np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Wrecking Ball [Read Post 423 for Posting etiquette]

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True, it is an understatement. But the fact of the matter is that Mega-Mawile is being suspect-testing for, apparently, lacking a "perfect counter".
I'm seeing a lot of calculations about very specific Pokemon, but not much in the way of considering other OU Pokemon that are faster, or have Prankster, and have access to Taunt - which prevents the use of Swords Dance and Substitute.
Earthquake/Earth Power and Flare Blitz/Fire Blast/Flamethrower/Heat Wave/Overheat normally can take out Mega-Mawile easily - unless 252 EVs are invested in Special Defense, I suppose, but that isn't done as far as I know; I've witnessed this first hand.
Most mawile run speed investment to outspeed heatran, and no one in their right mind will keep a mawile that isn't set up on a heatran. So heatran really can't counter mega mawile.
 
(And just because:
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 382-450 (125.6 - 148%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 393-463 (129.2 - 152.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
The difference is that mega mawile takes ones turn to set up to plus two, charizard takes two turns (SD zard is rare). Zard also doesn't have intimidate or priority.
 

PokèManiac Livio

Un panino al salame
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I personally dont think that banning Mawile is an option, it is a must. Its typing is great, giving it two immunities, a lot of resistence only 2 weakness and many chance to setup. It has basically no counters, just few checks that are not even good considering its great movepool which includes one of best coverage of the metagame such as Fairy/Dark, a good set up move like Swords Dance in addition to the attack boost guaranteed by Huge Power and a lot of useful filler moves like Fire Fang that destroys respectively Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Scizor or an eventual other Mawile; Iron Head that rapes common poison like Venusaur or Amoonguss; Focus Punch that tears down on the switch some steel like Heatran or a less common Mega Aggron. The few monsters that approach more to the concept of counter are Defensive Charizard X, Charizard Y or Arcanine, all three are Fire type, wich means that are forced to recover after a couple of entries when the rocks are on the field, also the use of latter two say a lot about how Mawilite is centralizing this meta. Those people who argue about its mediocre speed or its mediocre HP are just clutching at straws, they should consider the fact that non-mega form has access to intimidate and that his typing has about 9 resistence, then I ask them, who needs speed when you just click sucker punch and destroy everything?
 

Inflikted

Orco2
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
But the fact of the matter is that Mega-Mawile is being suspect-testing for, apparently, lacking a "perfect counter".
I'm seeing a lot of calculations about very specific Pokemon, but not much in the way of considering other OU Pokemon that are faster, or have Prankster, and have access to Taunt - which prevents the use of Swords Dance and Substitute.
Earthquake/Earth Power and Flare Blitz/Fire Blast/Flamethrower/Heat Wave/Overheat normally can take out Mega-Mawile easily - unless 252 EVs are invested in Special Defense, I suppose, but that isn't done as far as I know; I've witnessed this first hand.
No, other OU mons have no perfect counters. Take Garchomp for example: if you look at the OU mons atm, there's no one of them that can both switch into it, outspeed, and OHKO / cripple (taking all of its possible movesets into account) , as garchomp can, in theory, beat any one of its "counters" with the right move/item. It can take down Skarm with Fire Blast, Togekiss with Stone edge, even Unaware Clefable with Life Orb Earthquake (that 2hkos it on the switch). Yet Garchomp is not being tested. Why? Because in order to beat said counters, it has to run movesets that are subpar in the current (quite offensive) metagame: if it has Life Orb, for example, it cannot resort to Focus sash to get up rocks more reliably, and is also revenge killed quite easily against a HO team; if it has scarf, it will be more difficult to revenge kill but it will lack power because no SD etc.. (I don't know if this is the best example, and I probably worded this poorly, but I hope you get what I mean)

On the other hand Mawile's two standard sets not only screw on each other's counters, but are perfectly fine outside of that. Running SubPunch to beat Heatran does not mean that Mawile will be so much less of a pain for offensive teams in general; it won't be able to harm Mega Venusaur, for example, but this does not mean that it won't be less threatening to a whole playstyle (like my probably bad example of LO Chomp agaist hyper offense...). Combine this particular kind of versatility with the positive traits everybody knows about at this point, and that i have addressed in my other posts, and you have a broken pokemon in my opinion.

EDIT: I also forgot to say that too many taunt users are actually OHKOed by mawile if it just goes for an attack without trying to set up mindlessly...
 
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While at first I was against the Aegislash ban, a lot of people have shown me how it was broken, and through reading I realized how Aegislash limited the metagame, Mega Mawile on the other hand is something very different, sure its extremely strong but that only doesnt make it ban worthy, Look at Kyurem-B, amazing offensive stats, with better speed and higher base power moves and it is still not considered the best in OU. Mega Garchomp is the exact same way, amazing offensive stats, decent speed, but still not an OU staple, Mega Mawile is strong but its slow speed really screws it over even if it has sucker punch, still looking forward to see how the metagame changes if it gets banned or not
 
While at first I was against the Aegislash ban, a lot of people have shown me how it was broken, and through reading I realized how Aegislash limited the metagame, Mega Mawile on the other hand is something very different, sure its extremely strong but that only doesnt make it ban worthy, Look at Kyurem-B, amazing offensive stats, with better speed and higher base power moves and it is still not considered the best in OU. Mega Garchomp is the exact same way, amazing offensive stats, decent speed, but still not an OU staple, Mega Mawile is strong but its slow speed really screws it over even if it has sucker punch, still looking forward to see how the metagame changes if it gets banned or not
Why are you comparing mega waifu to kyurem b and mega chomp? Mega mawile is S rank, they are A- and B+. They both lack priority or the godly typing mawile has, and their attack stats aren't nearly as high. I don't see what the comparison was trying to establish other than that out current suspect is better than either of them. If it wasnt better, it obviously wouldn't be up for a suspect test.

Yes Mawile has low speed but fairy dark coverage is great and it can boost or set up a sub, and not have 4MSS like mega chomp, and its typing is better for forcing switched than kyurem b.
 
While at first I was against the Aegislash ban, a lot of people have shown me how it was broken, and through reading I realized how Aegislash limited the metagame, Mega Mawile on the other hand is something very different, sure its extremely strong but that only doesnt make it ban worthy, Look at Kyurem-B, amazing offensive stats, with better speed and higher base power moves and it is still not considered the best in OU. Mega Garchomp is the exact same way, amazing offensive stats, decent speed, but still not an OU staple, Mega Mawile is strong but its slow speed really screws it over even if it has sucker punch, still looking forward to see how the metagame changes if it gets banned or not
Difference between mawile, kyurem-B, and garchomp is kyurem-B has very poor typing, a horrible physical movepool to back up that physical attack, and it's primary stab, outrage, is made nearly useless if a single fairy is present.

Garchomp can by stalled by gliscor, and unless scarf has low speed and easily to revenge kill with pokemon like greninja, HP ice manectric, or even talonflame for that matter.

Mawile on the other hand.. if she is running sub+focus punch.. she can avoid status, and hit every status user hard (sableye, heatran, etc) making status moves in general a check unlike aegislash.. plus SD can completely negate burn if you predict it, immune to toxic, doesn't care about paralysis being already slow and having priority.. the only one that screws it over is maybe breloom who can spore and let something like charizard Y handle it.. but there's a thing called switching anyway and if it subs first when you bring him in enjoy the play rough.

She's not easy to OHKO either.. thanks to that 50/125/95 defenses and intimidate..

-1 252 Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 218-260 (71.7 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 195-229 (64.1 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 141-166 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 258-306 (84.8 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

1v1 she can safely SD on any of these hits.. and then priority sucker punch the entire game.. (bar talonflame) and if burned it doesn't really care.. basicly life orb damage she's getting since it's doing nothing else.
 
Why are you comparing mega waifu to kyurem b and mega chomp? Mega mawile is S rank, they are A- and B+. They both lack priority or the godly typing mawile has, and their attack stats aren't nearly as high. I don't see what the comparison was trying to establish other than that out current suspect is better than either of them. If it wasnt better, it obviously wouldn't be up for a suspect test.

Yes Mawile has low speed but fairy dark coverage is great and it can boost or set up a sub, and not have 4MSS like mega chomp, and its typing is better for forcing switched than kyurem b.
Difference between mawile, kyurem-B, and garchomp is kyurem-B has very poor typing, a horrible physical movepool to back up that physical attack, and it's primary stab, outrage, is made nearly useless if a single fairy is present.

Garchomp can by stalled by gliscor, and unless scarf has low speed and easily to revenge kill with pokemon like greninja, HP ice manectric, or even talonflame for that matter.

Mawile on the other hand.. if she is running sub+focus punch.. she can avoid status, and hit every status user hard (sableye, heatran, etc) making status moves in general a check unlike aegislash.. plus SD can completely negate burn if you predict it, immune to toxic, doesn't care about paralysis being already slow and having priority.. the only one that screws it over is maybe breloom who can spore and let something like charizard Y handle it.. but there's a thing called switching anyway and if it subs first when you bring him in enjoy the play rough.

She's not easy to OHKO either.. thanks to that 50/125/95 defenses and intimidate..

-1 252 Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 218-260 (71.7 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 195-229 (64.1 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 141-166 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 258-306 (84.8 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

1v1 she can safely SD on any of these hits.. and then priority sucker punch the entire game.. (bar talonflame) and if burned it doesn't really care.. basicly life orb damage she's getting since it's doing nothing else.
you guys are both right! i am not here to argue, but my post was just to say to everyone who thinks mega mawile is ban worthy because of its attack stat. I was just trying to disprove what some people think as one of the reasons its broken. Your guys' reasons are definitely fair and I apologize if i came off as dumb

you also said there is such thing as switching, if she switches she looses her intimidate and most of you calcs become OHKO's
 
you guys are both right! i am not here to argue, but my post was just to say to everyone who thinks mega mawile is ban worthy because of its attack stat. I was just trying to disprove what some people think as one of the reasons its broken. Your guys' reasons are definitely fair and I apologize if i came off as dumb
Nah you didn't.

Mega mawile isn't being suspected only for its attack stat. It's also it typing, great ability pre mega evo, priority, and its versatility mega Medicham has a similar attack stat and hits harder, but it has a bad typing and is frail
 
Okay--stats are not a reason we suspect things--Neither is typing, nor is versatility. The core reason things get suspected is because they are unhealthy for the metagame. Whether that effect is shown through sheer brokenness (ie being OP), introducing an unnecessary level of uncompetitive play (many point to 50/50s, I point to swag play), or just a downright unhealthy level of centralization (which was by and large the case with Aegislash).

Taking that into account, I do believe that Mega-Mawile deserves this suspect. As has been said, while Mawile is alive, you need to play obnoxiously cautious. Additionally, the ease a which he can switch in and set up is abysmal for the metagame. Mawile scares so many things out for all types of teams, be that stall, balance, or offense. In the hands of a semi-competent player, Mawile is guaranteed to get a kill, which is something we cannot allow in our metagame. If something lowers the skill level so much as Mawile, it is our duty as a community to ban it.

BAN
 

HBK

Subtlety is my middle name
It's easier for stall to deal with Mawile than what some people are suggesting. Counter Skarmory, Mega Venusaur, Mew, Heatran, etc. can deal with it while pokemon like Hippowdon and Gliscor can force it out. It's not impossible for Mawile to muscle it's way past them but it requires skill and prediction due to it's low speed and defensive stats. Unlike Charizard X and Y, it lacks a reliable recovery move which further reduces it's life expectancy. Not to mention the fact that it's only form of priority is susceptible to switches, Substitutes, Will-O-Wisps, etc. and has only 8 PP.
 
I can see a potential sucker punch clause. I would agree with that wholeheartedly, but Mawile isn't really warping a format that is so heavy with Earthquakes. I haven't seen a single person say "You can't play X because Mawile is a thing." she just really hurts to play against so instead of demolishing a poke that's just very strong how about we say she's a bit too strong to have a priority. I don't think we would even be here if sucker punch didn't exist.
 
Surely while Mawile is burned Skarmory and Venusaur can stall it out with Roost and Synthesis? Especially is Mawile needs to set up subs to use Focus punch on Skarmory.
You do realize 1. Skarmory has to be very careful when to Roost since Focus Punch is super effective if Skarmory Roosts at the wrong time and 2. Synthesis only has 8 PP so it can be stalled out quite easily and won't have enough left to heal against the rest of the opposing team.

I just want to highlight the point that Srn9130 made: Mega Mawile is a wallbreaker that can't be revenge killed thanks to Sucker Punch. This is literally the best response to the anti-ban argument stating no counters=/=broken due to things like gen 5 Hydreigon. Hydreigon was very easy to revenge kill thanks to being weak to Mach Punch and Ice Shard, naturally being slower than many offensive pokemon, and being outsped by Choice Scarf users. However, Mawile isn't weak to any form of Priority, and can use its own form of priority to get bast the latter two points.

Are there any valid points that can even be made by the anti-ban side?
 
Most mawile run speed investment to outspeed heatran, and no one in their right mind will keep a mawile that isn't set up on a heatran. So heatran really can't counter mega mawile.
Wouldn't forcing it out be the definiton of a check/counter?
 
It's easier for stall to deal with Mawile than what some people are suggesting. Counter Skarmory, Mega Venusaur, Mew, Heatran, etc. can deal with it while pokemon like Hippowdon and Gliscor can force it out. It's not impossible for Mawile to muscle it's way past them but it requires skill and prediction due to it's low speed and defensive stats. Unlike Charizard X and Y, it lacks a reliable recovery move which further reduces it's life expectancy. Not to mention the fact that it's only form of priority is susceptible to switches, Substitutes, Will-O-Wisps, etc. and has only 8 PP.
All of the "things that can deal with it" are extremely shaky. Skarm is killed by +2 fire fang with SR down; Venu loses to Iron Head, Mew to Knock Off, Heatran to Sub Punch. Sure things can scare it off, but what's stopping it from just switching in on your chansey or Sylveon again, and setting up. Mawile has an easy time setting up against stall.

I think it's also worth noting that Mawile has a case of 4MSS, meaning that while it can't kill everything, it's extremely unpredictable.
 

HBK

Subtlety is my middle name
All of the "things that can deal with it" are extremely shaky. Skarm is killed by +2 fire fang with SR down; Venu loses to Iron Head, Mew to Knock Off, Heatran to Sub Punch. Sure things can scare it off, but what's stopping it from just switching in on your chansey or Sylveon again, and setting up. Mawile has an easy time setting up against stall.

I think it's also worth noting that Mawile has a case of 4MSS, meaning that while it can't kill everything, it's extremely unpredictable.
Let's be realistic here, Iron Head and Knock Off are rare, Mew and Mega Venusaur are faster than it anyway so they can Will O Wisp or hit it with a Hidden Power Fire/Earthquake before it has a chance to attack. It's really just a toss up between Fire Fang and Focus Punch and they can be dealt with.
 
To all you people spouting absolute nonsense about "no counter" "the sucker punch 50/50 is ruining the metagame" just stop playing competitive pokemon because next week is mega medicham, than latios, than fucking magikarp. I don't get why people complain about pokemon that clearly aren't op.

A GOOD PLAYER WILL SCOUT WHICH SET MEGA MAWILE IS RUNNING, all mega mawile sets have counters and by all of them i mean the only 2 it has. It's nowhere near as versatile as aegislash, is slow as fuck, RELIES ON SUCKER PUNCH. Let me just say this, it's obvious which set mega mawile is running like 2nd turn and it's so easy to play around that. Swords dance gets utterly countered by heatran along with any fire type that runs will o wisp (checked by any dark resist that learns a super effective move or none fire type will o wisps). Not to mention pokemon like mew beat it anyways unless it has like knock off and if mega venu has earthquake/hp fire it beats it unless the mawile has like friggin iron head which nobody runs nowadays.

Overall this suspect is just outrageous, this along with many other suspects makes me feel like smogon is banning pokes that affect their teams more than other peoples. The thing i want to know is how people decide who makes the suspects because i've never had a problem with mega mawile and i don't even run like any of its counters.

If mega mawile really had an effect on the metagame all it's counters from lower tiers even if gimmicky would actually gain usage, i saw none of this and it honestly just proves its not as op as people say, arcanine, will o wisp infiltrated chandie counter for example and pokes like krookodile beat it anyways since earthquake kills and it can definitely take a sucker punch.
 
Let's be realistic here, Iron Head and Knock Off are rare, Mew and Mega Venusaur are faster than it anyway so they can Will O Wisp or hit it with a Hidden Power Fire/Earthquake before it has a chance to attack. It's really just a toss up between Fire Fang and Focus Punch and they can be dealt with.
1 swords dance=negate the burn. With mawile half the time a single swords dance isn't nessecary to OHKO threats.

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 307-362 (91.9 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 412-486 (113.1 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mew: 389-458 (96.2 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Mawile is clicking the win button in a match rather than failing it's team.
 

Syberia

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I'm afraid I may not be able to participate in this test as I won't really have a lot of time to battle until at least mid-week next week, but I will say that I've never had a problem with Mega Mawile, mainly due to its speed. Anything but a pure wall can be made to outspeed it with careful EV allotment, and Substitute or Will-o-wisp, which are both good moves anyways, can both deal with Sucker Punch. In the case of Substitute, it can even lead to a free turn of setup.
 

HBK

Subtlety is my middle name
Iron head is common knock off not as common but still usable
The common move sets are: Play Rough/Sucker Punch/Swords Dance/Fire Fang and Play Rough/Sucker Punch/Focus Punch/Substitute. Some people run Substitute-less Focus Punch (myself included) but Iron Head and Knock Off are rare (among good players anyway).

1 swords dance=negate the burn. With mawile half the time a single swords dance isn't nessecary to OHKO threats.

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 307-362 (91.9 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Stall teams generally have an Unaware pokemon (generally Quagsire) to which they can comfortably switch after they've burnt Mawile. Against Offensive/Balanced teams, everything is faster than it and while a Swords Dance might negate the burn, it weakens Sucker Punch so that it's easier to revenge kill it.
 
Let's be realistic here, Iron Head and Knock Off are rare, Mew and Mega Venusaur are faster than it anyway so they can Will O Wisp or hit it with a Hidden Power Fire/Earthquake before it has a chance to attack. It's really just a toss up between Fire Fang and Focus Punch and they can be dealt with.
Alright, maybe Knock Off was a bit far-reaching, but that doesn't take anything away from its viability. Iron Head isn't all that uncommon, and it's extremely powerful. Honestly, Sub Punch is enough to dismantle stall, because WoW can't do anything to it.
 
Mega mawile, as most people know is very powerful, but it has many possible counters, such a Heatran, unless you carry brick break. Another counter is Mega Venusaur, not many people carry iron head anymore, so it's a good counter. Skarmory is another OU counter, being able to take a play rough and iron head, but can't really attack back. Mega mawile would/ already is crushing common pokemon that are in ubers with play roughs on dragon types and darkrais. Aegislash I never found much of a counter, mainly because you just keep on sucker punching, or beat the mind games with fire fang. I think it should stay OU.
 
I think M-Mawile's fine
The sucker punch shenanigans counteract its low speed
Plenty of counters are able to withstand it
WoW is able to to hamper most sets aside from ones like Sub punch
I'll also try to participate on the ladder.
 
Stall teams generally have an Unaware pokemon (generally Quagsire) to which they can comfortably switch after they've burnt Mawile. Against Offensive/Balanced teams, everything is faster than it and while a Swords Dance might negate the burn, it weakens Sucker Punch so that it's easier to revenge kill it.
Yeah because everybody has a quagsire on their team. That is the definition of overcentralization.. it forces players to bring a single pokemon on nearly every single one of their teams and it fails in any roles other than dealing with that one threat the majority of the time. Quagsire screws with charizard X (who btw is suspect worthy), screws with landorus (suspect worthy) and got haze for baton pass teams (which are now gone) what other roles could he serve?

Should mawile be a sub set to avoid a burn (who's switching mawile into a heatran or rotom wash anyway?)

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 247-291 (62.6 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It's a "check" but not a wall.. even if you're running scald on your quagsire, that's still entirely luck based..

Btw.. am I the only one who uses a taunt mawile? I think it deserves a mention.. especially since we're trying to stall it..
 
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People don't have Quag on their team just for Mawile, they have it around for physical setup sweepers. Let's just please stop that fallacy, ok?

Also, TheWyvernKing has a very good point on bringing up the lower-tier Pokés that can effectively stop M-Mawile on its tracks. Arcanine is a beauty for this. Overall, it reminds me so much of Terrakion in Gen V having Nidoqueen and Gollurk among the best ways to stop it.
 
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