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Mienfoo can opt to u-turn to something to handle Fletchling and heal up later with Drain Punch and Regenerator or use High Jump Kick or Stone Edge.
Foongus 2HKO's Fletchling, so even if it can't put it to sleep, Fletchling can't reliably switch in on Foongus.
Scraggy OHKO's with HJK over a third of the time, without even taking rocks into consideration. Scraggy also has access to Head Smash, sometimes used to break Vullaby.
Croagunk can even EV if you have a tough time with Fletch to outspeed and 2HKO with Sludge Bomb and Sucker Punch. I know it's a suboptimal set but if Fletchling was the metagame defining pokemon people make it out to be, wouldn't it be considered the optimal set?
Point is they most definitely can do something back and you can't just assume they're going to be using weaker moves. Because of Fletchling's low attack stat, even pokemon it checks can abuse it. Also, Fletchling is far more prone to being worn down because of it's weakness to SR and the pokemon you mentioned all resist it, have Regenerator, or both.
I took that first section of the post to mean more that even though he doesn't run a single dedicated Fletchling check and two of his pokemon are weak to it, his team still works well. If Fletchling could really abuse things that are weak to it and sweep, this wouldn't be the case and he'd be stomped by Fletchling every time.
Last I checked, bulky Mienfoo, as I said, don't run neither High Jump Kick nor Stone Edge. And after Mienfoo or Foongus are weakened to like 10-20%, even with regenerator, you're going to largely kill your momentum to try and bring them back to full health by switching in and out. And fair enough, I'll give you the thing about Scraggy. Also, if you EV gunk to be able to outspeed and 2hko, he won't be surviving an Acrobatics. Also, whereas these pokemon have regenerator/resist stealth rock, Fletchling has access to Roost, allowing it to recover its HP on a predicted switch.
As for your second part, Blara is a good player. The ladder in general is most certainly not. This is what fatty was saying; a person of equal skill level could probably easily sweep through that team.
I also wanted to point out that the majority of setting up / threatening that Fletchling does is just to Pokemon weak to Flying. Yes, that should be obvious, but let me elaborate. I have a team that I was doing pretty well with, and its Fletchling checks were Ferroseed (weak to Overheat), Elekid, and Sash Abra, and that was it. The other Pokemon were Larvesta, Drilbur, and Mienfoo. I never once had a problem with Fletchling since even though I had Flying weak Pokemon, Drilbur was not OHKOed at all and as such could stay in and threaten with Rock Slide. The former 3 all threatened / OHKOed Fletchling. Larvesta forced it to risk Burn and yeah Mienfoo was weak to it but that was okay.
A big reason that Fletchling has never really threatened me that badly is due to it not being really strong at all. Sure it is super useful against Fighting- and Grass-type Pokemon but if it can't OHKO you, it can't set up and will probably die in the process. Often, the majority of the checking I do to Fletchling is just tanking a hit and OHKOing it. It really only has a limited list of Pokemon it can OHKO. Everything else is essentially a check (unless in dying range, obviously).
What do you guys think? Does its inability to OHKO the majority of threats in the metagame make it easier to handle, or does the Fletchling user just have to wait until everything else is weakend / in range, and bring Fletchling out late game? And if so, does that make Fletchling broken, or just an effective cleaner / strong Pokemon?
Good work guys, I'm really hearing a lot of good points. My opinions on the suspects have been swayed multiple times this entire thread (primarily on Fletchling).
This a great point which I haven't honestly considered that. With that said I think Fletchling should be preserved late game when trying to sweep and only be brought in to revenge kill things. The 50 atk BST is made up for when you count a 110 BP stab attack with good offensive typing, most Pokemon have like a 80-90 BP Stab to use unless you count those powerful moves with downsides like Flare Blitz and Stome Edge so this in a way makes up for Fletchlings disappointing attack stat so I would argue that it's powerful enough. Besides it's not like fletch is going to Ohko or 2hko everything that switches in (although Pokemon who are weak to its stab are common) but just being able to pick of weakened threats and then be used late game is what makes it good. Pivots like Mienfoo synergies great with Fletchling and allow you to bring it in easily to revenge kill things while still being healthy enough to be used as a late game sweeper. Keeping stealth rock up is like the only thing you can do to give fletch a hard time sweeping late game if it's coming in to revenge kill things.
Although Fletchling is frail it only has to be hit once while it's swords dancing, and it can generally live a non super effective hit (iirc I think drilbur rock slide fails to Ohko but I will calc it when I am off my phone)
Also in some cases Fletchling doesn't need a swords dance to sweep note I said 'some cases' some Pokemon that are common late game are Abra on its focus sash because it's ko'd something and regenerator mons like foongus and Mienfoo since their ability simply gives them longevity. Fletchling wouldn't need boosted hits to get past Pokemon like these if Mienfoo and foongus have slight damage. These are just particular cases but it can happen
Last I checked, bulky Mienfoo, as I said, don't run neither High Jump Kick nor Stone Edge. And after Mienfoo or Foongus are weakened to like 10-20%, even with regenerator, you're going to largely kill your momentum to try and bring them back to full health by switching in and out. And fair enough, I'll give you the thing about Scraggy. Also, if you EV gunk to be able to outspeed and 2hko, he won't be surviving an Acrobatics. Also, whereas these pokemon have regenerator/resist stealth rock, Fletchling has access to Roost, allowing it to recover its HP on a predicted switch.
As for your second part, Blara is a good player. The ladder in general is most certainly not. This is what fatty was saying; a person of equal skill level could probably easily sweep through that team.
I think you need to keep in mind that we're discussing the pokemon that have the very worst match ups against Fletchling, and yet they're still able to come out OK after the encounter. As for your first point, the main idea was that it could just u-turn out, giving your team full momentum and Mienfoo can later on force something out in order to heal back up. As for bulkyfoos not running HJK or Stone Edge, they typically have a free move slot and more and more players are opting to not choose fake out, so why not those options? Now a mienfoo without attack investment won't be able to OHKO with High Jump Kick, so I guess you'd basically have to use Stone Edge. If you're not using Fake Out, the choice is basically between Stone Edge and Acrobatics, depending on what you'd like to beat. As for the Croagunk thing, I'll give you it because even though it is possible, the spread is most likely largely inefficient. (196 Def / 188 SpA / 116 Spe with a Rash Nature is actually able to do it) Lastly, not only do these pokemon resist Stealth Rock and have Regenerator, but their main attacking moves in Giga Drain and Drain Punch prolong their life and keep them around with high amount of health while Fletchling has to rely on a 50/50 of the opposing pokemon not staying in while they roost. I'd just like to emphasis once again, these are the pokemon that you have have chosen with the very worst match ups against Fletchling, and it's possible for them to come out of the exchange in a way that benefits them. To bring this to the bigger picture, I think this effectively shows just how much Fletchling's low attack stat hinders it and how it's fairly easy to work around.
I think with the proper amount of intuition, you have a better chance of determining what Fletchling will do. I know they might seem like 50/50s, but if your opponent's win condition is Fletchling, then they might be more inclined to play with it conservatively and U-turn out rather than trying to grab a quick kill.
As my judgement and intuition playing this game have improved, I've been able to predict U-turn fairly consistently, if I keep my Mienfoo in on a U-turn, as reckless as it might sound, I'm able to take the wind out of their sail to an extent. I know I should not use good prediction as a point, but I do believe that as you grow more accustomed to handling the 50/50s this game springs on you, you can learn what the safest option is for your opponent and capitalize on that.
A 50/50 is still a 50/50. You may have become accustomed to enemy Fletchling's U-turning out but your opponent may see right through that. The thing that makes Fletch 50/50s so much more dangerous is because of its priority on acro, even if you win the 50/50 there is a strong chance that you are going to be taking some damage and possibly losing momentum.
Just throwing this out there as a little bit of a side note, but in the games that I have played today, I have seen a lot more Misdreavus's run Thunderbolt just to take out the bird since it is more convenient than running a spot just to check Fletchling.
ughhh, i'm so sad i can't vote on this. i was laddering trying to get the requirements taking my time. i didn't know when the last day was, i found out like the day before but i worked so much i wasn't able to get enough time in to finish up the last 400 points or so i needed. having said that as somebody who almost laddered all the way and would have if i had the free time, i think both deserve to stay. i will put my opinion that simply for now, i may expand later. but i don't think fletchling is a problem, same with misdreavus. misdreavus gets wrecked by the most common move in the tier, and fletchling is roughly equally as easy to take care of as t-flame in OU. not that much of an issue.
The problem with the "Fletchling Momentum Theory" is that it's prediction based. It needs a good prediction to work really well, and you still need to find a way around the large array of things that can switch into Acrobatics and shrug it off with recovery or put you under pressure. I doubt a prediction-based momentum gain should be an effect pushing Fletch towards a ban.
ughhh, i'm so sad i can't vote on this. i was laddering trying to get the requirements taking my time. i didn't know when the last day was, i found out like the day before but i worked so much i wasn't able to get enough time in to finish up the last 400 points or so i needed. having said that as somebody who almost laddered all the way and would have if i had the free time, i think both deserve to stay. i will put my opinion that simply for now, i may expand later. but i don't think fletchling is a problem, same with misdreavus. misdreavus gets wrecked by the most common move in the tier, and fletchling is roughly equally as easy to take care of as t-flame in OU. not that much of an issue.
If you are referring to Knock off as the common move that's wrecking Misdreavus than hear me out. Misdreavus can live a Knock Off from most Pokemon, especially Eviolite variants and nothing can get a knock off on Missy for free. With its great options, fighting types like Mienfoo, Timburr, scraggy get punished by Dazzling Gleam, physical attackers can be crippled by will-o-wisp, Misdreavus can use the knock off as an opportunity to wall break or sweep with Nasty Plot since it can live a Knock Off and has a great 19 speed letting it outspeed most Pokemon so it can continue doing damage without a worry that it has low HP with the exception of priority users an scarfers of course. The point I am making is Missy has the bulk to live a Knock Off from most Pokemon, and has the vast movepool where it can often do more damage back, killing of Knock Off users with its good coverage, setting up on the knock off user with Nasty Plot, and crippling the Pokemon with options such as will-o-wisp and Memento. I understand you wouldn't want to switch Misdreavus into a Knock Off but if it's against a Pokemon that knows Knock Off then it can take on if need be. Also keep in mind knock off users like Scarf Pawnaird can't risk directly switching into Misdreavus for the threat of Substitute, Will-o or Hp Fight so it has to wait for Missy to take out something or you predicting a double switch and if Missy Ko's something just so you can bring Pawnaird in safely then well Missy has already gotten a ko so it's doing damage despite your opponent packing Knock Off
Edit: do you mind elaborating on why you think Fletchling should stay? Saying its as easy to take care of as talonflame is kind of vague and it doesn't contribute to much to the discussion since some players (like myself) have no idea what talonflame is like in ou. They do have different typing and the tiers would be different in what checks they have available and so perhaps it's not a good comparison just because both get gale wings
Let me remind you all first. Most of this is only my opinion and what I see on both of them. Take it easy and don't be mean to me if you all think I'm wrong. :/
1.) A.
Is Misdreavus Broken?
Currently the highest BST on LC tier, Misdreavus often gets mistaken to be broken because that (even though it really is).
Three immunities (Normal, Fighting, and Ground), base 60 / 60 / 85 Bulk, above average special attack of base 85, and ties speed with Abra, Ponyta, Aipom, Staryu, and Taillow if run on max speed evs and timid nature. Those are only few remarkable things about Misdreavus.
Misdreavus can learn Will o' Wisp which is a common move that can be used mostly by ghost and fire types. Since Misdreavus is faster than most of its counters, it can use Will o' Wisp first before they land a OHKO attack like Knock Off. It can be use to fake Sucker Punch users, too. It can also break Focus Sash and Sturdy users. Moving on to the next, Shadow Ball is the most powerful STAB move Misdreavus can learn. Switching in a pokemon that doesn't resists nor is immune to this attack is fatal. Dazzling Gleam can be use on both annoying STAB Knock Off users (Pawniard is kinda an exemption.) or Fighting types that mostly has Knock Off/Crunch. Mostly used for Mienfoo, Scraggy, Zorua, Vullaby, and specially Timburr. Thunderbolt is a good move to use, too since it OHKOs frail Flying types like Taillow and Fletchling and some water types like Tirtouga. Nasty Plot doubles the Special Attack and Misdreavus can freely use it if there's no checks present or if it holds Eviolite.
If Misdreavus were to be ban on LC, there will be fewer selections left for picking ghost pokemon. (Gastly, Golett, Frillish, Duskull, and Honedge.)
Some Pokemon will be free on Misdreavus' check (Mostly Psychic types).
Even though I use Misdreavus on my team, I'll vote Misdreavus to be ban on LC since Misdreavus is broken because of its capabilities I presented earlier.
Pokes that will be affected once Misdreavus is gone on LC:
Abra, Slowpoke, Frillish, Gastly, Golett, Honedge, Houndoor, Pawniard, Scraggy, Stunky, Vullaby, Zorua, Aipom, Buneary, Doduo, Fletchling, Lickitung, Porygon, Taillow, and Zigzagoon.
B.
Is Fletchling broken?
Fletchling is almost broken because it can sweep a team that doesn't have a pokemon that resists Flying type.
Once Fletchling sets at least one Swords Dance and doesn't held any items, it becomes broken.
So, Fletchling is okay if it's not using Swords Dance. Therefore, I propose not to ban Fletchling on LC but if it may, ban the usage of Swords Dance on Fletchling(even though this suspect test isn't about it). Fletchling has a role on LC and that is, to regulate ChloroDrought users so it needs to stay.
2. A.
Is Misdreavus making Little Cup not fun?
Yes. The Fast Bulky Poke that can use Will o Wisp to hinder Physical user is kinda cheap. It reminds me of Thunder Wave Krow.
B.
Is Fletchling making Little Cup not fun?
At some point, Yes. But most of the time, No. When you're helpless when you got caught off guard on some sets. (You thought it has Berry Juice but it has Focus Sash or Vice Versa) and then sets up then use a +1 Priority Stab 110 BP +2 Physical Attack.
3. Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
Of course not. Both of them is not that menacing as Tangela's super bulk or Murkrow's Prankster Ability. But if Flying Gem were to be released on gen 6, I think it will deter players on playing Little Cup. (lol)
(Please correct me if I did something wrong. My english speaking skill is not fluent to begin with.) :P
Let me remind you all first. Most of this is only my opinion and what I see on both of them. Take it easy and don't be mean to me if you all think I'm wrong. :/
1.) A.
Is Misdreavus Broken?
Currently the highest BST on LC tier, Misdreavus often gets mistaken to be broken because that (even though it really is).
Three immunities (Normal, Fighting, and Ground), base 60 / 60 / 85 Bulk, above average special attack of base 85, and ties speed with Abra, Ponyta, Aipom, Staryu, and Taillow if run on max speed evs and timid nature. Those are only few remarkable things about Misdreavus.
Misdreavus can learn Will o' Wisp which is a common move that can be used mostly by ghost and fire types. Since Misdreavus is faster than most of its counters, it can use Will o' Wisp first before they land a OHKO attack like Knock Off. It can be use to fake Sucker Punch users, too. It can also break Focus Sash and Sturdy users. Moving on to the next, Shadow Ball is the most powerful STAB move Misdreavus can learn. Switching in a pokemon that doesn't resists nor is immune to this attack is fatal. Dazzling Gleam can be use on both annoying STAB Knock Off users (Pawniard is kinda an exemption.) or Fighting types that mostly has Knock Off/Crunch. Mostly used for Mienfoo, Scraggy, Zorua, Vullaby, and specially Timburr. Thunderbolt is a good move to use, too since it OHKOs frail Flying types like Taillow and Fletchling and some water types like Tirtouga. Nasty Plot doubles the Special Attack and Misdreavus can freely use it if there's no checks present or if it holds Eviolite.
If Misdreavus were to be ban on LC, there will be fewer selections left for picking ghost pokemon. (Gastly, Golett, Frillish, Duskull, and Honedge.)
Some Pokemon will be free on Misdreavus' check (Mostly Psychic types).
Even though I use Misdreavus on my team, I'll vote Misdreavus to be ban on LC since Misdreavus is broken because of its capabilities I presented earlier.
Pokes that will be affected once Misdreavus is gone on LC:
Abra, Slowpoke, Frillish, Gastly, Golett, Honedge, Houndoor, Pawniard, Scraggy, Stunky, Vullaby, Zorua, Aipom, Buneary, Doduo, Fletchling, Lickitung, Porygon, Taillow, and Zigzagoon.
B.
Is Fletchling broken?
Fletchling is almost broken because it can sweep a team that doesn't have a pokemon that resists Flying type.
Once Fletchling sets at least one Swords Dance and doesn't held any items, it becomes broken.
So, Fletchling is okay if it's not using Swords Dance. Therefore, I propose not to ban Fletchling on LC but if it may, ban the usage of Swords Dance on Fletchling(even though this suspect test isn't about it). Fletchling has a role on LC and that is, to regulate ChloroDrought users so it needs to stay.
2. A.
Is Misdreavus making Little Cup not fun?
Yes. The Fast Bulky Poke that can use Will o Wisp to hinder Physical user is kinda cheap. It reminds me of Thunder Wave Krow.
B.
Is Fletchling making Little Cup not fun?
At some point, Yes. But most of the time, No. When you're helpless when you got caught off guard on some sets. (You thought it has Berry Juice but it has Focus Sash or Vice Versa) and then sets up then use a +1 Priority Stab 110 BP +2 Physical Attack.
3. Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
Of course not. Both of them is not that menacing as Tangela's super bulk or Murkrow's Prankster Ability. But if Flying Gem were to be released on gen 6, I think it will deter players on playing Little Cup. (lol)
(Please correct me if I did something wrong. My english speaking skill is not fluent to begin with.) :P
If your team doesn't have a flying resist, I'm sorry, but it probably isn't a good team. Flying resists are plentiful in LC, meaning a wide range of already viable Mons can check Fletchling. The calcs you have shown do little to illustrate Fletch being broken at +2, because all the Mons you listed were either weak to flying, frail, or not running optimal sets. Fletchling is not really broken at +2, because there are a lot of mons, that we've discussed a ton (Chinchou, Tirtouga, Magnemite, Archen, etc) that can easily take a hit at +2 and KO back. It's definitely strong, but it needs its checks to be worn down, so it can't really sweep teams off the get-go. Of course Fletchling can run through a team that has no resists at +2, any good cleaner or sweeper can do that. Very sorry if this sounds harsh, it wasn't meant to be like that. It's hard to convey tone on the internet. :]
If your team doesn't have a flying resist, I'm sorry, but it probably isn't a good team. Flying resists are plentiful in LC, meaning a wide range of already viable Mons can check Fletchling. The calcs you have shown do little to illustrate Fletch being broken at +2, because all the Mons you listed were either weak to flying, frail, or not running optimal sets. Fletchling is not really broken at +2, because there are a lot of mons, that we've discussed a ton (Chinchou, Tirtouga, Magnemite, Archen, etc) that can easily take a hit at +2 and KO back. Of course Fletchling can sweep a team that has no resists at +2, any good cleaner or sweeper can do that. Very sorry if this sounds harsh, it wasn't meant to be like that. It's hard to convey tone on the internet. :]
So yes, I must agree. Although without proper checks Fletchling can be DANGEROUS and can easily sweep a team at +2. The thing is, that the amount of checks (lightning types lol) that counter fletchling is quite big. Although, if one were to run U-turn that would be different. Being able to still do damage at +2, while still being safe and taking a chunk of damage off the Pokemon that was probably checking Fletchling? I don't support a ban for Fletchling though. The evidence supported for banning is outweighed by the evidence supported for not banning.
Sorry for double posting, but I forgot to include my thoughts on Misdreavus. Whelp, this Pokemon is strong, being able to cripple offensive threats with Willowisp. However, the fact that one can predict the WilloWisp, and can switch out into a Special Pokemon cannot be overlooked. When I see a Misdreavus what do I think first? I think oh derp, Willo time, then I would switch into some Special Attacker. Also, when I was playing my many games on the lc suspect ladder (horrible process almost committed Pokecide) I saw that many Pokemon carried Knock Off, and counters to Misdreavus. I believe that Knock Off many Pokemon should carry with or without Misdreavus, but then again to specifically counter Misdreavus isn't right either. I'm somewhat in the middle of Misdreavus. I'm leaning towards banning Misdreavus, but ya never know.
First of all, I'll always prefer a one-by-one suspect too. I think that's could be a more careful way to do that. I was quite surprised when I saw which have been nominated for this suspect, too. I believe could be a possibility to see only either. But it's always ok for me, when dudes are choosing something, it's unquestionable and right for me.
Well, we are talking about two s-rank like Misdreavus and Fletching (others are Mienfoo and Pawniard). I want to start with Misdreavus and I'll talk about Fletching in another topic as soon as possible.
"Screech Pokémon" is a marvellous pokemon, just in BW LC he had a good usage. Versatile with many great sets, good stats, reaching 19 speed with Timid nature. I have just find the same his BW features, except for stop-spinning. But only because rapid spin has to stand new Defogger. Even his mono-typing is useful because this restict his weakness, I think.
Movepool? Very good, really what you can wish with his excellent stat. NastyPlot boost very well his SAtk, then STAB ShadowBall but also Thunderbolt, WoW, Taunt, Thunder Wave, Trick (I'm sure, are in the tops his various Trick Scarf sets, i like also his SubNastyPlot), Thief that could be a solution in a metagame not more "only mono-item" with eviolite and on 6th gen Dazzling Gleam, a real opportunity to fix and destroy fighting 'mons, unlikely you can find an LC team without a Timbur, a Mienfoo or a Sgraggy. By the way, Dazzling Gleam has supplanted HP Fighting (Dazzling Gleam 62.582% vs Hidden Power Fighting 23.959%), so in regard when we have to consider and loooking a scenario with these moves.
But with some credits to others which wrote here before me, he has some counter (main is Houndour), some checkers, not enough form of recovery, Thief mention above could be another way to do thatbut it's quite uncommon.
He's centralizing for the tier. Of course. His usage is high, but because he's simply a S-rank LC pokemon, because is useful to use that. Not because if you should use that, you have a easy win and gg. He's not a Tangela with sunshine or not (who could win the match by oneself) or Meditite which was probably carring on right move for each pokemon you lie ahead. He's not a Swirlix, which boosted and without brakes, is vanishing your opponent team.
Knock Off
Power 65
Accuracy 100%
PP 32 1.5x damage if foe holds an item. Removes item
Many of them and more than one (in bolt, I included also Abra above all for his focus sash shadow ball), always are in our teams. I personally I'm always going to use some mixed set (for example for Croagunk) only to have chance to could use this move. Because it's always useful, not to be safe vs Misdreavus. So, it's so difficult to do a clean nasty plot for him and usually the scenario is take Misdreavus down with a second pokemon (he has just lost his eviolite, Choice Scarf / Specs, BJ). I don't want to repeat the same Hawksta words but i want to highlight which I think it's indisputable...
Misdreavus remain a top pokemon to use (quite 1/2 teams are with a Misdreavus) but Knock off (stronger than in 5 gen) is anywhere (and there is also Sucker Punch and Pursit to bear in mind, by the Pursuit is letal for him). So he's first in usage, but some revenge killers there are too. Strong. But not broken.
Many posts in this thread have helped me to form more of an opinion on fletchling, it's a good discussion. What I've decided is that fletchling isn't really that OP. It's good, sure, but it can't break through its counters as easily as people have said. However, it is really centralising and limits the use of many Pokemon such as scraggy, bellsprout and more. I wouldn't say this is necessarily a bad thing though because those Pokemon are still viable. As I've said before, I've barely ever swept a team with fletchling unless I've used diglett support, and to be honest the core of those two Pokemon does really limit team building, which is a difficult problem because I don't feel like I can justify banning fletchling because I don't think it's broken without diglett.
Fleth+Dig is not really that big of a problem. Archen can beat the core and can set up rocks which both of them hate. Scarf Chinchou can force Flecthling out and can double scald the diglett switch in. My main problem is that fletch is just too one dimensional and honestly not nearly on par with other LC Uber Pokemon.
Fleth+Dig is not really that big of a problem. Archen can beat the core and can set up rocks which both of them hate. Scarf Chinchou can force Flecthling out and can double scald the diglett switch in. My main problem is that fletch is just too one dimensional and honestly not nearly on par with other LC Uber Pokemon.
To deal with fletchdig, you have to run archen or defensive tirtouga. If you're relying on scarfchou or another flying-resist scarfer, you need to get one layer of hazards up, which isn't the most reliable method.
soakchou is great too, beats the core. Also look at anything just decently physically bulky (Slowpoke)
I'd see pokemon as broken if you were forced to adjust to them and they were still great (check out meditite or krow) rather than you being forced to deal with threats. It's natural that there are some pokemon stronger than others in a metagame, and you having to deal with them. FletchDig is basically two pokemon for a single one-dimensional strategy. Please don't overhype the FletchDig core and say that only Defensive tirt or archen are the only ways of delaing with it. It has a weakness against the rising sweepers (omanyte particularly) and there are still other, not as reliable ways of dealing with it (Porygon). tbh if you look at Mienfoo Trubbish would be the only thing that could really stop it 100%, something kinda rare nowadays. Would that put Mienfoo higher on the broken scale than Fletch?. Also take into consideration how risky fletchling it is, due to its weakness to SR and lack of longevity. Of course with the offensive nature of LC it's not that risky, but imagine playing Fletch against a legit stall build now, where there would be at least one reliable check, Fletch would be easily worn down.
This case can be the same for Misdreavus as well, only one thing truly deals with it 100% (Lickitung), but there are multiple checks. Some of the best offensive options against misdreavus (timburr for HP fight variants, Pursuit Pawn for Dgleam, and to an extent Carvanha) are actually getting used less now, which seems dumb to me.
There are a lot of things you can do against Missy on different styles of teams. You could run more power on your revenge killer (think Scarf Pawn or maybe Scarf Taillow/Doduo over your usual Abra/Fletch) to revenge weakened missy. You could also just run a pivot like Porygon and back yourself up with those revenge killers. You could also just start playing more defensive, maybe run that Lickitung or Chespin if you really need to.
Misdreavus is really the easiest pokemon ever to look at as broken on paper, then you look at the fact that it has no options to deal with more powerful revenge killers, especially when they have Knock Off (not only, especially). People here keep assuming it is +2 at like all times. Not only is it always +2, but it finds a way to have NP and Dbond on the same set (I dunt understand how that even works without giving up something legit). If Misdreavus sets up a Nasty plot, it's either because you fucked up somewhere or it has taken about 50%, and by that point most of the common revenge killers can dispose of Misdreavus.
Also a complete side thing that doesn't really mean much, but Misdreavus seems to get less and less broken the higher skill people are playing. When you look at 1100 elo NP Missy would just 6-0 teams without giving a damn, but in higher skilled matches you deal with legit meta pokemon, which actually all have their own ways of dealing with Misdreavus, or at least stopping it from setting up with ease.
If you are referring to Knock off as the common move that's wrecking Misdreavus than hear me out. Misdreavus can live a Knock Off from most Pokemon, especially Eviolite variants and nothing can get a knock off on Missy for free. With its great options, fighting types like Mienfoo, Timburr, scraggy get punished by Dazzling Gleam, physical attackers can be crippled by will-o-wisp, Misdreavus can use the knock off as an opportunity to wall break or sweep with Nasty Plot since it can live a Knock Off and has a great 19 speed letting it outspeed most Pokemon so it can continue doing damage without a worry that it has low HP with the exception of priority users an scarfers of course. The point I am making is Missy has the bulk to live a Knock Off from most Pokemon, and has the vast movepool where it can often do more damage back, killing of Knock Off users with its good coverage, setting up on the knock off user with Nasty Plot, and crippling the Pokemon with options such as will-o-wisp and Memento. I understand you wouldn't want to switch Misdreavus into a Knock Off but if it's against a Pokemon that knows Knock Off then it can take on if need be. Also keep in mind knock off users like Scarf Pawnaird can't risk directly switching into Misdreavus for the threat of Substitute, Will-o or Hp Fight so it has to wait for Missy to take out something or you predicting a double switch and if Missy Ko's something just so you can bring Pawnaird in safely then well Missy has already gotten a ko so it's doing damage despite your opponent packing Knock Off
i mean, all that is true, but i would argue the S-rank pokemon in LC have a good relationship going. let's take mienfoo as an example. mienfoo often runs fake out, knock off, u-turn, HJK/Drain Punch. misdreavus can burn it, it can hit it with dazzling gleam, it can predict a switch and set up a NP or a sub. it has a lot of options. but if mienfoo is in first, it's a game of prediction. does he use one of his normal/fighting moves (or his weak bug-move), or will i get punished for sending in missy? and if you do predict wrong, missy is in a terrible spot. missy also doesn't have the safe switch into someone that it actually checks. worst case is that it loses its item and takes a butt-load of damage, decreasing chances to set up a sub, NP, or u-turn gives mienfoo the momentum. scarf pawniard is similar, it *can* switch in but it's risky. sometimes you just have to make sacrifices in order to get safe switches in pokemon (even against bad pokemon), so i personally don't see that as a reason its broken. yes the typical eviolite set can usually live one non-stab knock off, but it's pretty much neutered after that.
besides, missy being around to check physical attackers and in particular fighting types, imo, is important in this tier. they run rampant. i'm not saying missy is the only one, but certainly the best. she fills a role that i personally find to be important and useful to the meta. without missy it will be even harder to deal with threats that are perhaps just as absurd.
Edit: do you mind elaborating on why you think Fletchling should stay? Saying its as easy to take care of as talonflame is kind of vague and it doesn't contribute to much to the discussion since some players (like myself) have no idea what talonflame is like in ou. They do have different typing and the tiers would be different in what checks they have available and so perhaps it's not a good comparison just because both get gale wings
ah, i'm sorry about that. granted, its flying normal type does change a few things, i can't take that away. also acrobatics being primary stab over BB. but residual damage is a good example of fletchling's enemy. SR, sand, iron barbs, rocky helmet. on top of that, mostly any steel, rock, or electric type can come in and ohko, as it's really frail. same with anything bulky enough to take the acro, or anything that's sash'd. switching out you risk the SD, which if that has the ability to finish off your entire team, then you really only have one choice, don't you? sac, and hope they SD and you get a free OHKO. if not, you sac and get a safe switch into a check. you prevent SD, and come in with a check. it can u-turn out? luckily the main fletchling set isn't even fast (hits 12 speed i think), and it will take a buttload of damage before leaving. if it hard switches you just save your check. fletchling can sweep teams with an SD, so can talonflame, but it's not busted because you can limit its switch-ins with hazards and force it out easily.
I do just want to say real quick that Fletchling was only A+ on the Viability Rankings a short time ago. I know I'm not saying really mindblowing here, but don't you guys think that some of you might be overhyping it a hair? If really is banworthy, it probably wouldn't have been in A+ for just about the entire meta.
I do just want to say real quick that Fletchling was only A+ on the Viability Rankings a short time ago. I know I'm not saying really mindblowing here, but don't you guys think that some of you might be overhyping it a hair? If really is banworthy, it probably wouldn't have been in A+ for just about the entire meta.
just as in ubers, the viability ranking of a mon does not necessarily represent its impact on the metagame, it's just a way of telling players what's generally better and what generally isn't in the metagame. for example, in the ubers viability rankings goth isn't even S and is being claimed more broken than mega gengar. also the fact that it's S now is all that matters. Whether it be overcentralization or metagame shifts, what's now is what matters. most other suspected mons had to be moved up to S after awhile because it took awhile for us to either post or realize how truly dangerous they are.
people had gligar and murkrow to abuse up to this point, and for good reason, so fletch didn't get any room to shine. if anything, it was just a priority novelty on top of glig / krow for attacking bird due to how strong their combination of power, typing, and movepool was. it was simply overshadowed. this sort of stuff happens all the time and is why we have multiple suspect test throughout the formation of a tier. a pokemon's ability or inability to perform in a previous metagame, for example fletch not being s rank previously, has no bearing on the current one when it comes to tiering.
I do just want to say real quick that Fletchling was only A+ on the Viability Rankings a short time ago. I know I'm not saying really mindblowing here, but don't you guys think that some of you might be overhyping it a hair? If really is banworthy, it probably wouldn't have been in A+ for just about the entire meta.
I just wanted to post my current opinion of Misdreavus and see if anyone disagreed or could bring up another point about it since the discussion seems to have died down a bit and I'm honestly still pretty on the fence about it. People often say that Misdreavus is easy to prove broken in theory but in actuality is easy to deal with. I think this is largely because of the plethora of priority moves in the tier and the fact that Misdreavus often fails to OHKO many pokemon, even after a Nasty Plot. There are also quite a few common scarfers that carry moves that severely dent Misdreavus and can put a stop to it's sweep or even KO it after the prior damage it has taken while setting up. There are no true counters to it, but many common pokemon have ways to deal with it. Just hoping someone could help me make up my mind basically and maybe respond to this if I've said anything wrong or if they have any other reasons for it being broken.
