np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Wrecking Ball [Read Post 423 for Posting etiquette]

[haunter]

There are other +2 mons that deal the same kind of damage and have priority and also it's general knowledge not to let things get burnt. With 50 base speed M-Maw isn't switching in and out much like Thundy potentially could or something with more speed.

This is a completely false statement. Mawile has the bulk and the typing to switch in and out as much as it wants. It can come in on a lot of Pokémon, such as Ferrothorn, Conkeldurr, AV Azumarill, choiced dragons etc., land a powerful hit, killing or severely crippling something, then switch out and come back later in the game almost unharmed. If anything, unlike Thundurus, it has an excellent defensive typing, a great physical defense and 2 immunities to abuse.

With that, we should realize that the way the game is played is you can: wear it down and revenge it, send in a sucker resist(fighting types are so common and sucker doesn't kill everything), or try to bulk something and kill it. The issues there are you could potentially lose momentum, but maw needs a specific spot to get things done both situationally and in terms of where the match is(beginning, middle, end). Naturally if it's to the point in the game there's no way left for your team to take it down it sweeps, which is what sweepers do.

This is more easily said than done. If you're planning to revenge kill Mawile when at +2, you better have something like an healthy specs Keldeo, because sucker punch, even when resisted, does ridiculously high damage to every offensive Pokémon. For instance, Greninja takes up to 94% from an un-stabbed, resisted, boosted sucker punch.

My point is despite the calcs and whether or not maw is beaten or hard checked, that the way the game is played today, you make plays and get kills and bulk or sac what you can to get the job done. Plenty of mons at +2 require this, not just maw.

Sorry, but your argument is just too vague and generic to sound beliveable. While we've pretty much acknowledged that in today's metagame not everything can be hard countered, Mawile is one of those Pokémon that are not only next to impossible to counter, but that are also incredibily hard to revenge kill.

 

[ItoI6]

ok so i finished getting recs today on the ladder and got my first taste of the mawileless metagame.

The first thing that stuck out to me was how little it's changed with the removal of Mawilite. Mawile is a very different suspect from Aegis in that you won't suddenly start seeing Gardevoirs and Heracrosses popping up that have been previously limited in their effectiveness, because as a whole Mawile doesn't really centralize the metagame as much as people are trying to claim here. There aren't any pokemon that are going to jump in effectiveness because of this ban, in fact the only change i can see happening at all is arcanine getting unranked in the viability thread lol. Aside from ruining poor Arcanine's only niche in OU what does banning Mawilite really accomplish? Well first off I want to say that Mawile is not always the optimal mega for your ho or balance team. Yes it can be effective, yes it is sometimes the best mega for the team, and yes it is very good when used correctly, but you don't simply use mawile and expect to have the advantage. Pretty much every B to S rank Mega has a build that its more effectively used with than a mawile slapped onto the same team. It takes smarts to actually bring out mawile's effectiveness, and even then I'm still not convinced it's broken even with that support. To prove my point I'm gonna use data from wcop because tournaments are high class yo. Here's the stats on Mawile's usage in that tournament.

| 8th most used pokemon | Mawile | 65 uses | 20.70% usage | won in 49.23% in games it was used in |

Now I know you have to take this data with a grain of salt but are you really going to try and say that Mawile is such a broken force yet cant manage a win rate of over 50% from some of the best xy ou players out there? Now that might seem really surprising to you but you have to realize that everyone who is playing this game seriously is trying to make a team that is broken. Mega-Venusaur walls like over half the metagame, shit is broken. Medicham 2hkos everything in ou, shit is broken. Charizard has different counter depending on what it megas into and theyre both incredibly strong either way, shit is broken. Everyone is trying to make a team thats broken, and Mawile simply isnt at a level where it outbrokens everything else, even with its super strong play roughs and sucker punches. If Mawile is gone it just limits the range of things that are able to be competitive with all the broken stuff that we find acceptable at the moment.

Good balance teams with a mawile might have to rebuild completely because mawile checks so many things with its typing that there isnt really another mon you can just replace it with. HO teams are better off because idk megas are just more interchangable on that type of team, but still they suffer from it too. Pretty much the only thing that doesn't care and is greatful for the absence of the mawile is stall, which feels pretty good about it I guess lol. You could say that no Mawiles means more heracrosses/gardevoirs so they would be worse off, but in reality just because mawile exists doesnt mean those other threats dont exist, stall should be prepared for them anyways and now they will have less things to prepare for.

If you ban Mawile...I don't think it'll make the metagame better is all that I'll say lol. Very little if anything will change if anything at all, and you'll have slightly less options to build a team than you did before. Nothing will get opened up and discovered in the same way the ban of aegi did for some stuff. It's for this reason that I don't really care that much about it getting banned but ill probably vote no ban for when the time comes.

 

[Baharoth]

These Pokemon became far more popular than anyone predicted, and have caused stall without random niche crap like Doublade or whatever to be unreliable

Oh please... everybody and their mother knew that would happen with Aegi gone, it was one of the most common "arguments" in the Aegi bann thread. Yeah its not a good one because its basicly broken checks broken but dont come here and act like this came as a surprise. Everybody with half a brain could see this comming. And guess what, they will get even more popular with Mawile gone because Mawile somewhat outclasses them beeing the only wallbreaker in the tier that isnt easy to revengekill.

However, the damage is done, stall/balance is basicly unviable at this point and we need to repair the meta somehow and i think banning Mawile is a good way to start. Its arguably the best wallbreaker in the tier because it has only set dependend counters and is difficult to revengekill unlike the others. The power is unreal, the typing gives it lots of free switchins against common pokes and with such strong priority its low speed hardly matters at all. Its just a first step but i think it has to be done, not that i like playing against stall but i dont want to have HO mirrormatches all the time either and right now it feels like 90% Sandrush and Birdspam.

 

[AM]

This talk of 4mss being talked about on M-Mawile is such a minuscule issue cause the coverage with only 3 attacks + support move covers so much ground. Once again some are just looking at M-Mawile through a vacuum and failing to realize how easy it just tailors its own sets for not only itself and its team. Like I said M-Mawile isn't over-centralizing like Aegislash was perhaps, except for like defensive Char Y and other stuff. I want to see it go cause it's simply broken and promotes laziness, plain and simple. It's just an unhealthy component in OU and to those saying things in a similar vein such as what HBK said..

They think that by chopping and changing things, they can make this meta more acceptable by their standards; I don't think so. You ban stuff like Aegislash and Mawile that are "broken", pokemon that have been waiting in the shadows will become broken until they're banned too. This will go on until most of the Megas have been banned and the meta game still won't be deemed "desirable".

I just want to let you know that imo this is the last thing that needs to go, after that I'm positive that the meta can truly manage regardless of what others are saying about other Megas that are coming up. All the other points from both sides have been previously stated so yeah if you think M-Mawile is an unhealthy presence then ban, if not then don't ban. I just want to let others know where I'm coming from.

 

[MajorCc]

OK so to start i would like to talk about the way the majority if mawiles are ran they are ran bulky with a lot of power just its typing allows it to avoid the majority of typers being super effective but with the the bulk he can almost never be one hit reliably, then there is his ability huge power makes this thing a force of destruction and makes it so that it can not be simply walled especially if a stab move such as playrough is used it one shots or does around fifty percent to the majority of pokes i believe that thus thing is way to strong for ou and deserves to be ubers

 

[G-Beast]

My prediction of a metagame without Mawile will make a slew of dragon type Pokemon, namely Latios and Black Kyurem, much more prominent because it is one of the very few fairy types that can give them pause.. and there are very few viable fairy types right now. Mega Mawile can be nearly guaranteed to take a Pokemon with it before it goes but the same can be said of Hydreigon in BW2 and Black Kyurem(who frankly has less counters than Mega Mawile and is far more versatile, and tell me how many non fairy types that are viable at top tiers who can take two choice banded Outrages that aren't covered by Fusion Bolt from this thing and live to tell the tale.) to this day but they are far from being broken and were/are nowhere near being suspects of their respective era(s)

From reading everything here in addition to what I have presented in my previous posts, my experience being at a height of 1700s on showdown(presently 1563) of both playing with and against it, having a reasonably predictable movepool and not spectacularly bulky... It is my conclusive opinion that Mega Mawile is by no means overpowered nor unhealthy to the metagame, being plainly very good and should remain UNBANNED.

 

[TristanmanDfsj]

Mega Maw has to go. Because of Huge Power it has essentially a Base Attack of 259, so not even Pokes who resist its moves enjoy switching into it. Sucker Punch patches up its bad Speed and is actually tough to play around. It only has one role- blowing shit up- but it does it extremely well. Combine its raw power with the two best defensive typings in the game, and you have a monster that dishes out damage while often taking pitiful damage itself. Mega Maw is also the poster child for how dominatingly offensive OU has become. Without it, the metagame would be a lot healthier.

In my opinion Sucker Punch is not hard to play around, as it fails as long as you are not using an attacking move. A bulky set- up sweeper such as Poison Heal Swords Dance Gliscor (it exists) walls it to hell and back thanks to huge Defense and resists to common attacks that M-Mawile carries such as Focus Punch and Stone Edge and can damage it with STAB +2 Earthquake
+2 188+ Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 452-534 (148.6 - 175.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In contrast:
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 127-150 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- 5.1% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
Gliscor can easily set Swords Dance up with its great Defense, access to residual healing and Substitute against any set that Mega Mawile uses and doesn't even need a Swords Dance set to beat him 1-1: 0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 170-204 (55.9 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Just so someone doesn't try to discredit me later, this is Mega Mawile's strongest attack against Gliscor:
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 171-202 (48.3 - 57%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
OU Ban to Scorpion Bait in three seconds. Where is your ban now?

 

[Tomahawk]

It just seems to me that, intentionally or unintentionally, people are making this meta game more stall friendly which saddens me because, in my opinion, it defeats the purpose of this game by virtue of how boring it is.

Well, you make some good points, but you can't say that a certain playstyle defeats the purpose of the game just because you don't like it. Objectively, all playstyles are fine and ultimately, we should strive for a metagame where all playstyles are equally viable. Not one where stall is unviable, because it is 'boring'.

 

[Sandoori]

In my opinion Sucker Punch is not hard to play around, as it fails as long as you are not using an attacking move. A bulky set- up sweeper such as Poison Heal Swords Dance Gliscor (it exists) walls it to hell and back thanks to huge Defense and resists to common attacks that M-Mawile carries such as Focus Punch and Stone Edge and can damage it with STAB +2 Earthquake
+2 188+ Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 452-534 (148.6 - 175.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In contrast:
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 127-150 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- 5.1% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
Gliscor can easily set Swords Dance up with its great Defense, access to residual healing and Substitute against any set that Mega Mawile uses and doesn't even need a Swords Dance set to beat him 1-1: 0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 170-204 (55.9 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Just so someone doesn't try to discredit me later, this is Mega Mawile's strongest attack against Gliscor:
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 171-202 (48.3 - 57%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
OU Ban to Scorpion Bait in three seconds. Where is your ban now?

Meanwhile in the real world, Gliscor switching in on M-Mawile while it Swords Dances fails to OHKO with EQ, and is OHKO'd by +2 Play Rough in return.

0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 170-204 (55.9 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 358-423 (101.1 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

No competent player is going to be switching Mawile into Gliscor and it isn't threatened enough to go for Sucker Punch against a +0 Gliscor, so I'm not sure where you think you're going to pull a +2 from. And after that happens, there's no reason for M-Mawile to stay in.

and resists to common attacks that M-Mawile carries such as Focus Punch and Stone Edge

Nobody runs Stone Edge on Mawile. You're more likely to see Ice Punch than Stone Edge (which Gliscor definitely won't like). The only thing Mawile has to gain from Stone Edge is hitting specific threats on the switch, since it can't actually stay in against them it's better off letting teammates handle things like Talonflame and Volcarona.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 127-150 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- 5.1% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
Just so someone doesn't try to discredit me later, this is Mega Mawile's strongest attack against Gliscor:
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 171-202 (48.3 - 57%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal

I like how Gliscor's spread changed between calcs.

 

[Sun King]

*Snipity snip*

However, the damage is done, stall/balance is basicly unviable at this point and we need to repair the meta somehow and i think banning Mawile is a good way to start. Its arguably the best wallbreaker in the tier because it has only set dependend counters and is difficult to revengekill unlike the others. The power is unreal, the typing gives it lots of free switchins against common pokes and with such strong priority its low speed hardly matters at all. Its just a first step but i think it has to be done, not that i like playing against stall but i dont want to have HO mirrormatches all the time either and right now it feels like 90% Sandrush and Birdspam.

This. I wouldn't say that they're unviable per se, but they're definitely a LOT harder to build. I said earlier that our goal as a community is to make a balanced metagame--balanced meaning that it is equally viable to run Stall, Balanced, or Offense. As it currently stands, Offense is still THE MOST viable play style--something we can attribute to the MASSIVE power creep over the past two generations. As evidenced last gen in Keldeo and this gen in the Megas, we need to work to make things manageable for everybody. The right decision isn't always a popular one. If we ban wall breakers like Mawile, that doesn't mean you can't break stall. As a stall player, I can promise you that the best way to break stall is just better play. Also--things like Stallbreaker Gengar or stall breaker Mew will always exist. Just because you can't break stall by simply clicking a button 2 times doesn't mean stall is OP in a metagame.

All in all, Mawile is still an unhealthy presence not just because of its effect on Stall, but its effect on Offense AND Balance. Sure--it roughs up Stall by removing core members, but it nets kills just as easily against Offense and Balance. HBK I disagree with you; I believe that Mawile IS individually broken, whereas Aegislash was not. Unless a team is over-prepared for Mawile (as was often the case with Aegislash), Mawile can very easily find times to switch in. Do you have Lati@s on your team? Boom--there's your easy set up. Do you have Chansey or Sylveon on your team? Bingo! Another easy set up. Skarm, Ferro, Mandibuzz--all easy set up opportunities for Mawile. The mere presence of Mawile makes any of those pokemon complete liabilities--you cannot leave them in too long, or else Mawile will come in and set up. The sheer pressure he puts on the majority of the metagame just by being present is something we, as a community, cannot tolerate.

Also, people claiming that Mawile's speed hurts him--I said earlier that he doesn't need it. When you have a godly typing like that with respectable bulk, you can live with whatever speed they really give you. Think about it--what threats does Mawile naturally outspeed anyways? If you use him to punch holes, it doesn't matter if Mawile is paralyzed--making him that much more dangerous to fast, frail teams.

 

[G-Beast]

In my opinion Sucker Punch is not hard to play around, as it fails as long as you are not using an attacking move. A bulky set- up sweeper such as Poison Heal Swords Dance Gliscor (it exists) walls it to hell and back thanks to huge Defense and resists to common attacks that M-Mawile carries such as Focus Punch and Stone Edge and can damage it with STAB +2 Earthquake
+2 188+ Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 452-534 (148.6 - 175.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In contrast:
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 127-150 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- 5.1% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
Gliscor can easily set Swords Dance up with its great Defense, access to residual healing and Substitute against any set that Mega Mawile uses and doesn't even need a Swords Dance set to beat him 1-1: 0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 170-204 (55.9 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Just so someone doesn't try to discredit me later, this is Mega Mawile's strongest attack against Gliscor:
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 171-202 (48.3 - 57%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
OU Ban to Scorpion Bait in three seconds. Where is your ban now?

Responding to the point where you say that Play Rough is Mawile's strongest move vs Gliscor... Mawile can learn Ice Punch thanks to move tutors but the uses for it are very limited.

 

[Sandoori]

Okay, lemme try and refute this actual argument (kudos btw, its an actual argument O_O that's a pretty big step up for this thread)

I made a post on page 6 or so if you want to refer to that but basically what it said is this:
When you give a wallbreaker like mega mawile a way to deal with offense (priority) it becomes a problem.
Its the combination of power (which isn't uncommon as you pointed out) and strong priority (not a lot of mons) AND a boosting move (down to azu, pinsir, and the suspect herself) which make her so incredibly good.

You say sucker punch is inconsistent, but honestly, that's part of what makes it so unhealthy!
Like, why is a steel fairy even have a chance to win against a goddam garchomp?
Assuming mega mawile didn't lol set up on it so garchomp wouldn't be intimidated, EQ is a pretty clean OHKO
Its like watching mega heracross beat char-y 1v1, even if its inconsistent, IT'S POSSIBLE! And that's why mega mawile is so dumb.

I can agree that the above part about sucker punch makes mega mawile inconsistent, and yeah, that sucks. But as long as there's a chance for a goddam mega mawile to beat a garchomp which really shouldn't happen in the first place, then I can and have (like a lot of other tour players) accepted the certain level of risk that comes with relying on sucker punch, and as we can see, since we're suspecting the damn thing, the inconsistency of sucker punch doesn't hold it back THAT much.

Besides, unless the opponent has sub, you have 8 tries to win a 50/50, and your opponent has 1. Its still kind of in your favor.

M-Mawile has priority. M-Heracross doesn't care about Substitute/Sturdy/Focus Sash/Counter and Skill Link gives it a more consistent chance to break through defense boosts via crits. It also has bulk on a ridiculous level even without investment (252 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 268-320 (89 - 106.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO). M-Gardevoir has an extensive support movepool with moves such as Taunt, Will-o-Wisp, Destiny Bond, etc. as well as the ability to hit through Substitute. M-Medicham has ridiculous coverage that entirely denies safe switchins, the High Jump Kick that destroys worlds, and Fake Out (I know the general opinion on this move isn't good, but I personally disagree, and it's still something unique to it). All the wallbreakers have something unique over the others, and while I can definitely see where you're coming from regarding Sucker Punch I'm not wholly convinced that it makes her "too good" compared to "really good" considering her competition has other useful roles that she lacks, and two of them have significantly less issues dealing with Substitute while Mawile both can't play around it and potentially enables its use.

 

[BAKAResh]

M-Mawile has priority. M-Heracross doesn't care about Substitute/Sturdy/Focus Sash/Counter and Skill Link gives it a more consistent chance to break through defense boosts via crits. It also has bulk on a ridiculous level even without investment (252 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 268-320 (89 - 106.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO). M-Gardevoir has an extensive support movepool with moves such as Taunt, Will-o-Wisp, Destiny Bond, etc. as well as the ability to hit through Substitute. M-Medicham has ridiculous coverage that entirely denies safe switchins, the High Jump Kick that destroys worlds, and Fake Out (I know the general opinion on this move isn't good, but I personally disagree, and it's still something unique to it). All the wallbreakers have something unique over the others, and while I can definitely see where you're coming from regarding Sucker Punch I'm not wholly convinced that it makes her "too good" compared to "really good" considering her competition has other useful roles that she lacks, and two of them have significantly less issues dealing with Substitute while Mawile both can't play around it and potentially enables its use.

The thing about Mega Mawile's pros that it has over what other wallbreaking mega does not have is the typing to come in and set up. SubFP or SubSD or SD 3Atk or Subsplit (yes it has been tried, not popular but still seen). They are all threatening. Mawile picks its checks and that itself makes it an EXTREMELY DANGEROUS THREAT.

But honestly, after laddering a bit on the suspect ladder, it feels like what ItoI6 said a while back is very true.

 

[Shounen]

In my opinion Sucker Punch is not hard to play around, as it fails as long as you are not using an attacking move. A bulky set- up sweeper such as Poison Heal Swords Dance Gliscor (it exists) walls it to hell and back thanks to huge Defense and resists to common attacks that M-Mawile carries such as Focus Punch and Stone Edge and can damage it with STAB +2 Earthquake
+2 188+ Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 452-534 (148.6 - 175.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In contrast:
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 127-150 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- 5.1% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
Gliscor can easily set Swords Dance up with its great Defense, access to residual healing and Substitute against any set that Mega Mawile uses and doesn't even need a Swords Dance set to beat him 1-1: 0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 170-204 (55.9 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Just so someone doesn't try to discredit me later, this is Mega Mawile's strongest attack against Gliscor:
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 171-202 (48.3 - 57%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
OU Ban to Scorpion Bait in three seconds. Where is your ban now?

What is this? Who runs 188 Adamant Glis? And if someone is carry SubPunch, they're gonna hit you w/ that Play Rough next turn buddy. Also, you aren't carrying a +2 calc for Mawile, while you carry one for Gliscor. Furthermore, one check doesn't mean that a pokemon should be kept unbanned. It's like saying Kyogre should be OU because Gastrodon or Ludicolo can counter it.

 

[Turducken64]

The issue I find with mega maw is how easy it is to get a sub or sd under its belt through the use of extremely powerful priority, intimidate prior to mega evolving, godly typing and pretty good bulk.

Sucker punch although unreliable can actually help mega maw by making opponents not want to attack it straight up giving it even more setup opportunities if the mega maw player can predict properly. The amount of 50/50s caused by mega maw are slightly less than aegislash but arguably more meaningful as a wrong prediction often leaves the opponent down a mon or something seriously dented for something else to clean later in the game. The 50/50s this thing causes with sucker punch and SD/Sub is pretty scary. A misprediction by the opponent facing mega maw often costs them a pokemon or losing a check to another threat on the mega maw players team. The 50/50s mega maw causes are slightly in the mega maw players favour as often even if maw can't straight up sweep due to a misprediction the holes it opens allows another mon to clean from there on. All in all the 50/50s maw causes are slightly less than aegi but more meaningful due to the sheer power and decent bulk maw has.

The 50/50s don't even take into account something like the lack of counters this thing has as well as how easily it can get past by switching one of its moves thanks to its great movepool. Last but not least maw wins an incredible amount of 1v1 situations if played smartly and what it can't beat 1v1 it can switch out to blast stuff at a later date or blast hole in it for something other to exploit it.

Here are some replays from balloon rotoms rmt which uses wobbuffet to give maw opportunities to sweep.

Hide

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-145749038
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-146769219
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-147401032
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-147539110
Basically all of these replays show how with a little support maw can wreck most teams higher up on the ladder.

Overall maw is pretty broken cause it has no counters, beats a large amount of the meta 1v1, cause an unhealthy amount of 50/50s, and has an incredible amount of setup opportunities due to its stats, intimidate, and typing. This is why I think maw should be banned as it beats a large portion of the meta with very little support.

 

[Karxrida]

People were adamant about banning Aegislash, as they are about banning Mawile right now because the meta game as it was post the Deoxys bans, was undesirable and not because they are actually broken (I've already explained why I don't think that Mawile's broken in my older posts so I won't repeat myself). They think that by chopping and changing things, they can make this meta more acceptable by their standards; I don't think so. You ban stuff like Aegislash and Mawile that are "broken", pokemon that have been waiting in the shadows will become broken until they're banned too. This will go on until most of the Megas have been banned and the meta game still won't be deemed "desirable". It just seems to me that, intentionally or unintentionally, people are making this meta game more stall friendly which saddens me because, in my opinion, it defeats the purpose of this game by virtue of how boring it is. I believe in banning pokemon only if they are actually broken, and not out of some false hope of making the meta game better. Honestly, Mawile is more of a problem for stall teams than it is for balanced/offensive teams and I couldn't care less about how it discourages people from running stall. And why is every one saying that Mawile has impressive bulk? Just because it's not a freakin' Alakazam that dies from a regular STAB doesn't make it bulky. It has to Mega evolve before it can do anything (and it dare not switch in on anything except for Dragon moves) and even then, it's defenses aren't that impressive (unless you invest in them to make up for it's pitiful HP).

While I do agree that we cater to stall too much (GF clearly wants Stall dead and it becomes less viable each generation), I still believe that Mega Mawile is a problem. It is far more difficult to revenge kill than any over wallbreaker between Sub and Sucker Punch and way too easy to support. Other Megas like Zard X and Pinsir require enough support (mainly hazard removal) to keep them balanced while with Mawile you can just slap a Latias on your team and be super reckless with it since its SR resistance lets in switch in a lot.

Edit:
Jukain the entire anti ban side for Aegislash predicted Mega Hera and Cham would rise in usage :/

 

[Espurr's_Eyes]

I wouldn't normally say anything in response to random tangents like yours about stall HBK, but I actually wanna say: stall is practically unviable/non-existent in this metagame, mainly because of Hera also Gard/Cham (though those can be beaten reasonably). These Pokemon became far more popular than anyone predicted, and have caused stall without random niche crap like Doublade or whatever to be unreliable. Mega Mawile is, honestly, the least of stall's problems compared to these three which are pummeling it into oblivion. Stall is not good in this metagame, can everyone get this in their heads.

His post explains this too though. MegaHera, MegaCham and other wallbreakers are likely to be banned too if this mindset continues and then a stall meta will be a reality. It's not happening now, but it will if we keep ruining the meta by trying to make it better.

 

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It's undeniable that we have reached a metagame where not everything can be accounted for in teambuilding. Mega Mawile is not the only pokemon that has no counters or very few counters. This is an issue also shared by Mega Medicham and Mega Gardevoir, among others. It is inevitable that these pokemon have almost no counters, and revenge killing or preying on their weak defenses are the only ways to eliminate them. However, Mawile has something these other pokemon don't: an amazing defensive typing, intimidate, and very strong priority. These other super scary threats are easy bait for faster pokemon such as Greninja or priority such as Bullet Punch. With Mawile's bulk and intimidate, it can actually set up swords dance on ground types with STAB earthquake. Offensive teams can't sack something and revenge kill Mawile easily because it's very difficult to revenge kill. They are often forced to sack multiple mons sometimes to make Mawile go away. Due to the nature of what can revenge kill Mawile, the offensive team that revenge kills it will lose their momentum and often the game due to this. Balanced teams have a lot of pokemon that can often be set up bait, especially after an intimidate. Because so little can revenge kill Mawile, a well played one can almost always wreak havoc. The problem is, Mawile's coverage moves can be molded to beat anything. Fire Fang wrecks Skarmory and Ferrothorn. Iron Head smashes Venusaur. Knock Off screws Heatran switch ins. Because of the immense power this mon boasts, nothing can switch in to the right move. Of course Mawile can only run one of those in conjunction with Swords Dance, but the move that goes there can be adjusted to fit the team. To me this is what makes Mawile broken more than the bulk: the incredibly high attack stat can be abused in conjunction with a variety of coverage moves to break any stall core. Offensive teams don't care as much what the coverage move is, but they have serious issues with priority sucker punch and play rough OHKOing everything.

 

[Sun King]

His post explains this too though. MegaHera, MegaCham and other wallbreakers are likely to be banned too if this mindset continues and then a stall meta will be a reality. It's not happening now, but it will if we keep ruining the meta by trying to make it better.

That's such a slippery slope argument though. There is no way you can predict the outcome of future suspects based on the outcome of this one. I'm sick of hearing "stop catering to stall" arguments not only because I play stall, but because they're entirely founded on this slippery slope. And banning Aegislash was completely the opposite of catering to stall; it hurt stall AND balanced teams all in the name of "catering to offense". Defensive/Balanced teams actually benefitted from Aegi's presence on and the field, and they each had answers to him. Not only does this "helping stall" argument contribute NOTHING to this conversation, it's just wrong. As ginganinja said, nobody here is clairvoyant; it is completely a non-issue what the outcome of future suspects is when determining whether or not Mega-Mawile is broken or unhealthy for the metagame.

 

[Always!]

Ok, so I talked with my friends about this ban in general. We're not really crazy OU fanatics, but, we all agreed that in one day of battling, we see about 1 or 2 mawile megas. Overall, that really isn't much. Maybe it's our luck, but we also thought how you can trick about anyone with some unexpected moves on pokes or just plain good play overall. The first thing we talked about was one of my friend's volcarona. He runs a sashed flame body volcarona. So, that's a 60% chance to burn. And I'm decently certain flame body works even if the opponent has a sub, correct me if I'm wrong. Another one of my more experienced friends recommended a victini. Victini with max hp and 4 def can take a +0 sucker punch. Not well mind you, but it can take it. Oh, did I mention it learns will-o-wisp? It's a big chance to take. If you sucker and they WoW, mawile is useless. IF there's a sub up, and you aren't at +2, then the victini v-creates, the sub is gone and it lives with a bit of health. THen, 50/50 again. I understand that we probably over looked some things, but over all, we just found that there wasn't much sighting of mawile in general, and, just run a volcarona sashed. It's a set that works well normally, and if you fiery dance turn 1, sub goes away, if one at all, or pretty much OHKOs. And, volcarona takes neutral damage from fire fang if I remember right. It resists play rough and iron head too. ANd sucker punch is neutral. And add the sash on top, I don't see why it wouldn't work. Give the victini trick room and WoW, then, you can try your luck with 50/50 V creates. I get that mawile is OP, but I personally have tried it in Ubers. I use it alot in OU, but, to be honest, it does better in OU than in Ubers. Blaziken mega destroys it, adaptability mega lucario bullet punch, groudon eq, kyogre water spout. I think there's just no place for it in Ubers personally. I never had luck with it, my friends and I rarely see it, I just don't really see why everybody is all up in arms about it... Maybe my friends and I are crazy lucky or what, but really, we just don't get why there's the ban. Again, I acknowledge we may have overlooked some things, but still, in general, is it really that hard to play aroundwhen you actually do encounter it? But, just my friends' and my opinion.

Oh boy, here we go: First of all, usage doesn't equal viability. Just because you see one Mega Mawile per day, it doesn't mean it's not broken or unhealthy for the metagame. Next, your friends Volorona doesn't mean jack, as Volcorona is a decent counter to Mega Mawile's lacking stone edge (which is uncommon, but is still an option), but Volcorona is pretty meh in OU due to reasons like 4X SR weakness, among other things. Sure, it's a decent pokemon, but it shouldn't have to be relies on as your counter to Mega Mawile. Also, Sashed Flame Body is terrible, and you're relying on a burn, which is has s high chance, but keep in mind that Volcorona can't keep a sash after switching into entry hazards, which are so common, and you have to hamper your team by running a defogger/spinner, even more so for just one mediocre pokemon. Also, it isn't a 60% chance in 100, it's a 60% chance in 200, as that's part of the Gambler's Fallacy. Stalltini is something, I'll give you that, but the set you posted is atrocious with TR, and relying on 50/50's is a problem if you are attempting to counter/check it. Finally, Ubers is a banlist first, tier second, so no one really cares about Mawile's performance, there, we care about it here.

 

[Sandoori]

Ok, so I talked with my friends about this ban in general. We're not really crazy OU fanatics, but, we all agreed that in one day of battling, we see about 1 or 2 mawile megas. Overall, that really isn't much.

July OU usage stats place her at #27 in usage for the tier in general, #11 for 1825+. To put it in perspective, she's the most used Mega on the upper ladder.

The first thing we talked about was one of my friend's volcarona. He runs a sashed flame body volcarona. So, that's a 60% chance to burn. And I'm decently certain flame body works even if the opponent has a sub, correct me if I'm wrong.

Focus Sash does nothing for Volcarona, and at the point of running sash you can just turn the argument into "any sashed mon with a fire/ground move". As I mentioned a page back, bulky Volcarona is 3HKO'd at best by unboosted M-Mawile, meaning it can't be OHKO'd by a +2 one either; meanwhile it handily threatens back with fire STAB (though if you want a guaranteed OHKO you need to run Flamethrower/Fire Blast or compromise bulk with a Modest nature). The problem with Volcarona is 4x Stealth Rock weakness, meaning you need to be really aggressive about removing hazards to use it effectively (and to that point, it coming in on hazards would ruin the purpose of running Focus Sash anyway), but with rocks off the field it's a solid check.

Afaik Flame Body can burn through Sub. Though your math is off, it'd be a 51% chance for Flame Body to burn at least once over two hits.

Another one of my more experienced friends recommended a victini. Victini with max hp and 4 def can take a +0 sucker punch. Not well mind you, but it can take it. Oh, did I mention it learns will-o-wisp? It's a big chance to take. If you sucker and they WoW, mawile is useless. IF there's a sub up, and you aren't at +2, then the victini v-creates, the sub is gone and it lives with a bit of health. THen, 50/50 again.

Again, Stealth Rock's a huge problem here. Sucker Punch may not OHKO normally, but it does with rocks up. Play Rough/Focus Punch hit for 35~45% on the switch. I think in a typical scenario here Victini's probably coming in through rocks and then getting punched in the face, so now it's at ~35% HP, and then Mawile's switching out to something that can take a V-Create. If it comes in on sub it's straight-up screwed. Seems like a shaky check to me at best.

it does better in OU than in Ubers.

Uber is a banlist first and a tier second. How Mawile performs there isn't our concern.

 

[Lazybeef]

His post explains this too though. MegaHera, MegaCham and other wallbreakers are likely to be banned too if this mindset continues and then a stall meta will be a reality. It's not happening now, but it will if we keep ruining the meta by trying to make it better.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue for a ban ONLY to cater to one playstyle. That would be silly. Mawile is banworthy because it is extremely hard to wall AND hard to check thanks to sucker punch. That was why mega kanga was banned, even though it was a more obvious case. Gard, hera and medicham are all very easy to check and therefore it is pretty risky to run them as they might be deadweight vs speedier teams. This is not something you have to take into account while running mega mawile.

 

[bigkahuna07]

This is coming from someone who plays primarily on the physical copy of the game, and have been watching, and even played a bit of the competitive pokemon scene (just not much of showdown) since Ruby and saphire. As much as I don't like the ban of mega mawile, I know it needs to be done as mega mawile has one thing that IMO greatly sets it apart from the other wallbreakers involved in the pokemon metagame atm....... and that is it's amazing typing and strong priority which IMO makes it too powerful, but this is only my opinion.

 

[Bizdis]

If you ban Mawile...I don't think it'll make the metagame better is all that I'll say lol. Very little if anything will change if anything at all, and you'll have slightly less options to build a team than you did before. Nothing will get opened up and discovered in the same way the ban of aegi did for some stuff. It's for this reason that I don't really care that much about it getting banned but ill probably vote no ban for when the time comes.

This isn't why things are banned. Bans aren't there to shake up the meta, they are there to make it more healthy, so whether this leads to more variety or not is totally irrelevant.

The thing that separates Mawile from the other megas you mentioned is that it rips apart all playstyles, unlike Mega Medicham, who doesn't do well against faster teams, requires no defog support like Charizard does, and has much better offensive presence than Venusaur does.

Yeah, granted, I am aware that with the inclusion of megas, there will be a pokemon on your team which is noticeably more powerful than the others, but something which can end games just by getting up a +2, and get a kill every time it comes in is just too strong for OU.

Fine, you mentioned that it takes some intelligence to bring out Mawile's true potential, and that is a notion I agree with, Mawile is a pokemon that is easier to choke with than something like Charizard X, or Lucario/Genesect/Kangaskhan in previous metas, but that isn't a good reason why it should stay. Incidentally, you can't always rely on wcop stats to have a good idea of what the meta is like - Alomomola has a winrate of 71%, but that doesn't mean it is broken.

 

[Lord Ninjax]

I believe that yes, Mega-Mawile is broken and needs to be banned. This is what is required every gen, a testing OU phase where we identify what is broken, and send it off to Ubers. Mega Mawile is only the most recent target of this policy.

Mega Mawile is, hands down, the best Stallbreaker in the game. It has two major sets that win games: Swords Dance and SubPunch. SD has more sweeping power, and it's Sucker Punch+Play Rough give it the power to brutalise the tier after a Swords Dance. Fire Fang kills Steels like Ferrothorn, Skarmory, M-Scizor, etc., while Iron Head provides a back-up STAB against stuff that resists Play Rough, etc Azumarill.

SubPunch is equally deadly, trading the sheer power of a SD for the security of a Substitute and the ability to beat regular counters such as Heatran. Focus Punch destroys every major Non Ghost type (except maybe Lando-T and some other stuff), and mostly those fall to the combination of Sucker Punch and Play Rough. Though Mawile due to its low speed is vulnerable to a revenge kill from stuff like Specs Keldeo, the damage, especially to Stall Teams, will have been done. Mawile is an extremely powerful force in the modern metagame, that can do extreme damage even to prepared teams due to its variety and power (it essentially has a base Attack of 260 when Huge Power is taken into account) which is far bigger than Mega Mewtwo-X, one of the top threats in Ubers. Who says Mega Mawile couldn't make it there, assuming it matters to us in OU? I repeat, Mega Mawile is extremely powerful as an offensive force and should be banned.