np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Wrecking Ball [Read Post 423 for Posting etiquette]

[Century Express]

Well, to begin my point of view about Mawile, even with his low HP stat, and modest defenses, the ability to get momentum with Intimidate (which gives it great opportunities to set up with low risk involved), with the brute form to hit hard almost everything standard in the metagame in its Mega form, is one of the various forms to not only to overlook this problem, as well to make a great offensive pressure.

In addition, it has a amazing and unpredictable coverage which gives it a huge difficulty to check it, not only Stall in general, but Offensive teams as well, because when Mawile gets a decent entry, almost nothing gets a safe switch-in (with Talonflame, defensive Landorus-T, Charizard Mega-Y, and Gyarados oriented defensively being a example of a few exceptions), but even with their switch-ins, the possible support from Stealth Rock from another pokémon, and the use of Sucker Punch to revenge kill them makes it even more harder, to ensure the capacity of take down /check Mawile consistently through the match.

In the other side of the coin, defensive-oriented pokémon like Skarmory, Heatran, can't guarantee that they can get a petty good answer against Mawile, as they can be worn down by its extense coverage, in the case, Fire Fang and SubPunch, respectively. Even with Mawile not being able to check them all at the same time, it can use efficiently means of making its sets even more unpredictable, like using non-STAB coverage in Sucker Punch+Fire Punch especially to get Ferrothorn and Scizor as baits, SubSD in defensive Venusaur, and other situations. However, it's more situational and risky, but it can be effective, depending of the needs of the team.

In terms of revenge killing it directly, one of the best ways to deal with it, is bringing a pokémon that has a good resistance do Sucker Punch, but in contrast, it gaves a hard time to pass through its main moves (For example, Dark-types and Fight-types that resist Sucker Punch, just can't resist taking a Play Rough in their faces), making them out of consideration, to have a excellent check of Mawile.

The sum of its positive traits, like great power and versatility, which makes it virtually null to have a counter in the standard metagame with a correct support, convices me to think that the ban in Mawile-Mega is essential.

 

[Sandoori]

I originally only wanted to take a neutral stance in this thread, but pro-ban seems rather well-voiced thus far. As such, I'll take a stab at playing devil's advocate:

Mawile's raw power isn't unique in the tier. People love bringing up its effective base 259 Attack stat, and how difficult it is to switch into because of this. And certainly, this sounds absurd on paper. However, compare it to certain other threats in the tier...

lots of calcs

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 279-328 (81.8 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 247-292 (72.4 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 313-370 (91.7 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew (Normal type): 270-320 (79.1 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew (Water type): 354-417 (103.8 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 268-316 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 229-270 (67.1 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 230-270 (67.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 341-403 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Dragon Claw: 230-270 (67.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Note that most of these aren't even using an atk/spatk boosting nature. There are of course many other differences than just raw damage between all of these Pokes, but the point stands that Mawile's not on some pedestal of ungodly strength by itself, and certainly isn't the only thing in the tier that's brutal to try and switch into.

Next, Sucker Punch reliance. Mawile is base 50 speed. This is slower than the vast majority of the tier. 50/125/95 defenses are respectable, but it is still 2HKO'd by most neutral STAB, particularly on the special side. Its lack of recovery (outside of the rare SubSplit set) means that after using sub once or coming in on spikes once or twice, it's in OHKO range from a lot of things unless it gets first strike (and the kill) with Sucker Punch.

What this translates to:
-Many hard-hitting fast threats result in matchups that come down to guessing games; this makes Mawile inconsistent at these matchups.
-Faster threats that resist Sucker Punch, such as Keldeo and Terrakion, become highly problematic. As an extreme example, Reckless LO Mienshao (I get that it isn't OU viable, bear with me) takes 45.7~54.2% from Sucker Punch even with its piddly uninvested 65/60 defenses, and OHKOs back with HJK after Stealth Rock.

Put shortly, while Sucker Punch enables Mawile to win a lot of matchups, it also gives just as much potential for it to give away all your momentum and/or get Mawile killed. Against mons such as specs Keldeo, Mawile is pretty much forced out guaranteed if it isn't hitting them with Play Rough on the switch, at which point Keldeo is probably getting to hit something for free on the switch as well.

Some other caveats with Sucker Punch worth noting: It loses to faster priority (while all neutral or resisted, CB Scizor still 2HKOs with Stealth Rock, Azumarill hits for about 20~30% without a damage boosting item, with CB Dragonite espeed not far behind), and activating Justified may make it do more harm than good against Terrakion or Lucario, namely turning Lucario's CC into a guaranteed OHKO.

In summary, the difficulty of switching into it isn't unprecedented in the tier with the existence of mons like M-Heracross, Keldeo, Kyurem-B, and Yzard, to name a few. What sets Mawile apart from these other threats is a solid defensive typing and a powerful-yet-shaky priority move, in exchange for horrid base HP/Speed. These factors come together to make a top tier threat in the metagame for sure, but an Uber tier threat? That I'm not so sure about.

As an aside, I'd like to brush on some other checks briefly. Bulky Yzard was mentioned earlier in the thread already, so I won't talk about that. Bulky Volcarona performs similarly, being 3HKO'd by anything Mawile can throw out unboosted and even barely dodging the OHKO from +2 Sucker Punch, while being able to threaten back with potent fire STAB or even setting up on it. Flame Body is a bonus, as everything Mawile can hit it with is contact, and the burn chance is the same as Scald. I recall alexwolf mentioning this as a check for Lucario back in the M-Lucario suspect test, but Moltres can perform similarly against Mawile as well, effortlessly tanking anything Mawile can throw at it while OHKOing with uninvested Fire Blast. Unfortunately all three of these checks are lessened in usefulness thanks to 4x Stealth Rock weaknesses, but all of them are 3hko'd at best by an unboosted Mawile and handily threaten it back, so make of that what you will.

 

[Sun King]

I originally only wanted to take a neutral stance in this thread, but pro-ban seems rather well-voiced thus far. As such, I'll take a stab at playing devil's advocate:

Mawile's raw power isn't unique in the tier. People love bringing up its effective base 259 Attack stat, and how difficult it is to switch into because of this. And certainly, this sounds absurd on paper. However, compare it to certain other threats in the tier...

lots of calcs

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 279-328 (81.8 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 247-292 (72.4 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 313-370 (91.7 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew (Normal type): 270-320 (79.1 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew (Water type): 354-417 (103.8 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0+ SpD Mew: 244-288 (71.5 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 229-270 (67.1 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 230-270 (67.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 341-403 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Dragon Claw: 230-270 (67.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Note that most of these aren't even using an atk/spatk boosting nature. There are of course many other differences than just raw damage between all of these Pokes, but the point stands that Mawile's not on some pedestal of ungodly strength by itself, and certainly isn't the only thing in the tier that's brutal to try and switch into.

Next, Sucker Punch reliance. Mawile is base 50 speed. This is slower than the vast majority of the tier. 50/125/95 defenses are respectable, but it is still 2HKO'd by most neutral STAB, particularly on the special side. Its lack of recovery (outside of the rare SubSplit set) means that after using sub once or coming in on spikes once or twice, it's in OHKO range from a lot of things unless it gets first strike (and the kill) with Sucker Punch.

What this translates to:
-Many hard-hitting fast threats result in matchups that come down to guessing games; this makes Mawile inconsistent at these matchups.
-Faster threats that resist Sucker Punch, such as Keldeo and Terrakion, become highly problematic. As an extreme example, Reckless LO Mienshao (I get that it isn't OU viable, bear with me) takes 45.7~54.2% from Sucker Punch even with its piddly uninvested 65/60 defenses, and OHKOs back with HJK after Stealth Rock.

Put shortly, while Sucker Punch enables Mawile to win a lot of matchups, it also gives just as much potential for it to give away all your momentum and/or get Mawile killed. Against mons such as specs Keldeo, Mawile is pretty much forced out guaranteed if it isn't hitting them with Play Rough on the switch, at which point Keldeo is probably getting to hit something for free on the switch as well.

Some other caveats with Sucker Punch worth noting: It loses to faster priority (while all neutral or resisted, CB Scizor still 2HKOs with Stealth Rock, Azumarill hits for about 20~30% without a damage boosting item, with CB Dragonite espeed not far behind), and activating Justified may make it do more harm than good against Terrakion or Lucario, namely turning Lucario's CC into a guaranteed OHKO.

In summary, the difficulty of switching into it isn't unprecedented in the tier with the existence of mons like M-Heracross, Keldeo, Kyurem-B, and Yzard, to name a few. What sets Mawile apart from these other threats is a solid defensive typing and a powerful-yet-shaky priority move, in exchange for horrid base HP/Speed. These factors come together to make a top tier threat in the metagame for sure, but an Uber tier threat? That I'm not so sure about.

As an aside, I'd like to brush on some other checks briefly. Bulky Yzard was mentioned earlier in the thread already, so I won't talk about that. Bulky Volcarona performs similarly, being 3HKO'd by anything Mawile can throw out unboosted and even barely dodging the OHKO from +2 Sucker Punch, while being able to threaten back with potent fire STAB or even setting up on it. Flame Body is a bonus, as everything Mawile can hit it with is contact, and the burn chance is the same as Scald. I recall alexwolf mentioning this as a check for Lucario back in the M-Lucario suspect test, but Moltres can perform similarly against Mawile as well, effortlessly tanking anything Mawile can throw at it while OHKOing with uninvested Fire Blast. Unfortunately all three of these checks are lessened in usefulness thanks to 4x Stealth Rock weaknesses, but all of them are 3hko'd at best by an unboosted Mawile and handily threaten it back, so make of that what you will.

I certainly appreciate your respectful tone--something people arguing anti-ban haven't been so effective at utilizing thus far. You're correct that power alone isn't enough to ban--nor is power unique to Mawile. What is unique, however, is Mawile's typing. Steel/Fairy typing (alongside respectable physical bulk) allows mawile to switch in to so much of the metagame. Things like Mega Pinsir, Mega Heracross, and Mega Medicham don't have the luxury of switching in half as easily as Mawile. Additionally, Mawile resists SR. This greatly increases its lifespan--especially when you compare it to the Megas you referenced.

Also, the three checks (I'm including Y-Zard since you referenced him) you mentioned have a 4x weakness to SR. If that's the case, the amount of pressure you can apply to those teams is absolutely insane. All you need to do is keep SR up. Hell--even the threat of SR is enough to apply pressure. I don't find those checks to be particularly convincing, especially when you look at the overall viability of them. Volcarona is more or less outclassed this generation; Moltres is outclassed this generation; and Bulky Y-Zard is a massively inferior set. Charizard-Y would MUCH rather be putting its game-breaking power to better use.

 

[Anjunadeep]

I originally only wanted to take a neutral stance in this thread, but pro-ban seems rather well-voiced thus far. As such, I'll take a stab at playing devil's advocate:

Mawile's raw power isn't unique in the tier. People love bringing up its effective base 259 Attack stat, and how difficult it is to switch into because of this. And certainly, this sounds absurd on paper. However, compare it to certain other threats in the tier...

lots of calcs

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 279-328 (81.8 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 247-292 (72.4 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 313-370 (91.7 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew (Normal type): 270-320 (79.1 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew (Water type): 354-417 (103.8 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0+ SpD Mew: 244-288 (71.5 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 229-270 (67.1 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 230-270 (67.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 341-403 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Dragon Claw: 230-270 (67.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Note that most of these aren't even using an atk/spatk boosting nature. There are of course many other differences than just raw damage between all of these Pokes, but the point stands that Mawile's not on some pedestal of ungodly strength by itself, and certainly isn't the only thing in the tier that's brutal to try and switch into.

Next, Sucker Punch reliance. Mawile is base 50 speed. This is slower than the vast majority of the tier. 50/125/95 defenses are respectable, but it is still 2HKO'd by most neutral STAB, particularly on the special side. Its lack of recovery (outside of the rare SubSplit set) means that after using sub once or coming in on spikes once or twice, it's in OHKO range from a lot of things unless it gets first strike (and the kill) with Sucker Punch.

What this translates to:
-Many hard-hitting fast threats result in matchups that come down to guessing games; this makes Mawile inconsistent at these matchups.
-Faster threats that resist Sucker Punch, such as Keldeo and Terrakion, become highly problematic. As an extreme example, Reckless LO Mienshao (I get that it isn't OU viable, bear with me) takes 45.7~54.2% from Sucker Punch even with its piddly uninvested 65/60 defenses, and OHKOs back with HJK after Stealth Rock.

Put shortly, while Sucker Punch enables Mawile to win a lot of matchups, it also gives just as much potential for it to give away all your momentum and/or get Mawile killed. Against mons such as specs Keldeo, Mawile is pretty much forced out guaranteed if it isn't hitting them with Play Rough on the switch, at which point Keldeo is probably getting to hit something for free on the switch as well.

Some other caveats with Sucker Punch worth noting: It loses to faster priority (while all neutral or resisted, CB Scizor still 2HKOs with Stealth Rock, Azumarill hits for about 20~30% without a damage boosting item, with CB Dragonite espeed not far behind), and activating Justified may make it do more harm than good against Terrakion or Lucario, namely turning Lucario's CC into a guaranteed OHKO.

In summary, the difficulty of switching into it isn't unprecedented in the tier with the existence of mons like M-Heracross, Keldeo, Kyurem-B, and Yzard, to name a few. What sets Mawile apart from these other threats is a solid defensive typing and a powerful-yet-shaky priority move, in exchange for horrid base HP/Speed. These factors come together to make a top tier threat in the metagame for sure, but an Uber tier threat? That I'm not so sure about.

As an aside, I'd like to brush on some other checks briefly. Bulky Yzard was mentioned earlier in the thread already, so I won't talk about that. Bulky Volcarona performs similarly, being 3HKO'd by anything Mawile can throw out unboosted and even barely dodging the OHKO from +2 Sucker Punch, while being able to threaten back with potent fire STAB or even setting up on it. Flame Body is a bonus, as everything Mawile can hit it with is contact, and the burn chance is the same as Scald. I recall alexwolf mentioning this as a check for Lucario back in the M-Lucario suspect test, but Moltres can perform similarly against Mawile as well, effortlessly tanking anything Mawile can throw at it while OHKOing with uninvested Fire Blast. Unfortunately all three of these checks are lessened in usefulness thanks to 4x Stealth Rock weaknesses, but all of them are 3hko'd at best by an unboosted Mawile and handily threaten it back, so make of that what you will.

Just pointing out that this is by far the best argument against the mawile ban.
I want to say though, that most good users of mawile run 202 speed EVs to outspeed uninvested threats somewhere around base 70 that would otherwise expect to outspeed it and kill it, as everyone knows sucker punch is rather unreliable.
Also would it be wrong to say tank megachomp is a check to mawile? I mean:

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 292-344 (69.5 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 147-173 (35 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 362-428 (143 - 169.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 362-428 (119 - 140.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

MegaChomp outspeeds even with 0 speed EVs, and KOs with EQ. It's also a much more viable spread than bulky ZardY, moltres and the like, while also being an efficient wallbreaker. And while max HP mawile is the usage spread for some stupid reason, it's not the best spread by any means.

 

[Srn]

I originally only wanted to take a neutral stance in this thread, but pro-ban seems rather well-voiced thus far. As such, I'll take a stab at playing devil's advocate:

Mawile's raw power isn't unique in the tier. People love bringing up its effective base 259 Attack stat, and how difficult it is to switch into because of this. And certainly, this sounds absurd on paper. However, compare it to certain other threats in the tier...

lots of calcs

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 279-328 (81.8 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 247-292 (72.4 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 313-370 (91.7 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew (Normal type): 270-320 (79.1 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew (Water type): 354-417 (103.8 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0+ SpD Mew: 244-288 (71.5 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 229-270 (67.1 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 230-270 (67.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 341-403 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Dragon Claw: 230-270 (67.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Note that most of these aren't even using an atk/spatk boosting nature. There are of course many other differences than just raw damage between all of these Pokes, but the point stands that Mawile's not on some pedestal of ungodly strength by itself, and certainly isn't the only thing in the tier that's brutal to try and switch into.

Next, Sucker Punch reliance. Mawile is base 50 speed. This is slower than the vast majority of the tier. 50/125/95 defenses are respectable, but it is still 2HKO'd by most neutral STAB, particularly on the special side. Its lack of recovery (outside of the rare SubSplit set) means that after using sub once or coming in on spikes once or twice, it's in OHKO range from a lot of things unless it gets first strike (and the kill) with Sucker Punch.

What this translates to:
-Many hard-hitting fast threats result in matchups that come down to guessing games; this makes Mawile inconsistent at these matchups.
-Faster threats that resist Sucker Punch, such as Keldeo and Terrakion, become highly problematic. As an extreme example, Reckless LO Mienshao (I get that it isn't OU viable, bear with me) takes 45.7~54.2% from Sucker Punch even with its piddly uninvested 65/60 defenses, and OHKOs back with HJK after Stealth Rock.

Put shortly, while Sucker Punch enables Mawile to win a lot of matchups, it also gives just as much potential for it to give away all your momentum and/or get Mawile killed. Against mons such as specs Keldeo, Mawile is pretty much forced out guaranteed if it isn't hitting them with Play Rough on the switch, at which point Keldeo is probably getting to hit something for free on the switch as well.

Some other caveats with Sucker Punch worth noting: It loses to faster priority (while all neutral or resisted, CB Scizor still 2HKOs with Stealth Rock, Azumarill hits for about 20~30% without a damage boosting item, with CB Dragonite espeed not far behind), and activating Justified may make it do more harm than good against Terrakion or Lucario, namely turning Lucario's CC into a guaranteed OHKO.

In summary, the difficulty of switching into it isn't unprecedented in the tier with the existence of mons like M-Heracross, Keldeo, Kyurem-B, and Yzard, to name a few. What sets Mawile apart from these other threats is a solid defensive typing and a powerful-yet-shaky priority move, in exchange for horrid base HP/Speed. These factors come together to make a top tier threat in the metagame for sure, but an Uber tier threat? That I'm not so sure about.

As an aside, I'd like to brush on some other checks briefly. Bulky Yzard was mentioned earlier in the thread already, so I won't talk about that. Bulky Volcarona performs similarly, being 3HKO'd by anything Mawile can throw out unboosted and even barely dodging the OHKO from +2 Sucker Punch, while being able to threaten back with potent fire STAB or even setting up on it. Flame Body is a bonus, as everything Mawile can hit it with is contact, and the burn chance is the same as Scald. I recall alexwolf mentioning this as a check for Lucario back in the M-Lucario suspect test, but Moltres can perform similarly against Mawile as well, effortlessly tanking anything Mawile can throw at it while OHKOing with uninvested Fire Blast. Unfortunately all three of these checks are lessened in usefulness thanks to 4x Stealth Rock weaknesses, but all of them are 3hko'd at best by an unboosted Mawile and handily threaten it back, so make of that what you will.

Okay, lemme try and refute this actual argument (kudos btw, its an actual argument O_O that's a pretty big step up for this thread)

I made a post on page 6 or so if you want to refer to that but basically what it said is this:
When you give a wallbreaker like mega mawile a way to deal with offense (priority) it becomes a problem.
Its the combination of power (which isn't uncommon as you pointed out) and strong priority (not a lot of mons) AND a boosting move (down to azu, pinsir, and the suspect herself) which make her so incredibly good.

You say sucker punch is inconsistent, but honestly, that's part of what makes it so unhealthy!
Like, why is a steel fairy even have a chance to win against a goddam garchomp?
Assuming mega mawile didn't lol set up on it so garchomp wouldn't be intimidated, EQ is a pretty clean OHKO
Its like watching mega heracross beat char-y 1v1, even if its inconsistent, IT'S POSSIBLE! And that's why mega mawile is so dumb.

I can agree that the above part about sucker punch makes mega mawile inconsistent, and yeah, that sucks. But as long as there's a chance for a goddam mega mawile to beat a garchomp which really shouldn't happen in the first place, then I can and have (like a lot of other tour players) accepted the certain level of risk that comes with relying on sucker punch, and as we can see, since we're suspecting the damn thing, the inconsistency of sucker punch doesn't hold it back THAT much.

Besides, unless the opponent has sub, you have 8 tries to win a 50/50, and your opponent has 1. Its still kind of in your favor.

 

[Anjunadeep]

*snips for my own convenience*
You say sucker punch is inconsistent, but honestly, that's part of what makes it so unhealthy!
Like, why is a steel fairy even have a chance to win against a goddamn garchomp?
Assuming mega mawile didn't lol set up on it so garchomp wouldn't be intimidated, EQ is a pretty clean OHKO
Its like watching mega heracross beat char-y 1v1, even if its inconsistent, IT'S POSSIBLE! And that's why mega mawile is so dumb.

I can agree that the above part about sucker punch makes mega mawile inconsistent, and yeah, that sucks. But as long as there's a chance for a goddam mega mawile to beat a garchomp which really shouldn't happen in the first place, then I can and have (like a lot of other tour players) accepted the certain level of risk that comes with relying on sucker punch, and as we can see, since we're suspecting the damn thing, the inconsistency of sucker punch doesn't hold it back THAT much.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 172-203 (48 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 296-350 (97.3 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Possible, yes, assuming the garchomp had taken prior damage somehow, and the 19.7% chance of mawile living the earthquake comes into play, assuming this is a max HP mawile (which isn't good tbh) , and also assuming the mawile will get the 2HKO after surviving the EQ (it's almost 90% so it's more likely).

That's iffy and all, but don't the scales tip in garchomp's favour? And a lot of such very "iffy" circumstances happen in everyday play, like maybe, RNG goes such that scizor may live the odd fire punch, or medicham lives the odd draco meteor, and they go on to KO the threats with them? I understand the sucker punch gives up skill for luck, but it can go both ways too, and lets not forget that no matter how much smogon tweaks the game, RNG will always make or break battles.
And yes, if mawile got something like a 100% chance to hit sucker punch or a physical priority STAB I think we can all say for sure that it would've been tested a lot earlier if that were the case. So sucker punch does in fact make or break it's presence in OU.

I think we can just ban RNG tbh let such circumstances pass by calling them part of life brah. No seriously, I'd definetly play an "OU no RNG/hax" OM.

 

[Yuy]

Besides, +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 292-344 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO. And that's a max HP Magnezone. Yeah, a well played Magnezone can pose a threat for Mega-Mawile but it's not a reliable switch in, at all. A resisted Play Rough does up to 42% while Fire Fang does ~75% and there's always the threat of Focus Punch. Not to mention that Modest, Specs Magnezone isn't even guaranteed to OHKO Mawile with Thunderbolt.
You should not let Sableye burn your Mawile anyaway, provided that you have something to switch into an obvious Will o Wisp. But yeah, as stated multiple times, Sableye doesn't beat Mawile unless the Mawile user makes some dumb play or tries to overpredict.

There are other +2 mons that deal the same kind of damage and have priority and also it's general knowledge not to let things get burnt. With 50 base speed M-Maw isn't switching in and out much like Thundy potentially could or something with more speed. With that, we should realize that the way the game is played is you can: wear it down and revenge it, send in a sucker resist(fighting types are so common and sucker doesn't kill everything), or try to bulk something and kill it. The issues there are you could potentially lose momentum, but maw needs a specific spot to get things done both situationally and in terms of where the match is(beginning, middle, end). Naturally if it's to the point in the game there's no way left for your team to take it down it sweeps, which is what sweepers do. My point is despite the calcs and whether or not maw is beaten or hard checked, that the way the game is played today, you make plays and get kills and bulk or sac what you can to get the job done. Plenty of mons at +2 require this, not just maw.

 

[Bizdis]

Personally, I think that Mawile should be banned, and that this is a clear-cut decision. If anyone disagrees with me, and hasn’t used it yet, I implore you to do so.

Mawile has many things going for it, and good typing is just one of them. Points about it being able to hit like a truck have already been made, but I’m here to talk about just how easy it is to win with this thing. My personal favourite set is the SD set, and I’ll explain why in just a moment. Not only does Mawile not have any true counters, meaning it can realistically get a kill every time it comes in, but +2 Sucker Punch deals massive damage to bulky non-resists, it OHKOs Garchomp for example.

Essentially, the point I am getting at is not only does Mawile make breaking unbelievably easy for another threat to sweep, but it can also set up with extreme ease using its strong physical bulk + typing and intimidate to top it all off. Just for reference, Mawile survives a -1 ScarfChomp Earthquake.

As long as Mawile exists on a team, there is a very clear and easy way to set up a wincon.

Mawile does have weaknesses, true, but not enough to the point where having it on a team needs you to run lots of support for it. This is nothing like Charizard X where you need to have stealth rocks off of the field before you can even bring it in. In fact, it is quite the contrary as it resists stealth rock, and has some very good resists. That isn’t to say that I don’t recommend running support for it though, as it pairs very nicely with HW Latias I feel, and can also work well with heal bell support, but just to say that running Mawile on a team doesn’t restrict your other choices at all.

Regarding Mawile’s moves, it tends to use similar ones on all of its sets, but it is still a problem. STAB Play Rough and Sucker Punch give it a strong way to break and clean up. Fire Fang, Knock Off, Iron Head are all good options for the last slot, letting it take out whichever threat you want which beats the first two moves. This isn’t as varied as something like Genesect, true, but when neutral Play Rough makes even bulky mons go up in smoke, there isn’t really any need for a massive variety of moves, and at the same time it has just enough moves to make nothing a safe switch in.

Mawile has strong stat distribution, and although its speed is an issue, it has just enough to creep some common defensive pokemon and 2HKO them on the switch, such as Quagsire and Slowbro, and it can destroy fast offensive threats with Sucker Punch. While I realise that VenuTran has been brought up multiple times, it can run Focus Punch to hit Heatran on the switch, and Iron Head for Venusaur, meaning that a player can break this core if they so choose to run the specific moves. Really, making mistakes such as keeping Mawile in on a pokemon that common uses Will-O-Wisp is not a good argument for it staying, just because this might be an easier pokemon to choke away doesn’t mean that it isn’t OP in the hands of a semi-decent player.

I realise that this has been a lengthy post, but because Mawile is one of the S rank pokemon I am more experienced with, I felt like I should make it. Just a quick summary, as I realise not everyone will want to read the entirety of this post:

1) It breaks very easily for another wincon – note that this is not a valid reason to ban something on its own
2) It is a very easy to set up wincon of its own
3) It is relatively independent, and doesn’t require specific team mates to deal with its downsides
4) If a particular “counter” (put in quotation marks because those on the pro-ban side know that it has none) becomes too common, it can run a move in its fourth slot to beat it
5) Stupid chokes such as letting things like Char Y hit it with Flamethrower, or Sableye get off a Will-O-Wisp are not things that a skilled player would do, so this is a bad argument.

Essentially, what we have here is a pokemon that is relatively splashable, although I realise it does take up the mega slot, forces the opponent to make very risky plays if they don’t want it to get a kill every time it comes in, and can also clean up weakened teams with ease. Mawile puts the opponent in an unfavourable situation every single time it comes in, and applies such massive pressure to all playstyles, making it a clear case of being unhealthy for the metagame.

 

[Nozizaki]

I'm one of those people who like to take the stance of innocent until proven guilty, and while all these calcs are nice, that's all they are: calcs. I'd like to see a replay or video that truly showcases what exactly makes Mega Mawile "broken". Because, while at +2 or behind a sub, it has very few good switch ins, having played with one, I was underwhelmed. In fact, I thought Mega Mawile was outclassed by several other Megas. I'd take heavy damage setting up, due to it's slow speed and reliance on offensive force outs, and then be easily picked off by any type of priority. And although the calcs are down right terrifying, those only happen if Mawile is played incorrectly. I'd like to see a situation where a player is put in a lose-lose scenario, due to Mawile. This is all I ask, then I will assuredly stop having a middle opinion and get behind a ban.

 

[CopperCooper13]

Mega Mawille deserves the ban, It is impossible to counter. It beats HO late game with Sucker Punch, It kills everything in stall, and it does the same to balanced teams. It has 259 base attack which is just stupid. I am all for a ban. The only real argument for it not to be banned is that it has to depend on sucker punch to get KOs.
Although stall teams will become a lot more popular with Mega Mawille gone which is not good :(.

 

[G-Beast]

Going to be touching on some things I mentioned in my previous post, which you can find here https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...posting-etiquette.3514144/page-3#post-5647881
as well as elaborating on it a bit, and some other stuff. This is all just my thoughts on the matter. I often refer to Mega Evolutions as their base form, so any time I say Mawile I mean Mega Mawile

First off, I want to reiterate the point that Mega Mawile suffers from four slot move syndrome. No matter what set you run, there will always be something that will give you great trouble. This does not mean for one second that Mega Mawile cannot play around those(and please keep in mind the fact that I mentioned this; none of these are 100% foolproof unless I claim otherwise), especially SubPunch, Swords Dance or SubSwords Dance sets, but it is undeniable that there will be more than one Pokemon that will threaten you once the coverage move you lack is revealed, which potentially allows Pokemon such as Scizor(mega or normal) or Gyarados, who can also notably be a problem for Salamence whom is a good teammate for Mawile, to reliably switch in and either defeat or force Mawile out. This is very similar to Swords Dance Lucario back in DPP; the choice between Stone Edge, Ice Punch, Crunch or Bullet Punch would reflect its counter, however the unknown of what that fourth moveslot was occupied by was terrifying but perhaps not to the degree of Mega Mawile... until we get in to Mega Lucario.

I believe that comparing Mega Mawile to Mega Lucario is relevant in this conversation, bearing in mind that Mawile is much more predictable than Lucario with its inability to run a specially based set, because Mega Lucario also suffered from four slot move syndrome.. but one wrong prediction often meant half or more of your team would be lost. Very much the same can happen with such a misprediction on Mega Mawile, but due to its predictability(in the sense that it is always physical and carries Play Rough and Sucker Punch) there are more preventative and counter measures that can be taken when attempting to deal with it, and this is where I will get in to some VALID Pokemon that can or at least have a much better chance than the rest of the cast to deal with Mega Mawile properly and(hopefully) safely. Keep in mind I am simply present Pokemon that are noticeably better at dealing with Mega Mawile and I am in no way saying it is or is not broken, just adding to the conversation.

Physically defensive Rotom-W is the first thing that comes to my mind when I think of ways to deal with Mega Mawile as the most it can muster on it is a substantial 82.2% from a predicted Focus Punch and while that can seem like a lot, which frankly it is, the following turn is when we realize that Mawile is in now in danger of being burned without a chance to finish Rotom-W off which puts the ball in the opponents court and forces a decision from Mawile. If Mawile chooses to stay in it risks being burned to finish off Rotom-W with another move with Play Rough being a pretty good chance and Focus Punch being near guaranteed, however either attack is guaranteed to finish Rotom-W off if Stealth Rock is up. Essentially, no matter what move that an unboosted Mawile chooses to use will prevent Rotom from switching in safely as not even Mawile switching in to Outrage can stop this as it will stop the Outrage, but coming in after one of your Pokemon has fallen to Outrage renders this strategy ineffective unless Mawile immediately KOes the opposing Outrager. Unfortunately Rotom-W is the only Pokemon that has more uses than countering Mega Mawile that I could find that, barring critical hits on boosted moves, has nothing to fear from Mega Mawile while also beating or crippling it.

Standard 252/252 Impish Hippowdon is the next thing that I think of when it comes to countering Mega Mawile, though this is a riskier one it fares better chances than Skarmory while still being able to counter/check other threats. At +2 Hippowdon has a 6.3%, which Stealth Rock increases to a 43.8%, chance to fall to a +2 Play Rough which makes it of vital importance to switch Hippowdon in before or as Mawile attains a boost. If the switch is made before or as Hippowdon switches in(basically switching in to Swords Dance if Mawile uses Substitute before Swords Dance, though this puts it at risk of a OHKO from Earthquake) Mawile then has to choose between switching out(which I prefer) or taking a minimum of 65.1% from Earthquake. The former keeps Mawile safe but allows your opponent control of the battle's flow at that point, possibly allowing for a free turn of Stealth Rock setup, while the latter will leave your Mawile at risk of being revenge killed at the cost of a very low chance of OHKOing. Mawile could in theory run Ice Punch for a much more reliable chance for it to beat Hippowdon one-on-one since it is a bit faster but this seems like too niche of a choice to me and will still most likely leave Mawile vulnerable to revenge killing unless you manage to predict the switch in which, once again, works both ways. One risk worth nothing is that a predicted switch in from Hippowdon could beg for a Focus Punch prediction(or from behind a substitute, also with prediction) that can pose a lot of danger to Hippowdon, but this is getting in to the prediction wars which can work either way. I feel as though this is more clear-cut and does not elaboration due to Hippowdon's less than expansive movepool(not that it needs anything else).


Impish RestTalk Gyarados can switch in to Mawile lacking Stone Edge, which is rare to see on them, and Phaze it out with Roar or stop it from setting up with Taunt. It could also finish off a weakened Mawile with Waterfall, or Earthquake with offensive variants but they cannot reliably switch in to a Mawile that has acquired a Swords Dance boost. This all makes it a less reliable than the previous two, however, and should not be relied upon.

 

[CopperCooper13]

All I really want to say here is that Mega Mawile is the biggest reason why some pokemon like Charizard X run EQ in a nutshell... it's just too hard to kill. I usually have to run a physical wall on most of my teams to counter this beast. 50/125/95 defenses are really hard to crack as well. It gets insane priority, a cool typing, large stats, and a huge movepool. I'm all for banning.

Besides, many of it's "counters" are destroyed by it's varied movepool. Ferrothorn? Destroyed by Fire Fang. Heatran? Destroyed by Focus Punch. Adding on to that,
Mawile is the reason Physical Heatran has made an appearance. That SHOULDN'T exist. I'm all for ban.

Although I agree with your statement that Mawillite should be banned, there are a couple things that you were wrong about. Def. Heatran came in the meta game with ZardX and talonflame also, not just mega mawile. Zard X does not run eq for mawille, it runs it for aegi and heatran.

 

[bad trainer no. 1]

Yeah Mawile's got power leaking out of her ass, but that doesn't always equate to brokenness. Currently the hardest hitting poke in OU, yeah, and nothing can really safely switch in, but you can say the same thing about Mega Hera and Mega Medicham, who are both faster and hit just as hard if not harder due to higher-powered STAB attacks. It's not hard to keep Mawile in check with literally anything faster that learns Will-O-Wisp or resists Sucker Punch. SubPunch is the only set really that teeters on the edge of brokenness, and even then it's not stupidly hard to phase out. There are other viable walls in OU besides Skarmory, you know -- Hippowdon comes to mind. Raw power alone just isn't enough to warrant a ban imo.

Keep in mind though that both mega hera and mega medicham get checked by talonflame's priority brave bird, mega mawile resist that quite well and can retailiate with sucker punch, if it is behind a sub or set up an SD it is guaranteed to win against talonflame

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 218-257 (73.1 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(218, 221, 223, 226, 228, 231, 233, 236, 239, 241, 244, 246, 249, 251, 254, 257)

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 436-513 (146.3 - 172.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(436, 441, 446, 451, 456, 461, 466, 471, 477, 482, 487, 492, 497, 502, 507, 513)

 

[chaizaeng]

Keep in mind though that both mega hera and mega medicham get checked by talonflame's priority brave bird, mega mawile resist that quite well and can retailiate with sucker punch, if it is behind a sub or set up an SD it is guaranteed to win against talonflame

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 218-257 (73.1 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(218, 221, 223, 226, 228, 231, 233, 236, 239, 241, 244, 246, 249, 251, 254, 257)

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 436-513 (146.3 - 172.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(436, 441, 446, 451, 456, 461, 466, 471, 477, 482, 487, 492, 497, 502, 507, 513)

A really good set for Talonflame is the choice-band-set and with that it can survive a Sucker Punch and retaliate with a Flare blitz.
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 218-257 (73.1 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 390-458 (128.2 - 150.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Rajikaru]

A really good set for Talonflame is the choice-band-set and with that it can survive a Sucker Punch and retaliate with a Flare blitz.
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 218-257 (73.1 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 390-458 (128.2 - 150.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Alright, but in which logical situation will that happen bar Mawile being the last alive Poke?

Let's say that the player doesn't sack to switch TFlame in, and instead tries to switch it in. Options here are:

Mawile user predicts the switch-in, and sets up a Substitute: Tflame is taken out by 2 Sucker Punches.

Mawile predicts switch-in, uses a different move: All possible moves Mawile can use combined with the Sucker Punch will kill the Tflame before it can even do anything, even Swords Dance has this effect.

 

[jvl101993]

A really good set for Talonflame is the choice-band-set and with that it can survive a Sucker Punch and retaliate with a Flare blitz.
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 218-257 (73.1 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 390-458 (128.2 - 150.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That's great, except you lose if Mega-Mawile uses Swords Dance or Sub on the switch. Talonflame is a pretty shaky check to Mega-Mawile, and it can only take one unboosted hit. You can always revenge-kill, except the Mega-Mawile user can just switch out AND it costs the opponent a Pokemon in the first place.

 

[CactusCacti]

So I recall having had brought out support weakness argument before but I'd like to pitch in on Encore a bit:
Have people here considered this move and usen it more? Having Mawile locked into sub, SS or sucker punch would be rather ideal conditition to make it cry, wouldnt it?
Not only for mawile alone, but for locking tanks/walls too.

But really, investing a tiny bit in speed + encore on Azumarill (for exsample due of it usualy having a slot open for a filler) could make for a really intresting way to make mawile less of a threat for your team + for support.
I am bit surprised that support use can be a bit low in OU nowdays.

 

[jvl101993]

So I recall having had brought out support weakness argument before but I'd like to pitch in on Encore a bit:
Have people here considered this move and usen it more? Having Mawile locked into sub, SS or sucker punch would be rather ideal conditition to make it cry, wouldnt it?
Not only for mawile alone, but for locking tanks/walls too.

But really, investing a tiny bit in speed + encore on Azumarill (for exsample due of it usualy having a slot open for a filler) could make for a really intresting way to make mawile less of a threat for your team + for support.
I am bit surprised that support use can be a bit low in OU nowdays.

Having to run Encore on Azumarill removes the viability of CB and is illegal with AV. Yes, that helps somewhat against Mega-Mawile (does Encore even go through Subs?), but that means you're having to run a niche move and make a Pokemon sub-optimal. That sounds pretty centralizing to me. Also...

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 334-394 (82.6 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Azumarill doesn't exactly have natural recovery, so it's not going to enjoy taking a Play Rough anyway and won't be able to switch in more than once. And even if Mega-Mawile does get Encored, again, it can just switch out, and the threat has still not been dealt with.

 

[TengenAce]

If you're talking about Azumarill in this instance, why not just attack instead of wasting a turn using encore? Assuming Azumarill got a safe switch in, it'll be 2HKO'd by Play Rough (Or can possibly be straight up OHKOd if coming in on rocks), meaning it has 2 turns to do something. Encore locking Mawile into a move isn't the most optimal way to spend your time in there before you die, unless you're specifically sacrificing Azu to lock Mawile into Play Rough or something so you can bring out a Poke to resist it (And even then, switching is a thing. Meaning that Mawile got a pretty easy kill and only had to switch out after). That's still not an optimal solution to the problem.

 

[HBK]

People were adamant about banning Aegislash, as they are about banning Mawile right now because the meta game as it was post the Deoxys bans, was undesirable and not because they are actually broken (I've already explained why I don't think that Mawile's broken in my older posts so I won't repeat myself). They think that by chopping and changing things, they can make this meta more acceptable by their standards; I don't think so. You ban stuff like Aegislash and Mawile that are "broken", pokemon that have been waiting in the shadows will become broken until they're banned too. This will go on until most of the Megas have been banned and the meta game still won't be deemed "desirable". It just seems to me that, intentionally or unintentionally, people are making this meta game more stall friendly which saddens me because, in my opinion, it defeats the purpose of this game by virtue of how boring it is. I believe in banning pokemon only if they are actually broken, and not out of some false hope of making the meta game better. Honestly, Mawile is more of a problem for stall teams than it is for balanced/offensive teams and I couldn't care less about how it discourages people from running stall. And why is every one saying that Mawile has impressive bulk? Just because it's not a freakin' Alakazam that dies from a regular STAB doesn't make it bulky. It has to Mega evolve before it can do anything (and it dare not switch in on anything except for Dragon moves) and even then, it's defenses aren't that impressive (unless you invest in them to make up for it's pitiful HP).

 

[CactusCacti]

(more of a reply to the two on last page about encore + azu)
Azumaril was merely an exsample really. And yes Encore goes through subs, I am surprised this is not a common knowledge by now.
Encore would be most optimal in use to make mawile:

A) Waste 25% hp on sub, as if mawile attempts to focus punch after setting up sub, encore will lock it to sub instead of focuspunch when its tightening its focus.
B) Lock it to either swords dance or sucker punch. Attempted sucker punch on encore will lock it up. Attempting to hit hard against something faster with encore than it when swords dance has been used before will lock it to swords dance.

Assuming Mawile will try to setup as it scares off your weakened mon, tossing in your encore user would now be giving out its best use as the above two are valid scenarios.

And fuck, if you want to go nitpick on azumarill encore, just use encore and your choice band. If it has speed investment fool the foe once, making the common smart player stop attempting setups, the next time it thinks it can play smart by rough playing right away (which wont KO when rocks arent up unlike +2 which will then you leave at the "WELP IT HAS +2 AND SUCKER PUNCH FOE IS ME") it will have to eat this in relation:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 196-232 (64.4 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
which could be a fair trade off/Sacrifice considering if you have used encore even more to fuck up the foes other mons too. Or you can just fuck whatever with it if you want to.
Ofcourse you could attack right away and then take +2 play rough and then deal with the sucker punches at +2 again or something like that.

Bottom line: Encore oughta bring an extra factor on the field which will bring in the question is it smart to waste turns on failing setups or play safe?

Tho azumaril was a bad exsample anyway which ill admit when I could've just said gardevoir, as its even bigger bait for sucker punches.
Encore the fucker enough and its too afraid to use its setups. encore the foe's walls, they become also too scared to use their seed leechings and the like.

If you know how to use this move you oughta know what I'm talking about here.

 

[Jukain]

I wouldn't normally say anything in response to random tangents like yours about stall HBK, but I actually wanna say: stall is practically unviable/non-existent in this metagame, mainly because of Hera also Gard/Cham (though those can be beaten reasonably). These Pokemon became far more popular than anyone predicted, and have caused stall without random niche crap like Doublade or whatever to be unreliable. Mega Mawile is, honestly, the least of stall's problems compared to these three which are pummeling it into oblivion. Stall is not good in this metagame, can everyone get this in their heads.

 

[Bizdis]

People were adamant about banning Aegislash, as they are about banning Mawile right now because the meta game as it was post the Deoxys bans, was undesirable and not because they are actually broken (I've already explained why i don't think that Mawile's broken in my older posts so I won't repeat myself). They think that by chopping and changing things, they can make this meta more acceptable by their standards; I don't think so. You ban stuff like Aegislash and Mawile that are "broken", pokemon that have been waiting in the shadows will become broken until they're banned too. This will go on until most of the Megas have been banned and the meta game still won't be deemed "desirable". It just seems to me that, intentionally or unintentionally, people are making this meta game more stall friendly which saddens me because, in my opinion, it defeats the purpose of this game by virtue of how boring it is. I believe in banning pokemon only if they are actually broken, and not out of some false hope of making the meta game better. Honestly, Mawile is more of a problem for stall teams than it is for balanced/offensive teams and I couldn't care less about how it discourages people from running stall. And why is every one saying that Mawile has impressive bulk? Just because it's not a freakin' Alakazam that dies from a regular STAB doesn't make it bulky. It has to Mega evolve before it can do anything (and it dare not switch in on anything except for Dragon moves) and even then, it's defenses aren't that impressive (unless you invest in them to make up for it's pitiful HP).

I don't agree with this post at all. The Aegislash ban lets wallbreakers such as Gardevoir, Heracross, and Medicham become more common, that is actually extremely detrimental to stall. Some stall players were actually worried about whether their preferred playstyle would even be viable with these three becoming more common. We're not short of wall breakers and stall breakers anyway, even if this, Charizard X, AND Landorus get banned, the above three, Mega Garchomp, Stall breaker Gengar, and Kyurem-B all really threaten stall.

Many people on the pro-ban side, myself included, have said that one of Mawile's main strengths is that it rips through Stall, Balance, and HO teams with +2 Sucker Punch or Play Rough, so it hits hard and causes massive problems for all playstyles, not stall in particular.

Everyone is saying Mawile has impressive bulk because with the intimidate boost, Mawile takes physical hits better than a Skarmory with the same investment:
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 160-190 (59 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 219-258 (72.7 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Obviously, nobody actually uses 120/0 Skarm (hopefully), but nobody would dare dispute Skarmory's physical bulk, and I think this should just demonstrate how easy to it is to set up with Mawile, if you play smart and wait for the late game to mega evolve, to take advantage of the intimidate boost.

Here are some damage calcs that you can expect to see in an average game, just to prove I'm not posting calcs from a contrived vacuum (I don't think anyone would take that calc seriously out of context):

-1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 204-242 (75.2 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 182-216 (67.1 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Just have a look at this one:
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 88-105 (32.4 - 38.7%) -- 98.7% chance to 3HKO

Fine, Mawile might not have amazing special bulk, but when you can take STAB SE hits on the physical side, it isn't hard to set up at all, and once you do, you can rip apart teams pretty easily. Alternatively, you can just go for breaking moves right from the start, not bothering with SD at all, and easily set up the wincon for something else.

Mawile clearly brings way too much to the team against all playstyles, and this makes it unhealthy.

 

[The Bravest Bird]

(more of a reply to the two on last page about encore + azu)
Azumaril was merely an exsample really. And yes Encore goes through subs, I am surprised this is not a common knowledge by now.
Encore would be most optimal in use to make mawile:

A) Waste 25% hp on sub, as if mawile attempts to focus punch after setting up sub, encore will lock it to sub instead of focuspunch when its tightening its focus.
B) Lock it to either swords dance or sucker punch. Attempted sucker punch on encore will lock it up. Attempting to hit hard against something faster with encore than it when swords dance has been used before will lock it to swords dance.

Assuming Mawile will try to setup as it scares off your weakened mon, tossing in your encore user would now be giving out its best use as the above two are valid scenarios.

And fuck, if you want to go nitpick on azumarill encore, just use encore and your choice band. If it has speed investment fool the foe once, making the common smart player stop attempting setups, the next time it thinks it can play smart by rough playing right away (which wont KO when rocks arent up unlike +2 which will then you leave at the "WELP IT HAS +2 AND SUCKER PUNCH FOE IS ME") it will have to eat this in relation:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 196-232 (64.4 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
which could be a fair trade off/Sacrifice considering if you have used encore even more to fuck up the foes other mons too. Or you can just fuck whatever with it if you want to.
Ofcourse you could attack right away and then take +2 play rough and then deal with the sucker punches at +2 again or something like that.

Bottom line: Encore oughta bring an extra factor on the field which will bring in the question is it smart to waste turns on failing setups or play safe?

Tho azumaril was a bad exsample anyway which ill admit when I could've just said gardevoir, as its even bigger bait for sucker punches.
Encore the fucker enough and its too afraid to use its setups. encore the foe's walls, they become also too scared to use their seed leechings and the like.

If you know how to use this move you oughta know what I'm talking about here.

I think your overselling it here - you can't just slap on encore on your team that easily. The only viable users of encore that are ranked on the viability thread are Wobbuffet, MAYBE Mega Alakazam(dk, never used it), MAYBE Quagsire(can't really forgo anything though) and MAYBE Mega Gardevoir(which should be using taunt or will-o-wisp). Yeah, its a solid support move, it has the potential to halt mega maw for a bit, but its teammates can definitely deal with these four mons, with mega zam and garde being stupidly frail physically, quagsire not being too hard to handle, and the omnipresence of dark moves(knock off) keeping wobbu at bay(wobbu puts in work when used well though), and you can't just slap it onto everything.

I want to address the 4MSS argument, but I'll do so at a later time.

 

[HBK]

I wouldn't normally say anything in response to random tangents like yours about stall HBK, but I actually wanna say: stall is practically unviable/non-existent in this metagame, mainly because of Hera also Gard/Cham (though those can be beaten reasonably). These Pokemon became far more popular than anyone predicted, and have caused stall without random niche crap like Doublade or whatever to be unreliable. Mega Mawile is, honestly, the least of stall's problems compared to these three which are pummeling it into oblivion. Stall is not good in this metagame, can everyone get this in their heads.

Gardevoir/Medicham, like you said, can be dealt with and stall is still viable because Heracross isn't that common since it's not as good against offense/balance as it is against stall and the former is more common in this meta game. What I meant to say is that I fear that the rest of the pokemon threatening stall (as well as other play styles) just might be suspected after this.

I don't agree with this post at all. The Aegislash ban lets wallbreakers such as Gardevoir, Heracross, and Medicham become more common, that is actually extremely detrimental to stall. Some stall players were actually worried about whether their preferred playstyle would even be viable with these three becoming more common. We're not short of wall breakers and stall breakers anyway, even if this, Charizard X, AND Landorus get banned, the above three, Mega Garchomp, Stall breaker Gengar, and Kyurem-B all really threaten stall.

Many people on the pro-ban side, myself included, have said that one of Mawile's main strengths is that it rips through Stall, Balance, and HO teams with +2 Sucker Punch or Play Rough, so it hits hard and causes massive problems for all playstyles, not stall in particular.

Everyone is saying Mawile has impressive bulk because with the intimidate boost, Mawile takes physical hits better than a Skarmory with the same investment:
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 160-190 (59 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 219-258 (72.7 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Obviously, nobody actually uses 120/0 Skarm (hopefully), but nobody would dare dispute Skarmory's physical bulk, and I think this should just demonstrate how easy to it is to set up with Mawile, if you play smart and wait for the late game to mega evolve, to take advantage of the intimidate boost.

Here are some damage calcs that you can expect to see in an average game, just to prove I'm not posting calcs from a contrived vacuum (I don't think anyone would take that calc seriously out of context):

-1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 204-242 (75.2 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 182-216 (67.1 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Just have a look at this one:
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 88-105 (32.4 - 38.7%) -- 98.7% chance to 3HKO

Fine, Mawile might not have amazing special bulk, but when you can take STAB SE hits on the physical side, it isn't hard to set up at all, and once you do, you can rip apart teams pretty easily. Alternatively, you can just go for breaking moves right from the start, not bothering with SD at all, and easily set up the wincon for something else.

Mawile clearly brings way too much to the team against all playstyles, and this makes it unhealthy.

Like Heracross, LO Kyurem-B, Taunt Gengar and Mega Garchomp aren't as good against other play styles as they are against stall and these tests seem to be doing away with pokemon that can deal with stall as well as offensive/balanced teams. To those who misunderstood my post, I'm not saying that Mawile shouldn't be banned because it will strengthen stall, I've already explained why I don't think it's broken in my previous posts.