pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
OK. But again, why is it being pushed back? "I feel like it" is a perfectly acceptable answer btw imo
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np: XY UU Stage 2 - Light Em Up
- Thread starter kokoloko
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Jacks0n
formerly grassycow
can we please keep it back till toge drops, then it will be a hell lot less viable.
If Toge drops within its cycle otherwise they aren't exactly going to postpone a suspect test on account for a potential drop down as that is very biased. You could ask for a suspect test again on the new cycle when Toge has dropped, assuming Zygarde doesn't have such an overwhelming vote for BL.
I May be a little late but i think Magneszone deserve another test to comeback in uu, when it was tested when the days blissey, goodra and infernape was not in uu, magneszone was a little to good in uu back in the day, but now the meta kinda changed with new drops, blissey and goodra can easily wall it, infernape can revenge kill it with flare blitz, and heck alakazham can destroy magneszone too which makes it better and lucario can take out magneszone if magneszone carries specs, also with haxorus dropping in i can see magneszone chillin in uu
Here some nifty calcs which will help
252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 294-346 (104.6 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 114-135 (15.9 - 18.9%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 186-220 (26 - 30.8%) -- 5.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 132-156 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 61-73 (15.8 - 19%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 256-302 (91.1 - 107.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 156-187 (55.5 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Here Some more notes that pokemon that either counter, check, etc in the uu metagame (my thoughts)
Pokes that can counter mag great: blissey, snorlax, goodra, rotom-heat and mega ampharos
Pokes that can check mag great: infernape, alakazham, most fire types, escavalier, nidoking, nidoqueen, hippo, most fighting types, mega dactyl, dugtrio, hydreigon, haxorus
Pokes that can't check or counter mag but mag can't switch into them : mega absol, mega blastoise, metagross, roserade, machamp.
I Could go on but i like to see a 2nd test on the magneszone thanks to the drops so I hope i see another test on magneszone soon :)
Here some nifty calcs which will help
252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 294-346 (104.6 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 114-135 (15.9 - 18.9%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 186-220 (26 - 30.8%) -- 5.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 132-156 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 61-73 (15.8 - 19%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 256-302 (91.1 - 107.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 156-187 (55.5 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Here Some more notes that pokemon that either counter, check, etc in the uu metagame (my thoughts)
Pokes that can counter mag great: blissey, snorlax, goodra, rotom-heat and mega ampharos
Pokes that can check mag great: infernape, alakazham, most fire types, escavalier, nidoking, nidoqueen, hippo, most fighting types, mega dactyl, dugtrio, hydreigon, haxorus
Pokes that can't check or counter mag but mag can't switch into them : mega absol, mega blastoise, metagross, roserade, machamp.
I Could go on but i like to see a 2nd test on the magneszone thanks to the drops so I hope i see another test on magneszone soon :)
Roseybear I agree with you that the meta has changed to a point that it could be possible to bring Magnezone down to UU. However, giving a list of calcs and a check/counter list isn't the best way to approach Magnezone imo. First I think that Magnezone's counters are few and far between, because Magnezone isn't used plainly as a wallbreaker, its job is to also offer utility with Volt Switch, and that is almost more important than the fact it hits damn hard. Let's take a common scenario, where a Blissey would switch-in against Magnezone.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 189-223 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- 15.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
If you count in SR + Leftovers, you get 32% damage minimum every time Blissey switches in on you. That means that a 3rd of Blissey's health is drained if it switches against you as you VSwitch. In fact, with an additional Spikes layer, Blissey can't switch-in on you again, as she then gets 2HKOed by Thunderbolt. If Magnezone were to come down to UU, it would be a pretty big deal for stall, and a nightmare for balance, as there are only a few ways to reliably counter Magnezone (unless you turn yourself from herecy and use our lord Stunfisk). In fact, given your list of "counters" for Magnezone, it wouldn't be hard to build a team around Magnezone that could easily take advantage of each of those mons. Just add a Haxorus to the team and Magnezone can carry on making holes to opponent's team. Ofc you can check Magnezone easily, almost all offensive Pokemon carry either a Fire, Fighting or Ground-move, but the question is, how much damage has Magnezone caused before you can safely bring your offensive check in in? Most likely Magnezone has done its job at that point. Also, Magnezone has a respectable physical bulk, in addition to awesome defensive typing, so you actually need to use the moves of those types if you ever wish to bring Magnezone down. Now I'm not saying Magnezone couldn't come back to UU, because as it was touched upon, Magnezone is hard pressed to find opportunities to come in against offensively inclined teams, and also, due to it being a bit prediction heavy, Magnezone can be a bit hard to use if there are Ground-types in opponents team. What I am saying however, is that it's not "obvious" that the new tier drops have modified the metagame in a way that makes Magnezone a clear UU 'mon.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 189-223 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- 15.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
If you count in SR + Leftovers, you get 32% damage minimum every time Blissey switches in on you. That means that a 3rd of Blissey's health is drained if it switches against you as you VSwitch. In fact, with an additional Spikes layer, Blissey can't switch-in on you again, as she then gets 2HKOed by Thunderbolt. If Magnezone were to come down to UU, it would be a pretty big deal for stall, and a nightmare for balance, as there are only a few ways to reliably counter Magnezone (
Guys I think it would be best to save the magnezone discussion for if/when it's actually retested.
In my experience with volcarona a I've found a couple reasons why I think it has a largely negative impact on the metagame, regardless of whether or not it's strictly "broken."
First, though there are a few pokes that easily shut down a volcarona sweep (mega aero, infernape, rock slide goodra, blissey, fletchinder) a metagame that includes volc quite literally forces you to have one of those pokes on your team. Otherwise you might as well forfeit as soon as you see it on the other team. Outspeeding (via mienshao or other scarfers) it is not always a reliable check because +2 is a thing, nor is priority (outside of gale wings) nor is stealth rock because it's never been easier to keep hazards off the field. Basically if you have a healthy team of 6 Pokemon but none of them are a direct counter/check to volc, you lose. To me, this takes the metagame away from the ideal balanced one we want to create.
Second, Volcarona + Dugtrio. Half of Volc's checks/counters are eliminated by this thing, further increasing it's sweep potential to potentially broken levels.
Third, hidden power. Once volc users catch on the the benefits of utilizing hidden powers to round out Volc's coverage (I think koko pointed out hp water's utility) it will only get more difficult to shut this thing down.
To summarize:
1) If you don't have a poke dedicated to shutting down volc (and it's healthy) your chance of beating it is minimal.
2) Volc = good, vol + using it intelligently = hindrance on the metagame.
Feel free to disagree with me and I will do my best to respond to counter arguments.
Also I apologize for any spelling mistakes because I'm on my phone and autocorrect is horrible.
In my experience with volcarona a I've found a couple reasons why I think it has a largely negative impact on the metagame, regardless of whether or not it's strictly "broken."
First, though there are a few pokes that easily shut down a volcarona sweep (mega aero, infernape, rock slide goodra, blissey, fletchinder) a metagame that includes volc quite literally forces you to have one of those pokes on your team. Otherwise you might as well forfeit as soon as you see it on the other team. Outspeeding (via mienshao or other scarfers) it is not always a reliable check because +2 is a thing, nor is priority (outside of gale wings) nor is stealth rock because it's never been easier to keep hazards off the field. Basically if you have a healthy team of 6 Pokemon but none of them are a direct counter/check to volc, you lose. To me, this takes the metagame away from the ideal balanced one we want to create.
Second, Volcarona + Dugtrio. Half of Volc's checks/counters are eliminated by this thing, further increasing it's sweep potential to potentially broken levels.
Third, hidden power. Once volc users catch on the the benefits of utilizing hidden powers to round out Volc's coverage (I think koko pointed out hp water's utility) it will only get more difficult to shut this thing down.
To summarize:
1) If you don't have a poke dedicated to shutting down volc (and it's healthy) your chance of beating it is minimal.
2) Volc = good, vol + using it intelligently = hindrance on the metagame.
Feel free to disagree with me and I will do my best to respond to counter arguments.
Also I apologize for any spelling mistakes because I'm on my phone and autocorrect is horrible.
Having to Run duggy in order to make Volc do a lot of work works kind of like Keld + Pursuit TTAR of 5th gen OU. I personally don't think having to run two specific pokes to "beat" teams is means for a broken pokemon. With that, all teams would eventually consolidate to one or two variations of each other, much like Denis' baton pass team.
Seeing Volc if you lack Blissey, Goodra, flect, etc does not mean you auto lose. That's like saying if you lack a strong fairy or ice poke you should just forfeit to Haxarous. Volc only has a few sets, and all require QD. Figuring out if the last move is roost, Giga Drain, or HP is the hardest part. With things like Snorlax and the likes that exist, I don't see why Volc is too unmanageable. It isn't something like Infernape, where Nape can run Grass knot to beat Water/Ground types and Fire Blast to beat things like Mega Aggron.
Volc can do things quite well, but actually setting up is difficult. Removing hazards is easy, but setting it up is just as easy. There are so many good setters this gen in UU, namely forry, pert, hippo, etc, so it isn't too difficult to keep Volc in check. In addition, things like SD Luc can beat it with Espeed with rocks, and most Volcs are either Bulky QD or modest, so things like Scarf Victini, Darm, or Flygon can still beat it.
Seeing Volc if you lack Blissey, Goodra, flect, etc does not mean you auto lose. That's like saying if you lack a strong fairy or ice poke you should just forfeit to Haxarous. Volc only has a few sets, and all require QD. Figuring out if the last move is roost, Giga Drain, or HP is the hardest part. With things like Snorlax and the likes that exist, I don't see why Volc is too unmanageable. It isn't something like Infernape, where Nape can run Grass knot to beat Water/Ground types and Fire Blast to beat things like Mega Aggron.
Volc can do things quite well, but actually setting up is difficult. Removing hazards is easy, but setting it up is just as easy. There are so many good setters this gen in UU, namely forry, pert, hippo, etc, so it isn't too difficult to keep Volc in check. In addition, things like SD Luc can beat it with Espeed with rocks, and most Volcs are either Bulky QD or modest, so things like Scarf Victini, Darm, or Flygon can still beat it.
IMO Volcarona pigeonholes stall into running Blissey (Yes, I know Blissey is good, but I'm trying to run some unconventional stall). It limits it's checks to purely offense and has the coverage to decimate teams. Personally, I think it's pretty unhealthy for the current UU meta as you pretty much have no room for error on Stall vs Volc and you are forced into running an offensive check.
Sorry for the short post/spelling in on my phone lol
Sorry for the short post/spelling in on my phone lol
I'll try to respond to your points in the order you said them.
I never implied that volcarona needs dugtrio support, it only enhances volc's sweeping abilities
Haxorus (assuming we're talking about a set up sweeping set since we're comparing it to volc) is easily checked by practically all scarfers and fairies. Even if you let it get to +1 speed, it can't rampage through teams the same way volc can as it has no recovery, no immunity to priority status and worse defenses. Thus it gets worn down fairly easily. Haxorus also has only a fraction of the set up opportunities that volc has so I don't really think it's fair to compare the two as sweepers. Stopping a full health Haxorus after a DD is simply easier than stopping a full health volc after a QD.
Yes, things like snorlax exist and they do make volc manageable, but many of volc's counters/checks have low viability outside of stopping volc and probably should not be used while laddering. Thus, teambuilding becomes constrained.
Volc actually has a lot of set up opportunities dude and just out of UU's A and S viability ranks it can potentially set up on:
Slowbro
Hydreigon
Heracross (assuming not locked into stone edge)
Lucario
Mew
Alomomola
Aromatisse
Mega Aggron
Mega Ampharos
Forretress
Jirachi
Roserade
Shaymin
All it needs is one QD and it can tear through teams that don't have dedicated check/counters
Scarf Victini does not beat bulky volc 1v1.
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcarona: 231-273 (61.7 - 72.9%) -- 2HKO
After a roost and a quiver:
+1 0 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. -2 0 HP / 4 SpD Victini: 376-444 (110.2 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Scarf flygon also does not beat any volc set 1v1 once it's at +1.
252 Atk Flygon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcarona: 154-183 (41.1 - 48.9%) -- 3HKO Scarf Flygon can't even knock out bulky set
252 Atk Flygon Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 232-274 (74.5 - 88.1%)
+1 252+ SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Flygon: 297-351 (98.6 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (KO's even without life orb)
Darm is OHKO'd by Timid +1 HP water.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Hidden Power Water vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darmanitan: 421-497 (119.9 - 141.5%)
These are shaky checks to Volc, proving how hard it is to stop this thing.
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Listing Lucario and Jirachi as stuff that Volcarona can set up on is a bold claim. If you're Offensive, Lucario 2HKOs with CC, ESpeed, and Crunch (or a clean KO with Rocks on the field). Defensive takes at least 60% between Close Combat and Extreme Speed, while you're easily revenged at +1, unless you keep going for boosts, in which case Lucario can keep sniping you with Extreme Speed. Jirachi makes a little more sense, but if they're running speed it's a small challenge to fish for Body Slam hax or just slap you with Thunder Wave.
Admittedly, both of these Pokemon are risking a LOT by staying in, but a +1 Volcarona from a Fiery Dance boost is infinitely less scary than a +1/+1/+1 Volcarona after a Quiver Dance.
Admittedly, both of these Pokemon are risking a LOT by staying in, but a +1 Volcarona from a Fiery Dance boost is infinitely less scary than a +1/+1/+1 Volcarona after a Quiver Dance.
I listed luc because there's rarely reason for it to stay in against volc. Even If you want to predict the QD and Close Combat, you have to assume its non bulky volc for this play to make any sense at all. On top of that Luc risks the flame body burn. So basically to stay in against Volc you risk getting outsped and ohkoed, risk doing less than roost damage to a bulky volc that boosts in your face and risk getting burned in the process. You could SD and then Espeed but then you risk losing Luc for absolutely nothing on top of all that. Thus I think it's reasonable to list Luc as something Volcarona can at least potentially set up on.
If Jirachi is running body slam/t-wave then ya Volc shouldn't try to set up on it but otherwise Jirachi can't do much to stop it. Jirachi is definitely a possible set-up fodder for volc.
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Unaware Swoobat with Psych Up is even better
Affirmative; Volca should go back to BL. While it does have some counters in Fletchinder and Blissey, the fact remains that it utterly destroys anything that isn't a special wall; heck I've even taken on the occasional Goodra with it. Much like Moth, find the right mon to set up on and it's pretty much GG from there. I will enjoy using it until it gets re-banned.
Though arguably if Heracross gets burned by Flame Body on the switch, you're going to have a problem.
Just musing over the idea. :)
I'm not really too sure h
Well, you have to keep in mind that kokoloko let the new drops stay around and voted on thr new drops wbich included alakazam, alakazite, goodra, blissey, lucario and volcarona. Volc and alakazite were the only things deemed potentially broken. Now volc is being tested by itself. All the pokes, items or abilities that were banned are most likely going to be tested and possibly retested later on. Kokolokos idea was to estaish a metagame free of potentially broken pokes and slowly reintroduce them back.
So, volc can end up being uu or back to bl where it can be tested again down the road...
What i was saying was that people were more focused on th. Mega zam destroying through the tier and blissey walling a bunch of stuff. Some people did express their concerns going back to whn the drops happened and volc was deemed potentially broken. So, the normal checks and counters are still there, but.people can focus on it alone since its the only mon getting tested. So, thats why youre seeing more people talking about its potential brokeness...
GULLY the votes on Volc last time were actually quite divided, with 7 council members voting BL and 5 voting UU. So it has been one of our more controversial bans so far.
And why has no one mentioned Hurricane on this thing yet? It gets some pretty nice strong neutral coverage over a lot of other Pokemon in the tier which it's STABs fail to hit.
Also with Volc, don't forget that 135 SpAtk isn't that bad to begin with without a boost, and can still threaten quite a lot of switch-ins if they try and predict a Quiver Dance. This is sort of like Haxorus who also did not have to go for a DD and just smack a Pokemon with its already high attack. But the difference between Haxorus and Volc, is that Haxorus got threatened by most Pokemon, as with its poor bulk and a set of resistances which aren't all too helpful in this tier, meaning it could be 2HKOed or incredibly close to a 2HKO by most Pokemon. This way in order to prevent getting hammered on the switch but also not let it setup you would simply keep your Pokemon that you had in play and attack it so it cannot sweep. Volc on the other hand has enough Special Bulk and useful resistance AND reliable recovery that allows it to boost on a range of Pokemon and easily get to +2 or +3 or higher, whereas Haxorus generally struggled to get there. Florges, Aromatisse, Blissey not carrying Toxic or T-Wave, it can even setup on Slowbro if it really wants to:
4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 114-134 (36.5 - 42.9%) -- 97.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 123-145 (39.4 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
and at the same time, you might want to be hesitant to send in your Mienshao to stop it before it gets to +2 in case you get onto the wrong end of one of these:
252+ SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mienshao: 306-360 (112.9 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Its ability to force these situations makes Volc especially threatening. Do I sack my Pokemon at the moment to get off some damage and risk some nasty setup, or switch in my Scarfer and risk the hit?
Not to mention as a last little point in Volc's favour it can screw over some Physical attackers with Flame Body, where if they do get burned it can boost further.
And BTW, a Bulky Chesto Resto set will reliably beat Blissey, if that is your counter.
And why has no one mentioned Hurricane on this thing yet? It gets some pretty nice strong neutral coverage over a lot of other Pokemon in the tier which it's STABs fail to hit.
Also with Volc, don't forget that 135 SpAtk isn't that bad to begin with without a boost, and can still threaten quite a lot of switch-ins if they try and predict a Quiver Dance. This is sort of like Haxorus who also did not have to go for a DD and just smack a Pokemon with its already high attack. But the difference between Haxorus and Volc, is that Haxorus got threatened by most Pokemon, as with its poor bulk and a set of resistances which aren't all too helpful in this tier, meaning it could be 2HKOed or incredibly close to a 2HKO by most Pokemon. This way in order to prevent getting hammered on the switch but also not let it setup you would simply keep your Pokemon that you had in play and attack it so it cannot sweep. Volc on the other hand has enough Special Bulk and useful resistance AND reliable recovery that allows it to boost on a range of Pokemon and easily get to +2 or +3 or higher, whereas Haxorus generally struggled to get there. Florges, Aromatisse, Blissey not carrying Toxic or T-Wave, it can even setup on Slowbro if it really wants to:
4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 114-134 (36.5 - 42.9%) -- 97.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 123-145 (39.4 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
and at the same time, you might want to be hesitant to send in your Mienshao to stop it before it gets to +2 in case you get onto the wrong end of one of these:
252+ SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mienshao: 306-360 (112.9 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Its ability to force these situations makes Volc especially threatening. Do I sack my Pokemon at the moment to get off some damage and risk some nasty setup, or switch in my Scarfer and risk the hit?
Not to mention as a last little point in Volc's favour it can screw over some Physical attackers with Flame Body, where if they do get burned it can boost further.
And BTW, a Bulky Chesto Resto set will reliably beat Blissey, if that is your counter.
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