np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

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Please do not think that because you seem to have some mastery prediction skills that are able to transcend all the random factors that a person goes through before making a decision, that Aegislash does not promote more 50/50s. You did not explain anything, you used your opinion to say that people should be able to predict what their opponent will do and assess the risk/reward of each play, well congrats that is what every competent player already knows. What we are saying is that despite all those factors the predictions are too convoluted around aegislash at this point, you could assess and predict all you want but when Aegislash is involved he could pick any move and he could just guess randomly because the Aegislash user knows that the mindgames are too convoluted to make any reasonable prediction.
I havent been talking about prediction at all. I just stated that all the examples brought here regarding 50/50 arent 50/50 because there is a huge risk/reward component involved in each and everyone of them and therefor there is a right play to make. And whats more, the risks for the Aegiplayer were always higher than for his opponent.

And yes every competent player should be able to see the risk/reward aspect in those szenarios but nonetheless they are brought up over and over again and claimed to be 50/50s. You yourself claimed that Conk vs Aegi is a 50/50 totaly ignoring that Conk is always better of in that situation even IF he runs into KS as even a -2 Knockoff does more damage to Aegi (in addition to knocking off his precious Lefties) as Aegi does to Conk. And all those random factors and mindgames simply dont matter, if you asses the risks and rewards of each play correctly and pick the best course of action you will be just fine even if you misspredict. Thats the whole point of it.

If you want to use the 50/50 against argument against Mawile and Bisharp and their Sucker Punch i am totaly with you, they realy create 50/50 a hell of alot and i wouldnt mind at all if Sucker Punch got banned because of it. But KS is a completely different story.
 
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Here's the problem with the above statement. . . That's not the reason Bisharp and Mandibuzz are OU. They're both there for the same reason however, and that's Defog. Being able to counter Aegislash is just a benefit. With aegislash gone, if he goes, you will still see Mandibuzz and Bisharp, I promise. Also, for future reference, although it has been brought up way too many times, and I hate to be quoting just you in this instance, the fact Conk and Hawlucha (or any other Poke) don't see as much usage should not matter here. Sucks to suck. They can deal with it.
You seem to get a lot of hate in this thread, just saying.
Aegislash is really the only thing preventing Hawlucha from being decent. What I was saying in that paragraph is that Aegislash is really shaping the metagame. It checks too many things, and banning it would see the rise of many good pokemon that dont get much use otherwise, like Starmie as someone suggested.
Also, why not just use Doublade. It's good and not OP. And what about the oher two paragraphs? Are those not reasons to ban Aegislash?
Also, Bisharp cant learn Defog. Durrrr. There are many better defoggers than Mandibuzz, like Scizor and Skarmory. Why is Mandibuzz OU then? Being a Aegi counter.
 
I would say to ban Aegislash. If you look throuh the X and Y OU list, for one it is pretty short, and for two, every other pokemon is meant to be a counter to Aegislash. Mandibuzz is a good counter, Bisharp is a good counter, Quagsire is a counter. (eh...?) Entire OU teams are bent around countering Aegislash, if each of your pokemon doesn't have either a noncontact move or a super effective move, you're out of luck for climbing the ladder. Due to this, almost every OU team is the same. Really, a ban to Aegislash would shake up the game. Pokemon like Assault Vest Conkelldurr would see more usage, pokemon like Hawlucha would be viable, (Really, only one decent Aegislash killing move?) pokemon that are of types like Fairy or Ghost would see more usage. Maybe Mega Tyranitar or Alakazam would be more viable. In short, you would see a lot more unique pokemon if Aegislash was banned from OU.
-We've established Aegislash has few to no actual counters because of its moveset potential. This is also a metagame where a lot of Pokemon have more reliable checks than counters because of the possible utility and the amount of Pokemon.
-Hawlucha may see more usage but still isn't viable in OU because bird-spam is a thing.
-Maybe some more fairies would be seen but Aegislash wasn't the only thing in their way. Other steel types in OU use steel moves. And the only Ghost that becomes more useful really is Gengar, maybe Trevenant.
-Mega T-Tar wasn't affected much by Aegislash because it tends to run EQ. And Mega Alakazam is one of, if not, the only mega Pokemon that is arguably worse than its regular form. Alakazam itself fell to UU because of the priority-based Meta we have in OU. Mega Alakazam is no different.

My second point is that, due to Stance Change, Aegi has a pseudo 720 BST. This is tied with Arceus for the highest non-mega BST of ALL POKEMON. Even Ubers. The only pokes that have higher are the two M-Mewtwos. If that doesn't put it in Ubers, idk what does.
BST itself isn't reason to ban something. Kyurem-B, a cover legendary that struggles with usage in even OU, is proof of that. Granted his situation is in part of his shit movepool, but still. So yeah, it seems you don't know what puts it in ubers.

My third statement is about Kings Shield. This move, for those that don't know (Mainly all of the people who say Aegi should stay) is exactly like Protect, except it halves the attackers Atk if it blocks a contact move. This means that if you try to use Knock Off to slap off its Leftovers or Weakness Policy (Which activates before it gets knocked off) then you either get killed because of your attack drop or switch and get killed by Shadow Ball (There arent Normal ypes in OU.) Kings Shield has priority, so any pokemon that doesnt get an attack drop has to deal with Shield Forme on the next turn due to its terrible speed, and then it uses Priority Kings Shield the next turn. You never get the chance to attack Blade Forme. This is a game breaking move. If you dont ban Aegislash, ban Kings Shield.
Plot twist: There are Pokemon who can viably use non-contact moves to hurt Aegislash. There are also Pokemon who do outslow an Aegislash. Plus not everything dies to a Shadow Ball, normal type or not.
And for the record, Chansey and Smeargle are in OU. Neither beat an Aegislash but it is an ignorant statement to say there are no OU normal types.

For all of you whining about losing your shiny new toy, just use Doublade. It can run Eviolite and has a half decent Atk stat that you can use Swords Dance with. I have one that I use in X and Y that owns with Gyro Ball. With that, I'm done.
lolDoublade. It has shit Special Defense (even after eviolite), horrible speed, and can only run physical moves. I sincerely question you if you think it's a suitable substitute.
 
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You seem to get a lot of hate in this thread, just saying.
Aegislash is really the only thing preventing Hawlucha from being decent. What I was saying in that paragraph is that Aegislash is really shaping the metagame. It checks too many things, and banning it would see the rise of many good pokemon that dont get much use otherwise, like Starmie as someone suggested.
Also, why not just use Doublade. It's good and not OP. And what about the oher two paragraphs? Are those not reasons to ban Aegislash?
Also, Bisharp cant learn Defog. Durrrr.
I haven't seen any hate. I see counter arguments, regardless, that's in no way relevant.

That's fine, but what relevance does that serve in a thread about banning something. The reason we are here is to converse about the banning of Aegislash, reasons why it should, and reasons it shouldn't. Other Pokemon shouldn't matter here. That was what I was going for, but it went over your head.

I'm not going to reply to the third part in hopes you're saying that on purpose.

Also, 50/50s and making stall less viable are not reasons to ban this thing. I'm not saying it doesn't have some broken things, namely Kings shield, but 50/50s, which will always happen regardless of what Pokemon it is, and saving a playstyle are not banworthy arguments.

The controllable 720 BST? Yes. KS? Yes.
As a neutral party, I'm simply saying some of the things brought to the table in this thread seem like fishing arguments.
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Just posting to say that wanting Hawlucha and Starmie to come back to OU is not a reason to ban something, as these Pokemon already have other issues that prevent them from being good.

Baharoth here is a 50/50 scenario that actually happened to my good buddy Subject 18 in FCL. It was Aegislash v NP Thundurus. Aegislash was at 32% and had Lefties. IF Aegislash used Kings shield, it would have recovered to 38% and been outside of Thunderbolt's KO range and could shadow ball the next turn and KO Thundy. If Thundurus went for Nasty Plot on the Kings Shield, Subject won. If he used Nasty Plot and Aegi went for Shadow Ball, he lost. If he used Thunderbolt and Aegi used Shadow Ball, he won. If He used Thunderbolt and Aegi used Kings Shield, he lost. What would you do? That is a true 50/50 because there is no right move. Another one? Ok you have an 80% Charizard X against an 80% Aegislash. If you Flare Blitz, as he Kings Shields, you can no longer KO him whereas Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak will KO you. If you Flare Blitz and he Shadow Balls, you win. If you Flare Blitz as he Kings Shields, you lose. If you DD as he Kings Shields you win, if you DD as he Shadow Balls, you lose. That's a 50/50, you have an equal chance at winning no matter what you pick.

Now you can say that the first example can be done by any Pokemon with Protect but how many of them do you know that can take 32-37% from Thunderbolt while also doing 70% back? And the second example is exclusive to Kings Shield. A Steel type should have no business being able to win in that situation. But Aegislash can.
 
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(Replies for each paragraph in bold)



-We've established Aegislash has few to no actual counters because of its moveset potential. This is also a metagame of checks rather than counters because of all the Pokemon out there.
-Hawlucha may see more usage but still isn't viable in OU because bird-spam is a thing.
-Maybe some more fairies would be seen but Aegislash wasn't the only thing in their way. Other steel types in OU use steel moves. And the only Ghost that becomes more useful really is Gengar, maybe Trevenant.
-Mega T-Tar wasn't affected much by Aegislash because it tends to run EQ. And Mega Alakazam is one of, if not, the only mega Pokemon that is arguably worse than its regular form. Alakazam itself fell to UU because of the priority-based Meta we have in OU. Mega Alakazam is no different.




BST itself isn't reason to ban something. Kyurem-B, a cover legendary that struggles with usage in even OU, is proof of that. Granted his situation is in part of his shit movepool, but still. So yeah, it seems you don't know what puts it in ubers.



Plot twist: There are Pokemon who can viably use non-contact moves to hurt Aegislash. There are also Pokemon who do outslow an Aegislash. Plus not everything dies to a Shadow Ball, normal type or not.
And for the record, Chansey and Smeargle are in OU. Neither beat an Aegislash but it is an ignorant statement to say there are no OU normal types.




lolDoublade. It has shit Special Defense, horrible speed, and can only run physical moves. I sincerely question you if you think it's a suitable substitute.
Well played, sir. Well played.
My main reason to ban Aegi is that all of these things are combined in one pokemon. Ik why Kyurem B is OU and not Ubers, its crap movepool. Aegi has a viable movepool. I forgot about Chansey and Smeargle, but are either of those able to attack back before getting hit by something else like Sacred Sword or Flash Cannon? Doublade is a bad substitute, I agree. I'm just saying it is viable. Ignore that, I only said that because I like it. Horrible speed fuels Gyro ball, btw. EQ is a must for Aegi, but teams should not be set to where every offensive pokemon knows it. There are Ghosts that would become viable. None come to mind, but I'm sure there are. That's the first time I've heard M-Alakazam is worse. Can I ask why?
 
Halcyon in most of my posts regarding this topic i mentioned specificly that in 1on1 situations at the end of a match 50/50s can occure with KS. Thats a fact and i never denied that. Your 2 examples prove it. However, situations like that can be avoided to an degree and arent all that likely to beginn with because the situation has to be so, that after a Kingsshield Aegi can no longer be koed by his opponent, thats not happening every day and is certainly not "creating 50/50 all over the place" as some people here like to make it sound.

So here again, yes there can be 50/50s involving KS, but thats the exception, not the rule.
 
The only other ghosts even viable in OU are Gengar and Trevenant (To an extent). There aren't many ghost types to begin with, most aren't viable for OU.
EQ is one of the most spammable moves in the game. You don't have to slap it on every Pokemon that can learn it, but its usefulness as an offensive type is great for any offense team, with or without Aegislash. And EQ isn't the only non-contact move out there.
 
That's fine, but what relevance does that serve in a thread about banning something. The reason we are here is to converse about the banning of Aegislash, reasons why it should, and reasons it shouldn't. Other Pokemon shouldn't matter here. That was what I was going for, but it went over your head.
Just posting to say that wanting Hawlucha and Starmie to come back to OU is not a reason to ban something, as these Pokemon already have other issues that prevent them from being good.
I don’t think that it is what Maximatrus was trying to argue, but there is some relevance to talking about other Pokémon when considering this ban. Everyone will say that we don’t consider other Pokémon’s viability as a reason for banning. Like we aren’t gonna ban Aegilsahs SO THAT we can start using Hawchula, or Starmie, or Mega Medicham easier. That is really terrible reasoning.

The reason for talking about other Pokémon frequently gets lost because people dispute how much Aegislash affects them and then people start derailing into nit-picky arguments over how useful or not useful they will be in metagames with and without Aegislash. But there’s a pretty important reason. If you step away from getting into the specifics of one Pokémon who may be less or more viable because of Aegilsash, then you realize that even if that one isn’t affected primarily by Aegislash or as much as pro-ban make it out to be, there's still a ridiculously large list of Pokémon that have their usage more or less dictated or at least influenced by just this ONE thing. I don’t think Hawchula would be that great an OU-mon without Aegilsahs but it is one more for the list… one more ‘mon to throw on the heap of guys that has their usage heavily influenced by Aegi.

It’s just (arguably) more proof that Aegislash is too centralizing. But not a reason on it’s own to ban it.
 
Halcyon in most of my posts regarding this topic i mentioned specificly that in 1on1 situations at the end of a match 50/50s can occure with KS. Thats true i never denied that and your 2 examples prove it. However, situations like that can be avoided to an degree and arent all that likely to beginn with because the situation has to be so that after a Kingsshield Aegi can no longer be koed by his opponent, thats not happening every day and is certainly not "creating 50/50 all over the place" as some people here like to make it sound.

So here again, yes there can be 50/50s involving KS, but thats the exception, not the rule.
did you even watch the replay? The end game 50/50 was not the only one that Aegislash created, aegislash ended up taking out charizard-x more or less because of the 50/50s that occur. I dont care if it is a 1/50 chance Aegislash should NEVER be able to beat charizard 1v1 that is just a joke. I mean that is my opinion if you think that it is totally fair that charizard x can lose to a pokemon he hits for SE damage, by forcing 50/50s, then we just are at a fundamental disagreement and there is no more point in discussing it.

Edit: the replay went away ?_?
 
I don’t think that it is what Maximatrus was trying to argue, but there is some relevance to talking about other Pokémon when considering this ban. Everyone will say that we don’t consider other Pokémon’s viability as a reason for banning. Like we aren’t gonna ban Aegilsahs SO THAT we can start using Hawchula, or Starmie, or Mega Medicham easier. That is really terrible reasoning.

The reason for talking about other Pokémon frequently gets lost because people dispute how much Aegislash affects them and then people start derailing into nit-picky arguments over how useful or not useful they will be in metagames with and without Aegislash. But there’s a pretty important reason. If you step away from getting into the specifics of one Pokémon who may be less or more viable because of Aegilsash, then you realize that even if that one isn’t affected primarily by Aegislash or as much as pro-ban make it out to be, there's still a ridiculously large list of Pokémon that have their usage more or less dictated or at least influenced by just this ONE thing. I don’t think Hawchula would be that great an OU-mon without Aegilsahs but it is one more for the list… one more ‘mon to throw on the heap of guys that has their usage heavily influenced by Aegi.

It’s just (arguably) more proof that Aegislash is too centralizing. But not a reason on it’s own to ban it.
Hey, thanks for helping me, appreciate it. :)
9 Tales of Ninetales phrased what I was trying to say perfectly, its not that Aegislash affects a single pokemon, but that it affects so many. I'm just terrible at phrasing that. Side note, Hawlucha is Borderline, isn't it? Dont want to spark a whole argument about its viability, but is that just because it looks cool?
I'm seeing the same thing across almost all posts, including antiban posts, that Kings Shield is OP. Ban Kings Shield if not Aegi, mods.
 
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did you even watch the replay? The end game 50/50 was not the only one that Aegislash created, aegislash ended up taking out charizard-x more or less because of the 50/50s that occur. I dont care if it is a 1/50 chance Aegislash should NEVER be able to beat charizard 1v1 that is just a joke. I mean that is my opinion if you think that it is totally fair that charizard x can lose to a pokemon he hits for SE damage, by forcing 50/50s, then we just are at a fundamental disagreement and there is no more point in discussing it.

Edit: the replay went away ?_?
Only watched the last turns involving Thundy tbh. And regarding the rest i will just quote myself from last page:

Yes, and i have explained like a hundred times already why KS rarely causes 50/50 and why, contrary to what Seevea wrote, the risk of using it is greater for Aegieslash in most cases. The only thing that speaks against KS is the point that Chou mentioned. With the help of KS Aegi can get through situations that would be a sure loss for other mons, however that usually comes along with a severe risk that Aegi has to face which offsets this advantage somewhat.
Yes beeing able to do things like beating Charizard due to KS is an issue but it comes with a good amount of risk for the Aegi player (i.e Aegi faints if he misspredicts) so i think its fair overall. Its a special trait that Aegi has (similar to Heatran with his flash fire) and that can be accounted for by his opponent. Its an advantage sure, but imo its not unfair/gamebreaking because there is a significant drawback involved (i.e giving freeturns against many things).
 
One thing that has been brought up is that the suspect ladder was largely the same without Aegislash. As we've said, that points to Aegislash not being quite so defining as we thought it was. It is my belief that the pro ban side has been overstating the impact he has had. Hawlucha is actually a bad mon to prove this point. Look at some of the meta-defining threats ASIDE from Aegislash: Thundurus, Talonflame, Charizard X, Mega-Mawile. Hawlucha would not be switching into ANY of them. I'm not going to address the "mons that are viable BECAUSE of Aegislash" argument, because that has largely been talked about, and I generally disagree with that.
 
One thing that has been brought up is that the suspect ladder was largely the same without Aegislash. As we've said, that points to Aegislash not being quite so defining as we thought it was. It is my belief that the pro ban side has been overstating the impact he has had. Hawlucha is actually a bad mon to prove this point. Look at some of the meta-defining threats ASIDE from Aegislash: Thundurus, Talonflame, Charizard X, Mega-Mawile. Hawlucha would not be switching into ANY of them. I'm not going to address the "mons that are viable BECAUSE of Aegislash" argument, because that has largely been talked about, and I generally disagree with that.
Can we stop talking about single pokemon *cough Hawlucha* and look at the metagame as a whole? This generation revolves around counters to Aegi, and things that can't do that fall though the cracks. The Smog itself says that Mandibuzz is only in OU because of Aegislash. A ban to Aegislash, or even Kings Shield, would put several pokemon into OU that haven't seen that light. And no, there were a lot of different pokemon used in the suspect ladder. People werent so afraid to delve into lower tiers as to not have to worry about Aegi, and worries were more or less pokemon that were more easially countered, like M-Scizor or M-Venusaur.
 
It's easy to defend Aegislash as balanced by taking all its positives while saying "oh, other Pokemon can do that too, but we're not banning them" but to do so is to magnificently miss the point. Whether we're arguing about its monstrous stats, its great typing, its versatility, or its ability to cause 50/50s and bullshit past its counters (seriously, how the hell does it beat Charizard X of all things), we have to look at those in the context of the big picture, the whole Pokemon and the whole meta. Chou Toshio pointed out a few pages back that this is just like Gen IV Garchomp all over again, a comparison I myself had made in my last post in this thread. Each of these things is often fine on its own (well, the bullshitting past supposed counters is a bit shaky) but when you have them all in one package you get something that is overwhelmingly good, much to the detriment of the meta.

That's the first time I've heard M-Alakazam is worse. Can I ask why?
Because Life Orb Alakazam hits harder than Mega Alakazam, and also has an ability that is far more consistent (Trace is rather situational--it can do awesome things, but it's hardly consistent), while Mega Alakazam is still really frail (55/65/95 is little better than 55/45/95, though iirc it can survive some neutral priority/resisted hits if really healthy). Mega Alakazam can do some neat things with Trace like copy a Flash Fire from Heatran or an Intimidate from Landorus-T but it doesn't quite deliver as much as Magic Guard, the perfect ability for a frail, powerful sweeper (protects from residual damage and allows you to abuse Life Orb/Focus Sash).

Also, TengenAce: Gourgeist-S. Arguably the best spinblocker because it totally shits on Excadrill, the bane of most spinblockers, plus it outspeeds and burns things like Bisharp and Tyranitar. It has an analysis, too. Don't underestimate the pumpkin.

One thing that has been brought up is that the suspect ladder was largely the same without Aegislash. As we've said, that points to Aegislash not being quite so defining as we thought it was. It is my belief that the pro ban side has been overstating the impact he has had. Hawlucha is actually a bad mon to prove this point. Look at some of the meta-defining threats ASIDE from Aegislash: Thundurus, Talonflame, Charizard X, Mega-Mawile. Hawlucha would not be switching into ANY of them. I'm not going to address the "mons that are viable BECAUSE of Aegislash" argument, because that has largely been talked about, and I generally disagree with that.
Banning Aegislash alone won't singlehandedly fix the meta, but it's a step in the right direction. Gen VI is just so broken right now, and that's expected when one new game mechanic allows us to play with things halfway between weaker legendaries and cover-legends (Mega Evolution). I would even argue that everything in S-Rank right now, Pinsirite, Talonflame, and Medichamite/Heracronite need to go, too, but we'll have to see if they really become stupid, and that's probably not within the scope of the thread.
 
Can we stop talking about single pokemon *cough Hawlucha* and look at the metagame as a whole? This generation revolves around counters to Aegi, and things that can't do that fall though the cracks. The Smog itself says that Mandibuzz is only in OU because of Aegislash. A ban to Aegislash, or even Kings Shield, would put several pokemon into OU that haven't seen that light.
Mandibuzz is in OU largely because of Defog. It's also a lot better because of Knock Off being a viable move to run. It is, next to Scizor, the only Defogger that uses Knock Off, and it has great bulk. It can even use Foul Play to hit Bisharp hard if it gets a Defiant boost.

But you're right; let's talk about the entire metagame. The entire tier revolves around the powerful offensive threats I previously mentioned AND Aegislash. The tier has a lot of powerful priority moves being thrown around, which is one of the reasons many previously viable mons, such as Volcarona, are now barely touched. Also, the rise of Dark STAB has contributed to plenty of things being unviable(Starmie, Alakazam to name a few). I personally think that Defog has actually had one of the most significant effects on the tier, but that's beside the point. If there was some hidden threat that was held back purely because of Aegislash, I believe we would have caught a glimpse of it--perhaps in the suspect test, perhaps even before.
 
If there was some hidden threat that was held back purely because of Aegislash, I believe we would have caught a glimpse of it--perhaps in the suspect test, perhaps even before.
I'd make a case for Starmie. Sure, new Knock Off sucks, but Knock Off is really the least of Starmie's problems. Its problem is that its niche as an offensive spinner is jeopardized by the fact that it loses to the best spinblocker in OU. People compare it to Greninja, and Greninja is the better special Water-type revenge killer thanks to Protean, better speed, and more power, but the important thing is that Greninja can't spin. Excadrill is the best spinner in the tier, and a big factor in that is that the premier spinblocker in the tier happens to have a Ground-type weakness. The two next best spinblockers after Aegislash are Gengar and Gourgeist-S. Excadrill needs to be running Mold Breaker to beat Gengar, meaning it's slow as balls now, and Gourgeist just flat-out wins, while Starmie smashes Gengar with Psyshock and 2HKOs Gourgeist with Ice Beam, not caring too much about a burn thanks to Natural Cure and being a special attacker.

Edit: Okay Rock Slide nearly KOs Gengar but point is Starmie can beat it too.
 
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I'd make a case for Starmie. Sure, new Knock Off sucks, but Knock Off is really the least of Starmie's problems. Its problem is that its niche as an offensive spinner is jeopardized by the fact that it loses to the best spinblocker in OU. People compare it to Greninja, and Greninja is the better special Water-type revenge killer thanks to Protean, better speed, and more power, but the important thing is that Greninja can't spin. Excadrill is the best spinner in the tier, and a big factor in that is that the premier spinblocker in the tier happens to have a Ground-type weakness. The two next best spinblockers after Aegislash are Gengar and Gourgeist-S. Excadrill needs to be running Mold Breaker to beat Gengar, meaning it's slow as balls now, and Gourgeist just flat-out wins, while Starmie smashes Gengar with Psyshock and 2HKOs Gourgeist with Ice Beam, not caring too much about a burn thanks to Natural Cure and being a special attacker.

Edit: Okay Rock Slide nearly KOs Gengar but point is Starmie can beat it too.
I should have elaborated more on the impact of Defog. Starmie is also largely unviable because Defog is much easier to slap on to a team. Obviously, there's a niche for Rapid Spin, but if we needed a spinner to beat every spin blocker, we would see a lot more of Mega Blastoise. The fact of the matter is, the metagame shifted away from things like Starmie, and it was not only Aegislash's doing.
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I should have elaborated more on the impact of Defog. Starmie is also largely unviable because Defog is much easier to slap on to a team. Obviously, there's a niche for Rapid Spin, but if we needed a spinner to beat every spin blocker, we would see a lot more of Mega Blastoise. The fact of the matter is, the metagame shifted away from things like Starmie, and it was not only Aegislash's doing.
No it's not. The only options atm that offense has for removing hazards are Lati and Excadrill. Those mons aren't easy to slap on a team, you have to take into account the weaknesses that they bring to the team (being trappable or in Excadrill's case, a reliance on either Sand or Scarf as well as adding an Azu weakness which no offensive team wants). Blastoise isn't used because it takes up a Mega slot and doesn't fit well on offensive teams.

But it doesn't matter if Starmie becomes more viable, that's irrelevant to whether Aegislash is broken or not.
 
No it's not. The only options atm that offense has for removing hazards are Lati and Excadrill. Those mons aren't easy to slap on a team, you have to take into account the weaknesses that they bring to the team (being trappable or in Excadrill's case, a reliance on either Sand or Scarf as well as adding an Azu weakness which no offensive team wants). Blastoise isn't used because it takes up a Mega slot and doesn't fit well on offensive teams.

But it doesn't matter if Starmie becomes more viable, that's irrelevant to whether Aegislash is broken or not.
Point taken, perhaps I was looking at things through defensive-tinted glasses. As to your final remark, I am still unmoved that Aegislash is "broken". I would say that remains true for the Anti-Ban side--it's more a case of "is Aegislash healthy for the metagame". I can admit that Aegislash has had questionable effects on the health of the metagame, however, I believe that there are things more unhealthy(or equally unhealthy) currently in OU. I can understand that Aegislash hampers offensive teambuilding; however the same can be said for some of the highest ranked threats in OU on defensive teambuilding, and we have kept them in OU too.
 
Point taken, perhaps I was looking at things through defensive-tinted glasses. As to your final remark, I am still unmoved that Aegislash is "broken". I would say that remains true for the Anti-Ban side--it's more a case of "is Aegislash healthy for the metagame". I can admit that Aegislash has had questionable effects on the health of the metagame, however, I believe that there are things more unhealthy(or equally unhealthy) currently in OU. I can understand that Aegislash hampers offensive teambuilding; however the same can be said for some of the highest ranked threats in OU on defensive teambuilding, and we have kept them in OU too.
Then we suspect them too. I am all for banning Lando-I, for example, which really gives stall teams not carrying things like SpD Gliscor headaches (and even that won't like taking HP Ice). If Mega Medicham and Mega Heracross prove to put undue pressure on defensive playstyles in the absence of Aegislash, we give those the boot too. Point is, we don't keep something broken just because other things are just as if not more broken. If it's too good for OU, it gets the boot. The other broken things will have their time.

The users saying that Aegislash deserves to be Ubers -- it makes me wonder what purpose does Aegislash bring to Ubers? It would be outclassed big time. I consider Charizard X more broken than Aegislash. Once it has a few DD's, you are prone to a possible sweep. So if anyone deserves a suspect test, i believe it should be Charizard X.
I am all for a Zard-X suspect, but not faring well in Ubers is a poor argument to keep something in OU. Deo-N is pretty bad in Ubers but it stays banned here. Gen V Thundurus-I was one of the worst Ubers but it was still too good for OU.
 
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I don't consider Aegislash broken either. I think for the most part that Aegislash has decent stats and a movepool that makes him a fit in OU. The users saying that Aegislash deserves to be Ubers -- it makes me wonder what purpose does Aegislash bring to Ubers? It would be outclassed big time. I consider Charizard X more broken than Aegislash. Once it has a few DD's, you are prone to a possible sweep. So if anyone deserves a suspect test, i believe it should be Charizard X.
For one thing, Aegislash is already used in Ubers to keep Xerneas from sweeping you. It has to compete with other Xerneas checks but its not totally un-usable in Ubers. And secondly how well you can use something in Ubers doesn't affect how broken it is in OU. Most voters should be trying to avoid this kind of logic when tiering. Even if it wasn't that useable in Ubers you could almost think of sending it there like sending it to a BL tier. Basically, if it's impact on OU is negative it doesn't belong in OU regardless of how well it fits in Uber.
 
Then we suspect them too. I am all for banning Lando-I, for example, which really gives stall teams not carrying things like SpD Gliscor headaches (and even that won't like taking HP Ice). If Mega Medicham and Mega Heracross prove to put undue pressure on defensive playstyles in the absence of Aegislash, we give those the boot too. Point is, we don't keep something broken just because it keeps other broken things in check. If it's too good for OU, it gets the boot.

I am all for a Zard-X suspect, but not faring well in Ubers is a poor argument to keep something in OU. Deo-N is pretty bad in Ubers but it stays banned here. Gen V Thundurus-I was one of the worst Ubers but it was still too good for OU.
I'm not saying we keep Aegi in because he balances broken stuff. Nowhere in any of my posts did I say that. I'm aware that's not how we do things. I am saying I remain unconvinced that he is broken.
 
For one thing, Aegislash is already used in Ubers to keep Xerneas from sweeping you. it has to compete with other Xerneas checks but its not totally un-usable in Uber. And secondly how well you can use something in Ubers doesn't affect how broken it is in OU. Most voters should be trying to avoid this kind of logic when tiering. Even if it wasn't the useable in Ubers you could almost think of sending it there like sending it to a BL tier. Basically, if it's impact on OU is negative it doesn't belong in OU regardless of how well it fits in Uber.
You're assuming that i'm using faulty logic and you shouldn't be jumping to conclusions right away. I don't always reply with explanations ready. I make a few firm points and that's it. Why should i make examples of every post in every thread? I don't have too. I bet that Aegislash is usable in Ubers, but im saying that it shouldn't be in Ubers. I don't believe that Aegislash is broken (many people complain because of the stats). It's a resourceful Pokemon to use in the OU tier for countering Fairies, Psychic, Ghost, and even Dark types. You also implied that just because Aegislash is used in Ubers -- doesn't take away that it's broken in OU. Well that's what you think... I think completely different than you.

Then we suspect them too. I am all for banning Lando-I, for example, which really gives stall teams not carrying things like SpD Gliscor headaches (and even that won't like taking HP Ice). If Mega Medicham and Mega Heracross prove to put undue pressure on defensive playstyles in the absence of Aegislash, we give those the boot too. Point is, we don't keep something broken just because it keeps other broken things in check. If it's too good for OU, it gets the boot.

I am all for a Zard-X suspect, but not faring well in Ubers is a poor argument to keep something in OU. Deo-N is pretty bad in Ubers but it stays banned here. Gen V Thundurus-I was one of the worst Ubers but it was still too good for OU.
You think it's a poor argument... You have a right to express your opinion, but im not taking away anyone believing that Aegislash is broken in OU. I don't compare it by tiers. Your example of Deo-N wasn't needed here, since i know that Deo-N is bad in Ubers. The problem is that i now keep seeing users say "just because a Pokemon is used/part of Ubers doesn't take away the fact that it's broken or too good in OU. Aegislash is good in OU, but users tend to believe that it threatens the balance of that tier. I don't believe Aegislash unbalances OU in any way.
 
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You're assuming that i'm using faulty logic and you shouldn't be jumping to conclusions right away. I don't always reply with explanations ready. I make a few firm points and that's it. Why should i make examples of every post in every thread? I don't have too. I bet that Aegislash is usable in Ubers, but im saying that it shouldn't be in Ubers. I don't believe that Aegislash is broken (many people complain because of the stats). It's a resourceful Pokemon to use in the OU tier for countering Fairies, Psychic, Ghost, and even Dark types. You also implied that just because Aegislash is used in Ubers -- doesn't take away that it's broken in OU. Well that's what you think... I think completely different than you.
Except that it has been said time and time again by normal users and moderators alike that something's viability in Ubers has no influence over how banworthy it is in OU, just like something in UU being sent to BL, RU to BL2, and NU to BL3.

Ubers is a banlist first, tier second. This is a fact.
 
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