokemon. King's Shield does the same thing. People are dropping Close Combat on their Mega Pinsir for Earthquake. Purely for the reason that Earthquake hits Aegislash without having to rely on a contact move. Without King's Shield, Pinsir is bulky and powerful enough that it wouldn't need to run Earthquake. But because of it, its influencing the moveset of your opponent. There are many other examples of this elsewhere, probably too many to list. And while it also make some Pokemon, like Talonflame, who would normally be a good check, very poor checks, the good checks do already run Earthquake or use Fire Blast and that's the issue. The checks are now being decided on what moves you run. Should a Pokemon have the ability to influence not only the Pokemon you use, but the moves you use as well? (Note: Lures are different and I don't think that, for example, Genesect running HP Ground is a real show of Heatran's influence.)

5. Playstyle Influences

This is going to be a short section because it really can't be said that Aegislash actually pushes the meta in one way or another. He can fit onto a large variety of teams, ranging from Hyper Offense to Stall, and so his variety gives some diversity to playstyles. But at its base, I've noticed something. Aegislash's true terror is its ability to make you regret switching. That, to me, is the main playstyle influence it has. Normally, when a dominating Pokemon comes in, your first reaction is to switch out to a more appropriate Pokemon, OR, let that Pokemon die and revenge-kill. As previous suspect tests have shown, often more than not, the Pokemon that are bannable make the first option unviable. Genesect, Torny-T, and Landorus all had U-Turn to immediately switch themselves. Landorus, Mega Lucario, Mega Kangaskhan all made switching unviable by just smashing the switch-in so hard it was crippled. Aegislash falls under the latter group. With just Stealth Rock, Aegislash easily 2HKOes a lot of the metagame. This means that you are pretty much forced to let an answer die to deal with Aegislash. Either it died to give a free switch-in, or it died on the switch to give something else that free switch-in. It speed is an issue, but it easily forces your opponent to drop Pokemon, as switching is just too risky. Normally switching is safe, but Aegislash puts so much pressure you pretty much have to let something die to deal with it.

tl;dr Aegislash has amazing variety in its sets, a move which has not only influenced the choice of checks against it but also the moves they use, no true counters and the ability to beat all of its checks and "soft" counters, and punishes switching heavily enough that switching becomes near non-viable. In my mind, as much as I would not want to see it go myself, as he has always been the glue on my team that has helped it run perfectly, I would be completely okay to see it gone.

(God this post got big where is all of my time)

 

[HBK]

Yes, Aegislash is centralizing in that you have to devote one or two team slots to deal with it but that's only because it's really good. In my opinion, you can accuse a pokemon of being overcentralizing only when it's checks and counters are almost completely useless apart from dealing with said pokemon which is obviously not true in this case. Yes, pokemon like Terrakion and Heracross are forced to run Earthquake to hit Aegislash and nothing else but so what? Would Gengar and Landorus use Sludge Wave if Fairies weren't allowed? Would not every Venusaur run Leech Seed or Sleep Powder over Sludge Bomb then? In ADV, would pokemon like Tyranitar, Metagross and Salamence use HP Grass if Swampert didn't exist? The inability to cover every threat with just four moves is one of the constants of competitive battling in pokemon. And some pokemon are so unique that they can only be hurt by some specific moves that would be useless otherwise but that doesn't make them broken. I've listed Aegislash's flaws before so I won't do it again but what I will say is this: Talonflame and Pinsir are more centralizing than Aegislash as every team needs to carry a Rotom-W, Zapdos, Thundurus (although he can't switch in), etc. that might still be overpowered with good play. I'm not saying that they're broken but nor is Aegislash.

 

[Gloating]

I was on the fence before but I'll be voting no ban for these reasons:

Low Speed:
Yes the low speed helps him but on the flip side it also means it will not out speed much unless it's something gimmicky like SD WP.

Low base power moves:
While it has great attack stats Shadow Ball just doesn't do enough at times and Shadow Sneak is only 40.

No recovery:
Aside from Leftovers and Rest this thing can only take so many hits and after a little damage more things that would otherwise 3HKO or 2HKO can 2HKO or OHKO.

Many checks or Pokemon that can scare it out due to it's low speed:
Excadrill, Landorus, CB Ttar, Heatran, Gengar, Bisharp, Mamoswine, Landorus-T, Mega Charizard Y etc. these are all Pokemon I see atleast one of these in most teams.

There are a good amount of counters in the tier:
Amoonguss, SpD Gliscor, MVenusaur, Mandibuzz and I'm sure I'm missing quite a bit more.

Aegislash cannot run everything at once:
This is what I'm seeing a lot in this thread, people countering other anti-ban arguments with "Aegislash beats that with this and that" but in reality you choose one set or the other.

With good prediction you can stop Aegislash from doing much:
This is what the game is all about which is to out play your opponent like lets say you have a Gyarados out and they have Aegislash they can predict you to Mega evolve to avoid too much damage from Shadow Ball and Sacred Sword or you can predict that and not Mega evolve and go for a DD. It's a 50/50 but the whole game is luck based so the King's Shield argument is not a valid reason in my opinion. People say Aegislash has the advantage but if a Charizard X or Mega Tyranitar DD's on the King's Shield it's pretty much fucked and the opponent can also predict Aegislash to go straight for an attack and just Flare Blitz. Or another example is sacking something that's low to bring in something that threatens it, or switching out on the predicted Shadow Ball or Sacred Sword into something that resists that move and then threatening it, it's little things like that that make it not that troublesome in my opinion.

The fact that I've never really had much trouble with it:
I have used all kinds of teams and I've never really had trouble with it except when using Trick Room. I've been #1 on the OU ladder multiple times with different alts including my main one which is my smogon name so no I haven't been facing bad players. Anyways this is just my take on it and it's probably the last time I post in this thread. Good luck everyone.

 

[Crazy Horse]

I still will never understand why its called 50/50 when factors of prediction are present as in any other prediction. There are plenty of other prediction situations that make or break. I still don't see how anyone could rebuttal that point on pro-ban side.

 

[Max Carvalho]

Lets be honest, when you are facing Aegislash is not RGN that counts, is prediction. Even when dealing with 50/50 there is the risk/reward process. How the battle is going for the Aegislash user? Is He or She likely going to lose? Does he or she need any "prediction" to possibly get an advantage, (thus the victory) or the opponent can play conservatively due to having an advantage over the opponent? Analysing this you may predict your opponent moves, including if Aegislash is going to use KS (a "safe" play) or attack (a risky play, Specially against a mosnter like Zard X.). The pro ban side shouldn't say KS causes 50/50 because it doesn't; you can't only analyse, lets say, Zard X vs Aegislash, you also need the see the overall situation of the battlers.

 

[Tressed]

I still will never understand why its called 50/50 when factors of prediction are present as in any other prediction. There are plenty of other prediction situations that make or break. I still don't see how anyone could rebuttal that point on pro-ban side.

There's never a right answer on King's Shield for either side. The decision is based entirely on how your opponent reacts to knowing you have King's Shield. A proper prediction would be hitting a check on the switch in with an appropriate move, which has quite a few telltale signs, ie. what Pokemon they do or don't need to take your team on, risk / reward, etc. Your opponent can call you on it and stay in, but there's always a best play involved. There is no best play with King's Shield. Attacking has the possibility to screw you over if Aegi KSs, doing anything else screws you over if Aegi attacks. Seeing as how there's no best play, it becomes 50/50; your only chance of predicting is reading your opponent based on what your opponent has done in the past, then you need to consider them trying to mess with you... At the end of the day, the other player could be flipping a coin for all the good predictions and analysis will do for you.

Lets be honest, when you are facing Aegislash is not RGN that counts, is prediction. Even when dealing with 50/50 there is the risk/reward process. How the battle is going for the Aegislash user? Is He or She likely going to lose? Does he or she need any "prediction" to possibly get an advantage, (thus the victory) or the opponent can play conservatively due to having an advantage over the opponent? Analysing this you may predict your opponent moves, including if Aegislash is going to use KS (a "safe" play) or attack (a risky play, Specially against a mosnter like Zard X.). The pro ban side shouldn't say KS causes 50/50 because it doesn't; you can't only analyse, lets say, Zard X vs Aegislash, you also need the see the overall situation of the battlers.

There's prediction involved, sure, but again, you can't call people out on this move unless they aren't considering your decisions at all. As soon as someone decides to start playing headgames with you, it starts getting too complicated to realistically predict. Let's use that Aegislash / Zard X example for a second. If you sweep my team with Zard X after a DD, you can expect me to Shadow Ball to try to weaken you and so you can decide to go for the kill, but I can call you on that and KS. If you've seen the scene in the Princess Bride with the poison, it's exactly like that, but no Deus ex Machina to solve it. Pick a cup and hope it's the right one.

 

[Starfall11]

There's prediction involved, sure, but again, you can't call people out on this move unless they aren't considering your decisions at all. As soon as someone decides to start playing headgames with you, it starts getting too complicated to realistically predict. Let's use that Aegislash / Zard X example for a second. If you sweep my team with Zard X after a DD, you can expect me to Shadow Ball to try to weaken you and so you can decide to go for the kill, but I can call you on that and KS. If you've seen the scene in the Princess Bride with the poison, it's exactly like that, but no Deus ex Machina to solve it. Pick a cup and hope it's the right one.

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with you there. What you're saying is true, and makes perfect sense. It's a logical assumption, but you're missing an important detail. "If you sweep my team with Zard X after a DD, you can expect me to Shadow Ball to try to weaken you and so you can decide to go for the kill, but I can call you on that and KS."

So... you're saying this becomes an endless mind game where each player thinks "Well what if they that I think that they think that I think... etc". Well, you would be right that it would be a 50/50 except for the fact that humans are making the choices. Let's really think about this here. If Aegislash does not shadow ball, and decides to use KS. What's the worst case scenario? I lose the entire match, DD Charizard X sweeps my team, as you stated in the example. As a result, there is enormous pressure for me to use shadow ball. If I do not, I risk losing the entire match. Now, my opponent knows that as well, so he'll flare blitz. But that's obvious, so I should KS, right? No. The prediction chain ends there. If I take the risk and KS, and on the off chance my opponent Dragon Dances, I have lost the entire match. As a result, this is not a 50/50, it's in my opponent's favor.

Now, it would be a 50/50 if Aegislash and Charizard X were the last pokemon on each team. And the battle conditions were equal for both players. And that 50/50 can happen with any pokemon, not just Aegislash. But in this example, they are not. If I am the Charizard X player, I can use Flare Blitz and almost guarantee any competent opponent will go for shadow ball and be KOed. If they do use KS, then congratulations, the Aegislash user outplayed me but almost lost the entire match because of it. That's an extremely rash and reckless decision, but I would commend them for taking such a risk under that pressure. High Risk/High Reward =/= A 50/50

I hope this makes sense to everyone as I have tried outlining it many times before.

 

[Celticpride]

Lack of true counters is not a reason to ban something. Gen 5 Hydreigon had no true counters iirc. Not many things in this day and age have true counters with so many options to prepare for. This is only part of the argument with Aegi, but I just wanted to clear that up. Something can have no counters and not be suspect worthy, especially if it has a lot of checks.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with you there. What you're saying is true, and makes perfect sense. It's a logical assumption, but you're missing an important detail. "If you sweep my team with Zard X after a DD, you can expect me to Shadow Ball to try to weaken you and so you can decide to go for the kill, but I can call you on that and KS."

So... you're saying this becomes an endless mind game where each player thinks "Well what if they that I think that they think that I think... etc". Well, you would be right that it would be a 50/50 except for the fact that humans are making the choices. Let's really think about this here. If Aegislash does not shadow ball, and decides to use KS. What's the worst case scenario? I lose the entire match, DD Charizard X sweeps my team, as you stated in the example. As a result, there is enormous pressure for me to use shadow ball. If I do not, I risk losing the entire match. Now, my opponent knows that as well, so he'll flare blitz. But that's obvious, so I should KS, right? No. The prediction chain ends there. If I take the risk and KS, and on the off chance my opponent Dragon Dances, I have lost the entire match. As a result, this is not a 50/50, it's in my opponent's favor.

Now, it would be a 50/50 if Aegislash and Charizard X were the last pokemon on each team. And the battle conditions were equal for both players. And that 50/50 can happen with any pokemon, not just Aegislash. But in this example, they are not. If I am the Charizard X player, I can use Flare Blitz and almost guarantee any competent opponent will go for shadow ball and be KOed. If they do use KS, then congratulations, the Aegislash user outplayed me but almost lost the entire match because of it. That's an extremely rash and reckless decision, but I would commend them for taking such a risk under that pressure. High Risk/High Reward =/= A 50/50

I hope this makes sense to everyone as I have tried outlining it many times before.

This is precisely the reason I hate the "50/50" argument. It's not the same 50/50 something like Klefki would induce when swagger was allowed. That was more of a 25/75, and took ALL control out of the opponent's, or your own's, hands. Aegi doesn't quite do that. All Pokemon bring forth a 50/50, that's the way the game goes. That's the way checks work. I switch in my check, and in my mind, it scares you out and you switch. But, what if you don't, and I essentially just screwed myself over? 50/50s are just the way the game goes. People fail to bring forth the fact it's 50/50 for both sides.

Let me get one thing straight however, that doesn't mean I'm "against" the ban per se, it doesn't mean I'm for it either. I just don't think "50/50s" is a good enough reason to persuade people to get rid of this thing. It's just the nature of the game.

 

[Baharoth]

There's never a right answer on King's Shield for either side. The decision is based entirely on how your opponent reacts to knowing you have King's Shield. A proper prediction would be hitting a check on the switch in with an appropriate move, which has quite a few telltale signs, ie. what Pokemon they do or don't need to take your team on, risk / reward, etc. Your opponent can call you on it and stay in, but there's always a best play involved. There is no best play with King's Shield. Attacking has the possibility to screw you over if Aegi KSs, doing anything else screws you over if Aegi attacks. Seeing as how there's no best play, it becomes 50/50; your only chance of predicting is reading your opponent based on what your opponent has done in the past, then you need to consider them trying to mess with you... At the end of the day, the other player could be flipping a coin for all the good predictions and analysis will do for you.



There's prediction involved, sure, but again, you can't call people out on this move unless they aren't considering your decisions at all. As soon as someone decides to start playing headgames with you, it starts getting too complicated to realistically predict. Let's use that Aegislash / Zard X example for a second. If you sweep my team with Zard X after a DD, you can expect me to Shadow Ball to try to weaken you and so you can decide to go for the kill, but I can call you on that and KS. If you've seen the scene in the Princess Bride with the poison, it's exactly like that, but no Deus ex Machina to solve it. Pick a cup and hope it's the right one.

This just isnt true. It doesnt even matter what your opponent thinks and what mindgames he wants to play. Unless its a 1 vs 1 decision in the endgame where both mons ohko each other there will always be a right decision to make due to the risks and potential rewards connected to every decision.

Just saying if Aegi KS and you attack your screwed and if he attacks while your not your screwed as well is ignoring the consequences behind every decision. I ve brought the SD Weavile vs Aegi example multiple times by now but i love repeating myself (-.-) so here again.

If Weavile attacks into KS it might have to switch afterwards, depending on how much life Aegi has left. Thats unfortunate for the Weavile player but far from critical. Depending on the situation it might even be an option to go for another attack at -2 to deal significant damage to Aegi and weaken it, however thats just an option, he doesnt have to. If he goes for a boost he might lose weavile but has the chance to set up for a sweep, so is high risk but also high reward. If Weavile goes for an attack and Aegi does the same Aegi faints so attacking carries a big risk for the Aegi player, but so does the KS as he might end up getting swept assuming he doesnt have a save counter for +2 Weavile. Looking at this situation there are clear right decsions for both sides. The weavile player can go for an attack or just switch immediately. In fact he has little reason not to attack, if he is right Aegi goes down, if not he can just switch out later. The Aegi player on the other hand should switch immediately as the risks he faces with both decisions are far greater than the potential rewards, if he has no switch in for Weavile he has to go for an attack to prevent a sweep. Even if he as a good counter for weavile there is little reason to go for KS.

And if you think this through you will notice that Aegi has the short stick of the deal most of the time. He is always playing with his life on the line while the risk for the opponent is just a forced switch. Everybody who uses Aegi on constant basis should be aware of that, mindlessly using kingshield can fuck you up big time, in fact it should only be used against mons that can take advantage of it, ie. things without status moves.

It should also be noted that this example favours Aegi, against bulkier mons he doesnt even have the chance to ko his opponent, and against things that dont trigger KS it gets far worse.

 

[Jarrod]

The thing is, threats like Thundurus, Landorus etc really only need one check because the sets they run are checked by the same thing. Aegislash, however, has different sets with different checks. Air Balloon sets can't be checked with Earthquake, specially based sets destroy checks to physically based checks etc, that you NEED 2 checks to Aegi on a proper team. It's simply so versatile that you just have to run multiple checks. And Aegislash is a cut above other S and A rank threats. They all have some sort of opportunity cost. While they may be small, Aegislash's opportunity cost is practically. nonexistent. All you need is the proper set that fits on your team and there is no reason to NOT run another set or pokemon. It's the sheer number of sets and how effectively it pulls them off that makes Aegislash ban worthy imo.

Seriously? Threats like Lando and Thund can be checked by the same thing? Chansey checks Thundurus-I and Landorus-I UNLESS they have knock off (and Taunt in some cases for Thund-I). Similarly, Latios/Latias check Landorus-I unless it has knock off. The addition of one move makes all the difference, just like the addition of a balloon or Head Smash to Aegi can make all the difference. A/S ranks are versatile and require multiple checks - if you ban something on this basis, there's no point in playing Pokemon because you will never be satisfied.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

This just isnt true. It doesnt even matter what your opponent thinks and what mindgames he wants to play. Unless its a 1 vs 1 decision in the endgame where both mons ohko each other there will always be a right decision to make due to the risks and potential rewards connected to every decision.

Just saying if Aegi KS and you attack your screwed and if he attacks while your not your screwed as well is ignoring the consequences behind every decision. I ve brought the SD Weavile vs Aegi example multiple times by now but i love repeating myself (-.-) so here again.

If Weavile attacks into KS it might have to switch afterwards, depending on how much life Aegi has left. Thats unfortunate for the Weavile player but far from critical. If he goes for a boost he might lose weavile but has the chance to set up for a sweep, so is high risk but also high reward. If Weavile goes for an attack and Aegi does the same Aegi faints so attacking carries a big risk for the Aegi player, but so does the KS as he might end up getting swept assuming he doesnt have a save counter for weavile. Looking at this situation there are clear right decsions for both sides. The weavile player can go for an attack or just switch immediately. In fact he has little reason not to attack, if he is right Aegi goes down, if not he can just switch out. The Aegi player on the other hand should switch immediately as the risks he faces with both decisions are far greater than the potential rewards, if he has no switch in for Weavile he has to go for an attack to prevent a sweep. Even if he as a good counter for weavile there is little reason to go for KS. And if you think this through you will notice that Aegi has the short stick of the deal most of the time. His always playing with his life on the line while the risk for the opponent is just a forced switch. Everybody who uses Aegi on constant basis should be aware of that, mindlessly using kingshield can fuck you up big time, in fact it should only be used against mons that can take advantage of it, ie. things without status moves.

I mean I dont know why people are throwing out one isolated situation of what could potentially happen, I could just as easily paint a picture using conkeldurr and aegislash and that is a true 50/50 there is equal risk and reward and truly comes down to a coin flip.

I will admit the 50/50 argument may be exaggerted coming from our side, but once again this is just ONE trait that aegislash brings to the table that is part of MANY as to why he should be banned. Since there is no way anyone could reasonably say Aegislash does not force 50/50s, and no way to saying that Aegislash always forces a 50/50 in every situation, there is nothing else to be said except to say that Aegislash does induce more 50/50s in a tier already plagued with them, this is one reason of many we want him gone, so I dont know what you guys are saying. Are you saying he doesnt ever create situations that are 50/50s? If so, you are mistaken. I am happy this is coming to an end because all I am seeing are people taking one tiny trait of aegislash and trying to make it not seem so bad, and it is getting old.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

Seriously? Threats like Lando and Thund can be checked by the same thing? Chansey checks Thundurus-I and Landorus-I UNLESS they have knock off (and Taunt in some cases for Thund-I). Similarly, Latios/Latias check Landorus-I unless it has knock off. The addition of one move makes all the difference, just like the addition of a balloon or Head Smash to Aegi can make all the difference. A/S ranks are versatile and require multiple checks - if you ban something on this basis, there's no point in playing Pokemon because you will never be satisfied.

They can. Mamoswine, scarf Kyurem-Black, Greninja, Raikou etc. check them.

 

[P3DS]

The main thing to see are the weaknesses it has:

Fire: most fire moves are special, so disregard king's shield. Physical ones are what to watch out for
Ground: EQ and earth power are the common stuff seen. Both ignore the -2 from KS
Ghost: mainly Shadow ball. Ignores the -2 from KS
Dark: Do we see much. Bish can hurt it, and defiant negates the KS effect, and with knock off, it can hurt. Greninja can hurt it bad with dark pulse.

See what I'm getting at. The major stuff in the meta that hurts it the most ignore the -2 from KS

Aegislash cannot run everything at once:
This is what I'm seeing a lot in this thread, people countering other anti-ban arguments with "Aegislash beats that with this and that" but in reality you choose one set or the other.

That's one gripe about it: Versatility. It is hard to have one pure counter, just multiple checks.

 

[alexwolf]

Look, I don't know about everyone else, but unless I am playing stall here, I don't build teams with two checks and counters for every single threat in OU. There are certain pokemon currently in existence, such as Mega Mawile, Aegislash, Charizard, that all require you to have something specific to deal with multiple sets, or you just get destroyed. Its also worth noting, that all of these pokemon are potentially broken, certainly some of them (if not all) are getting suspect tests ironically enough, specifically FOR THE REASONS YOU JUST MENTIONED. Keldeo on the other hand, is not one of these pokemon. Aegislash loses nothing, utterly nothing between running its standard aggressive set, or switching to Sub Toxic: either set will ruin its standard counters. There is no luck involved here, and it means that whenever Aegislash shows up in Team Preview, if you don't scout its set before bringing in your counter, you could very well lose it. Compare this to Keldeo, your own example, that needs to get "lucky" with a 30% Scald burn to even have a CHANCE at beating its counters...and you have the nerve to compare that with Aegislash. Like seriously, that would have to be one of the most retarded things I have seen within this thread, which is saying something because as a moderator yourself, you can see deleted posts within this thread. I don't run BOTH a Latias, AND a Mega Venusaur, just because "oh shit, if Keldeo gets a lucky Scald burn I'm fucked", because Keldeo is hardly overcentralising enough for me to give up both a mega slot as well as another pokemon just because I might get "lucked". Does this mean I should be packing a third check / counter just in case either Venusaur or Latias loses to a Critical Hit????

By your own admission, Aegislash requires multiple checks and counters, on the same team, to handle, and thus that really seems to point to Aegislash being an unhealthy presence within this metagame. I will assume, for your sake, that I misread that intent of your post somehow, and you did not intend to promote the above argument, and thus will refrain from using words like "idiot" or "mentally challenged" to describe your post, but I don't think you can really compare Aegislash to Keldeo mate :/

My bad for wording it poorly, let me elaborate. When i say ''you need at least two checks for almost every major threat'' i am including revenge killers. So even though revenge killers are not generally considered as checks in practice, they technically are, just very shaky ones. So, even if you don't have two good checks to every big threat, i am sure that for the threats you have only one check you also have ~two more Pokemon able to revenge kill this threat in some way, be it a Scarfer, a fast Pokemon, or a priority user. If you have a strong check for X threat, you only need one or two revenge killers for the same threat. But if have just an ok check to threat X, you need another ok check to threat X, just having revenge killers to it won't cut it. So if you include revenge killers, you will see that indeed there are at least two checks to every team for major threats.

Also, even though some of the Pokemon i mentioned are getting suspect tested, there are others that i am pretty sure won't be getting suspect tested but still force you to run multiple checks or hard counters, such as Greninja.

Furthermore, of course Aegislash loses things by switching sets. If it uses SubToxic it loses coverage against important Pokemon (Bisharp, Clefable, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Digersby) as well as priority, if it uses three attacking moves it can't break through Pokemon such as Mandibuzz, Hippowdon, SpD Dragonite, bulky Mega Zard X and Mega Zard Y, with mixed sets it misses on a ton of survivability as well as on ability to switch into stuff and check offensive Pokemon, and finally with SD it gets checked by some physical tanks/walls that it wasn't before, such as Landorus-T, Gliscor, Rotom-W, and Quagsire, and similarly to the mixed set, stops being an effective tank. Of course you can cover the Pokemon that every set misses on hitting with your teammates, but so can the opponent, which can partner his Aegislash check with Pokemon that cover the teammates of Aegislash.

As for the reason you run less checks for Keldeo than you do for Aegislash, this is for two reasons. The first, which you mentioned, is that Mega Venusaur and Latias with Roost are pretty much hard counters in a vacuum. This means that you don't need another good check to Keldeo, just one or two revenge killers to it, in case the opponent manages to get past your Keldeo counter with his Pursuit Tyranitar, or Scald burns + Hidden Power Flying. Now, if you were running a hard counter to Aegislash, such as SpD Gliscor or SpD Amoonguss, you wouldn't need a lot of Aegislash checks too, just a few faster Pokemon able to threaten it offensively, which is not hard at all due to its common weaknesses. Yes, both Amoonguss and Gliscor lose to the SD set, but in the same vein SubCM Keldeo can beat Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss, but i don't see anyone not treating those two Grass-types as Keldeo counters. SD Aegislash is a solid set, but not on par with his overall most effective sets (the other three), because he needs to set up in order to start threatening stuff and leaves more room to cover it if you make a mistake in the beginning (say you bring in a wrong check, then you can just sac your least useful Pokemon in order to bring in your faster Ground-type, or you can even send your faster check immediately in if the situation allows it (eg. Bisharp, which only fears Sacred Sword and can OHKO with Sucker Punch)). The second reason is of course that Keldeo is not on the same level as Aegislash, but that doesn't make Aegislash automatically broken.

Finally, no, requiring multiple checks doesn't necessarily make something broken, there are threats that are even harder to wall or check and are not even close to broken (Greninja, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Charizard Y). Yes, all those Pokemon have flaws that prevent them from becoming broken, such as being frail, slow, or SR weak, but Aegislash has big flaws too, which have been mentioned plenty of times and prevent it from being broken, at least imo. I am not saying that Aegislash is on the same level as those threats, because we all know that Aegislash is one of the best OU Pokemon, but a Pokemon can still be the best without being broken.

And try to not always assume the worst out of my posts (in terms of intent), k thx!

 

[Halcyon.]

The main thing to see are the weaknesses it has:

Fire: most fire moves are special, so disregard king's shield. Physical ones are what to watch out for
Ground: EQ and earth power are the common stuff seen. Both ignore the -2 from KS
Ghost: mainly Shadow ball. Ignores the -2 from KS
Dark: Do we see much. Bish can hurt it, and defiant negates the KS effect, and with knock off, it can hurt. Greninja can hurt it bad with dark pulse.

See what I'm getting at. The major stuff in the meta that hurts it the most ignore the -2 from KS



That's one gripe about it: Versatility. It is hard to have one pure counter, just multiple checks.

I hate when people say this because you're looking at the game inside a vacuum rather than at the specific meta that we have. It's like when people post in RMTs that they "added Keldeo to deal with Fire types!" Well that's not super smart considering Keldeo can't switch in on Zard Y and it can't revenge Zard X. People who make the argument you're making are doing the same thing. Instead of saying "it's weak to common types" you have to look at WHY these types are common. Dark Pulse on Greninja, for example, is a perfect example of Aegislash's effect on the metagame. Greninja runs it ONLY because of Aegislash. All of it's other coverage moves hit at LEAST two Pokemon but Dark Pulse hits just one. Earthquake may be "common" but why is it common and what is using it? Yeah Garchomp and Landorus-T use Earthquake because it's STAB, but why the fuck is Pinsir using it? Why don't you see Sub Swords Dance Terrakion or Double Dance? Because it has to run Taunt or EQ in order to beat Aegislash. Saying Ghost is common is stupid because outside of Aegi the only Ghost is Gengar which can't switch into Aegislash and obviously won't appreciate taking a Shadow Sneak.

So what I'm trying to say is that you can't look at the game in terms of type weaknesses because that's not what the game is. It's a game of specific Pokemon. And these things you mentioned are really only "common" because of Aegislash's ridiculous amount of pull on the meta.

 

[AsynchronousIO]

My first post in a long while, so here goes.

This isn't so much an argument as a smell test, so to speak. But here are my thoughts.

Every gen since IV, there's always been that one Pokemon introduced that, while not apparently broken at first, has everything going for it. Typing, stats, movepool, ability, you have it. And then there's this one gameplay mechanic/metagame characteristic that pushes it way over the top.

Gen IV had Garchomp. I think we all know how good Gen IV Chomp was. It had great power and speed, more natural bulk than Swampert, near-flawless STAB coverage, and the right moves (Swords Dance, double STAB, then your choice of Fire Fang/Fire Blast/Stone Edge/Sub) to take advantage of it all.

What mechanic pushed Garchomp over the top? Resist berries. Yache Berry turned Garchomp from a fast powerful setup sweeper to a fast powerful setup sweeper that got past his would-be revenge killers. Thanks to his 108/95/85 natural defenses, he could survive Ice Shard and/or random HP Ice and continue sweeping. (Yache was the breaking set, though SubSD was not nice either.)

Gen V had Excadrill. Typing that protected him from TWave and Toxic, a great primary STAB in EQ, Swords Dance, incredible power, an ability that under the right conditions (which were fairly easy to guarantee, because Tyranitar is so good) made him nigh impossible to catch outside priority, and just enough natural bulk to survive some priority from full health, plus double resistance to SR and Rapid Spin meaning he could spin away hazards if he so wished.

What pushed Exca over the top? Weather wars. It may be a bit counterintuitive that introducing Drought Ninetales and Drizzle Politoed, things that would ostensibly weaken Excadrill by taking his favored weather, would break him instead, but the shift of the meta towards weather was what fostered playstyles that put Excadrill in use--without weather wars, arguably Sand Offense would've been a gimmick in the same way that BP was. Excadrill's bustedness was hidden because of all the other broken things Drizzle (and Blaziken) did, and as a result we played with that mole for several months until we wised up and gave him the boot. While Drizzle was a pain in the behind (Keldeo should've gone to hell, really) and I was all for a Politoed ban in BW, Sand HO was broken too. SubSD Sand Veil Chomp was there, for one, and then you had Excadrill.

Is Aegislash, as a whole, this gen's equivalent of those two? Let's see. Base stats? Can't get better than having practically 150 in four of them, and one of his weaker stats (Speed) is a blessing thanks to Stance Change. Typing? We all know how great Ghost/Steel is both offensively and defensively. Ability and movepool? Sacred Sword (that's a musketeer move!) is a move that dicks some of his usual checks, and King's Shield shenanigans have been explained in depth already, though I'll go back to that in a bit.

What game-breaking mechanic pushed Aegislash over the top? The new type chart, of course. Fairies meant that bulky Steels were even more invaluable than ever, and the Steel nerf made Shadow Ball stupidly spammable.

Furthermore, one argument for Excadrill and Garchomp's ban was that they could BS past their checks/counters anyway. Chomp had Yache to fuck up its would-be revenge killers, Drill had Balloon or Rock Slide flinch hax that made even Skarmory and Gliscor sometimes unreliable. Aegislash has King's Shield. It's like Protect with an added threat of crippling the opponent. Seen the posts about Aegi being able to beat Zard-X of all things? Yeah.

We know what the verdicts on the first two were. I think it's time we wise up, people. Whenever Game Freak makes that one Pokemon that is not legendary but made for greatness nonetheless, it pretty much means that the metagame is gonna shift in its image, every team is gonna be that + 5 mons, and more often than not that's not good times for anyone. That alone doesn't warrant a ban, admittedly (Gen IV Scizor is not something I would've called a ban for) but when you combine it with such greatness and lack of crippling flaws and ability to overcome what shortcomings it has, then you get something that needs to get the hell out of the meta.

 

[jg1198]

I personally think having the entire metagame revolve around aegislash (and don't fool yourself, because it certainly does) is a very unhealthy thing, but at the same time, banning Aegislash will turn the entire metagame on its head, and I think that team matchup will become more important than skill with all the strong megas that become so much more insanely strong without Aegislash running around. If we as a community do decide to ban Aegislash, I think it is for the best to take UU's suspect testing approach. We should ban everything that even might be broken, and quickly retest them one by one to decide whether or not they truly are broken, starting with the pokemon least likely to be considered broken.

My reasoning for this suggestion is the sheer number of offensive threats that become so much more viable without aegislash. For example, Mega Pinsir can now run Close Combat over Earthquake, and finally has a chance to break through Skarm and Rotom-W. Mega Gardevoir and Mega Medicham both just lost their biggest counter. Mega Scizor can now run bug bite over knock off and smash through things that used to wall it. Mega Heracross can finally run Swords Dance or Bullet Seed over Earthquake, and utterly destroy stall. Even Latios becomes scary as all hell without Aegislash, as a simple Specs set with Draco Meteor, Psyshock, Thunderbolt and Surf 2hko's almost the entire metagame minus pink blobs. And all of these are just off the top of my head.

The biggest thing I'm worried about with banning Aegislash is that the suspect tests that will inevitably come after will take up to a year before they are likely all finished, and for that reason, I think we should use UU's suspect strategy, because as annoying as it might be, it has proven both very fast and very effective.