np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[BKC]

50/50 should actually be a good thing about a pokemon

no wonder the ridiculousness of 50/50s is downplayed in this thread... if people who make arguments like this really understood what 50/50s are, then they wouldnt be saying that theyre actually a good thing to have. i posted this in victory road thread but i may as well use it again:

lets use this dpp late game scenario to illustrate a 50/50: youve got a scarf infernape (god knows why) out with a 40% shaymin in the back, your opponent 50% cm jirachi out and 50% passho heatran in the back.
- if you use close combat and jirachi stays in, you lose
- if you use fire blast flamethrower and jirachi stays in, you win
- if you use close combat and heatran switches in, you win
- if you use fire blast flamethrower and heatran switches in, you lose

there is no "right" move here. this is what battling against aegislash is like.

gr8 also talked on the previous page about actual examples against aegislash, so if my dpp point here wasnt enough, go read his post.

Aegislash is definitly a ghost of prediction

its a ghost of perdition,,

 

[Deaga]

Also, what one should vote when divided is a matter of ideology. If you believe that it's better to ban something not broken than to keep in OU something broken, then vote for Ban. However, if you believe that it's better to keep something broken and ban it later, instead of banning something potentially non broken for ever, then vote No Ban. As for Abstain, it's truly a pointless option and i don't even get why it exists but whatever.

Aren't voters directed to vote for "Do not Ban" if they're unsure? I remember some older suspect tests had that recommendation.

 

[RHunterN]

The 50/50 situation involving Aegislash is very much in its user's favor.

Consider a situation where your opponent has an Aegislash while you have a Choice Scarf Garchomp or a Sand Rush Excadrill, while your opponent also has a healthy Rotom-W in the back. What move do you go for? Surely you have to Earthquake, as in all likelihood the Aegislash will just scout with King's Shield. So you Earthquake and it went for King's Shield as predicted. Congratulations, you "won the first 50/50". Now we enter the second 50/50. Do you Earthquake again, or do you switch out predicting the obvious Rotom-W coming in? What if you predict the switch and he stayed in and Shadow Ball? Or what if, since you can hardly afford to overpredict in the first turn, he went to Rotom-W directly, and thus free to Volt Switch/Hydro Pump/WoW as he likes? So in essence even if you predict right the first time, it will only lead to a second fifty-fifty. And this is only considering a scenario without King Shield's side effect.z

I have absolutely no right to make a comment on whether or not Aegislash should be banned. I don't have enough singles experience, being mostly a doubles player. However, I'm reading through this thread as I find it interesting. I do believe your argument for the 50/50 argument is a horribly structured argument, however. That is not a 50/50. You set up a scenario where the player battling the Aegislash can't possibly win. If a Scarf Garchomp is the only Pokemon left vs a Aegislash/Rotom-W combo, it has literally no way to win, no matter the move choice. Unless of course, you meant there is more than just Garchomp left of the player's team.

I want to explain why I think this 50/50 argument is a load of crap. Yes, the player has a difficult scenario. I'm going to expand upon your original scenario. Scarf Garchomp vs Aegislash on the field. The Aegislash's side has a Rotom-W in the back and the Garchomp side has something in the back that can't take a Shadow Ball, but can counter Rotom-W. What it is doesn't matter, just the concept of it. Both players are in a similar position. Should the Aegislash KS and scout? Is the Garhcomp's EQ too obvious? If I switch into Rotom to take the EQ, is the opponent going to predict that and go into the Rotom counter? There is no right answer here either. The Aegislash could choose Shadow Ball and die to a EQ. Or, if it decides on KS, then the next turn is the exact same thing. The only way to break this so called 50/50 is to analyze your opponent the entire match. If the player is playing the game as if it is a strategy game, they should have a better understanding of what the opponent will do. It isn't an exact science, but that's why we call it a prediction. Or better yet, an educated guess.

No one knows for sure what their opponent will do. The best thing you can do as a player is make an educated guess based on the battle's history. I hear very often, "Don't predict the first turn". This is pretty sound advice since you have no idea how your opponent plays. As the battle goes on, you have research to refer to. You've seen the player in action. Almost every single match up in the game is 50/50. Unless you're battling yourself, you can't say what you know your opponent is going to do. Aegislash is absolutely no different. Players will play an Aegislash according to their team and style. Maybe that makes it unpredictable, but so does running a physical Pyroar. Just because you can't predict it, doesn't mean it is a 50/50 situation.

That's all I really have to say. I really can't see your points on the 50/50 since the game is based on educated guesses. Just because you think something will happen, doesn't mean it will. The Aegislash user has to make decisions as well. They can't just click a button.

 

[Vivmeister10]

What pro-ban just doesn't get is a 50/50 is a natural occurrence of the game. Heck, team matchup is too. So what if your forced to make more guesses. Isn't that what skill is? It just isn't an argument that holds any water and it has really been blown out of proportion the entire thread. Even hearing it being compared to swagplay is just nonsensical. Aegislash imo, promotes high level play and more intelligent teambuilding, and no, running EQ as coverage is not a bad thing as we've already covered. The general attitude is pro-ban just wants it gone so the meta does't have to deal with it. And sorry, nothing stated has proved otherwise. This will be my final thoughts on this, take it as you will.

 

[Zebstrika]

The Aegislash user has to make decisions as well. They can't just click a button.

Actually, there's nothing stopping them from flipping a coin back there behind their screen. With most predictions throughout the game, if somehow you know they are flipping a coin, you can pick the option that is more rewarding and/or less risky, and you stand to gain more on the half you win than you lose on those other half. But Aegislash forces a lot of situations there is no "better option" that you can lean towards and it makes the skill part of prediction, risk/reward analysis, irrelevant.

Well, a lot of times, Aegislash would force these situations (like vs almost any contact attacker with a good move to use on KS turns) but both players know they can't actually give themselves a good shot at winning it, so they naturally avoid getting themselves into situations where they can potentially lose their pokemon to mindless guessing.

I guess I don't have a point to make about that (it's not like we're running out of earthquake/fire blast users who somewhat avoid the 50/50s), I just don't want people to think that there is some skill based method to win 50/50s, "outplay the 50/50" isn't a good counterargument.

 

[gr8astard]

I have absolutely no right to make a comment on whether or not Aegislash should be banned. I don't have enough singles experience, being mostly a doubles player. However, I'm reading through this thread as I find it interesting. I do believe your argument for the 50/50 argument is a horribly structured argument, however. That is not a 50/50. You set up a scenario where the player battling the Aegislash can't possibly win. If a Scarf Garchomp is the only Pokemon left vs a Aegislash/Rotom-W combo, it has literally no way to win, no matter the move choice. Unless of course, you meant there is more than just Garchomp left of the player's team.

I want to explain why I think this 50/50 argument is a load of crap. Yes, the player has a difficult scenario. I'm going to expand upon your original scenario. Scarf Garchomp vs Aegislash on the field. The Aegislash's side has a Rotom-W in the back and the Garchomp side has something in the back that can't take a Shadow Ball, but can counter Rotom-W. What it is doesn't matter, just the concept of it. Both players are in a similar position. Should the Aegislash KS and scout? Is the Garhcomp's EQ too obvious? If I switch into Rotom to take the EQ, is the opponent going to predict that and go into the Rotom counter? There is no right answer here either. The Aegislash could choose Shadow Ball and die to a EQ. Or, if it decides on KS, then the next turn is the exact same thing. The only way to break this so called 50/50 is to analyze your opponent the entire match. If the player is playing the game as if it is a strategy game, they should have a better understanding of what the opponent will do. It isn't an exact science, but that's why we call it a prediction. Or better yet, an educated guess.

No one knows for sure what their opponent will do. The best thing you can do as a player is make an educated guess based on the battle's history. I hear very often, "Don't predict the first turn". This is pretty sound advice since you have no idea how your opponent plays. As the battle goes on, you have research to refer to. You've seen the player in action. Almost every single match up in the game is 50/50. Unless you're battling yourself, you can't say what you know your opponent is going to do. Aegislash is absolutely no different. Players will play an Aegislash according to their team and style. Maybe that makes it unpredictable, but so does running a physical Pyroar. Just because you can't predict it, doesn't mean it is a 50/50 situation.

That's all I really have to say. I really can't see your points on the 50/50 since the game is based on educated guesses. Just because you think something will happen, doesn't mean it will. The Aegislash user has to make decisions as well. They can't just click a button.

I'm not talking about a Scarf Garchomp alone vs two Pokemon, you can pick any Rotom-W counter you want as long as Aegislash beats it for an equal playing field as physically defensive Rotom-W > Scarf Garchomp / Non MB Exca > Aegislash > let's say Latios > Rotom-W. In normal situations the odds shouldn't overwhelmingly favor anyone given the relationship between these Pokemon, however that is not the case when it involves Aegislash thanks to King's Shield and its ability to both tank hits and deal a crapload of damage. You can make an infinite amount of double switches and it still will get you nowhere. Also the example above isn't limited to an endgame scenario, however when you say "predict the King's Shield" what are you supposed to switch into, if the Pokemon that is on the field right now is your means to kill it?

The reason I didn't bother elaborating further was because the scenario I described is something almost all singles player is all too familiar with. Even if you win the first 50/50 vs an Aegislash you will still have to win the second one to even have a chance to get anywhere. Also keep in mind that Earthquake from Garchomp comes nowhere close to killing max HP Aegislash. Your definition of predictions, while helpful, isn't really relevant to the topic at hand.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I was on the anti-ban side at the start of the suspect test and now I'm even more so.
I completely reject the 50/50 argument for a simple reason: the outcome of King's Shield mindgames is in the hands of both players. It's not RNG-based. It's not entirely in Aegislash's favor.

Just because it's not RNG generated doesn't mean it isn't random-- besides, randomness is not the problem.

The problem is that any OTHER Pokemon in the situation where Aegislash uses King's Shield would have NO 50% chance-- but would be simply left with the choice of "sac myself or give the opponent a free turn."

In Aegislash's case, he's given the choice of:

"Sac myself while almost preventing any potential set up because my coverage and power is so broke."

or

"Take the chance to King's shield that MAY give them the chance to set up in some very rare circumstances, but will generally just give me a 50% chance to fuck them over and troll-bitch-slap an enemy that would otherwise solidly beat me."

and given the chance of:

"Maybe he'll brain-fart and think I'll King's Shield, using something useless or switching and giving me another free shot to smack him with my stupidly good Shadow Ball!"

King's Shield gives Aegislash a chance to bullshit it's way out of situations no other Poke would have ANY hope in. It's amazing power and coverage allows it to run King's Shield without a great loss, and the move has a lot of creative utility for a multitude of sets beyond just fucking over physical sweepers that would otherwise destroy it.

Thinking about this as 50-50's is the wrong mindset. Thinking of this as similar to the banned DPP/BW Sand Veil Chomp is the best way-- where an already good Pokemon is given a chance to BS it's way through situations it should rightfully lose.

Most of the attacks you'd use against Aegislash aren't even affected by KS: Earthquake/Earth Power, Fire Blast, Shadow Ball for SE damage, as well as Scald/Surf/Hydro Pump and Thunderbolt for neutral damage. Knock Off and Sucker Punch are pretty much the only contact moves you'd want to use against it, but discouraging the use of such powerful moves is actually healthy for the metagame. And even then, the main user of these moves, Bisharp, actually benefits from KS.

Except that it totally screws over Pursuit, which is otherwise the biggest risk to the Ghost type. Not to mention Crunch. Not to mention Flare Blitz. Or Waterfall.

You can't just shrug off moves like Knock Off not being able to hit it either, since Aegislash being a Ghost (and a Steel-type on top of it!) the options any given Pokemon will have to hit it will be decidedly limited. I mean, just look at how much chaos something as frail as Gengar can cause with Sub-Disable. With Aegislash's sturdiness and resistances, King's Shield can really throw a wrench in a given Pokemon's ability to do anything to it.

Finally anything with stats moves such as Leech Seed and WoW turns this 50/50 into a 0/100: if Aegi doesn't switch out it's getting either crippled or OHKO'd. Forcing something out is considered a successful attempt at checking or countering and since many viable pokemon can do this to Aegislash it's by definition not broken.

Except... Aegislash is the Pokemon that decides when to King's Shield and when to just get out of there. When was the last time you saw Aegislash use King's Shield against something that frequently uses W-o-W or Leech Seed? Not to mention neither of those moves are necessarily a big issue-- I'll often purposefully stay in on Rotom-W's WoW because a burn to my modest Aegi is a small price to pay for a chance of smashing Rotom's often squishier special side with a massive Shadow Ball.


Basically, all your arguments are absurd.

 

[Jukain]

lemme attempt to explain what cbb means by an undesirable meta. note: much of this is strictly related to aegislash. here's why i consider this meta undesirable.

- easy buttons for teambuilding. by this i primarily mean aegi and thund-i. these two pokemon take so much strain and creativity out of teambuilding, especially for offense. with thund-i, you don't have to give a shit about boosting sweepers. they're all accounted for in one pokemon that happens to already be naturally faster than most of the tier and absolutely devastate much of it too. aegi holds back a lot of things, including as cbb aluded to certain mons that we're given an illusion that are good for the meta.

- multiple versatile, powerful pokemon with few/no counters. by this i'm talking about aegi and thund again, but also things like mawile and debateably some others, like char x. this exacerbates the matchup component of the game because it is so difficult or even impossible to prepare for these pokemon in their entirety.

- staleness, by this i mean the fact that the meta has barely changed since may, even with the banning of the deos, aegi is holding so much stuff back and creating a mask of balance. so many of the same/similar builds, one of the few things is spdef gliscor which is one of the few good aegi answers.

you can feel free to disagree, but i can't see how anyone could want this meta.

 

[Baharoth]

I'm not talking about a Scarf Garchomp alone vs two Pokemon, you can pick any Rotom-W counter you want as long as Aegislash beats it for an equal playing field as physically defensive Rotom-W > Scarf Garchomp / Non MB Exca > Aegislash > let's say Latios > Rotom-W. In normal situations the odds shouldn't overwhelmingly favor anyone given the relationship between these Pokemon, however that is not the case when it involves Aegislash thanks to King's Shield and its ability to both tank hits and deal a crapload of damage. You can make an infinite amount of double switches and it still will get you nowhere. Also the example above isn't limited to an endgame scenario, however when you say "predict the King's Shield" what are you supposed to switch into, if the Pokemon that is on the field right now is your means to kill it?

The reason I didn't bother elaborating further was because the scenario I described is something almost all singles player is all too familiar with. Even if you win the first 50/50 vs an Aegislash you will still have to win the second one to even have a chance to get anywhere. Also keep in mind that Earthquake from Garchomp comes nowhere close to killing max HP Aegislash. Your definition of predictions, while helpful, isn't really relevant to the topic at hand.

Even if we assume a situation with Exca/Latios vs Aegi/Rotom the Aegi player still has a significant advantage but not due to KS. I mean KS doesnt matter at all in this matchup. EQ and Latios ignore it anyway and Excas only coverage move that is affected by it (Iron Head) doesnt hurt Aegi or Rotom. KS only use in this situation is stalling for lefties recovery so its basicly just a protect. The reason why the Aegi player has an advantage here is mostly that he has a far easier time switching in. Rotom-W can switch into Exca without any trouble over and over again, same for Aegi with Latios. On the other side Exca cant switch into Aegi more than once and while Latios can switch into Rotom multiple times, Rotom can just Voltturn out gain momentum and fuck you up or he plays it save, goes for wow and waits until latios faints to it. The situation is just a bad one for the non Aegi player but it has little to do with Aegi, in fact we could just substitute Aegi with Tyranitar(Crunch instead of Shadowball here) and it would be the same. There arent any 50/50 involved in this matchup because the non Aegi player is forced to play risky if he wants to win while the Aegi player can just play safe without predicting at all and he will still win most likely.

 

[MrCookiepants]

Been playing OU all night, and while I'm not that high on the ladder (around 1500), Aegislash has never once been an issue. It's just too slow to ever be that threatening. It's easily revenge killed meaning its constantly forced to switch out, causing team mates to take damage from hazards and incoming attacks. It rarely sweeps or walls you. It's just kind of there, waiting to get a big hit off on something and then die. It'll usually get at least one kill per match, but then so will a scarfed Darmanitan (which honestly sounds 10 times scarier now that I mention it).

 

[Seth Vilo]

- staleness, by this i mean the fact that the meta has barely changed since may, even with the banning of the deos, aegi is holding so much stuff back and creating a mask of balance. so many of the same/similar builds, one of the few things is spdef gliscor which is one of the few good aegi answers.

you can feel free to disagree, but i can't see how anyone could want this meta.

I'm sorry to go after this specific part, but I think that the reason the metagame didn't change AT ALL after the Deo suspect test is because this suspect test started literally less than 24 hours after they were banned. When in the history of ever has a whole metagame changed that fast? It can't really be expected to change during the suspect test either, since all the people who usually can change the ladder are focused on the suspect ladder. There was zero chance for the ladder to change at all, so that is a bad argument.

Also posting my opinion here cause it seems to be the thing to do. I was lazy and waiyted till the last day to try and get reqs; I only got to 2300 before I admitted defeat for reference. For as much as it matters, I did not like the suspect ladder a whole lot. I did not see a lot of creativity or differences between teams as I went up (excluding the lower levels of the ladder where there was a lot of random stuff and apparently Milotic is queen). Maybe it was because everyone was vicious to get reqsmand vote, but near all the teams were either Excadrill+Tyranitar hyper offense, or some stall attempt (some of which were more effective than others). But many pro-banners claim that Aegis makes the meta stale and unforgiving, but I would argue that its removal does that even more with how that ladder was. And that meta was not as fun to play to me.

I have said my bit and my experience. I was against a ban before, and that position is only more firm after the laddering I did. I don't believe Aegis is broken, and also believe that its presence is a healthy balance to the metagame as a whole. It will probably be banned though, cause I'm a pessimist and the pro ban people seems to be a lot more passionate about this than us anti-ban people. So everyone get your butts ready for more Birdspam and Exca-Tar than ever before; you voted for it.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

I'm sorry to go after this specific part, but I think that the reason the metagame didn't change AT ALL after the Deo suspect test is because this suspect test started literally less than 24 hours after they were banned. When in the history of ever has a whole metagame changed that fast? It can't really be expected to change during the suspect test either, since all the people who usually can change the ladder are focused on the suspect ladder. There was zero chance for the ladder to change at all, so that is a bad argument.

Also posting my opinion here cause it seems to be the thing to do. I was lazy and waiyted till the last day to try and get reqs; I only got to 2300 before I admitted defeat for reference. For as much as it matters, I did not like the suspect ladder a whole lot. I did not see a lot of creativity or differences between teams as I went up (excluding the lower levels of the ladder where there was a lot of random stuff and apparently Milotic is queen). Maybe it was because everyone was vicious to get reqsmand vote, but near all the teams were either Excadrill+Tyranitar hyper offense, or some stall attempt (some of which were more effective than others). But many pro-banners claim that Aegis makes the meta stale and unforgiving, but I would argue that its removal does that even more with how that ladder was. And that meta was not as fun to play to me.

I have said my bit and my experience. I was against a ban before, and that position is only more firm after the laddering I did. I don't believe Aegis is broken, and also believe that its presence is a healthy balance to the metagame as a whole. It will probably be banned though, cause I'm a pessimist and the pro ban people seems to be a lot more passionate about this than us anti-ban people. So everyone get your butts ready for more Birdspam and Exca-Tar than ever before; you voted for it.

How is Aegislash stopping exca-ttar?

252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 338-400 (104.3 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Not to discredit you or anything, but playing the ladder the last day it was up does not give you a good enough idea of how the ladder actually was, all the good players had gotten reqs and everyone was just trolling around at that point. And in regards to your first claim, Aegislash was better in the meta with deoxys forms, meaning he probably more of an impact than he did after they were banned. But something to keep in mind is a deoxys form and aegislash were on the majority of popular teams, now its just aegislash on every team because both of them are broken in their own right. So the reason the metagame didnt change at all the deo suspect test is because aegislash was still in the tier and was just as much of a monster pre-deoxys ban as he is post-deoxys ban.

 

[Seth Vilo]

How is Aegislash stopping exca-ttar?

252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 338-400 (104.3 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Not to discredit you or anything, but playing the ladder the last day it was up does not give you a good enough idea of how the ladder actually was, all the good players had gotten reqs and everyone was just trolling around at that point. And in regards to your first claim, Aegislash was better in the meta with deoxys forms, meaning he probably more of an impact than he did after they were banned. But something to keep in mind is a deoxys form and aegislash were on the majority of popular teams, now its just aegislash on every team because both of them are broken in their own right. So the reason the metagame didnt change at all the deo suspect test is because aegislash was still in the tier and was just as much of a monster pre-deoxys ban as he is post-deoxys ban.

I'm not saying Aegis stops ExcaTar. I'm pointing out what I saw in a meta without Aegis. Nearly every non-stall team I saw was ExcaTar. That is a fact. If you think about it though, that fact can make complete sense. The big three Mons that people said would dominate with Aegis gone are Mega Gardevoir, Medicham, and Heracross. Because of their fragility, Sand Rush boosted Excadrill out speeds and breaks the former two. Also with Aegis gone, heavy offense as a style in general becomes dominant and more powerful, leading to a further increase in the style ExcaTar are played on. Aegis himself doesn't stop ExcaTar, but its absence promotes their presence, as well as Birdspam for the same reason of checking the rise in Garde and Medicham, as well as Hera now. The Birdspam also increases the TTar use as well, who checks Talonflame well, and those who still run EQ on Pinsir, and Choiced Staraptor locked into the wrong move. Excadrill checks the birds otherwise. Its a repeating circle around these all-out offense playstyles. That's what I saw and what I was reporting_ and now trying to logically justify.

And I admit the fact that I waited till the last day possibly biased my findings, but all the people I was against and chatted with were also going for reqs, not trolling as you claim. So I don't necessarily believe that portion because of the conversations I had. I'm just being a messenger here to what I saw and talked about on the ladder.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

I'm not saying Aegis stops ExcaTar. I'm pointing out what I saw in a meta without Aegis. Nearly every non-stall team I saw was ExcaTar. That is a fact. If you think about it though, that fact can make complete sense. The big three Mons that people said would dominate with Aegis gone are Mega Gardevoir, Medicham, and Heracross. Because of their fragility, Sand Rush boosted Excadrill out speeds and breaks the former two. Also with Aegis gone, heavy offense as a style in general becomes dominant and more powerful, leading to a further increase in the style ExcaTar are played on. Aegis himself doesn't stop ExcaTar, but its absence promotes their presence, as well as Birdspam for the same reason of checking the rise in Garde and Medicham, as well as Hera now. The Birdspam also increases the TTar use as well, who checks Talonflame well, and those who still run EQ on Pinsir, and Choiced Staraptor locked into the wrong move. Excadrill checks the birds otherwise. Its a repeating circle around these all-out offense playstyles. That's what I saw and what I was reporting_ and now trying to logically justify.

And I admit the fact that I waited till the last day possibly biased my findings, but all the people I was against and chatted with were also going for reqs, not trolling as you claim. So I don't necessarily believe that portion because of the conversations I had. I'm just being a messenger here to what I saw and talked about on the ladder.

fair point about why exca ttar is promoted more in aegislash's absence and I agree to an extent. I just think exca ttar was already getting more popular regardless, because people are realizing that we have former ubers still rolling around in OU, which is why I want to ban a few more things. This is exactly what Jukain was talking about, aegislash is a coverup to just how much broken things we still have in OU, so it may seem he has a healthy effect on the metagame when in reality he is just making it so we cant see how broken some of the stuff is. This is where I think the proban side loses the antiban, we(probanners) can agree for the most part that as it stands a meta with aegislash may just be better than one without him, but we are looking to make the BEST meta, and we know that the best meta will come when we eliminate aegislash and the pokemon that have been being overshadowed by the shield. So yeah, we need to all not be so shortsighted and realize banning aegislash is a step in the right direction to make this meta as good as it can be. Even if it does not happen immediately after he gets banned(hopefully)

I also think you misunderstood my use of the word "trolling" on ladder, I just use it as a way to say messing around or testing shit, because at that point no one is realistically going for reqs, because it takes alot more time than just one day.

 

[Dread Arceus]

To be honest, this should be mandatory reading before commenting on the 50/50 thing. Like gr8astard said, not only does Aegislash usually have the better odds, but most of its options are very low risk, high reward ones. Because of absurd bulk, there's not a whole that 1HKOs this thing; it's pretty much limited to things like Charizard Y and Modest Choice Specs Gengar. This means that if your Landorus-T was supposed to check Talonflame, well...it just ate a Shadow Ball from 150 base SpA and is going to have real trouble taking on Talonflame now, all because Aegislash is so goddamn bulky it survives a STAB super-effective Earthquake from 145 Attack. So, in reality, you have very few times that don't favor Aegislash, and the 50/50 comes in when you try to figure out exactly what you want Aegislash to deal a crapton of damage to (or set up Sub on).

On a completely different note, I'm curious what the meta will become if Aegislash goes. My theory is the fairy type will get stronger, and Magnezone usage might go up, seeing as how it can now trap every common Steel type not named Heatran. Because of a rise in these two, I'm hoping to see more Fire and Poison types become viable to stop the new threats; things like Arcanine and Entei might be noteworthy finally.

 

[Celticpride]

no wonder the ridiculousness of 50/50s is downplayed in this thread... if people who make arguments like this really understood what 50/50s are, then they wouldnt be saying that theyre actually a good thing to have. i posted this in victory road thread but i may as well use it again:

lets use this dpp late game scenario to illustrate a 50/50: youve got a scarf infernape (god knows why) out with a 40% shaymin in the back, your opponent 50% cm jirachi out and 50% passho heatran in the back.
- if you use close combat and jirachi stays in, you lose
- if you use fire blast flamethrower and jirachi stays in, you win
- if you use close combat and heatran switches in, you win
- if you use fire blast flamethrower and heatran switches in, you lose

there is no "right" move here. this is what battling against aegislash is like.

gr8 also talked on the previous page about actual examples against aegislash, so if my dpp point here wasnt enough, go read his post.

Forgive me if I'm naive, but isn't this natural in the course of a battle? How exactly do you go about ridding the meta of the situation you described above?

 

[Jobes]

Forgive me if I'm naive, but isn't this natural in the course of a battle? How exactly do you go about ridding the meta of the situation you described above?

You can't. But is anyone denying the fact that ridding the meta of Aegislash would greatly reduce the amount of these 50/50 no correct move scenarios? The thing creates these scenarios by the battle, and aside from King's Shield and Sucker Punch 50/50s, these scenarios are phenomenally rare and much more easily avoided.

 

[Baharoth]

You can't. But is anyone denying the fact that ridding the meta of Aegislash would greatly reduce the amount of these 50/50 no correct move scenarios? The thing creates these scenarios by the battle, and aside from King's Shield and Sucker Punch 50/50s, these scenarios are phenomenally rare and much more easily avoided.

Yes, and i have explained like a hundred times already why KS rarely causes 50/50 and why, contrary to what Seevea wrote, the risk of using it is greater for Aegieslash in most cases. The only thing that speaks against KS is the point that Chou mentioned. With the help of KS Aegi can get through situations that would be a sure loss for other mons, however that usually comes along with a severe risk that Aegi has to face which offsets this advantage somewhat.

 

[Maximatrus]

Before I begin, may I say that I am not the person to consult for anything official, I have a horrendous rating in both OU and the suspect test, but I have been on Showdown for a while. Just not Smogon Forums. Thank you.

I would say to ban Aegislash. If you look throuh the X and Y OU list, for one it is pretty short, and for two, every other pokemon is meant to be a counter to Aegislash. Mandibuzz is a good counter, Bisharp is a good counter, Quagsire is a counter. (eh...?) Entire OU teams are bent around countering Aegislash, if each of your pokemon doesn't have either a noncontact move or a super effective move, you're out of luck for climbing the ladder. Due to this, almost every OU team is the same. Really, a ban to Aegislash would shake up the game. Pokemon like Assault Vest Conkelldurr would see more usage, pokemon like Hawlucha would be viable, (Really, only one decent Aegislash killing move?) pokemon that are of types like Fairy or Ghost would see more usage. Maybe Mega Tyranitar or Alakazam would be more viable. In short, you would see a lot more unique pokemon if Aegislash was banned from OU.

My second point is that, due to Stance Change, Aegi has a pseudo 720 BST. This is tied with Arceus for the highest non-mega BST of ALL POKEMON. Even Ubers. The only pokes that have higher are the two M-Mewtwos. If that doesn't put it in Ubers, idk what does.

My third statement is about Kings Shield. This move, for those that don't know (Mainly all of the people who say Aegi should stay) is exactly like Protect, except it halves the attackers Atk if it blocks a contact move. This means that if you try to use Knock Off to slap off its Leftovers or Weakness Policy (Which activates before it gets knocked off) then you either get killed because of your attack drop or switch and get killed by Shadow Ball (There arent Normal ypes in OU.) Kings Shield has priority, so any pokemon that doesnt get an attack drop has to deal with Shield Forme on the next turn due to its terrible speed, and then it uses Priority Kings Shield the next turn. You never get the chance to attack Blade Forme. This is a game breaking move. If you dont ban Aegislash, ban Kings Shield.

For all of you whining about losing your shiny new toy, just use Doublade. It can run Eviolite and has a half decent Atk stat that you can use Swords Dance with. I have one that I use in X and Y that owns with Gyro Ball. With that, I'm done.

 

[The Rubber Poké]

There's a good reason Aegislash is currently the most used Pokemon in OU. Not only is it the most versatile one, but also the most unpredictable one. You never know what to expect from it, except for King's Shield.

With Base 150 Defenses that switch with its Attack and Special Attack due to Stance Change, Aegislash has some powerful moves at its disposal.

Its only bad stat is its Speed, which it uses to its advantage because Aegislash takes hits really well, but then follows it up by hitting hard.

I think if Aegislash were to get a ban, the metagame would change completely. We can finally see more of Starmie again, and things like Mega Medicham will be more commonly seen. Aegislash successfully altered the entire usage of most Pokemon all by itself, and it's unlike anything else you'll face in battle. It plays mindgames, it either stalls, sweeps, or both, and like many here have said, with Stance Change, Aegislash's BST is equal to Arceus. I won't deny Aegislash isn't fun to use. But I always feel guilty using it. If a team isn't based around countering or checking it, Aegislash can ruin a team. It can have fun in Ubers where it belongs.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

Yes, and i have explained like a hundred times already why KS rarely causes 50/50 and why, contrary to what Seevea wrote, the risk of using it is greater for Aegieslash in most cases. The only thing that speaks against KS is the point that Chou mentioned. With the help of KS Aegi can get through situations that would be a sure loss for other mons, however that usually comes along with a severe risk that Aegi has to face which offsets this advantage somewhat.

Please do not think that because you seem to have some mastery prediction skills that are able to transcend all the random factors that a person goes through before making a decision, that Aegislash does not promote more 50/50s. You did not explain anything, you used your opinion to say that people should be able to predict what their opponent will do and assess the risk/reward of each play, well congrats that is what every competent player already knows. What we are saying is that despite all those factors the predictions are too convoluted around aegislash at this point, you could assess and predict all you want but when Aegislash is involved he could pick any move and he could just guess randomly because the Aegislash user knows that the mindgames are too convoluted to make any reasonable prediction.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I would say to ban Aegislash. If you look throuh the X and Y OU list, for one it is pretty short, and for two, every other pokemon is meant to be a counter to Aegislash. Mandibuzz is a good counter, Bisharp is a good counter, Quagsire is a counter. (eh...?) Entire OU teams are bent around countering Aegislash, if each of your pokemon doesn't have either a noncontact move or a super effective move, you're out of luck for climbing the ladder. Due to this, almost every OU team is the same. Really, a ban to Aegislash would shake up the game. Pokemon like Assault Vest Conkelldurr would see more usage, pokemon like Hawlucha would be viable, (Really, only one decent Aegislash killing move?) pokemon that are of types like Fairy or Ghost would see more usage. Maybe Mega Tyranitar or Alakazam would be more viable. In short, you would see a lot more unique pokemon if Aegislash was banned from OU.

Here's the problem with the above statement. . . That's not the reason Bisharp and Mandibuzz are OU. They're both there for the same reason however, and that's Defog. Being able to counter Aegislash is just a benefit. With aegislash gone, if he goes, you will still see Mandibuzz and Bisharp, I promise. Also, for future reference, although it has been brought up way too many times, and I hate to be quoting just you in this instance, the fact Conk and Hawlucha (or any other Poke) don't see as much usage should not matter here. Sucks to suck. They can deal with it.

 

[Toljik]

Here's the problem with the above statement. . . That's not the reason Bisharp and Mandibuzz are OU. They're both there for the same reason however, and that's Defog. Being able to counter Aegislash is just a benefit. With aegislash gone, if he goes, you will still see Mandibuzz and Bisharp, I promise. Also, for future reference, although it has been brought up way too many times, and I hate to be quoting just you in this instance, the fact Conk and Hawlucha don't see as much usage should not matter here. Sucks to suck. They can deal with it.

When the suspect ladder was up, I didn't see nearly as many Bisharp. If Aegislash goes, it'll still be OU, but it's definitely not going to be in the top 6 like it used to be. Not sure about Mandibuzz because it's not as common on the regular ladder.

 

[Sun King]

When the suspect ladder was up, I didn't see nearly as many Bisharp. If Aegislash goes, it'll still be OU, but it's definitely not going to be in the top 6 like it used to be.

Usage doesn't equate viability. I said earlier how effectively Bisharp pairs with Medicham. I believe we will see plenty of Bisharp in the future. Maybe it won't be top 6, true, but he is still going to be more than just a Defog punisher.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

When the suspect ladder was up, I didn't see nearly as many Bisharp. If Aegislash goes, it'll still be OU, but it's definitely not going to be in the top 6 like it used to be. Not sure about Mandibuzz because it's not as common on the regular ladder.

Whether they are top tier or not, Aegislash is not the reason they are OU.