Metagame Misdreavus = dead, Fletchling = alive

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Max Carvalho

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236 Atk burned Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 7-9 (30.4 - 39.1%) -- 85.5% chance to 3HKO
(7, 7, 7, 7, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
nah lol, mienfoo still beats missy even when burned, 70% damage dealt to missy and mienfoo can still be alive if you switch it out after the second knock off if you need to cripple a foongus or w/e

Sub+BJ literally does nothing that helps vs mienfoo, at best it'll just waste its berry juice and lose 60% health against the knock off when its BJ has been used

Missy has literally no advantage in setting up vs foo
Have you read my post? I was talking about defensive foo which doesn't run any attack EVs. Offensive foo runs LO (unless you know someone that runs offensive foo with Evio.) so it is KOed (Dazz) by Missy after SR (And has a nice chance being KOed without prior damage anyway.).
 

apt-get

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We have a burned Ferroseed calc again :] Ferro is much likely T Waving (or Leech Seeding lololol) then attacking especially if it is the first answer to Missy. After the NP boost Spritzee is going for the Wish then the obvious Protect, so Missy has the upper hand to set up at least one more time. You are giving situations where defensive mons are going to be attacking like mad mans, be realistic. Tell me because I am eager to know what the hell will revenge kill Misdreavus after the pitful damage these guys made and knowing that Misdreavus has the given situations so it can sweep? By the way Misdreavus doesn't need to sweep the opposing team all alone so it can give Misdreavus's user the victory. It can cripple a lot of mon, weaken a bit more and even KO some and its job is done another sweeper will do the remaining job. And how Misdreavus can be stoppable if she is played correctly?
Have you read my post? I was talking about defensive foo which doesn't run any attack EVs. Offensive foo runs LO (unless you know someone that runs offensive foo with Evio.) so it is KOed (Dazz) by Missy after SR (And has a nice chance being KOed without prior damage anyway.).
My bad, I assumed the calculator had the defensive set as the main set. Either way, It's still around 30% so it's the same
Feelin tired, will reply to ur main post tomorrow
 
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I think this discussion shouldn't be about "What can Misdreavus set up on?". It should be set on "Is it particularly easy for Misdreavus to adapt to its checks?" AND "What roles can Missy perform for a team?" I think the answer to those questions will lead to how "broken" or "balanced" Misdreavus really is.
 
I think this discussion shouldn't be about "What can Misdreavus set up on?". It should be set on "Is it particularly easy for Misdreavus to adapt to its checks?" AND "What roles can Missy perform for a team?" I think the answer to those questions will lead to how "broken" or "balanced" Misdreavus really is.
I'll start on this.

Is it particularly easy for Misdreavus to adapt to its checks?
Uh it's easy to that it does well against most of its checks on paper, with access to Dbond and crippling moves like WoW/Taunt/Sub. Then you look at how Substitute slowly gets yourself killed while having no recovery unless you run Berry Juice (which in that case means you either forego Life Orb or have even more Knock Off issues). Pain Split is an option, but unless someone proves and shows how practical Pain Split can be, I'm not taking that into consideration. You also take a look at how Taunt makes you have to get rid of either Sub, NP, HP Fight, or Dazzling Gleam. I don't wanna get into people calling me out for shitty 4MSS arguments, so that's the farthest I go on Misdreavus in that regard. Anyway, with Taunt you are still weak to Knock Off users revenge killing you, and if someone predicts the taunt and goes into something Pawniard, or even just using a good counter like Chespin/Porygon/Licki, your Misdreavus is taking massive damage and will have issues performing through the rest of the game.

Also, I'm not even gonna think of arguments like "it can use Toxic to deal with Pory" unless people actually start running this shit, since that's when 4MSS actually is real and it is just a flawed argument until once again, it is proven to be a practical thing to do.

What roles can Missy perform for a team?[
The counter question to this would be "How much does versatility in teambuilding matter regarding it being broken?" I could use Cottonee for its switching into Fighting-types, Knock Off (some of the most warranted things in the meta atm), getting a sweeper into an ideal condition to win, luring in common switchins like Foongus/Fletch with the Choice Specs set (something I did a lot of for suspect reqs) It is a given that Misdreavus fills more roles/arguably is better in more situations than cotton but that argument still stands, that being able to fill multiple roles on a team doesn't attribute a lot when it comes to it being broken. If anything, roles on a team would look at "metagame relevancy" more than "broken-ness"

Now to another argument that I have seen a bit and hopefully should no longer be brought up. Particularly that of "pokemon like Slowpoke/Trubbish are considered not very worthwhile because of Misdreavus' existence" There will always be a "best" poke in the tier no matter what, since some Pokemon are just more practical than others when it comes to the term I like to use "metagame relevancy". Think of it like global trends and its effect on the economy, if there is less of a fad/need for something, it would obviously drop in sales. If there isn't a warrant for Slowpoke or Trubbish in teambuilding, then it won't be used as much. Of course these are just examples, as imo Slowpoke and Trubbish are still great pokemon, Payback on Trubbish is real cool and Slowpoke can still offer some of the best TWave support in the game. But once again, the argument still stands that a Pokemon isn't broken because it lessens the usage of some other mons.
 
Missy can exploit so many sets man.

It's hard to have a guaranteed check/counter to this. The best way for me to beat it is Scarf Pawniard / Scarf mon / Porygon. Everything else is shaky, even then I still have trouble. I don't think anyone has mentioned the Trick Specs + NP Missy that pretty much cripples walls that don't hit hard unless they have super effective stab, and hits any offensive pressure with a Stab or good coverage move. As a player I try to consider every set possible that a threat can have, and honestly it's hard for me to keep up with every set. I have faced situations where I switch my Scarf Pawn into wisp or sub + hp fight missy and I get fucked, My Porygon is facing a +2 Missy and idk whether to attack or twave. Even then I still don't know if it carries hp fight. Scenarios like these are the reason I feel Missy is broken.

Picking Dazzling and HP Fight isn't that big of a deal in my eyes. They both give you perfect coverage which is pretty neat.

Just my little cents on Mossy, since I haven't posted about it yet.
 

fatty

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i know what you're trying to get at apt-get, as i too believe that it a lot harder to fully abuse missy than people make it out to be. you have to play it just right to get a dominant impact out of missy, it doesn't just slaughter teams automatically. i will say, though, that you trying to make it seem like missy has little to no chance of setting up is just false. you mention that misdreavus arguments are not completely valid because missy is not always going to be at full health and ready to take on checks / counters, but niether are those same checks / counters, or the rest of an opponents team for that matter. for example, if u have pawn + missy, you can pretty much guarantee mienfoo or timburr is gonna be knocked off, so dazzling gleams becomes much more scary. hell, if setting up is the only problem, throw a memento mon on with missy and problem solved. it seems to me that knock off has hindered missy's ability to be an all game threat, as it was in bw, because now it has to be extremely wary of switching into even things it's supposed to beat (fighters). for this reason, it's definitely been limited to a late game sweeper, and possible mid-game crippler with wow. that said though, missy can still be an extremely dominant force and does find a fair share of set up opportunities. berry juice, which i believe to be the better set because it actually does let it set up easier against a fair amount on mons and im not gonna let missy eat a knock off anyways unless i really have to, can take advantage of some pretty valid pokemon. to name a few...

- archen: if it's defensive, all u have to worry about is aa, and if it's bj, it doesn't even have a strong acro to begin with, so you can just wow from the get go and freely set up np as acro is only going to be doing around 20-26%, and rock slide is only doing like 30-39%, still not nearly enough.
- tirtouga: yea unless this has knock off, you're going to be winning with wow.
- chinchou: this thing doesn't really run twave coz grasses dont care and other chous, so it's not doing much and is a p easy np.
- drilbur: p much the same deal as archen, it cant do enough with eq after burn, and it gets +2 while u knock it back to 100% with bj.
- diglett: i everything beats diglett if it can't hit it with se eq, but i guess it counts.
- bunnelby: gone down in usage, but still very viable and strong mon that misdreavus very much appreciates free setup opportunities from.
- trubbish: same as bunnelby, misdreavus eats.

and thats not to mention all other ingame opportunities that you're just completely neglecting. support mons such as the 5 other mons that make up a team are going to be suited for setting up missy. encore, memento, things like sleep and even voltturn can put enough pressure on other teams to allow for a fairly easy set up where on paper it shouldn't have been. bottom line, misdreavus, like most sweepers, especially of its caliber, will find opportunities to set up.

im also curious about people that just make the general claim of "my team doesn't / i don't have a problem with said pokemon, so i don't think it's broken". suspect processes are made to explore every possible angle on which a suspect can be seen in order to gain a knowledgeable perspective. if your team doesn't have a problem with it, make another team. if you keep not having a problem against it, abuse it yourself. this allows you to see every single possible side to the argument. as it pertains to missy, and me personally, i can reasonably say i haven't had nearly the same problem playing against it as i have fletchling. what i can also say, though, is that i have swept more teams with misdreavus than any other mon, and its not even close. thats not even to say i go all out trying to break out a missy sweep, because you don't have to. misdreavus works for itself, and more time than i can count there have been instances where i can just randomly realize, not even thinking about it the entire match, "oh fuck missy sweeps", and proceed to win the match.
 

chimp

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I kinda agree with apt-get here. I've always known missy to be pretty easy to deal with yet being broken on paper, but I never really knew why this was.
I think its cause Missy kinda forces these weird 50/50s. If it comes in on a Pokemon that can't do anything to it, you have to make the choice of switching to a counter or saccing the pokemon for the sake of damage. If you switch, it may substitute and you may possibly lose your counter. If you stay in, it may continue to set-up on you or may keep its sub up for longer.

But in practice, this doesn't apply as much.
Of the current Top 25 most used Pokemon, 7 (Mienfoo, Fletchling, Magnemite, Archen, Chinchou, Vullaby, Aipom) have a momentum grabbing move like U-turn or Volt Switch to ease your way out of the situation above. Another 17 (Other Misdreavus, Mienfoo, Pawniard, Drilbur, Abra, Timburr, Porygon, Spritzee, Scraggy, Tirtouga, Vullaby, Cottonee, Vulpix, Diglett, Croagunk, Dwebble, Ponyta, Aipom, Carvanha) have ways, be it by their movepool, typing, or ability, to deter Misdreavus from setting-up, switching in, or sweeping.
 
Well regarding it not being broken because it outclasses other Pokemon, that's obvious, since the word broken is used to define something overpowered, mostly. But if it's making everything else seem like shit because it can do multiple things better, then you have to resort to finding niches on the outclassed Pokemon, thus limiting diversity, which is an unpleasant factor.
Misdreavus uses Pain Split on stall so that shouldn't be considered an option for recovery on the offensive sets, since it's not necessary to use that when you can cripple something with Taunt/WoW or simply set up your Substitute/NP and proceed to become an instant threat to your team. Also, Misdreavus can run the Trick Scarf/Specs set, which pretty much cripples anything you switch in unless it's something like Porygon, but as we now, Porygon feels uncomfortable with the thought of switching into a Taunt + WoW or Taunt + Nasty Plot BJ set. Not to mention Misdreavus gets Destiny Bond to take something down with it if for some reason you don't feel like checking Pokemon individually and want a way to check them all with her. Lastly, it gets Memento, which can be used as a way to get a free turn of setup since your opponent will be too weak to be able to stop you. (Status works, although I don't see why you'd use Memento on a Pokemon that carries a status move that will prevent your setup)
 

macle

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The main reason why that Missy is relatively easy to deal with is because it can't boost its speed and has no priority moves. You can just throw out a scarf mon (and that missy is low on heath or its really powerful) after Missy kills something and deal with it while Pokemon like Swirlix and Yanma can increase their speed so they outspeed scarfers. Though just because Missy can be relatively "easy" to deal with, doesn't mean its not unhealthy for the metagame.
 
Well regarding it not being broken because it outclasses other Pokemon, that's obvious, since the word broken is used to define something overpowered, mostly. But if it's making everything else seem like shit because it can do multiple things better, then you have to resort to finding niches on the outclassed Pokemon, thus limiting diversity, which is an unpleasant factor.
Misdreavus uses Pain Split on stall so that shouldn't be considered an option for recovery on the offensive sets, since it's not necessary to use that when you can cripple something with Taunt/WoW or simply set up your Substitute/NP and proceed to become an instant threat to your team. Also, Misdreavus can run the Trick Scarf/Specs set, which pretty much cripples anything you switch in unless it's something like Porygon, but as we now, Porygon feels uncomfortable with the thought of switching into a Taunt + WoW or Taunt + Nasty Plot BJ set. Not to mention Misdreavus gets Destiny Bond to take something down with it if for some reason you don't feel like checking Pokemon individually and want a way to check them all with her. Lastly, it gets Memento, which can be used as a way to get a free turn of setup since your opponent will be too weak to be able to stop you. (Status works, although I don't see why you'd use Memento on a Pokemon that carries a status move that will prevent your setup)
EDIT: Also, the reason I asked "What roles can Missy perform for a team?" Was to determine whether she fulfills all her roles successfully, simply because she can either find many easy setup opportunities to sweep or finds it easy to cripple things without having any risk whatsoever. Pokemon like Trubbish and Slowpoke already have a purpose as Knock Off sponge and bulky status spreader, respectively, and they have the stats to back up their niche, so that's fine.
 

fatty

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the thing with missy is that it doesn't even perform a particular role, it's just so good and easy to fit on a team because it fills a variety of small roles put together. it's fast, it's powerful, has a good support movepool, and its typing / ability allows for unique and useful immunities / resistances.
 
Along with what fatty said, its sort of like Gligar. No matter the set, whether a set up sweeper, support, or cleaner, its something you always have to prepare for, however thats not so different from a lot of other mons as well. I'm honestly not swayed yet on what the metagame would look like without it, I'm personally too scared to change what honestly is a DECENT meta right before the most important tournament of the year. I'd recommend holding a quick mini tour similar to what ubers was going to do/is doing, to see just how bad/good the new metagame will be, because personally, I don't feel like Misdreavus is flat out BROKEN, but its definately hella strong compared to the other mons one can use, same goes for Fletchling (although its ability may actually be BROKEN).
 

tcr

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Along with what fatty said, its sort of like Gligar. No matter the set, whether a set up sweeper, support, or cleaner, its something you always have to prepare for, however thats not so different from a lot of other mons as well. I'm honestly not swayed yet on what the metagame would look like without it, I'm personally too scared to change what honestly is a DECENT meta right before the most important tournament of the year. I'd recommend holding a quick mini tour similar to what ubers was going to do/is doing, to see just how bad/good the new metagame will be, because personally, I don't feel like Misdreavus is flat out BROKEN, but its definately hella strong compared to the other mons one can use, same goes for Fletchling (although its ability may actually be BROKEN).
Hosting a "minitour" will do nothing. People will literally use the same teams as they do now, except with Pokemon to replace Fletchling, Misdreavus, or both if need be. It simply would not matter in the short time between now and the grand slam. Look at this meta. People are just now starting to use things like Chespin, or Sandshrew, or whatever the current hype is. We had no problem starting LCPL shortly after the Krowtite suspect tests, which albeit not important forum wide were incredibly important to the LC community. The reason was the meta woulod not develop for a couple weeks, possibly a month later.
 

prem

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the thing with missy is that it doesn't even perform a particular role, it's just so good and easy to fit on a team because it fills a variety of small roles put together. it's fast, it's powerful, has a good support movepool, and its typing / ability allows for unique and useful immunities / resistances.

yeah my computer died on me recently so i couldnt post, so im just going to post from now on or something.


basically thats why i think missy isnt okay for the metagame. any pokemon tahts so good taht you can just throw it on any team to do basically anything incredibly well is not called a positive force in the metagame. I literally put missy on everyone of my teams as the only mon who can take a hit and deal sufficent damage for me because im a HO player and i only expect like 2 pokemon to take a hit anyway LOL. Missy is not some god sweeper that is unstoppable and it definately does have a few options that beaet it, but the problem is that it functions so well even against all of these options; its massive support options in basically either dbond memento wisp and then the option to set up sweep is unrrealistically dumb to try to counter because it will literally just do what it wants.

fletchling im pretty on teh fence about because i honestly dont think its flat out broken, but because of fatty's posts i honestly cant say missy is broken but fletchling is not. they are both similar in that they both just go on every team without support and will function properly always because they are just that good. i think i might be leaning to pro ban on both of them just because of their negative effects on their metagame, but this is honestly a philosophy question to me over anything else in this suspect. Neither of them are broken by any means, but at the same time neither of them create a positive effect on the metagame. basically someone convince me if i should ban whats good for the metagame or if i should ban only what is broken because i dont know :(


also its 2 am and i had 2 hours of sleep yesterday so thisp ost probably sucks major ass LOL sorryy
 
Well, I could post a really long analysis like all the other people did, but I'm 2 tired for all the text, so I'll end this quick

Tbh, I think missy and fletch being inside the current meta isn't much of a big problem.
There are several solutions for misdreavus and fletch, and I would even say that the meta right now a very balanced.

Misdreavus experiences much risk when encountering pawniard, especially scarf pawniard, and often has no choice but switching out.
Even mienfoo survives a standard D gleam and hits hard with a knock off, which can be fatal for an eviolite set misdreavus

Fletchling has A LOT of checks such as steel or electric types. Scarf chinchou or magnemite especially gives fletchling only two choice, either to run or die.
To add, fletch isn't even classified as a rank S poke due to its flaws.

Even though these two pokemon have notable strengths, I don't think they're that much broken for bans

IMO, all we need to do is prepare for them or even use them ourselves to balance out the gaps.
With the most over powered pokes such as (scyther, tite, sneasel) gone with, I believe this is the best balance within the meta we can have right now.
If we get to ban fletch and misdreavus and ruin the good harmony that's going on, I'm pretty sure that many other problems will occur.

Well, the thoughts on that the current meta is harmonious is totally my own opinion, so... yeah...

.............

Umm, so lets not ban fletch and misdreavus? Lol
 
Along with what fatty said, its sort of like Gligar. No matter the set, whether a set up sweeper, support, or cleaner, its something you always have to prepare for, however thats not so different from a lot of other mons as well. I'm honestly not swayed yet on what the metagame would look like without it, I'm personally too scared to change what honestly is a DECENT meta right before the most important tournament of the year. I'd recommend holding a quick mini tour similar to what ubers was going to do/is doing, to see just how bad/good the new metagame will be, because personally, I don't feel like Misdreavus is flat out BROKEN, but its definately hella strong compared to the other mons one can use, same goes for Fletchling (although its ability may actually be BROKEN).
I agree with you, a mini tour could be useful. Hovever, you have to prepare for Misdreavus. But because it's a s-rank and I'm sure you have to prepare very well in all tier vs a s-rank pokemon and with a high percentuage usage. I think Gligar was quite different, a first step analysis could be to see simply their values:

  • Gligar => HP 65 Atk 75 Def 105 SpA 35 SpD 65 Spe 85
  • Misdreavus => HP 60 Atk 60 Def 60 SpA 85 SpD 85 Spe 85

What I could tell is that Misdreavus versatility is real, like his strengh and dangerousness. But IMO the tier gives many ways to limit very well him. His weakness to better move (I think it's longer used too) in LC, I think should be evaluate like a important deterrent.
 
Yo so we are talking suspect test right now, i'm gonna join oO. I'm just gonna let you know that i'm typing on phone and i really suck at writing paragraphs so i'm not gonna write too much and probably making some mistakes. Just writing this because i want a badge to give my opinion about the two suspected mons o_o

Misdreavus.
Type : Ghost
Ability : Levitate
Stats : 60 / 60 / 60 / 85 / 85 / 85

Hey, just look at these really good stats for a pokemon in the LC tier and you will see missy's great power and high speed with a really nice bulk and a ground immunity with the ability levitate. Great 60/60/85 defenses allow misdreavus to setup easily with nasty plot, have a +2 boost and sweep teams. And what makes it scary is that there are a few checks for the nasty plot set. Let's take this one for exemple :

Misdreavus @ Berry Juice
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 36 Def / 236 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power Fighting
- Substitute

Scenario : misdreavus vs. Trubbish (for example or any other pokemon who switches when misdreavus come in)
T1 : Misdreavus uses nasty plot when opponent switches in porygon.
T2 : Missy creates a sub on the thunder wave
T2 : Missy uses HP fighting and causes really big damages at +2

You see, misdreavus' ability to get pas some of its checks is great, as it can eliminate them and sweep. It can use an eviolite for additional bulk, a berry juice to restaure health because of its lack of recovery or even take a choice item and surprise other pokemon.
Now let's talk about movepool. Misdreavus' interesting moves are : Substitute, nasty plot, shadow ball, dazzling gleam, will-o-wisp, hidden power fighting, thunderbolt, destiny bond, psychic, trick, pain split, taunt and more and more... Lol that is a huge list, so missy's versatility is really big and like i explained it can have too many sets.
All these make misdreavus a dangerous pokemon in the little cup metagame and maybe making it less fun ? You know, everyone is looking for a balanced meta, today ! To counter misdreavus, scarf pawniard is your boy as he can pursuit trap it. And i think : ban Misdreavus.


Fletchling.
Type : Normal / Flying
Ability : Gale Wings
Stats : 45 / 50 / 43 / 40 / 38 / 62

Fletchling is another monster in the little cup meta but like everybody knows, it is less dangerous than misdreavus. However, with 45/43/38 defenses, it do not have too much bulk to take some hits. Fletchling is usually a late game sweeper who sets up a sword dance and sweep after ALL its checks have been removed and that's way diglett is his best friend. Fletch + Diglett is a really cool offensive core that kicks ass easily. The goal of this core is to bring fletchling on something that he can easily set up on it ; here the opponent is surely bringing a check and here we go, you just u-turn, bring diggy and take some souls. And i think on archen causes problems to this core. I know i know, here we are talking about our little bird, not fletch + diglett lol, and i wanted to explain that fletchling needs some support to be succesful in this meta and has got too much checks like chinchou, archen, aron, cranidos, elekid and more and more.. Here i wanna show you a set :
Fletchling
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 156 HP / 196 Atk / 92 Def / 52 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics
- Swords Dance
- U-Turn
- Roost

^This is the most used set because if paires with diglett it's a carnage imo. And lol i'm not gonna explain it ;)
Yea i'm tired i'm tired i'm tired i'm tired i wanna finish that now, fletchling is easily checked but anyways it's a great pokemon with an excellent ability but have got weak defenses and not a great attack stat. So imo : do not ban fletchling. And yeah i voted for it in the voting thread i'm really dumb oO
Thanks guys for reading my first suspect discussion paragraph, i really appreciate it ~
 
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Rowan

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90% of the time I use misdreavus I use a nasty plot and berry juice set. I really don't think eviolite is the way to go with misdreavus because it's so naturally bulky that almost nothing can Ohko it meaning it can set up, get back to full health and then ko the mon you set up on. Unless the opponent had a scarf pawniard or scraggy, it can then take almost any priority hit and ko the priority user. I'm not saying it always works out this way, but it often does because it's so hard to switch into.

Also I want it say this: I never use missy as a late game sweeper. It works best mid game, it can disrupt the opposing team, take a couple of mons out so something else has an easier time sweeping. Moves like wisp, dbond really help to cripple or take out opposing mons and it's been discussed to death about how sub and taunt help it get round counters. So something else can clean. It's almost like an offensive support mon to me.

And I haven't even touched on life orb, or specs sets...
 
I'll start on this.



Uh it's easy to that it does well against most of its checks on paper, with access to Dbond and crippling moves like WoW/Taunt/Sub. Then you look at how Substitute slowly gets yourself killed while having no recovery unless you run Berry Juice (which in that case means you either forego Life Orb or have even more Knock Off issues). Pain Split is an option, but unless someone proves and shows how practical Pain Split can be, I'm not taking that into consideration. You also take a look at how Taunt makes you have to get rid of either Sub, NP, HP Fight, or Dazzling Gleam. I don't wanna get into people calling me out for shitty 4MSS arguments, so that's the farthest I go on Misdreavus in that regard. Anyway, with Taunt you are still weak to Knock Off users revenge killing you, and if someone predicts the taunt and goes into something Pawniard, or even just using a good counter like Chespin/Porygon/Licki, your Misdreavus is taking massive damage and will have issues performing through the rest of the game.

Also, I'm not even gonna think of arguments like "it can use Toxic to deal with Pory" unless people actually start running this shit, since that's when 4MSS actually is real and it is just a flawed argument until once again, it is proven to be a practical thing to do.


The counter question to this would be "How much does versatility in teambuilding matter regarding it being broken?" I could use Cottonee for its switching into Fighting-types, Knock Off (some of the most warranted things in the meta atm), getting a sweeper into an ideal condition to win, luring in common switchins like Foongus/Fletch with the Choice Specs set (something I did a lot of for suspect reqs) It is a given that Misdreavus fills more roles/arguably is better in more situations than cotton but that argument still stands, that being able to fill multiple roles on a team doesn't attribute a lot when it comes to it being broken. If anything, roles on a team would look at "metagame relevancy" more than "broken-ness"

Now to another argument that I have seen a bit and hopefully should no longer be brought up. Particularly that of "pokemon like Slowpoke/Trubbish are considered not very worthwhile because of Misdreavus' existence" There will always be a "best" poke in the tier no matter what, since some Pokemon are just more practical than others when it comes to the term I like to use "metagame relevancy". Think of it like global trends and its effect on the economy, if there is less of a fad/need for something, it would obviously drop in sales. If there isn't a warrant for Slowpoke or Trubbish in teambuilding, then it won't be used as much. Of course these are just examples, as imo Slowpoke and Trubbish are still great pokemon, Payback on Trubbish is real cool and Slowpoke can still offer some of the best TWave support in the game. But once again, the argument still stands that a Pokemon isn't broken because it lessens the usage of some other mons.
Your correct in saying that Misdreavus has a bit of 4mss and running moves like Taunt make you have to ditch another option but the point is when team building you have to take into account that Misdreavus can run all these different sets even if it can't run them all at the same time which forces you to run multiple checks just in case your opponent uses a different set. No Dazzling Gleam then Timburr is good but if it has Dazzling Gleam then your screwed. If it runs Dazzling Gleam instead of Hp Fight then you might be okay with Pawnaird but what if it's packing Hp fight? Yes it won't run all it's viable moves of one set but you got to take into consideration when team building that missy can run heaps of sets that beat or cripple potential checks. Am I the only one who worries about what if my opponent is using a choice trick set when I switch Porygon into Missy?

Also I do believe that variety in sets a Pokemon can run does make it 'more broken' if that makes sense lol. What your post did show me is Cottonee is better than I thought because of its ability to run an offensive set to preform better against checks. Keep in mind Misdreavus shares this trait with Cottonee yet also has superior BST, and a little more variety in the sets it can run (it's got a few nasty plot sets, choice trick sets, defensive sets)

I do agree with your last point though, those Pokemon are still useful (trubbish, slowpoke) although without missy they would be better but yeah... Missy doesn't make them useless or anything
 
People can handle Missy with ease probably because of Scarf Pawniard or some other Scarf Mon. Those aren't healthy ways to me because they involve revenge killing meaning you're gonna have to fodder something it bring in the scarfer. I'm pretty sure that's the reason most people never have trouble with Missy.
 
Revenge killers revenge kill sweepers/wallbreakers, it's just the nature of things, there are many non-broken pokemon in LC and in other metagames that don't have any real switchins, but they are not broken. There's just nothing more to say than that.
 

Max Carvalho

Que os jogos comecem
That's just me but wouldn't the healthier way be to wall the sweeper? Revenge killers can't switch in the sweeper; they come after something already was KOed. Revenge killing is healthy but walling something is much better as it can usually switch in safely into the opposing threat. It was already shown tho, that nothing can switch in safely into Misdreavus; so Misdreavus will often (more then anything else) guarantee a KO if played correctly.
 

apt-get

it's not over 'til it's over
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That's just me but wouldn't the healthier way be to wall the sweeper? Revenge killers can't switch in the sweeper; they come after something already was KOed. Revenge killing is healthy but walling something is much better as it can usually switch in safely into the opposing threat. It was already shown tho, that nothing can switch in safely into Misdreavus; so Misdreavus will often (more then anything else) guarantee a KO if played correctly.
so, by your logic, pokémon like Darumaka/Cranidos are broken? After all, they can easily guarantee a KO too. How about Clamperl, then? It's easily one of the most threatening setup sweepers: almost nothing can wall it. Does that make these pokémon broke? No. They all can't be walled, but they can be revenge killed.
 

Rowan

The professor?
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Cranidos and darumaka come up in every suspect discussion I swear...

If one of these wall breakers predicts wrong then they don't get a kill and are forced out due to frailty and not amazing speed, unless scarf which makes them much more reliant on prediction.
Misdreavus has bulk and almost no need to predict and it gets kills.
 
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