np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[AsynchronousIO]

I've actually seen some decent players run Flamethrower Blissey. Blissey is not an attacking mon and I, as a Pokemon player, obviously understand that. However, the point still stands that Aegi isn't overpowered. I get it. It has a good movepool, good stats, an ability to allow it to screw around with your head, and a move to add to that. However, it can be checked, killed, beaten, and semi-countered. I came up with a random thing that can do something to Aegi at the very least to show that there's even half-checks out there for this thing. Mandi may get smacked in the face by Sub-Toxic but Sub-Toxic Gliscor(with a decent 95 atk, 125 def and etc) was the absolute most annoying sub-toxic thing ever and still is. The thing recovers so much health a turn that it spits in your face. Try to switch an Aegi in? Have fun taking a nice Earthquake. Ice Moves? Switch out. But that's not the point here. The point that some of you don't get is that Aegislash, while very good at just about anything to do with tanking a hit and smacking you in the face, isn't too overpowered for OU. It may create an environment where the meta is "more centralized" but not to the extent everyone makes it to be. I make versatile teams at times and I spit in the face of Aegi. and half of the time, I don't even think about doing that.

It can be checked, it can be killed, it can be beaten, it can be countered. But can it be rendered useless? Not that I've ever seen. It will almost always hurt a few things, and it will probably get a key kill that lets something else sweep. It's not a wall because it has no recovery of its own. It's not a sweeper thanks to its poor speed and lack of good setup moves other than SD. But it can be pretty much everything else, and damn good at all of it too. Sometimes all at once.

Gliscor (specially defensive) is a universally accepted counter to Aegislash that stall can run. It is also the only one.

I cannot speak for your experience with Aegislash, but I can tell you mine, and it is that Aegislash is always pulling its weight no matter how overprepared your opponent is for it. And I'm not the only one who has seen this, or who thinks that it is a problem.

 

[Desokoro]

It can be checked, it can be killed, it can be beaten, it can be countered. But can it be rendered useless? Not that I've ever seen. It will almost always hurt a few things, and it will probably get a key kill that lets something else sweep. It's not a wall because it has no recovery of its own. It's not a sweeper thanks to its poor speed and lack of good setup moves other than SD. But it can be pretty much everything else, and damn good at all of it too. Sometimes all at once.

Gliscor (specially defensive) is a universally accepted counter to Aegislash that stall can run. It is also the only one.

I cannot speak for your experience with Aegislash, but I can tell you mine, and it is that Aegislash is always pulling its weight no matter how overprepared your opponent is for it. And I'm not the only one who has seen this, or who thinks that it is a problem.

I respect your opinion of Aegislash and see you know what you are talking about. HOWEVER, that hasn't changed my mind. Aegi is simply perceived as OP when it is only "good" or rather "Great at most things". Banning it is not a move well liked by many, but it obviously has it's support.....the support for a ban on this possessed shield is looking like it outweighs the pressure from people who support aegi being in the meta. we wait to see what happens from here I suppose.

 

[bwburke94]

While Aegislash is not overpowered, it is overcentralizing, and it is best to get rid of Aegi now. Because of the way the tiering system works, August counts for most of this tiering period. If Smogon as a whole want Aegi to be banned, it's best to do it at the start of a "major" tiering month to allow its counters to be tiered in an Aegi-less metagame.

If Aegi is banned at the END of the month, Gliscor and company will be tiered in an Aegi-less metagame according to their usage in a metagame that included Aegi. We can't repeat that mistake. Either ban Aegi now or don't ban Aegi at all.

 

[Jarrod]

People keep saying that Aegi never runs through teams-- but does it really have to?

Did Mega Gar run through teams? Did Genesect? Did 4th gen Wobb? Did 5th gen Deo-A?

No of course not-- and yet these pokes were banned because all it takes is one key kill to decide a game. When you're playing offense, the greatest challenge is to break that first key link in your opponent's defensive core, and the charge speeds up from there.

Often it's not even a kill we're talking about-- sometimes it's just a nice 50-60% chunk of health off of rotom-w that will start a bird sweep. Sometimes that healthy Rotom's wow is the only way your team can deal with Aegi's coverage.

Aegi's not a sweeper, but it's a hell of a wallbreaker, offensive pivot, tank. It can't beat everything, but it can hurt everything-- and it's often a Shadow Ball to the face against key opponents that's all it takes to decide a game.

Offensively it could be any poke that break's the first defensive chain, but it's going to be Aegislash that does it at an absurd frequency because its bulk, power, and coverage means it's good against everything.

Defensively it could be any mon that you use as a fail safe for random sweeper x, but more often enough Aegislash will be another option you got there because it's good against everything.


That's always seemed ridiculous to me, but I guess if you don't think so you don't think so.

I just think it's strange I've never not seen Aegi perform.

If Rotom-W's Will-O-Wisp is the only means of dealing with Aegislash, poor team building is the real issue. Few people build an OU team that outright loses to A+/S rank Pokemon. Another key point to raise here is that no single Aegislash set can hurt everything (too much focus seems to be placed on all Aegislash sets at once without acknowledging Aeglislash as a single entity - the prediction argument can only go so far).

IMO Aegislash will probably be banned because it is an incredible threat to HO teams (as you indicated in your point about Aegi being a fail safe).

 

[Rosen]

My deal with Aegi is that he's made so many good pokemon unusable. Forretress is now a shit-tier spinner solely for this reason, same goes for Starmie. Toxicroak is almost unusable because his STABs literally can't touch the fucker, same goes for Roserade, where Technician HP Fire barely dents it. It resists all moves that hit through substitutes as well as all multi-strike moves bar BONEMERANG/Bone Club of all things, and I don't know about you but I don't see a bunch of Marowaks everywhere, probably because Marowak sucks in every other area of OU, so unless you're packing CroCune or a phaser that can easily handle his SubToxic set (ex. Heatran, bad ex. Skarmory), have fun breakin that shit. And that's just one set of many -- Swords Dance, Automize, physical, special, Shadow Sneak, Pursuit, and an entire clusterfuck of unholy ghostliness. Now let's be clear, here, I'm not saying Aegislash is broken in and of itself -- it isn't. The problem is, so few things can compete with it in the defensive and offensive versatility department that it doesn't have one TRUE counter (except maybe CroCune) and its impeccable typing render a plethora of great pokemon less useful or unusable entirely. To summarize, it's really fucking overcentralizing and is unhealthy for all playstyles. In the personal department, I hate its fucking smug swordy face and I pray to the bebe jeesus this thing gets banned so I don't have to look at it anymore.

 

[ARandomNoob]

1) As has been mentioned, how Aegi does in Ubers has no bearing on whether or not he is too good for OU. Gen V Thund-I was almost never seen in Ubers but was still way too good for OU, so he got banned. Same goes for Deo-N.

2) Sure, in theory, Aegi can be broken by some strong STAB super-effective moves (and even then you're getting a 2HKO) but can users of said moves afford to compromise their effectivity by eating a strong Sacred Sword/Shadow Ball? The problem wasn't so much killing Aegislash, because Aegis is neither a wall nor a sweeper. It is a tank/pivot and wallbreaker rolled into one. It takes hits nicely and just softens up the opposing team to allow something else to run through it. Thanks to its absurd bulk, it will likely have boned a few things with a really powerful Shadow Ball/Sacred Sword and possibly crippled your setup sweeper with King's Shield. Rotom-W and Skarmory taking 50, 60, 70% from Shadow Ball means that Pinsir will now be able to happily plow through your team (not to mention that Skarmory can't do squat to Aegislash either). Charizard-X getting hit by Shadow Ball or DD Tar getting hit by Sacred Sword means that neither will really be able to keep sweeping. Whee.

3) Period of getting reqs is over. You're not getting them this time, and there may be no next time.

Except:

1) What has Prankster + Taunt? You have Thundurus-I, which is arguably just as bad as Aegislash is for the meta if not worse (I hate this damn thing), Whimsicott (which totally kills all offensive momentum and is rather mediocre in general, and if Aegis has Iron Head/Flash Cannon you can say goodbye to this), Sableye (which gets 2HKO'd by Shadow Ball). You never had a horde of Prankster + Taunt users even in Gen V when Prankster became a thing, you had Thund-I (which got banned) and Whimsicott (which fell out of use because everyone figured it out and because it wasn't that good after all the Prankster hype died down).

And you want to Taunt this thing? Sure. Have fun eating a really powerful Shadow Ball.

2) SubToxic may be beaten by your usual offensive team. But what about a stall team, which is the kind of team that SubToxic pretty much shits on? Nothing outside SpD Gliscor counters this set. Not to mention that the idea isn't just to break SubToxic, because, as I am tired of saying, Aegislash is not a wall. You can beat Aegislash. Everyone knows that. But can you ever stop it from being a factor? Can you stop it from reliably hurting something, whether or not it be one of your walls, setup sweepers, revenge killers/cleaners, or defensive pivots? Have fun getting swept by Mega Pinsir or DD Zard X once Rotom-W/Hippowdon has eaten a strong Shadow Ball.

The Gliscor comparison is a little off-base. SubToxic Gliscor has a more weaknesses than Aegislash does. SubToxic Gliscor doesn't fire off obscenely powerful Shadow Balls coming from a fully invested, nature-boosted base 150 Special Attack. SubToxic Gliscor is a good mon, no doubt, it is one of my favorite stallers, but it doesn't put in work against both stall and offense the way SubToxic Aegislash does.

3) The meta has had Aegi for nine months now. I'm fairly sure that's enough time for it to have settled. And althroughout these nine months, Aegislash has been an S-Rank mon that has always, always pulled its weight in battle. Even when the meta slapped EQ on physical attackers that didn't need it otherwise (lolTerrakion) to avoid being boned by it, even when many teams had Bisharp and Mega Tyranitar and Excadrill and Charizard X and users of other strong STAB super-effective attacks against the sword and shield. The problem was never just killing him, though being unable to OHKO him with most moves was part of the problem--it was being able to stop him from getting a key kill or just hurting things in general.

4) Like I keep on saying--please, please look at the big picture. You can go on and on about how harmless individual aspects of Aegislash are, and you wouldn't be incorrect. But do you really want all of that in a single package?

1. Sure, you get something that's really frail, that's when you switch into something that will wall Aegi's ShadowNukes and flip it the bird as it turns tail, such as a Normal type. Sacred Sword? Okay, try a normal FLYING type, for god's sakes, Shadow Nuke isn't unstoppable. All I'm saying is that if KS is your problem, Taunt shits on it. You might not even need Prankster anyway with Aegi's shitty speed.

2. Off base it may be, but it still holds a link to the case. Gliscor may have more weaknesses, but it's using SubToxic with Poison Heal recovery. You need either really fast or priority Ice to nail that sucker down on a substitute setup turn or else you're screwed. This is like how you have to pack EQ for Aegi, yet we got around Gliscor even in the noob tier. What's to say we can't do the same here? On a side note, Gliscor also has access to some moves that for anything Gliscor may fall behind with in stats, it makes up for in actual base power behind moves. EQ or Stone edge hit pretty hard and all have good use in the meta. Aegi depends on that 150 base because it's moves have only mediocre base power. If it were getting all that offense and EQ? Yeah, I'd not want that either, but as of now Aegi needs it's base offenses to even compete. In fact, some others covered Gliscor pretty well above, though AI see you refuted them. But if we're talking SubToxic Aegi counters, Excadrill works well too. Can't be poisoned, and would force Aegi to run a non STAB move to cover it

I don't know about you, but all my Aegi tends to do is bag a single Pokémon, and then the rest of the match plays out and the result would have been the same regardless. That may just be the level I'm at, sure, but Aegi is no sweeper win button. Shadow ball may be powerful, sure, but who says a slow mon can't tank it and retaliate with some SE to bend Blade forme into a hunk of metal? Or you can use Taunt. There's a legion of possibilities that don't require much extra team building thought. But I have to say that if Aegi bagging one of your team members is letting something stomp all over you, you may want to rethink your team. Pokémon that support each other are nice, but when you make them into a overly symbiotic Jenga tower, there's something wrong. If you're facing equally skilled opponents, some bricks are going to come out. If that makes your whole team fall, consider revising. Pokémon that support but do not depend on one another are vital to a winning team.

3. The meta wasn't starring Aegi for nine months, that's for damn sure. When I talk about the meta settling, that includes in the wake of a ban. Did the Deoxys bans pass you by, or are you just trying to twist my words? Sure, Segi had some presence in the pre Deo ban meta, but it's not the same. Nine months? I'm sorry, but NO. Sure, Aegi can always pull its weight, but isn't that practically the definition of an OU Pokémon in the first place? I'm surprised that this is reserved for upper tier OU. If you ask me, pulling their own weight should be a requirement for even D rank OU mon. I mean, if a Pokémon can't pull its weight in OU, then why is it not immediately sinking to UU or lower?

Also, a Greninja packing a Dark Pulse with Expert belt will put a hurting on Aegi shield, almost scoring an OHKO, whilst becoming Dark Type and resisting ShadowBallNuke.

252+ SpA Expert Belt Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 209-247 (64.5 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(209, 211, 216, 216, 218, 223, 223, 226, 230, 230, 233, 238, 238, 240, 245, 247)


252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 105-125 (36.8 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(105, 107, 108, 109, 111, 112, 113, 114, 116, 117, 118, 120, 120, 122, 123, 125)

And god forbid you catch that poor Aegi in blade forme, OHKO guaranteed, numerical output in the upper 400s at minimum with HP investment. Sure, it's unlikely, but if your opponent leaves themselves vulnerable...

Since Greninja is unloading Dark type pain whilst not taking much in return whilst being a glass cannon, Aegi either switches or dies.


4. If I'm not incorrect about all these harmless aspects of Aegi, what makes them more harmful in a single package? Having used Aegi myself, I know it's strengths and shortcomings, and they balance out pretty evenly. Aegi has never been a win button, even in the lower ladder, and it never will be. Sure, Aegi can bag a crucial kill, but that's very situational as once Aegi's out on the field, it has very few places to be switching in and out if it wants that crucial kill so badly.

More last words:
I love how you skated around a pretty important point entirely:
Tough to beat =/= Broken or OP
Now, I'm not saying you have to come up with some refutation for every point, that'd be ridiculous. I merely ask you acknowledge them.

Not only that, please stop dictating what my team is, it gives me an impression that the upper ladder has OU: The Team again, and in that case I don't wish to associate.

 

[Maximanz]

Lets start this off by just saying, Aegislash should definitely be going to ubers. It’s stats are already crazy and i still see it being used in ubers and it does fine in it, hell, it does well in it.


Pseudo 720 BST:

60/150/150/150/150/60.. Do I need to say any more? With one move, it changes forms. Oh and that move has priority. And it’s not a waste of a move… if you touch that fucking shield with your physical attackers, your attack is halved. That’s like being burnt. :/ But it’s worse because they are running some sub-toxic set on your ass causing you to lose more damage every turn.


Aegislash can guarantee a win most of the time.

We’ve all faced one in battle, but pretty much the key to using aegislash, is get rid of all the things that can touch it, and gg. This thing resists so much shit, that most of the time if your earthquakers gone, “OH BUT YOU HAVE TO PLAY IT WELL AND PRESERVE YOUR EARTHQUAKER FOR AEGISLASH” you say, I mean yeah, you have a point, but sometimes your earthquaker just dies and its gg. Sure knock off can kill an aegislash, but you just kings shield and then theyre fucked, send in next pokemon, repeat. I mean aegislash is usually

-Sacked and does a fuckload of damage with its broken shadow ball


-Maybe He’ll predict me to kings shield, set up, and ill hit it with my BROKEN SHADOW BALL

- Well obviously an attacks incoming, lemme just kings shield and i’m good.

- Wow! I know their entire moveset and none of it does shit to aegislash! It happens i run a physical one so lemme just go in there and swords dance until they decide to switch and by then I’ve already killed them with a +4 boosted attack!


“Counters”

One big reason for not banning this thing is a “counter to it.” Okay, first of all you need to waste a whole slot just to kill one pokemon that may or may not be on the opponents team. Then there’s this scenario. You’re ready with mandibuzz, you use foul play! Oh.. it’s a fucking shield with a weakness policy now.. shit, now it’s swords dancing. It iron heads you and youre nearly dead “Wow! I lived, now i can foul play it again and win! Nope its in shield form now” “Well whatever it dies next turn.” Nope, physical aegislash will revenge kill you with a shadow sneak. Then next time you try out a Bisharp just to say if it’ll work this time. You think, “Yay! Knock off is gonna do so much damage!” The fucking King’s Shield ruins your ass and then he comes at you with a sacred sword and EASY OHKO’s.

I hear what you’re saying now. “BUTT WUT IF I PRODICKT ALL THE STUF AND DO SOPER WEL.” You still wasted 1-slot just to counter one pokemon. The rest of the 5-5 battles still going on. Oh wait nvm. It’s 5-4, you had to sack something to switch out safely to your “counter.” Ok, now your counter is in the field because its one of the like, 3 pokemon that counter aegislash. Ok, now the aegislash switches out to something that can counter the counter. Counter’s dead? well tough luck good luck getting through aegislash.


The New Meta Without It.

With Aegislash gone, so many new pokemon can shine, such as

-toxicroak, while i admit isn’t used much, will have a chance to come out of the cave its been living in, BECAUSE AEGISLASH IS IMMUNE TO BOTH ITS STAB ATTACKS.


-Latios and Latias
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 254-302 (84.1 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO “OH but thats not probably not gonna kill it! You have a big chance to survive! ...What are you gonna do? Surf it? Thats the only thing latias and latios can do… And don't say shadow ball, because nobody runs that on them. Oh and thats latias, the bulkier one. Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you, Latios’s chance of surviving. 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 294-348 (97.3 - 115.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO. Not very high, but lets say you got off an attack and lived! Nah, shadow sneak takes you out FOR SURE the next turn so your latios and doin shit.
-Mega Gardevoir
No, you don’t even have to run a physical set to kill this, This thing doesn't stand a chance. Ok lets say youre a special aegislash. shadow ball (you know youre going second), take the incoming shadow ball 252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 146-174 (45 - 53.7%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO. YUS! I GOT IT TO LOW NOW I CAN KILL IT NEXT TURRNNN… Annnnd the weakness policy hits in. its at x2 special attack and attack. needless to say your shadow ball will be the victor. +2 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 492-582 (176.9 - 209.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO Thats a dead mega gardevoir and a +2 aegislash. Not good for your side of the battle. Also if you dont run weakness policy on it, shadow ball + shadow sneak still does the trick to killing mega gardevoir.

-Alakazam
You attack, dont kill, Aegislash uses Shadow ball you’re down to your sash. Shadow sneak youre dead.


-Every damn psychic type. It’s crazy how 1 pokemon can make a bunch of them useless. Absolutely useless.

All the Fucking Movesets

There are three sets I know off the top of my head.

1. Walling Stalling Douchebag|Substitute-Toxic-King’s Shield+A move of your choice.

2. The Special Attacker|Flash Cannon-Shadow Ball-King’s Shield+Substitute

3. The Physical Attacker|Sacred Sword-Shadow Sneak-King’s Shield-Swords Dance

Now you may think “BUT 3 SETSES IS NOOOT AA LOT OF SETSES.” And do you know what I’d say? “There’s like ten sets, I just said the ones I knew off of the top of my head.”

https://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/aegislash

Take a quick look at that page. 9 recommended sets.9 FUCKING SETS. What happens if your “counter” doesn’t work? You’re fucked due to the 720 BST and the crazy movepool. And priority doesn’t kill this thing. It has shadow sneak and zip zap zop’s it’s ass behind it’s shield. You can’t even stall this thing.. Toxic? NOPE! Sure, Will-O-Wisp works, but it’s slow and kind of pointless if it’s a special attacker (which it usually is)


It’s Future in Ubers

This thing could counter Mewtwo-X, fighting types are screwed. Same goes for Mewtwo-Y Psystrike doesn’t even kill Aegislash-Blade. Sub-Toxic Aegislash can out-stall the god of stalling, Lugia. What’s Aeroblast gonna do to Aegislash? Flash Cannon and Iron Head can do some serious damage to Xerneas.

Also, shadow ball doesn’t kill aegislash shield from a mega mewtwo y, if you used swords dance that turn, shadow sneak is going to OHKO the mewtwo no question.


Conclusion

The people who are saying that this shouldn’t be banned is because they use it and it works, their little toy that guarantees victory every fucking time is going to be gone.. If you don’t use it and you don’t want it banned is because your counter to it works 75% of the time. The meta will flourish with aegislash gone. C’mon people. Do the right thing.

 

[Maximanz]

1. Sure, you get something that's really frail, that's when you switch into something that will wall Aegi's ShadowNukes and flip it the bird as it turns tail, such as a Normal type. Sacred Sword? Okay, try a normal FLYING type, for god's sakes, Shadow Nuke isn't unstoppable. All I'm saying is that if KS is your problem, Taunt shits on it. You might not even need Prankster anyway with Aegi's shitty speed.

2. Off base it may be, but it still holds a link to the case. Gliscor may have more weaknesses, but it's using SubToxic with Poison Heal recovery. You need either really fast or priority Ice to nail that sucker down on a substitute setup turn or else you're screwed. This is like how you have to pack EQ for Aegi, yet we got around Gliscor even in the noob tier. What's to say we can't do the same here? On a side note, Gliscor also has access to some moves that for anything Gliscor may fall behind with in stats, it makes up for in actual base power behind moves. EQ or Stone edge hit pretty hard and all have good use in the meta. Aegi depends on that 150 base because it's moves have only mediocre base power. If it were getting all that offense and EQ? Yeah, I'd not want that either, but as of now Aegi needs it's base offenses to even compete. In fact, some others covered Gliscor pretty well above, though AI see you refuted them. But if we're talking SubToxic Aegi counters, Excadrill works well too. Can't be poisoned, and would force Aegi to run a non STAB move to cover it

I don't know about you, but all my Aegi tends to do is bag a single Pokémon, and then the rest of the match plays out and the result would have been the same regardless. That may just be the level I'm at, sure, but Aegi is no sweeper win button. Shadow ball may be powerful, sure, but who says a slow mon can't tank it and retaliate with some SE to bend Blade forme into a hunk of metal? Or you can use Taunt. There's a legion of possibilities that don't require much extra team building thought. But I have to say that if Aegi bagging one of your team members is letting something stomp all over you, you may want to rethink your team. Pokémon that support each other are nice, but when you make them into a overly symbiotic Jenga tower, there's something wrong. If you're facing equally skilled opponents, some bricks are going to come out. If that makes your whole team fall, consider revising. Pokémon that support but do not depend on one another are vital to a winning team.

3. The meta wasn't starring Aegi for nine months, that's for damn sure. When I talk about the meta settling, that includes in the wake of a ban. Did the Deoxys bans pass you by, or are you just trying to twist my words? Sure, Segi had some presence in the pre Deo ban meta, but it's not the same. Nine months? I'm sorry, but NO. Sure, Aegi can always pull its weight, but isn't that practically the definition of an OU Pokémon in the first place? I'm surprised that this is reserved for upper tier OU. If you ask me, pulling their own weight should be a requirement for even D rank OU mon. I mean, if a Pokémon can't pull its weight in OU, then why is it not immediately sinking to UU or lower?

Also, a Greninja packing a Dark Pulse with Expert belt will put a hurting on Aegi shield, almost scoring an OHKO, whilst becoming Dark Type and resisting ShadowBallNuke.

252+ SpA Expert Belt Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 209-247 (64.5 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(209, 211, 216, 216, 218, 223, 223, 226, 230, 230, 233, 238, 238, 240, 245, 247)


252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 105-125 (36.8 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(105, 107, 108, 109, 111, 112, 113, 114, 116, 117, 118, 120, 120, 122, 123, 125)

And god forbid you catch that poor Aegi in blade forme, OHKO guaranteed, numerical output in the upper 400s at minimum with HP investment. Sure, it's unlikely, but if your opponent leaves themselves vulnerable...

Since Greninja is unloading Dark type pain whilst not taking much in return whilst being a glass cannon, Aegi either switches or dies.


4. If I'm not incorrect about all these harmless aspects of Aegi, what makes them more harmful in a single package? Having used Aegi myself, I know it's strengths and shortcomings, and they balance out pretty evenly. Aegi has never been a win button, even in the lower ladder, and it never will be. Sure, Aegi can bag a crucial kill, but that's very situational as once Aegi's out on the field, it has very few places to be switching in and out if it wants that crucial kill so badly.

More last words:
I love how you skated around a pretty important point entirely:
Tough to beat =/= Broken or OP
Now, I'm not saying you have to come up with some refutation for every point, that'd be ridiculous. I merely ask you acknowledge them.

Not only that, please stop dictating what my team is, it gives me an impression that the upper ladder has OU: The Team again, and in that case I don't wish to associate.

A normal flying type on aegislash? The only one i can think of that people use is staraptor. So you switch in staraptor on aegislash theres two ways it can go
"Good job you predicted the shadow move! Get ready to be 2HKO'd with its sacred sword. And you realize the optimal attacks for staraptor would be Brave bird, Double Edge, and Close combat? What the fuck are you gonna do to aegislash with that? Brave bird it? its gonna resist you. So many people argue you can switch in stuff on aegislash, but what now? Good luck dealing with its sacred sword, cause your brave bird is either gonna get shat on with kings shield, then shat on with sacred swords?"

"Your opponent used swords dance on your switch, either knowing your pokemon cant do shit to it or knowing your switch to staraptor is incoming, while still knowing staraptor cant do shit" Ok so you have staraptor in what do you do? Brave bird? Let me just say sacred sword 2HKOS staraptor with no boosts, and brave bird doesnt even kill a blade form aegislash with full hp. But No, your opponent either kings shielded rendering you useless and now hes swords dancing again, or went right for another swords dance to shit on you again. Either way, staraptors not going to be happy to take a +2 sacred sword and neither are all your other things. Ghost type? Shadow sneak/Ball. Your flying normal suggestion isnt going to do shit.

Your greninja point has a huge hole in it too. So you used dark pulse on aegislash, it lives. WHOAASFASFASFDIHA GOD FORBID YOUR OPPONENT HAS THE POWERS OF... *gasp* PREDICTIONS?! WHAT?!?! Your opponent predicted your greninjas dark pulse? HOW IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLLEEE?!?! WHO IN THE RIGHT MIND WOULD GO FOR SHADOW BALL ON A GRENINJA?! If the aegislash has weakness policy, you just gave it the boost and it went straight for the sacred sword EAASSYY OHKOing your greninja?!? Seriously dude, greninjas not even close to being a counter. Sure it gets it low, but you just sacked a sweeper just to do damage to one pokemon. Who will live to see another turn probably ealing shitloads of damage on your other stuff. "but the aegislash doesnt have sacred sword, its a special one. How could you know for sure? And ok yeah, aegislash switches out, but do you really win that one? You just made it switch out.

"Aegislash has never been a win button" AHAHAHAHAHA. I've seen countless aegislash sweeps, and even one when it was their last pokemon left. If the opponent didnt invest an entire pokemon just to counter aegislash, its over.

 

[Jarrod]

Lets start this off by just saying, Aegislash should definitely be going to ubers. It’s stats are already crazy and i still see it being used in ubers and it does fine in it, hell, it does well in it.


Pseudo 720 BST:

60/150/150/150/150/60.. Do I need to say any more? With one move, it changes forms. Oh and that move has priority. And it’s not a waste of a move… if you touch that fucking shield with your physical attackers, your attack is halved. That’s like being burnt. :/ But it’s worse because they are running some sub-toxic set on your ass causing you to lose more damage every turn.


Aegislash can guarantee a win most of the time.

We’ve all faced one in battle, but pretty much the key to using aegislash, is get rid of all the things that can touch it, and gg. This thing resists so much shit, that most of the time if your earthquakers gone, “OH BUT YOU HAVE TO PLAY IT WELL AND PRESERVE YOUR EARTHQUAKER FOR AEGISLASH” you say, I mean yeah, you have a point, but sometimes your earthquaker just dies and its gg. Sure knock off can kill an aegislash, but you just kings shield and then theyre fucked, send in next pokemon, repeat. I mean aegislash is usually

-Sacked and does a fuckload of damage with its broken shadow ball


-Maybe He’ll predict me to kings shield, set up, and ill hit it with my BROKEN SHADOW BALL

- Well obviously an attacks incoming, lemme just kings shield and i’m good.

- Wow! I know their entire moveset and none of it does shit to aegislash! It happens i run a physical one so lemme just go in there and swords dance until they decide to switch and by then I’ve already killed them with a +4 boosted attack!


“Counters”

One big reason for not banning this thing is a “counter to it.” Okay, first of all you need to waste a whole slot just to kill one pokemon that may or may not be on the opponents team. Then there’s this scenario. You’re ready with mandibuzz, you use foul play! Oh.. it’s a fucking shield with a weakness policy now.. shit, now it’s swords dancing. It iron heads you and youre nearly dead “Wow! I lived, now i can foul play it again and win! Nope its in shield form now” “Well whatever it dies next turn.” Nope, physical aegislash will revenge kill you with a shadow sneak. Then next time you try out a Bisharp just to say if it’ll work this time. You think, “Yay! Knock off is gonna do so much damage!” The fucking King’s Shield ruins your ass and then he comes at you with a sacred sword and EASY OHKO’s.

I hear what you’re saying now. “BUTT WUT IF I PRODICKT ALL THE STUF AND DO SOPER WEL.” You still wasted 1-slot just to counter one pokemon. The rest of the 5-5 battles still going on. Oh wait nvm. It’s 5-4, you had to sack something to switch out safely to your “counter.” Ok, now your counter is in the field because its one of the like, 3 pokemon that counter aegislash. Ok, now the aegislash switches out to something that can counter the counter. Counter’s dead? well tough luck good luck getting through aegislash.


The New Meta Without It.

With Aegislash gone, so many new pokemon can shine, such as

-toxicroak, while i admit isn’t used much, will have a chance to come out of the cave its been living in, BECAUSE AEGISLASH IS IMMUNE TO BOTH ITS STAB ATTACKS.


-Latios and Latias
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 254-302 (84.1 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO “OH but thats not probably not gonna kill it! You have a big chance to survive! ...What are you gonna do? Surf it? Thats the only thing latias and latios can do… And don't say shadow ball, because nobody runs that on them. Oh and thats latias, the bulkier one. Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you, Latios’s chance of surviving. 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 294-348 (97.3 - 115.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO. Not very high, but lets say you got off an attack and lived! Nah, shadow sneak takes you out FOR SURE the next turn so your latios and doin shit.
-Mega Gardevoir
No, you don’t even have to run a physical set to kill this, This thing doesn't stand a chance. Ok lets say youre a special aegislash. shadow ball (you know youre going second), take the incoming shadow ball 252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 146-174 (45 - 53.7%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO. YUS! I GOT IT TO LOW NOW I CAN KILL IT NEXT TURRNNN… Annnnd the weakness policy hits in. its at x2 special attack and attack. needless to say your shadow ball will be the victor. +2 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 492-582 (176.9 - 209.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO Thats a dead mega gardevoir and a +2 aegislash. Not good for your side of the battle. Also if you dont run weakness policy on it, shadow ball + shadow sneak still does the trick to killing mega gardevoir.

-Alakazam
You attack, dont kill, Aegislash uses Shadow ball you’re down to your sash. Shadow sneak youre dead.


-Every damn psychic type. It’s crazy how 1 pokemon can make a bunch of them useless. Absolutely useless.

All the Fucking Movesets

There are three sets I know off the top of my head.

1. Walling Stalling Douchebag|Substitute-Toxic-King’s Shield+A move of your choice.

2. The Special Attacker|Flash Cannon-Shadow Ball-King’s Shield+Substitute

3. The Physical Attacker|Sacred Sword-Shadow Sneak-King’s Shield-Swords Dance

Now you may think “BUT 3 SETSES IS NOOOT AA LOT OF SETSES.” And do you know what I’d say? “There’s like ten sets, I just said the ones I knew off of the top of my head.”

https://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/aegislash

Take a quick look at that page. 9 recommended sets.9 FUCKING SETS. What happens if your “counter” doesn’t work? You’re fucked due to the 720 BST and the crazy movepool. And priority doesn’t kill this thing. It has shadow sneak and zip zap zop’s it’s ass behind it’s shield. You can’t even stall this thing.. Toxic? NOPE! Sure, Will-O-Wisp works, but it’s slow and kind of pointless if it’s a special attacker (which it usually is)


It’s Future in Ubers

This thing could counter Mewtwo-X, fighting types are screwed. Same goes for Mewtwo-Y Psystrike doesn’t even kill Aegislash-Blade. Sub-Toxic Aegislash can out-stall the god of stalling, Lugia. What’s Aeroblast gonna do to Aegislash? Flash Cannon and Iron Head can do some serious damage to Xerneas.

Also, shadow ball doesn’t kill aegislash shield from a mega mewtwo y, if you used swords dance that turn, shadow sneak is going to OHKO the mewtwo no question.


Conclusion

The people who are saying that this shouldn’t be banned is because they use it and it works, their little toy that guarantees victory every fucking time is going to be gone.. If you don’t use it and you don’t want it banned is because your counter to it works 75% of the time. The meta will flourish with aegislash gone. C’mon people. Do the right thing.

You're entitled to your argument, but I must warn that there are many on the anti-ban side that don't use Aegislash and don't want to. Conversely, there are those on the anti-ban side who nonetheless want Aegislash gone (it's a very weird position to have, but I have it). I don't believe Aegisash needs a ban in the same way as all the previous suspects and OU castaways - in that way I am anti-ban. However, I like the prospect of an Aegislash-less meta because I currently run Rain HO with Starmie as a key player (who doesn't like Aegislash). I am simply writing this to point out that people who are anti-ban don't take that position purely because they don't want their toy to disappear - I actually want it gone despite being anti-ban.

Oh and for the record, Aegislash does not "guarantee a win most of the time". I mentioned before you are entitled to your argument, but this is just short-sighted and wrong. Even pro-banners would agree with that. Aegislash is not being suspected because it is a "win button"; there are many other factors contributing to Aegislash's presence in the metagame that you clearly don't understand. The banning of Aegislash can be justified, but not because it is an unstoppable juggernaut.

 

[Immortal]

The people who are saying that this shouldn’t be banned is because they use it and it works, their little toy that guarantees victory every fucking time is going to be gone.. If you don’t use it and you don’t want it banned is because your counter to it works 75% of the time. The meta will flourish with aegislash gone. C’mon people. Do the right thing.

First off Aegislash is a solid pokemon that almost always pulls its weight. it is a good pivot that does its job well. It doesn't run 9 different sets. Of course the lati twins can't do much to it. Plenty of pokemon have counters and they have way more than most. They have never been able to do much to t tar either, nobody is trying to ban him. The reason they are so easily stopped is that psychic is just an awful defense typing and has been since long before aegislash. Same with mega gard and toxicroak... of course it beats the stuff it has severe type advantages over and those two aren't even that good. This would be like trying to ban hippowdon for doing well against electric types, terrible arguement. Also aegislash does not guarantee victory every time, stop posting ridiculous exaggerations, they don't help your cause at all. Also for the 100th time how well it does or would do in ubers is completely irrelevant. Sorry but your entire post is a joke. There is a chance aegislash is broken but please stop acting like it is arceus.

Oh and with what you said about entire teams being swept by aegislash... it's SD set is so underwhelming because it relies on weak ass shadow sneak because of its awful speed. If somebody is getting their entire team swept by it on a consistant basis then they are a terrible battler and team builder. Your post is such blatant trolling but I guess I'm replying out of boredom.

 

[M36Lucas]

My 2 cents on an Aegislash ban:

Aegi is a versatile Pokemon with stats that are frankly amazing. It has many sets.

HOWEVER, banning it is just ridiculous in my opinion. A lot of the meta at least checks it.
(Mandibuzz, Bisharp, etc.)

Aegi in Ubers would be under-powered. Darkrai completely ruins Aegi unless it misses the Dark Void and the Aegi user packs a Sacred Sword.
(Darkrai dv's aegi, and fires off as many dark pulses as possible before he wakes.(or nasty plot, then dark pulse if you feel lucky)).
Blaziken can do some gimmicks too but has to worry about King's Shield.

Let's look at some calcs, shall we?:
252 Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 230-272 (70.9 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery -- decent damage. that's also not even an adamant Mamo.

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 307-367 (94.7 - 113.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO -- unboosted. if it manages an sd, it's guaranteed to KO(obviously).

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 260-308 (80.2 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery -- it has to watch a sacred sword but still.

You get the point. Aegi can be checked by many. Maybe not "fully countered" but does every pokemon that's hard to take down have to be banned? no.

Overall, I say no to banning aegi. if I make requirements, I'll vote no to banning him.

There are a lot of things I have to say about this. You said that a lot of the meta checks it. Name a few more pokemon besides Mandibuzz, Excadrill and Bisharp that check this thing. Well, actually Bisharp and Excadrill don't really check it. Aegislash has this one move.. It's called Sacred Sword. OHKO's excadrill, OHKO's bisharp. And it feels like everybody forgot, but the person has other pokemon besides Aegislash that can kill Bisharp, Excadrill and Mandibuzz. Once Mandibuzz is gone Aegislash is ready to go... Sacred Sword can EASY kill Mamo, Exca, and Bisharp. These things are excuses for checks.. not counters.

Oh and don't worry, I didn't forget about your first point. Aegislash will do pretty well in Ubers. Some people already use it in Ubers. 1. Mega Mewtwo-X and Mega Mewtwo-Y are absolutely screwed due to Aegislash. 2. What can Lugia do to this? Oh boy Toxic is so intimidating. 3. Is that Xerneas trying to go for Geomancy? Never fear! Iron Head + Shadow Sneak is here!
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 336-396 (73.6 - 86.8%)
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 84-100 (18.4 - 21.9%)
It won't be Kyogre, but it will do alright

 

[Maximanz]

First off Aegislash is a solid pokemon that almost always pulls its weight. it is a good pivot that does its job well. It doesn't run 9 different sets. Of course the lati twins can't do much to it. Plenty of pokemon have counters and they have way more than most. They have never been able to do much to t tar either, nobody is trying to ban him. The reason they are so easily stopped is that psychic is just an awful defense typing and has been since long before aegislash. Same with mega gard and toxicroak... of course it beats the stuff it has severe type advantages over and those two aren't even that good. This would be like trying to ban hippowdon for doing well against electric types, terrible arguement. Also aegislash does not guarantee victory every time, stop posting ridiculous exaggerations, they don't help your cause at all. Also for the 100th time how well it does or would do in ubers is completely irrelevant. Sorry but your entire post is a joke. There is a chance aegislash is broken but please stop acting like it is arceus.

Part of your post proved my point, when you said psychic types were never defensive and they cant take hits from it. and aegislash can survive a ttars equake and go for the sacred sword of which its x4 weak to and youre dead. And yes, psychic is not a defensive type, which is why aegislash can come in and render most of them useless. And my entire point is that it can do well against many things. Your entire hippowdon statement isnt even a valid argument because the whole point here was to show what pokemon cant be used because this one pokemon wrecks so many of them.

 

[Mr. Goodra]

Aegislash leaving will not resolve any stale meta issues, because it is a fault of players being lazy with their team building. You don't HAVE to run Aegislash, and you're not necessarily at a disadvantage if you don't, hence why he isn't on a lot of the top OU laddered teams. People are already planning to abuse the hell out of the likes of Mega Medicham when Aegislash goes, and it just proves people go for whatever they see as easy to spam. It's nothing to do with using more mons, as Mega Medicham is completely viable now, it just has to have teammates that respond to Aegislash well, of which many have already been mentioned that also compliment it.

I don't understand why Aegislash stops Pokemon being viable because it counters them. Hasn't it always been the case that you have to take down the counters of a mon before something can sweep? Aegislash is getting special treatment as some invincible demi god when it just takes some decent plays and a couple of double switches.

I voted to save Aegislash, mainly because I think its cons are being underplayed and the pro-ban side are mainly against it because they don't like dealing with it, and want to be able to use some mons that they ultimately won't do, because Aegislash isn't the actual problem stopping them from being top tier. People are complaining about lazy team building, yet are avoiding using something because one popular mon counters it. I can't really get my head around it when you're supposed to pack responses to what your sweep gets halted by. Like I said at the start, I firmly believe the current meta is again the fault of players and Aegislash is just the scapegoat for a lack of successful creativity.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be valid concerns about Aegislash nor am I saying it's bad. It's amazing, punches holes fairly well, and capitalises on opportunities easy. But any long time user will know a surprising amount of stuff scares it, and that it gives away as much momentum as it creates if you misplay.

 

[Ender Wiggin]

Then next time you try out a Bisharp just to say if it’ll work this time. You think, “Yay! Knock off is gonna do so much damage!” The fucking King’s Shield ruins your ass and then he comes at you with a sacred sword and EASY OHKO’s.

Do tell how does king's shield ruin bisharp?

 

[Desokoro]

There are a lot of things I have to say about this. You said that a lot of the meta checks it. Name a few more pokemon besides Mandibuzz, Excadrill and Bisharp that check this thing. Well, actually Bisharp and Excadrill don't really check it. Aegislash has this one move.. It's called Sacred Sword. OHKO's excadrill, OHKO's bisharp. And it feels like everybody forgot, but the person has other pokemon besides Aegislash that can kill Bisharp, Excadrill and Mandibuzz. Once Mandibuzz is gone Aegislash is ready to go... Sacred Sword can EASY kill Mamo, Exca, and Bisharp. These things are excuses for checks.. not counters.

Oh and don't worry, I didn't forget about your first point. Aegislash will do pretty well in Ubers. Some people already use it in Ubers. 1. Mega Mewtwo-X and Mega Mewtwo-Y are absolutely screwed due to Aegislash. 2. What can Lugia do to this? Oh boy Toxic is so intimidating. 3. Is that Xerneas trying to go for Geomancy? Never fear! Iron Head + Shadow Sneak is here!
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 336-396 (73.6 - 86.8%)
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 84-100 (18.4 - 21.9%)
It won't be Kyogre, but it will do alright

you aren't getting the idea, which I stated more clearly in later posts. CHIP DAMAGE. Sacking 1 pokemon truly doesn't matter unless it was the only poke on your team to deal with a certain threat on your opponent's side. Most people want Aegi banned because they don't want to battle it because it's good. That is pathetic. I'm not saying Aegi is bad but it isn't overpowered. And I know about Sacred Sword, it does a lot to my checks. However, maybe that said "set" doesn't run Sacred Sword. Then what? Are you planning to try and use King's Shield to screw with a player's head after that? nope, a smart player wouldn't fall for it and would probs do something else(SD), then kill you. And about Mandi being screwed over by sub-tox sets, maybe you can bring a cleric w/ heal bell to help that. and Heal Bell is mainly useful unless you're bringing a Guts Orbed Poke like Swellow. Gliscor is another great thing to rid of Aegislash. It's sub-toxic is better than aegi's and gliscor carries the eq. and no, your little sacred sword won't be helping you here. Heatran can be useful, Lava Plume for the chance of burn or Fire Blast for Raw Power. and it has Earth Power. Only Sacred Sword can smack him hard from Aegislash.(4 Atk burned Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 88-104 (22.7 - 26.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery) that's the burned calc from the "Usage" set on the calc. There's more than this as well but I don't think it's necessary to list more and more checks. You should get the point.

 

[Rosen]

you aren't getting the idea, which I stated more clearly in later posts. CHIP DAMAGE. Sacking 1 pokemon truly doesn't matter unless it was the only poke on your team to deal with a certain threat on your opponent's side. Most people want Aegi banned because they don't want to battle it because it's good. That is pathetic. I'm not saying Aegi is bad but it isn't overpowered. And I know about Sacred Sword, it does a lot to my checks. However, maybe that said "set" doesn't run Sacred Sword. Then what? Are you planning to try and use King's Shield to screw with a player's head after that? nope, a smart player wouldn't fall for it and would probs do something else(SD), then kill you. And about Mandi being screwed over by sub-tox sets, maybe you can bring a cleric w/ heal bell to help that. and Heal Bell is mainly useful unless you're bringing a Guts Orbed Poke like Swellow. Gliscor is another great thing to rid of Aegislash. It's sub-toxic is better than aegi's and gliscor carries the eq. and no, your little sacred sword won't be helping you here. Heatran can be useful, Lava Plume for the chance of burn or Fire Blast for Raw Power. and it has Earth Power. Only Sacred Sword can smack him hard from Aegislash.(4 Atk burned Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 88-104 (22.7 - 26.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery) that's the burned calc from the "Usage" set on the calc. There's more than this as well but I don't think it's necessary to list more and more checks. You should get the point.

The serious arguments aren't that it's overpowered, they're that it's overcentralizing. You have to have answers to all sets, which yeah you need answers to Mega Pinsir and Zard X and Talonflame on every team too but here's the thing, all three of them combined have less viable sets than Aegislash does by its lonesome. Also no other single poke in the meta has rendered so many other pokemon next to useless simply by existing. The thing isn't an unstoppable force like Mega Gengar or Mega Luke, but it's so stupidly unhealthy for the OU meta as a whole that entire playstyles suffer from it. And yeah shit like Mega Gard and Cham spam will skyrocket, but again, Cham has like one good set and Gard's defense is so low it's one of the easiest things to revenge kill cuz it does to any reasonably powered neutral physical hit. Aegis is fucken cancer

 

[NeLLY979]

Part of your post proved my point, when you said psychic types were never defensive and they cant take hits from it. and aegislash can survive a ttars equake and go for the sacred sword of which its x4 weak to and youre dead. And yes, psychic is not a defensive type, which is why aegislash can come in and render most of them useless. And my entire point is that it can do well against many things. Your entire hippowdon statement isnt even a valid argument because the whole point here was to show what pokemon cant be used because this one pokemon wrecks so many of them.

"It can do well against many things" is, quite frankly, a stupid argument to make.

On that basis shouldn't we ban all of the A and S rank viability pokémon? And then all the next most viable pokémon in their absence until OU is an eternall cycle of Magikarp vs. Sunkern?

 

[9 Tales of Ninetales]

Most people want Aegi banned because they don't want to battle it because it's good. That is pathetic. I'm not saying Aegi is bad but it isn't overpowered.

You're opinion to whether or not Aegislash is overpowered is totally valid. In fact many people who lean pro-ban share the opinion that Aegislash is not blatantly more powerful than other Pokemon. Not on the same level as pretty much anything else banned so far in X and Y.
However the opinion that Aegislash does not belong in OU is shared by numerous very skilled community members, (some are against it too). But these are people who put a lot of time and thought into Pokemon battling and who aren't lacking for ability to beat Pokemon that aren't overpowered. Yet they still have valid (this gets argued a lot) reasons why Aegislash is negatively impacting the OU tier, and why it has just one good trait too many for the metagame.
I guess what I'm saying is you seem to be writing up a lot of posts and, speaking as a pro-ban advocate, I would highly recommend you take some of that writing time to go back through this thread to acquaint yourself a little better with the reason people think a Aegislash ban is necessary. You don't need to read all 65 pages (good god) but maybe get a stronger grasp on why there's a push for an Aegislash ban before you call us pathetic. Because it's not based on "not wanting to battle a good monster" Hell, the OU teiring council are some of the most respected players in the community. They wouldn't have put Aegislash up for a suspect test if they thought the only grounds for banning it were "not wanting to put up with it"
Anyway I hope you do this because when (or I guess if) Aegislash gets banned it would be cool if you understood why and didn't grow a bunch of negative opinions about smogon's tiering decisions.

 

[Desokoro]

You're opinion to whether or not Aegislash is overpowered is totally valid. In fact many people who lean pro-ban share the opinion that Aegislash is not blatantly more powerful that other Pokemon. Not on the same level as pretty much anything else banned so far in X and Y.
However the opinion that Aegislash does not belong in OU is shared by numerous very skilled community members, (some are against it too). But these are people who put a lot of time and thought into Pokemon battling and who aren't lacking for ability to beat Pokemon that aren't overpowered. Yet they still have valid (this gets argued a lot) reasons why Aegislash is negatively impacting the OU tier, and why it has just one good trait too many for the metagame.
I guess what I'm saying is you seem to be writing up a lot of posts and, speaking as a pro-ban advocate, I would highly recommend you take some of that writing time to go back through this thread to acquaint yourself a little better with the reason people think a Aegislash ban is necessary. You don't need to read all 65 pages (good god) but maybe get a stronger grasp on why there's a push for an Aegislash ban before you call us pathetic. Because it's not based on "not wanting to battle a good monster" Hell, the OU teiring council are some of the most respected players in the community. They wouldn't have put Aegislash up for a suspect test if they thought the only grounds for banning it were "not wanting to put up with it"
Anyway I hope you do this because when (or I guess if) Aegislash gets banned it would be cool if you understood why and didn't grow a bunch of negative opinions about smogon's tiering decisions.

Wasn't calling any group of people pathetic, I called the action of not wanting to battle a Pokemon because of how good it is pathetic. If it's usable, you have to be ready for it and that's just kind of the way it goes. I read a decent amount, I know a lot of players want it banned because of it's centralization issues but that's Pokemon. You're going to have a poke or 2 that may take a tier and create so much fear or encountering this said Pokemon that you're "forced" to stack checks for it.
HOWEVER, Aegi doesn't force much besides 1 check. Any more are optional. My arguments are for the people that say "Aegi is broken, Ban". It isn't broken, just good enough to make things revolve around it and that's Pokemon for you.

 

[Mr. Goodra]

You're opinion to whether or not Aegislash is overpowered is totally valid. In fact many people who lean pro-ban share the opinion that Aegislash is not blatantly more powerful that other Pokemon. Not on the same level as pretty much anything else banned so far in X and Y.
However the opinion that Aegislash does not belong in OU is shared by numerous very skilled community members, (some are against it too). But these are people who put a lot of time and thought into Pokemon battling and who aren't lacking for ability to beat Pokemon that aren't overpowered. Yet they still have valid (this gets argued a lot) reasons why Aegislash is negatively impacting the OU tier, and why it has just one good trait too many for the metagame.
I guess what I'm saying is you seem to be writing up a lot of posts and, speaking as a pro-ban advocate, I would highly recommend you take some of that writing time to go back through this thread to acquaint yourself a little better with the reason people think a Aegislash ban is necessary. You don't need to read all 65 pages (good god) but maybe get a stronger grasp on why there's a push for an Aegislash ban before you call us pathetic. Because it's not based on "not wanting to battle a good monster" Hell, the OU teiring council are some of the most respected players in the community. They wouldn't have put Aegislash up for a suspect test if they thought the only grounds for banning it were "not wanting to put up with it"
Anyway I hope you do this because when (or I guess if) Aegislash gets banned it would be cool if you understood why and didn't grow a bunch of negative opinions about smogon's tiering decisions.

I have a lot of respect for that post. It's polite, fair, and respectful of opposing views.

However, I don't think anti-ban for one second think that's the true reason Aegislash is being suspected. There are a lot of comments from pro-ban that suggests some of them have that mentality though. A lot of us actually agree with Aegislash being chosen for suspect, because it's bloody good at what it does. It's just that we think the cons it has are enough to prevent it from being overpowered.

It also doesn't help that there's been a fair bit of aggression from some (and only some) pro-ban players that can't come up with a better counter argument than "Aegislash is cancer" when they get frustrated.

This is a good suspect test to have, but I really do believe that the metagame isn't boring right now directly because of Aegislash. It's completely different to say BW2 where rain basically destroyed everything and overpowered its best responses by just spamming strong double STAB moves. Aegislash is a slow mon with flaws that are exploitable, and it takes good play from the user to prevent those flaws being exploited.

 

[Rosen]

I have a lot of respect for that post. It's polite, fair, and respectful of opposing views.

However, I don't think anti-ban for one second think that's the true reason Aegislash is being suspected. There are a lot of comments from pro-ban that suggests some of you have that mentality though. A lot of us actually agree with Aegislash being chosen for suspect, because it's bloody good at what it does. It's just that we think the cons it has are enough to prevent it from being overpowered.

It also doesn't help that there's been a fair bit of aggression from some (and only some) pro-ban side that can't come up with a better argument than "Aegislash is cancer."

This is a good suspect test to have, but I really do believe that the metagame isn't boring right now directly because of Aegislash. It's completely different to say BW2 where rain basically destroyed everything and overpowered its best responses by just spamming strong double STAB moves. Aegislash is a slow mon with flaws that are exploitable, and it takes good play from the user to prevent those flaws being exploited.

1. Aegislash IS cancer
2. If you read my posts, the "Aegislash is cancer" happens to be the last sentence of many sentences giving some pretty rock-solid arguments, so check yo self b4 you shwreck yo self

This aggression you speak of doesn't stem from anti-ban arguments, it stems from being really passionate about wanting Aegislash gone, which imo is in no way a hinderance -- the more strongly people feel about a topic, the more likely we'll get a result (see: BP Chain Nerf thread).

Regarding your opinion on the matter itself, its 'slowness' is one of the reasons it is so damn good -- why do you think people run Brave/Quiet natures with 0 Speed IVs? So you can tank a hit with your 60/150/150 defenses and retaliate with equally high offenses. Speed doesn't even matter when changing from Blade to Shield form because priority in King's Shield means you don't have to predict shit to save your skin. Yeah its got flaws, everything has flaws, XERNEAS and KYOGRE have flaws, and yeah we unleash Kyogre in OU and everyone could start running Specially Defensive Gastrodon, but I think everyone can agree that'd be horribly unhealthy for OU. But even then, it'd be more adaptable because Kyogre has like 2 great sets so at least one could PREPARE for all of them, whereas Aegislash has 9 recommended sets on the smogdex and a plenty more decent sets than even those. Yeah the thing is beatable, yes it had weaknesses, same story for literally every mon out there. But not a single pokemon prior to Aegislash has many so many other pokemon impractical or obsolete, and that's why I'm so strongly in favor of removing it from the scene. More usable mons = healthier meta.

TL;DR: Aegislash is cancer, now go back and read my previous posts so y'all don't try to act like this is the only thing I said.

 

[Sun King]

I've seen a lot of people mentioning the viability of other mons in respect to Aegislash lately. I get that you're trying to point to Aegislash's centralization with this, but to be honest, most of it is wrong. Almost everything is unviable as a result of the new Defog mechanics, the weather nerf, and the power creep. I don't really want to deal with specific mons, as it's only going to further derail the thread, but before you directly point your finger at Aegislash, ask yourself if whatever is "unviable" can handle any of the major metagame threats.

If you would like to argue specifics, please do so via PM because I don't want to derail this thread.

 

[Dread Arceus]

Just something I'd like to point out that has been said a million times, but apparently needs to be repeated. How well something does in Ubers has no bearing on whether it gets banned or not.
Also, if you think an A-ranked mon and one of the best ways to beat Xerneas is "bad in Ubers", you probably know jack-shit about the tier and shouldn't post about it.

 

[Mr. Goodra]

1. Aegislash IS cancer
2. If you read my posts, the "Aegislash is cancer" happens to be the last sentence of many sentences giving some pretty rock-solid arguments, so check yo self b4 you shwreck yo self

This aggression you speak of doesn't stem from anti-ban arguments, it stems from being really passionate about wanting Aegislash gone, which imo is in no way a hinderance -- the more strongly people feel about a topic, the more likely we'll get a result (see: BP Chain Nerf thread).

Regarding your opinion on the matter itself, its 'slowness' is one of the reasons it is so damn good -- why do you think people run Brave/Quiet natures with 0 Speed IVs? So you can tank a hit with your 60/150/150 defenses and retaliate with equally high offenses. Speed doesn't even matter when changing from Blade to Shield form because priority in King's Shield means you don't have to predict shit to save your skin. Yeah its got flaws, everything has flaws, XERNEAS and KYOGRE have flaws, and yeah we unleash Kyogre in OU and everyone could start running Specially Defensive Gastrodon, but I think everyone can agree that'd be horribly unhealthy for OU. But even then, it'd be more adaptable because Kyogre has like 2 great sets so at least one could PREPARE for all of them, whereas Aegislash has 9 recommended sets on the smogdex and a plenty more decent sets than even those. Yeah the thing is beatable, yes it had weaknesses, same story for literally every mon out there. But not a single pokemon prior to Aegislash has many so many other pokemon impractical or obsolete, and that's why I'm so strongly in favor of removing it from the scene. More usable mons = healthier meta.

TL;DR: Aegislash is cancer, now go back and read my previous posts so y'all don't try to act like this is the only thing I said.

1) Your first point doesn't contribute anything so I can't respond to it properly.
2) I wasn't directly referring to you when I brought up the cancer counter argument, and it wasn't a petty attempt to discredit what was admittedly a good post on your behalf. Plenty of people have described Aegislash as cancer before you, and it's getting annoying because it doesn't contribute anything or expand upon previous points, but instead comes across as petty whining.

You can be passionate about something without adding an aggressive tone to your points. I'm passionate about Aegislash staying but I'm not going to rant and use crappy metaphors because I feel it discredits my argument instead of improving it. The baton pass amendment was something many people felt strongly about and it was done intelligently without insulting the playstyle for the most part.

And yes, Aegislash utilises low speed to take a hit in shield form, but that's because it has next to no hope of outspeeding threats with base 60, so instead it runs minimum speed to capitalise on the pros of taking a hit first. The fact it has to take a hit first is what works against it so much though and is the reason it is so easy to wear down. It's successfully making the best out of an ultimately bad situation.

You can't compare Aegislash to Kyogre and Xerneas either. Kyogre has only one adequate OU response in Gastrodon, a pretty bad mon outside of that, whereas Aegislash has a big list of checks, examples of which are littered throughout this thread. The vast majority of Pokemon that check Aegislash also have good use outside of that, meaning you don't have to run anything obscure. This has been covered multiple times already.

Finally, Aegislash isn't stopping anything from being useable. I've explained this two posts ago and I'm not repeating myself as to why that is the case.

 

[9 Tales of Ninetales]

Wasn't calling any group of people pathetic, I called the action of not wanting to battle a Pokemon because of how good it is pathetic. If it's usable, you have to be ready for it and that's just kind of the way it goes. I read a decent amount, I know a lot of players want it banned because of it's centralization issues but that's Pokemon. You're going to have a poke or 2 that may take a tier and create so much fear or encountering this said Pokemon that you're "forced" to stack checks for it.

Hey, cool, as long as you get where we're coming from you don't have to agree, and sorry if you feel I called you out. Maybe just be a little more careful with your wording in the future. If the action of "not wanting to battle a Pokemon because it's good" is pathetic and (as you said)

Most people want Aegi banned because they don't want to battle it because it's good.

then that directly implies that most people who want an Aegislash ban are pathetic. But I guess that isn't what you meant.

I have a lot of respect for that post. It's polite, fair, and respectful of opposing views.

However, I don't think anti-ban for one second think that's the true reason Aegislash is being suspected. There are a lot of comments from pro-ban that suggests some of them have that mentality though.

Thanks. And just so you know that response and recommendation was directed specifically at Desokoro. I was not trying to make any sort of all encompassing accusations towards the anti-ban crowd, or you, about why you think the suspect test is going on. Also I'm sure there are plenty of pro-banners who haven't put a lot of thought into the whole thing and simply just don't want to deal a good Pokemon. So I'm not trying to speak for all pro-ban guys as well. I just wanted to break up the extreme generalization that "most of us are pathetic" and that all we want is to not deal with something we think isn't broken.