Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[DoABarrelRoll]

Vappy is outclassed to hell and back. It has a niche during the BP era, but then it got nerfed...

Anyway, aside from this Starmie crap, i'm going to nominate Kyurem-B for A.

Depending on its set, Cube can beat all the S-rank Pokemon (even +1 Zard X if it runs Scarf Jolly), thanks to its enormous firepower even by Ubers standards. The Fairy-type did not affect him that much, since it can beat all Fairy-type Pokemon in the game with either Fusion Bolt, (CB) Iron Head or Earth Power. The Aegislash ban is also a blessing for it, since it could live an Earth Power (or two from physically offensive variants) and OHKO back.

Also, Mixed Kyurem-B takes a massive dump on stall. Even more so than Mega Hera/Gardy, which are being proposed for A-/A. Mold Breaker is one of the main reasons, since it bypasses Venusaur's Thick Fat and Skarmory's Sturdy, allowing Cube to OHKO them. Clefable and Quagsire are 2HKOed by Ice Beam, Amoonguss is OHKOed, Chansey gets beaten in two hits by Outrage (or Dragon Claw), Heatran gets smashed by Earth Power, Ferrothorn is 2HKOed by Ice Beam, etc etc etc.

I think K-B is better than pokes like Skarmory and Manaphy, and more comparable to the likes of Terrakion and Lando-T.

 

[Ptyra]

I agree for Kyu-B but Ferrothorn in only 3HKOed by Ice Beam.

252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 152-179 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

And after SR : 252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 152-179 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[theV8man]

I don't think Kyurem-b should rise to A because imo it's not as affective at stall-breaking as Mega-Hera or Gard. Kyurem-B has an astonishingly easy time with generic Venu-Tran cores, but it struggles to KO bulky fairies, Ferrothorn as Ptyra mentioned, and Chansey. Basically, depending on what moves you run you break different stuff but with the other notable wall-breakers one set takes on almost everything. I say Kyurem-B is fine in A-.

 

[Redolent]

Simple: It has no niche. Vaporeon struggles to find much of a niche as a bulky Water-type over Suicune, Rotom-W, Slowbro, or Quagsire. All of these Pokemon bring something to the table that is unique and warrants them a slot on several teams, but Vaporeon doesn't provide much that warrants it a slot over them. It's pretty outclassed; the only thing it can do reasonably well is WishTect, but even though it's a bulky Water with WishTect, that combo is not needed in OU right now.

Vaporeon was okay when Baton Pass chains were a thing, but now it has no reason to be used on a serious OU team. It'll drop back down to UU where it belongs in the next tier shift anyways, as well.

It's one of those Pokémon whose full potential hasn't really been explored yet because people are still using the outdated physically defensive spread, which hasn't kept up with the power creep.

Specially defensive Vaporeon can counter some common OU Pokémon like Greninja, Charizard Y (if no SR) and some that are known for causing problems for stall like Landorus, Suicune and Gengar. It does badly want to EV both defenses though.

I would put it in D at least.

 

[114]

Simple: It has no niche. Vaporeon struggles to find much of a niche as a bulky Water-type over Suicune, Rotom-W, Slowbro, or Quagsire. All of these Pokemon bring something to the table that is unique and warrants them a slot on several teams, but Vaporeon doesn't provide much that warrants it a slot over them. It's pretty outclassed; the only thing it can do reasonably well is WishTect, but even though it's a bulky Water with WishTect, that combo is not needed in OU right now.

Vaporeon was okay when Baton Pass chains were a thing, but now it has no reason to be used on a serious OU team. It'll drop back down to UU where it belongs in the next tier shift anyways, as well.

Lol this is utter bull shit.

Vaporeon has wish, heal bell, scald immunity, baton pass. Suicune, Rotom-W, Slowbro, and Quagsire have none of that.

Not to mention, baton pass is still VERY GOOD in the meta right now, especially on umbreon/vaporeon/sylveon. It gives great momentum ability, and allows for safe switch ins for things like mega heracross, medicham, gardevoir, CB terrak, Specs Keldeo....

e.g. Send vapreon in on greninja, eat a dark pulse; next turn greninja u-turns to ferrothorn and you baton pass --> now you can switch in heracross, or any set up sweeper, and turn the tide of the game.

Not to mention specially defensive beats out landorus, and defensive counters keldeo... threats that are typically tough to get by. Underrated, and definitely worthy of something above D rank.

 

[effyouzion]

can you guys stop bringing up irrelevant calcs oml... i don't even know what some of these arguments are. i don't need a calc to know starmie does crap to ferrothorn, that's not the point and all it does is distract from whatever you're trying to say.

the bulky starmie set actually does beat sr'ers, fwiw. landt gets tanked and bodied. it does fine vs lead terrak, scald down to the sash, not ohkoed by sedge if they go for that and can just spin. it shits on skarm. hippo, easy. heatran, easy. lando won't stay in. mamo is shit on. ferro, chomp, tar, and fable are sorta annoying but even then all of them but fable risk burns/plus you can actually 1v1 tar and ferro with reflect type between scald burn, spin, and recover. so don't act like it flounders vs all these rockers when it doesn't.

the only relevant spinblocker is gengar which starmie craps on, so there's no reason why it's relevant.

The problem with bulky Starmie is that it does nothing other than spin. Scald does shit damage against everything other than your standard rocks setters, and on the defensive side of things, Starmie's isn't good enough to hold up against even strong resisted hits:

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Scald vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 111-132 (34.3 - 40.8%) -- 55.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even Keldeo can stall out your recover PP and beat you. With a resisted hit no less.

You can run psyshock over reflect type to take out Keldeo and Gengar, but then you lose to Ferrothorn. And when you lose to Ferrothorn, that means he can switch in every single time Starmie comes in and put those rocks right back up... which defeats the purpose of being a defensive spinner.

Excadrill is good because he offers offensive and defensive synergy at the same time as his spinning. Starmie offers only one or the other, and his defensive capabilities are questionable at best.

Starmie is fine in C

 

[Numera]

Lol this is utter bull shit.

Vaporeon has wish, heal bell, scald immunity, baton pass. Suicune, Rotom-W, Slowbro, and Quagsire have none of that.

Not to mention, baton pass is still VERY GOOD in the meta right now, especially on umbreon/vaporeon/sylveon. It gives great momentum ability, and allows for safe switch ins for things like mega heracross, medicham, gardevoir, CB terrak, Specs Keldeo....

e.g. Send vapreon in on greninja, eat a dark pulse; next turn greninja u-turns to ferrothorn and you baton pass --> now you can switch in heracross, or any set up sweeper, and turn the tide of the game.

Not to mention specially defensive beats out landorus, and defensive counters keldeo... threats that are typically tough to get by. Underrated, and definitely worthy of something above D rank.

LOL. "Baton pass is still VERY GOOD in the meta right now" You do realise you are only allowed one pokemon with BP per team, right? BP would be a terrible waste of a move slot. You'd run Scald/Wish/Protect/Heal Bell. If you want a Wishpasser, just use a bloody Chansey, that also gets Heal Bell. Scald Immunity? Chansey doesn't give a shit, Natural Cure. It can always Heal Bell if anything else gets burned. Keldeo? Most stall teams have Amoongus/Mega Venu for this anyway. Greninja? CHANSEY. How are you turning the tide of the game just by gaining some momentum? Can't you do this by correctly predicting a switch? You don't need Suicune. Rotom-W, Slowbro or Quagsire to have those moves, when Chansey does the job of a wishpasser much better.

effyouzion Scald isn't suppost to DO DAMAGE when using it on other Pokemon that aren't the standard rock setters. Remember that burn chance that makes it risky to switch in on? And HOW is Excadrill even the slightest good defensively? Does it get recovery?

 

[114]

LOL. "Baton pass is still VERY GOOD in the meta right now" You do realise you are only allowed one pokemon with BP per team, right? BP would be a terrible waste of a move slot. You'd run Scald/Wish/Protect/Heal Bell. If you want a Wishpasser, just use a bloody Chansey, that also gets Heal Bell. Scald Immunity? Chansey doesn't give a shit, Natural Cure. It can always Heal Bell if anythubg else like that. Keldeo? Most stall teams have Amoongus/Mega Venu for this anyway. Greninja? CHANSEY. How are you turning the tide of the game just by gaining some momentum? Can't you do this by correctly predicting a switch? You don't need Suicune. Rotom-W, Slowbro or Quagsire to have those moves, when Chansey does the job of a wishpasser much better.

That's the entire point my friend. Baton pass, by and large, eliminates the need for prediction.

I would agree chansey is a better wish passer. But one of vap's sets that I believe is most effective is not dedicated wishpasser, but BP pivot. Chansey would fit better on a stall team, while BP vaporeon would fit better on an offensive team.

Consider the same greninja situation: send chansey in on dark pulse, then he u turns out and brings in 101 hp Sub Kyu-B. You're (potentially) fucked. In this case, you don't even have the opportunity to use shaky "prediction" because of u-turn. BP obviates the need for both, giving you potentially game changing momentum (if your team is structured to take advantage of free switches). Yes, if you can get mega-hera/cham in safely, or successfully set up a Sub-Kyu B, or a free specs hydropump on keldeo, you can easily "turn the tide" of the game.

I mentioned those moves because the previous poster said that suicune/rotom-w/slowbro/quagsire leave vap with no niche, which is not true.

 

[Numera]

That's the entire point my friend. Baton pass, by and large, eliminates the need for prediction.

I would agree chansey is a better wish passer. But one of vap's sets that I believe is most effective is not dedicated wishpasser, but BP pivot. Chansey would fit better on a stall team, while BP vaporeon would fit better on an offensive team.

Consider the same greninja situation: send chansey in on dark pulse, then he u turns out and brings in 101 hp Sub Kyu-B. You're (potentially) fucked. In this case, you don't even have the opportunity to use shaky "prediction" because of u-turn. BP obviates the need for both, giving you potentially game changing momentum (if your team is structured to take advantage of free switches). Yes, if you can get mega-hera/cham in safely, or successfully set up a Sub-Kyu B, or a free specs hydropump on keldeo, you can easily "turn the tide" of the game.

I mentioned those moves because the previous poster said that suicune/rotom-w/slowbro/quagsire leave vap with no niche, which is not true.

The momentum gain is (eh) nice, but wouldn't it just be worth checking these Pokemon that Vappy gains momentum on on a balanced team? If you REALLY want wishpass on balanced (certainly not Hyper Offence or Bulky Offence) Chansey is the way to go, taking hits better and Wishpassing far more HP. The scenario you listed is so bloody situational, you've just edged it in Vappy's favour. You're not gonna run into a scenario like that as often as one would like to make out. It's too situational to be viable.

 

[Jukain]

The problem with bulky Starmie is that it does nothing other than spin. Scald does shit damage against everything other than your standard rocks setters, and on the defensive side of things, Starmie's isn't good enough to hold up against even strong resisted hits:

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Scald vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 111-132 (34.3 - 40.8%) -- 55.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even Keldeo can stall out your recover PP and beat you. With a resisted hit no less.

You can run psyshock over reflect type to take out Keldeo and Gengar, but then you lose to Ferrothorn. And when you lose to Ferrothorn, that means he can switch in every single time Starmie comes in and put those rocks right back up... which defeats the purpose of being a defensive spinner.

Excadrill is good because he offers offensive and defensive synergy at the same time as his spinning. Starmie offers only one or the other, and his defensive capabilities are questionable at best.

Starmie is fine in C

the set i actually have run is toxic scald recover spin, toxic cuz it prevents you from being zard x fodder and like you can toxic gyara, whatever and this cripples keld as well. plus its not like u cant fish for burns with scald and then you're beating keld.

starmie offers a key thing and that is a keldeo counter, which exca cannot do. exca is not defensive, lol, sure it can take one or two hits and maybe check something but that's not its role. starmie is also a lot faster giving it plenty of opportunities to come out and spin without the restriction of a scarf or sand for really when it can spin. what are all these rockers exca is doing so well against? they don't exist. you're really underselling starmie's spinning prowess, c is a joke.

 

[effyouzion]

the set i actually have run is toxic scald recover spin, toxic cuz it prevents you from being zard x fodder and like you can toxic gyara, whatever and this cripples keld as well. plus its not like u cant fish for burns with scald and then you're beating meld.

If you switch in on Keldeo's scald you are going to lose unless you burn before he does (which is hard, considering you're going to be using recover every other turn while he just spams scald). Not exactly reliable. I'll give you toxic as a better counter but that still leaves you walled by Ferrothorn and unable to beat Gengar.

starmie offers a key thing and that is a keldeo counter, which exca cannot do. exca is not defensive, lol, sure it can take one or two hits and maybe check something but that's not its role. starmie is also a lot faster giving it plenty of opportunities to come out and spin without the restriction of a scarf or sand for really when it can spin. what are all these rockers exca is doing so well against? they don't exist. you're really underselling starmie's spinning prowess, c is a joke.

No, Excadrill is not defensive. But the scarf set is an excellent Talonflame check, the air balloon set walls most Gliscor, and all sets offer an electric immunity. Being able to predict a volt switch and stop it is awesome.

Offensive Starmie offers 0 defensive synergy, and "defensive" Starmie is still not beating very many threats.

 

[Tyrant laharl]

The problem with bulky Starmie is that it does nothing other than spin. Scald does shit damage against everything other than your standard rocks setters, and on the defensive side of things, Starmie's isn't good enough to hold up against even strong resisted hits:

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Scald vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 111-132 (34.3 - 40.8%) -- 55.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even Keldeo can stall out your recover PP and beat you. With a resisted hit no less.

You can run psyshock over reflect type to take out Keldeo and Gengar, but then you lose to Ferrothorn. And when you lose to Ferrothorn, that means he can switch in every single time Starmie comes in and put those rocks right back up... which defeats the purpose of being a defensive spinner.

Excadrill is good because he offers offensive and defensive synergy at the same time as his spinning. Starmie offers only one or the other, and his defensive capabilities are questionable at best.

Starmie is fine in C

Excuse my ignorance but how is specs hydro pump gonna outstall recover if there's only a 55 percent chance to 3hko?

 

[effyouzion]

Excuse my ignorance but how is specs hydro pump gonna outstall recover if there's only a 55 percent chance to 3hko?

That is a calc for scald, not hydro pump. Scald has more PP than recover, and once Starmie gets burned that will mean Keldeo is doing 40.5% to 47% damage each turn, with no leftovers recovery to help Starmie.

 

[theV8man]

If you switch in on Keldeo's scald you are going to lose unless you burn before he does (which is hard, considering you're going to be using recover every other turn while he just spams scald). Not exactly reliable. I'll give you toxic as a better counter but that still leaves you walled by Ferrothorn and unable to beat Gengar.

Seeing as nearly all Starmies run Psyshock and have max speed investment, I can't see an opposing player staying in with Keldeo and spamming scald and such.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Vaporeon has Baton Pass over other bulky waters: much like how Darmanitan has a bit more power over Victini, Helioisk has water immunity and some coverage moves over Mega Man/Raikou, Aromatisse has Trick Room and Taunt immunity over Clefable, etc.

Yeah these mons are not 100% outclassed, cause there's a few very specific niches they can fill or a few situations where the can perform better, but this doesn't mean that 99% of the time you're better off with using something that's better in most situations.

tl;dr vap is garbo and BP isn't good enough for it to be more useful than all the other good bulky waters.

 

[effyouzion]

Seeing as nearly all Starmies run Psyshock and have max speed investment, I can't see an opposing player staying in with Keldeo and spamming scald and such.

He will probably switch the first time around. Same with Gengar. But once the Keldeo/Gengar guy sees that your 4th move slot isn't a psychic attack, your Starmie is dead weight.

 

[Albacore]

In all honesty, Vaporeon is outclassed by Alomomola more than anything else : it has the exact same typing, and it's both a better wishpasser thanks to Regenerator and has far superior physical bulk. Sure, Vaporeon has better special bulk, but you generally want bulky Waters to take physical hits more than special ones (stuff like Keldeo's Sacred Sword, Mamoswine's Earthquake, XZard's Dragon Claw, MGyara's Earthquake, etc...)

Personally, the only reason I would ever run Vaporeon over Alomomola is if I desperately needed Heal Bell, but even so I'd rather fit Heal Bell on something else or even not use it at all than use Vaporeon over Alomomola, since the latter takes the hits I want it to take better and has obscenely good wishpassing abilities I would hate to miss out on.
Vaporeon does have a niche, but it's just too narrow to warrant a rank.

 

[Ash Borer]

252 hp / 252sdef+ alomo is practically dead even with 252 hp / 252def+ vaporeon defensively anyways.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Shouldn't we atleast give Vaporeon D rank, it is in the OU Tier after all

 

[Kyuzeth]

Shouldn't we atleast give Vaporeon D rank, it is in the OU Tier after all

Not worth it, as Vaporeon will drop back to UU in September. As previously stated, it should just remain as it currently is: unranked.

 

[Owen Xekrain]

Salamence for C+

Why: With Choice band/scarf it can sweep a solid portion of pokemon, it's major weakness being fairys
if it weren't so weak to ice I would say B-, but in this metagame it is a C+ pokemon

 

[Hclegend]

Salamence for C+

Why: With Choice band/scarf it can sweep a solid portion of pokemon, it's major weakness being fairys
if it weren't so weak to ice I would say B-, but in this metagame it is a C+ pokemon

Only problem: it's outclassed. Hell it's ECLIPSED by Dragonite and MegaZardX
It's outclassed by Dnite since it can take almost any hit thanks to Multiscale and set up a Dragon Dance, as well as being a popular choice for a choice band user (Extremespeed)
It's outclassed by ZardX thanks to (near) unresisted STAB coverage (Azu can resist both STABSs) and it being able to annihilate almost anything with its varied sets (Bulky Sweeper, DDance sweeper, tank with WoW)
And those at just TWO examples. Nevermind Garchomp (One of the best Scarfers) Haxorus (Underated alternative without the crippling 4x weaknesses) the Latis (Excelent Support/Offense) the list goes on.
And I'd like to say one more thing:
What does Salamance have that Mega Ampharos and/or Hydreigon haven't?
Basicilly nothing.
Until Mega Salamance is released and the meta gets owned by it, its just not viable without being outclassed :/
Edit: okay I may of been a little bit too harsh. Sorry about that.
Edit2: lol I'm a ninja... Who wrote a pretty damn long post.

 

[Colonial]

Salamence for C+

Why: With Choice band/scarf it can sweep a solid portion of pokemon, it's major weakness being fairys
if it weren't so weak to ice I would say B-, but in this metagame it is a C+ pokemon

Salamence has been brought up before.

In a vacuum, Salamence isn't a bad pokemon. However, in practice, it so outclassed by other Dragon types that there is little to no reason to use it. Band is outdone by Dragonite, DD is outdone by Zard X or Dragonite, and Scarf faces heavy competition from Garchomp and priority users. Moxie is neat, but not when all most of salamence's attacks have immunities.

EDIT: Darn it, HcLegend, you posted just as I was typing this up! Ah well.

EDIT2: OK, HcLegend's post says other stuff from mine. It's all good

 

[Srn]

Just because Starmie is a jack of all trades (master of none) does not mean it should move up. Donphan also combines the functionalities of Landorus-T, Mamoswine, Excadrill and so many other things and yet it's blacklisted.

BUT ANYWAY.

I agree with Mega Heracross to A-. Mega Heracross REALLY wanted Aegislash gone (much more than Starmie) and is no longer forced to run Earthquake to make an attempt at removing it. It's a true nightmare to stall with a Swords Dance set. Admittedly, it struggles against Unaware Clefable and Skarmory, but that's what you have teammates for and why is it not higher. It can break through Quagsire with Bullet Seed, and OHKO everything else with its incredible power. Even offense teams shouldn't take it lightly, as it has good defenses and can sometimes live super effective hits (and is one of the main reasons why Keldeo runs HP Flying). It beats Thundurus and Azumarill (the latter should indeed move up to S) 1-on-1, resists Pursuit/Sucker Punch and does not care at all about Knock Off, which means it's a nice check to Bisharp and Tyranitar.

Oh it partly does mamoswine's job because it uses a powerful ice shard right?
0 Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 144-172 (40.2 - 48%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Right guys?
-1 0 Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 100-120 (31.2 - 37.5%) -- 82.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Right?
0 Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 90-108 (30 - 36%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Uh guys?

Also actually staying on topic mega hera for A- is kool its natural bulk is actually stupid.
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 268-320 (88.7 - 105.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

It has a solid shot at living that like hello balk
It's a pretty solid check to lando-t and exca, along with some stuff like mega gyara if you keep it at totally full health.

 

[GGengar]

This might be an unpopular request, but I believe Toxicroak should move from Unranked to C+ or C. I've been using CTC's HO team with Toxicroak and Starmie in the Team Building Workshop thread and can comfortably say that since Aegislash's removal, it has a solid niche in the metagame. Toxicroak has the unique ability to offer a check to Keldeo, Clefable, Azumarill, and Breloom while applying pressure to teams with Swords Dance and Sucker Punch. I think Toxicroak's biggest selling point is that its mere presence pressures Belly Drum Azumarill to not set up and it can also switch into Specs Keldeo, two huge threats in the metagame. Toxicroak can pivot against rain offense and most bulky waters as well and has decent set up opportunities. It has a lot of flaws obviously, but it definitely shouldn't be unranked.

EDIT: Also it makes a sort of okay switch in to Non-Earthquake Terrakion too.