CAP 19 CAP 19 - Part 1 - Closed Concept Assessment

[Agile Turtle]

Okay so apparently, some people still don't understand the concept.

People seem to think the concept means we have to make a pokemon that faints so we can give another pokemon a free set up turn. That is wrong. That is completely wrong.

We do not want CAP to faint.
We do not want to sac the CAP.
We do want the opponent to want CAP dead.
We do want the opponent to be afraid to kill CAP.

The concept is not to have CAP faint.
The concept is to make the opponent not want to make CAP faint.
What's really strange is that people seem to want CAP to faint.
You know what? The concept is more about keeping CAP alive then having CAP faint.
We do not want CAP to die, but if it happens we have our backup pokemon to benefit.

I repeat: the concept is not about having CAP faint for the backup mon to take advantage, it's about having a threatening backup mon to keep the opponent from killing CAP.

We want the opponent to want to KO cap. Yes, that sounds like it is against the concept, but if you actually understood the concept then you'd know that it isn't. Here's the basic idea: Our CAP is important to us and our team. The opponent is going to want it gone, however we want it to stay alive. This is where our backup mon comes in. We want our backup mon to be threatening. A pokemon that threatens to take advantage of CAPs death. Yes, we want to tailor the CAP to allow for the best case scenario for the back-up mon with CAP's death. However we do not want to sac CAP for our backup mon. We only want to tailor the CAP to allow this scenario because it will make the opponent afraid to kill CAP. We want to keep CAP alive.

I had someone on IRC tell me that if we don't choose a setup sweeper that needs the free turn CAP's death gives, then it makes CAP useless. Their statement completely ignored the concept and it was obvious they did not understand the concept. They thought that we wanted CAP to die. We are not building the CAP around our back-up mon to make our backup mon more viable. We want to build around our back-up mon to make our bacup mon more threatening. Mons that need the setup turn CAP's death would give them probably aren't all that threatening to begin with, therefore the opponent will have less of a problem killing CAP. Mons that can already get a free turn could essentially get two free turns, making them a lot more threatening. That's what we want.

 

[Cretacerus]

Yes, I fully agree that CAP19 must be useful while alive, and support its team actively as long as it can. Being complete deadweight while alive is neither desirable nor a requirement for this concept

But an important aspect for this concept is, that CAP19 has to be equally useful, or even more so, when and after it faints, putting the opponent into the aforementioned lose-lose situation, and us into a win-win: we benefit from CAP19 being alive, and we also benefit from it being knocked out. We want either, while the opponent wants none of these options, but has to ultimately choose one.

People have been focusing a lot on the benefits of the second option (being knocked out), as this is what will separate CAP19 from other Pokémon, and is arguably the most critical and interesting aspect of this concept. The benefits of the first option (staying alive) are rather well explored and simple to implement, and I guess that's the reason they have not seen a lot of discussion yet, but you are right that we should not forget about them.

Specifically about the statement you mentioned: CAP19 being useless when not being able to pull of a crucial sacrifice. Sure, Pokémon can utilize the free turn without being reliant on it, but those Pokémon are in my opinion not taking full advantage of CAP19's fainting. They risk making CAP19's role on the team obsolete, if they are not reliant on the free set up turn, and would equally appreciate traditional, safer forms of support.

 

[Ununhexium]

Yes, I fully agree that CAP19 must be useful while alive, and support its team actively as long as it can. Being complete deadweight while alive is neither desirable nor a requirement for this concept

But a important aspect for this concept is, that CAP19 has to be equally useful, or even more so, when and after it faints, putting the opponent into the aforementioned lose-lose situation, and us into a win-win: we benefit from CAP19 being alive, and we also benefit from it being knocked out. We want either, while the opponent wants none of these options, but has to ultimately choose one.

People have been focusing a lot on the benefits of the second option (being knocked out), as this is what will separate CAP19 from other Pokémon, and is arguably the most critical and interesting aspect of this concept. The benefits of the first option (staying alive) are rather well explored and simple to implement, and I guess that's the reason it has not seen a lot of discussion yet, but you are right that we should not forget about it.

Specifically about the statement you mentioned: CAP19 being useless when not being able to pull of a crucial sacrifice. Sure, Pokémon can use the free turn without being reliant on it, but those Pokémon are in my opinion not taking full advantage of CAP19's fainting. They risk making CAP19's role on the team obsolete, if they are not reliant on the free set up turn, and would equally appreciate traditional, safer forms of support.

I think you're missing the point. The concept was to dissuade the opponent by fainting you. This, we decided, would be caused by having a "backup Pokemon" that could pressure the opponent so much that they would not want to KO CAP from fear the "backup Pokemon" could come in on the free switch granter by fainting and revenge KO, countersweep, etc. Everybody here needs to remember that fainting is bad. Like Pwnemon said, the CAP does not need to be defined by fainting, but the free switch granted by fainting (aka the "lose lose") is merely a weapon in its arsenal. No Pokemon can be more useful after it faints than when it is alive. It just doesn't work like that. Of course, it can support the team by using a fainting move (such as Grudge, Destiny Bond, Healing Wish, and Memento) but that doesn't necessarily mean it's better off fainted. It means that through fainting it can support its team (if that makes sense).

On another note, Cursed Body is cool because it sort of dissuades the opponent from attacking it outright due to the chance of its move being disabled.

 

[Agile Turtle]

Yes, I fully agree that CAP19 must be useful while alive, and support its team actively as long as it can. Being complete deadweight while alive is neither desirable nor a requirement for this concept

But an important aspect for this concept is, that CAP19 has to be equally useful, or even more so, when and after it faints, putting the opponent into the aforementioned lose-lose situation, and us into a win-win: we benefit from CAP19 being alive, and we also benefit from it being knocked out. We want either, while the opponent wants none of these options, but has to ultimately choose one.

People have been focusing a lot on the benefits of the second option (being knocked out), as this is what will separate CAP19 from other Pokémon, and is arguably the most critical and interesting aspect of this concept. The benefits of the first option (staying alive) are rather well explored and simple to implement, and I guess that's the reason they have not seen a lot of discussion yet, but you are right that we should not forget about them.

Specifically about the statement you mentioned: CAP19 being useless when not being able to pull of a crucial sacrifice. Sure, Pokémon can utilize the free turn without being reliant on it, but those Pokémon are in my opinion not taking full advantage of CAP19's fainting. They risk making CAP19's role on the team obsolete, if they are not reliant on the free set up turn, and would equally appreciate traditional, safer forms of support.

This post really pisses me off. You completely ignored the entire point i was trying to get across in my post.

The concept is not about having CAP faint. We do not want to sac CAP.

You say "CAP19 being useless when not being able to pull of a crucial sacrifice."
The point of CAP is not for our backup mon to sweep. We want our backup mon to be threatening. Our goal is not to make x pokemon a good sweeper. You clearly do not understand the concept or my post.

Let me put this into perspective for you:
We have shit mons that need the free set up turn like lucario. Sure it is threatening when it has set up, but lucario isn't as threatening as other mons, and honestly if lucario is all the opponent has to answer to if they kill CAP, then they aren't going to have much of a problem doing so. In this situation we would have failed the concept because the opponent has no problem killing CAP.
We have good mons that can already provide a free turn for themselves like dragonite. Dragonite has multiscale which pretty much grants it a free turn. We give it a free turn on a mon it can set up on through CAPs death, and it essentially has two. That's potentially two dragon dances, and that's a lot more threatening.

Sure dragonite can already provide itself with a free turn, but that does not make CAP useless. The role of CAP on our team is not to die. We don't even want it to die, but in the situation where it has, we still have our backup.

 

[FMD]

We have good mons that can already provide a free turn for themselves like dragonite. Dragonite has multiscale which pretty much grants it a free turn. We give it a free turn on a mon it can set up on through CAPs death, and it essentially has two. That's potentially two dragon dances, and that's a lot more threatening.

Sure dragonite can already provide itself with a free turn, but that does not make CAP useless. The role of CAP on our team is not to die. We don't even want it to die, but in the situation where it has, we still have our backup.

If you want to prove yourself right, it would help if you could give an example other than the one I gave you minutes beforehand. Like I said already, almost no other Pokemon will get a second free turn out of this. Most sweepers get their one existing turn of set up by coming in to a favorable situation and forcing out the opponent. Since we were planning on having the partner Pokemon do this already, there would be no second turn of set up provided magically by the CAP. There is an inherent flaw in your argument and you refuse to address it.

 

[ginganinja]

RE Partners, I would rather us pick a pokemon that's particularly strong (ie lets not go down the Lucario route like we did last CAP), and can bypass Unaware users.

The concept is to make the opponent not want to make CAP faint.

Ergo, if I have an Unaware mon in the wings, or a hard counter specifically designed to handle a particularly commonly seen sweeper, then there is no downside to me killing said CAP, because CAPs "partner" (using the term in the loosest possible sense) contains zero threat so long as I have its counter in the wings. So, in reiteration, there is little point in us picking a single (or group), or pokemon to work with this CAP, if common hard counters to these pokemon already easily exist, because as long as I have X hard countered, then I have no issues whatsoever killing CAP, thus, the Concept is not achieved. Specifically, I would want to look at really good set up sweeper, that perhaps have a slightly rarer set that would encourage less specific preparation thus decreasing the chances your opponent already has existing measures in place on his or her team to handle it, thus increasing the likelihood that your opponent will give significant pause before killing our CAP, least it provide that free momentum for our partner(s).

 

[Bughouse]

RE Partners, I would rather us pick a pokemon that's particularly strong (ie lets not go down the Lucario route like we did last CAP), and can bypass Unaware users.


Ergo, if I have an Unaware mon in the wings, or a hard counter specifically designed to handle a particularly commonly seen sweeper, then there is no downside to me killing said CAP, because CAPs "partner" (using the term in the loosest possible sense) contains zero threat so long as I have its counter in the wings. So, in reiteration, there is little point in us picking a single (or group), or pokemon to work with this CAP, if common hard counters to these pokemon already easily exist, because as long as I have X hard countered, then I have no issues whatsoever killing CAP, thus, the Concept is not achieved. Specifically, I would want to look at really good set up sweeper, that perhaps have a slightly rarer set that would encourage less specific preparation thus decreasing the chances your opponent already has existing measures in place on his or her team to handle it, thus increasing the likelihood that your opponent will give significant pause before killing our CAP, least it provide that free momentum for our partner(s).

It's also preferable the partner getting set up doesn't instantly get revenged by many common priority users, whether by bulk, resistances, or its own priority. Obviously there are more priority users than Unaware mons and I don't expect to cover them all. But a few would be nice.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I agree with the posts above. CAP19's viability will be largely connected to the viability of the teammates we select for it. If we're going to make the most of the free turn provided by CAP19's death, then we have to make sure to choose a Pokemon that's going to pose a large threat to the opponent's team after just one turn of setup. We're not trying to make a barely viable Pokemon work, we're trying to make a good Pokemon work even better.

Personally, I think Mega Gyarados is the Pokemon to go with here because not a lot of Pokemon hard counter it, it resists the ubiquitous Sucker Punch from Bisharp and Mega Mawile, and can plow through Unaware Pokemon thanks to Mold Breaker (it 2HKOs both Clefable and Quagsire at +1 with Waterfall). It doesn't like Thunder Wave or Brave Bird, but can at least KO the Thundurus or Talonflame after taking the attack.

If we go with Pokemon that can wreck either Unaware Pokemon or priority users, then we can have CAP19 focus on the other half. At the very least, we remove a large burden towards letting our setup turn mean something.

 

[viperfang4]

We could apply an ability with it like suction cups, or so that the opponent cannot boost upon it, unaware. If we go with the stat debugging set and have unaware, it fulfills the role it is trying to play, the opponents rebuffs will not take factor while unaware is out while any other Pokemon would. This would hence make the opponent want to keep it alive for fear of anything else coming in. Then, it left its presence with all the defuffs and the gain of momentum.

 

[jas61292]

While I agree with ginga, srk, and DLC, I would caution against looking to hard at any one individual partner. This concept is not Perfect Mate, and no matter what partner we can choose, if we only have one, we run the risk of running into teams that hold counters to said partner, even if they are not super common. I think that ideally, we should look to pick out a few different Pokemon and be able to partner with all of them (maybe not all at once, but at least set dependent). This minimizes the situations where the opponent will be able to just run X, Y or Z to completely eliminate any fear they have of KOing CAP19. This can be further compounded by running multiple partners, however, do so should be a risk, as I agree that we should not be looking at the most commonly seen strong set up sweepers, and thus this would likely mean running Pokemon that, if the partner strategy fails, would be more of a burden than some of their more popular counterparts.

 

[nyttyn]

Meh, I think by making a good enough mon, we'll wind up accidentally partnering with a few more sweepers anyway. It just kind of happens in Pokemon, and CAP as a whole - no matter what a mon's 'intended' use is, people will always figure out two or three more uses for it if its good enough. At any rate, perhaps we should aim to both partner up with a mon who can bypass unaware users, as well as one who cannot nessescarily do so but is still very good, so that the CAP user has choice. On the other hand, it is entirely possible to partner with too many mons and wind up being watered down as a result, so let's not go for more then two or three potential partners tops, preferably ones with somewhat shared checks+counters.

For what it's worth, I personally support Mega Gyarados, Dragonite, Mega Charizard X as potential partners. All are top-tier sweepers, with their own unique quirks - Mega Gyarados can bypass Unaware mons, Dragonite effectively gets two free turns out of one if you can keep rocks down (thanks to multiscale), and Mega Charizard X can troll burn users.

 

[namemaker]

Meh, I think by making a good enough mon, we'll wind up accidentally partnering with a few more sweepers anyway. It just kind of happens in Pokemon, and CAP as a whole - no matter what a mon's 'intended' use is, people will always figure out two or three more uses for it if its good enough. At any rate, perhaps we should aim to both partner up with a mon who can bypass unaware users, as well as one who cannot nessescarily do so but is still very good, so that the CAP user has choice. On the other hand, it is entirely possible to partner with too many mons and wind up being watered down as a result, so let's not go for more then two or three potential partners tops, preferably ones with somewhat shared checks+counters.

For what it's worth, I personally support Mega Gyarados, Dragonite, Mega Charizard X as potential partners. All are top-tier sweepers, with their own unique quirks - Mega Gyarados can bypass Unaware mons, Dragonite effectively gets two free turns out of one if you can keep rocks down (thanks to multiscale), and Mega Charizard X can troll burn users.

Nyttyn is completely right. Krillawat was meant to be defensive. Now that magic guard makes it great with life orb.
If we are suggesting sweepers to partner with this CAP, I vote Thunderus-T and Dragonite. Dragonite has multiscale, making it extremely easy to set up. Thunderus-T packs a punch agisant even unaware mons and resists Talonflame's Brave Bird, allowing it to KO back.

 

[Burt Racecar]

Another fun thing is that this happens even if Bisharp hasn't set up. If he has, he's at +3. so we have that to consider.

Thanks, I completely forgot to add the defiant boost!

After reading the above posts, I think deciding on a few archetypal teammates would be the way forward as to avoid opponents from hard countering the strategy as such.
It would be ideal if they shared a few common resists so we can decide on which pokemon to draw in with CAP19, and they certainly should not share the same weaknesses.

Taking a look at Mega-Gyarados, Dragonite and Mega-Charizard-X. They each resist fire. Some other resists are shared between two of the three but not the third (Char-X and Mega-Gyarados resist steel, which is neutral to dragonite).
And there are no weaknesses that affect all three. Rock and Dragon are the only shared weaknesses between Char-X and Dragonite. Fairy is the only shared weakness between Dragonite and Mega-Gyarados. There are no shared weaknesses between Char-X and Mega-Gyarados.

Here, we'd know we would NOT want CAP19 to lose to pokemon that prolifically use rock, dragon or fairy moves.

 

[NumberCruncher]

Nyttyn is completely right. Krillawat was meant to be defensive. Now that magic guard makes it great with life orb.
If we are suggesting sweepers to partner with this CAP, I vote Thunderus-T and Dragonite. Dragonite has multiscale, making it extremely easy to set up. Thunderus-T packs a punch agisant even unaware mons and resists Talonflame's Brave Bird, allowing it to KO back.

Dragonite might be a little ambitious, since Clefable can come in at any time even with a Dragon Dance up and just set up Cosmic Powers to force it out. Thundurus-T could be a cool option, since he absolutely needs a turn of set-up if he ever wants to work in OU.

 

[alexwolf]

Meh, I think by making a good enough mon, we'll wind up accidentally partnering with a few more sweepers anyway. It just kind of happens in Pokemon, and CAP as a whole - no matter what a mon's 'intended' use is, people will always figure out two or three more uses for it if its good enough. At any rate, perhaps we should aim to both partner up with a mon who can bypass unaware users, as well as one who cannot nessescarily do so but is still very good, so that the CAP user has choice. On the other hand, it is entirely possible to partner with too many mons and wind up being watered down as a result, so let's not go for more then two or three potential partners tops, preferably ones with somewhat shared checks+counters.

For what it's worth, I personally support Mega Gyarados, Dragonite, Mega Charizard X as potential partners. All are top-tier sweepers, with their own unique quirks - Mega Gyarados can bypass Unaware mons, Dragonite effectively gets two free turns out of one if you can keep rocks down (thanks to multiscale), and Mega Charizard X can troll burn users.

To add to this, all of Dragonite, Mega Charizard X, and Mega Gyarados share some common traits, traits that the opponent can take advantage of with a certain group of Pokemon, a group of Pokemon that the CAP can take advantage of. Dragonite and Mega Charizard X are both checked by bulky Ground-types (Hippowdon, Landorus-T, Quagsire, Rhyperior) and physically bulky Tyranitar, while all of those Pokemon have troubles with Azumarill to a certain extend. Also, all of those Pokemon can struggle to beat Slowbro, and Alomomola to an extend (even though Lum Berry Dragonite and Sub Mega Gyarados fuck up Mola). Finally, all those Pokemon hate common scarfers, such as Terrakion and Garchomp.

So yeah, those three Pokemon are certainly the ideal group of Pokemon to use as back up for the CAP, and Pokemon whose common weaknesses we must study, and find a way to cover them with the CAP.

 

[namemaker]

To add to this, all of Dragonite, Mega Charizard X, and Mega Gyarados share some common traits, traits that the opponent can take advantage of with a certain group of Pokemon, a group of Pokemon that the CAP can take advantage of. Dragonite and Mega Charizard X are both checked by bulky Ground-types (Hippowdon, Landorus-T, Quagsire, Rhyperior) and physically bulky Tyranitar, while all of those Pokemon have troubles with Azumarill to a certain extend. Also, all of those Pokemon can struggle to beat Slowbro, and Alomomola to an extend (even though Lum Berry Dragonite and Sub Mega Gyarados fuck up Mola). Finally, all those Pokemon hate common scarfers, such as Terrakion and Garchomp.

So yeah, those three Pokemon are certainly the ideal group of Pokemon to use as back up for the CAP, and Pokemon whose common weaknesses we must study, and find a way to cover them with the CAP.

Well, I think we should stop worrying about the Pokemon in question and look at something. All the mons you suggested are using dragon dance to set up (unless you like hone claws Dragonite) maybe before looking at what mon this CAP should support, we should look at what boosting move we want this CAP to support

 

[oedipal]

We are technically searching for a reason why your opponent doesn't want CAP 19 to faint. Why should he want this? Because he wouldn't benefit from its defeat, obviously. What you are thinking about so far, those are reasons why your opponent might fear what happens in return. I think, we should consider the other direction. If your opponent doesn't benefit from CAP 19's defeat, well maybe he can profit, too, if it stays in the battle. The problems in this idea are quite obvious. The main question is, of course, why would you as the user of CAP 19 want your opponent to benefit from your Pokemon? How does it give you an advantage to have your opponent's Pokemon profit from your own team member? Whatever CAP 19 would be able to do, couldn't you use another Pokemon instead that won't help your opponent in any way?
The solution in my mind is some kind of symbiosis between CAP 19 and your opponent. CAP 19 strengthens the opponent in any way, but in return the opponent strengthens CAP 19 in another way. Basically, I'm thinking of a better variant of the SwagPlay strategy - have your opponent profit from a higher Atk, but make him more vulnerable to your Foul Play. What about using an Electric type attack on an enemy with Motor Drive just to slow him down using Trick Room? (This example is not at all reliable, of course, because you won't see Motor Drive too often, but you get what I'm talking about.) Make the opponent think he can use CAP 19 for himself, then unteach him. Make him think it's better to have CAP 19 stay on the field, then make him regret not killing it off. How to realize this exactly, I don't know. But if not for his advantage - be it something pseudo-good to happen or something bad not to happen, why would your opponent ever not faint your Pokemon?

 

[capefeather]

I was contemplating the Mega Gyarados + Gothitelle core and it got me thinking. Most of the time, the logic behind a core is that each member deals with the checks and counters of the others. However, there's obviously more to succeeding than that. I generally agree with trying to help Pokemon that can break past Quagsire and Unaware Clefable, but I think we also need to consider the common teammates that such Pokemon have. I'm bringing this up mostly because I don't want to run into a situation where we try to make CAP 19 do everything for a single teammate archetype at once. Our attempts at trying to create a core out of thin air have not gone as we initially expected, because doing so requires a level of specificity that's extremely difficult to achieve in the process we use to build these Pokemon. We should instead be more aware of existing team structures that already work, and fit CAP 19 into those structures.

 

[Psychic Daryl]

We really shouldn't be focusing on a Pokemon that can already provide itself with all the boosts it needs. If we do so, what real impact would the CAP have for its partner? If Mega Mawile would get off a Swords Dance either way, why would you ever sacrifice the CAP to get a Swords Dance? Anything that can already boost reliably SHOULD NOT be our focus for this CAP because it greatly diminishes or possibly even voids the CAP's usefulness. Instead we should be focusing on Pokemon that NEED the extra turn.

Are you saying 19 should stop set-ups?

 

[NumberCruncher]

Are you saying 19 should stop set-ups?

No, he's saying that we shouldn't have CAP 19 support a Pokemon that could reasonably set up without CAP 19s help, completely ignoring the fact that having a free turn of set up without something breathing down your neck raises the general longevity of the your sweeper, which translates into more kills.

 

[NumberCruncher]

The solution in my mind is some kind of symbiosis between CAP 19 and your opponent. CAP 19 strengthens the opponent in any way, but in return the opponent strengthens CAP 19 in another way.

That's an interesting idea, but the problem is that if we design the CAP like that, it's never going to net more advantage than a 1 for 1 trade, where CAP trades with whatever was fighting it. This means that in nearly all cases, you're going to be better off using a Destiny Bond Pokemon than CAP 19.

 

[Karpi]

Normally I lurk in these threads, but I just wanted to say that I think you guys should avoid the idea of sacrificing a pokemon to guarantee a setup for another.
You can already do that in various ways, and it's not like what you think it is.

Go find a one-turn setup sweeper (Mawile?) and a Butterfree. Butterfree can Sleep+U-turn and it's "dead" because it will have 1 HP. You have a free turn to set up your sweeper, but there's a reason people don't use this strategy. It's ALMOST ALWAYS worth it to just have a second pokemon (Gyarados?) that isn't dead weight.

 

[Boss jr.]

I've been lurking through this for a good while now and had an idea as I was reading all of the comments here. The idea is to discourage the opponent from fainting the CAP. There's 2 different ways I can see this going. What if the CAP healed a teammate by like 30%-50% upon fainting (or even granted a revive like effect recovering another fainted poke by 30% or something) or if it's fainted with an attack move rather than passive or indirect damage faints the pokemon who used it? That second bit might be too powerful so what if there was a different way to punish them for fainting it?

There's also a third way. What if the CAP set up a free entry hazard when it fainted like Toxic Spikes or Spikes etc? You could deny it these moves and give it added usefulness some other way just so it's not a martyr. Perhaps the cap has a chance of inflicting a status when it faints like curse (since curse is a status not seen often and can stack on top of poison etc.). You want to keep it alive though so what if it was a healer or baton passer? Something that can serve the team well both in life and in death. If it had an ability that set up hazards upon fainting that would be something that would be felt on the field long after the poke was gone.

Just some ideas but it seems to me that this pokes who strategy hinges on an ability that makes fainting it something to think twice about.

 

[Lyren]

Normally I lurk in these threads, but I just wanted to say that I think you guys should avoid the idea of sacrificing a pokemon to guarantee a setup for another.
You can already do that in various ways, and it's not like what you think it is.

Go find a one-turn setup sweeper (Mawile?) and a Butterfree. Butterfree can Sleep+U-turn and it's "dead" because it will have 1 HP. You have a free turn to set up your sweeper, but there's a reason people don't use this strategy. It's ALMOST ALWAYS worth it to just have a second pokemon (Gyarados?) that isn't dead weight.

You're making an assumption here that CAP 19 is only good for supporting a set up sweeper. I think it's very possible to make a Poke who is more than capable of acting like the Butterfree in your example while still having traits that make it an otherwise good Pokemon, even when it's not trying to get KO'd. I see where you're coming from as far as the Butterfree thing goes, but I think it's worth discussing the question, if it's not worth running pokes like Butterfree, why is it not worth it and what could be made different about them to have on your team? What if Butterfree was a more capable sweeper on it's own, and fainting was more like a "Second Wind", to go into another sweeper and keep the destruction going?

 

[PikapowerUltra]

I've been reading for the whole assessment discussion, and I think that the wall of spikes idea is the most viable. Using Ferrothorn as an example, you only want to use indirect, super effective attacks on it because direct attacks hurt you and neutral attacks don't do much to it unless they're extremely strong. A common strategy for Ferrothorn is to use it to bait fire moves, which is something you can do even when your opponent knows what Ferrothorn does, because they only have one option unless they predict perfectly. Also, ferrothorn leaves a lasting impact in the form of hazards and damage from iron barbs and possibly rocky helmet. While ferrothorn is already a good example of this type of pokemon, it is still possible to create a different type of wall of spikes. One example would be a GOOD dark/ghost pokemon that needs a fairy attack to ko effectively.