Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

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Okay don't hate on me for this but I'm nominating Solrock for D-Rank.



Physically Defensive Solrock is actually a pretty solid stop to birdspam due to the fact that it gets reliable recovery, Will-o-wisp, and also Levitate, which is something no other birdspam stop can boast(ChestoResto and Pain Split doesn't count, Rotom). It takes birdspam hits about as well as the next best birdspam counter, Rhyperior does, and is approximately as physically bulky as Rotom-Wash(50/105 to 70/95).

Eye Opening Calcs:

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 99-117 (28.7 - 34%) -- 1.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 238-281 (69.1 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Solrock is guaranteed to survive a +2 Close Combat after rocks, can switch in to any Pinsir that hasn't set up and beat it(unless Mold Breaker EQ probably but who does that anyways).

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 268-316 (61.7 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

-Rhyperior take the hit a little better and is far bulkier but is worn down by birdspam a lot easier


A big plus over Rhyperior, it is worn down less easily because it gets Moonlight. Also, it can set up rocks nicely on the predicted Pinsir/Talonflame switch. At this point I'd like you to look how fucking based he looks floating around all high and shit.
 
Magnezone==> B/B+ I've been using Magnezone a lot recently and I've found it to be quite excellent in the current metagame. Its ability to trap and KO Pokemon such as Skarmory, Scizor, and ferrothorn is pretty valuable in the current metagame, as removing these Pokemon can pave the way for Pokemon such as Diggesrby and Pinsir to sweep, as well as help Pokemon such as Gardevoir, Latias, and Azumarill accomplish their roles. Besides that, it isn't entirely useless after its trapped the opponents Steel-types, as it can check Pokemon like Mega Pinsir and weakened Mega Gardevoir w/ a Choice Scarf

Mandibuzz==> B+ Mandibuzz is a lot worse with Aegislash gone. It loses to common Pokemon such as Mega Gardevoir, Mega Mawile, and Terrakion and has a weakness to Stealth Rock. The main reason I think it should be moved to B+ instead of A- is that I find it to be overall worse than Skarmory due to its worse defensive typing and lack of Sturdy and support moves like SR and Spikes.

Diggersby==> A This probably won't get much support, but I find diggersby to be on par with most of the other mons ranked in A. Its insane power gives it very few safe switch-ins. It sits at a nice speed tier, allowing it to outspeed and OHKO mons like Rotom-W and Mew after an SD and QA is a nice tool to weaken/KO offensive mons like Latias and Starmie. I've found diggesrsby to pair up well with a lot of sweepers like Mega Pinsir and Gyarados because it can often weaken the aforementioned Pokemon's checks, allowing them to clean up later in the game. It has some issues with skarmory, but that can easily be remedied with support from Magnezone.

Other changes I support
Mew==> A
Mega Heracross==> A
Mega Gardevoir==> A
Mega Medicham==A
Gothitelle==B-
Amoonguss==> A-
Tornadus-t==>A-
 
I back the Tornadus-T motion, it is really good at what it does. It can slot in as a Special Attacker for Birdspam Teams, threatening all Physical walls not named Skarmory. It makes a great pivot for Rain Offense, Bulky Offense, and VoltTurn teams with Hurricane (cause lets face it who wants to take a 30% chance that their mon will escape a ton of damage and confusion? Pretty much no-one). Only support it really needs is a defogger or spinner to keep rocks off the field, and it can even pivot them in nicely thanks to Regenerator. It's amazing at keeping up momentum thanks to Hurricane, (Birdspam is dangerous for a reason) along with Knock Off and U-Turn to threaten stuff like Thundurus and Chansey. It can revenge kill a ton of stuff thanks to its speed tier (1 point below Greninja), and threatens a lot more with its movepools: Walls and Offensive mons alike. There's a reason this thing was Uber last gen and it's not just rain. Tornadus-T for A-
 

Aragorn the King

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Magnezone==> B/B+ I've been using Magnezone a lot recently and I've found it to be quite excellent in the current metagame. Its ability to trap and KO Pokemon such as Skarmory, Scizor, and ferrothorn is pretty valuable in the current metagame, as removing these Pokemon can pave the way for Pokemon such as Diggesrby and Pinsir to sweep, as well as help Pokemon such as Gardevoir, Latias, and Azumarill accomplish their roles. Besides that, it isn't entirely useless after its trapped the opponents Steel-types, as it can check Pokemon like Mega Pinsir and weakened Mega Gardevoir w/ a Choice Scarf

Mandibuzz==> B+ Mandibuzz is a lot worse with Aegislash gone. It loses to common Pokemon such as Mega Gardevoir, Mega Mawile, and Terrakion and has a weakness to Stealth Rock. The main reason I think it should be moved to B+ instead of A- is that I find it to be overall worse than Skarmory due to its worse defensive typing and lack of Sturdy and support moves like SR and Spikes.

Diggersby==> A This probably won't get much support, but I find diggersby to be on par with most of the other mons ranked in A. Its insane power gives it very few safe switch-ins. It sits at a nice speed tier, allowing it to outspeed and OHKO mons like Rotom-W and Mew after an SD and QA is a nice tool to weaken/KO offensive mons like Latias and Starmie. I've found diggesrsby to pair up well with a lot of sweepers like Mega Pinsir and Gyarados because it can often weaken the aforementioned Pokemon's checks, allowing them to clean up later in the game. It has some issues with skarmory, but that can easily be remedied with support from Magnezone.

Other changes I support
Mew==> A
Mega Heracross==> A
Mega Gardevoir==> A
Mega Medicham==A
Gothitelle==B-
Amoonguss==> A-
Tornadus-t==>A-
I agree w. everything except Mandy and Torn and am kinda iffy about Goth + Diggersby.

I think mandibuzz deserves A- instead of B+. Yes, on stall it's worse than starmory due to everything you mentioned. However, with access to much better mixed bulk, Knock Off + Foul Play, and better speed, it's able to, in my opinion, fit on balanced and bulky offensive teams much easier than Skarmory. Defog is obviously fantastic, foul play deters setup and helps it counter Mega Scizor, among other things, and Knock Off, in addition to the special bulk, helps it counter Landorus w/o rocks and check landorus w/ rocks. In addition to Landorus, it also checks/counters Excadrill, Garchomp, Mega Garchomp, Mega Scizor, Scizor, non ID-scolipede, Breloom, Bisharp, and Landorus-T, which are all between A+ and A-. Maybe I'm slightly overhyping it, idk, but for its amazing bulk and ability to serve as a gluemon on balanced and bulky offensive teams, I think Mandibuzz should drop to A-, not B+. It should drop, since comparing it to Rotom-W, Gliscor, and Hippowdon is silly, but I think comparing it to Mega Garchomp, Scizor, and Scolipede (the only three mons that imo really belong in B+ is also kinda silly.

Also, I agree w. TRC when he said Magnezone and Gothitelle are very similar. The support they provide is very unique and comparable, and I agree that they deserve the same ranking. If we rise Magnezone, which I think we should, I think Gothitelle should stay at B. People are very biased against goth due to the stupid scarf set, but the specs set is still good and pairs excellently Mega Gyarados, an S worthy threat.

e: okay yeah, mag > goth. what alexwolf has concluded is fine, as long as goth doesn't drop anymore.

I agree that the three wallbreaking megas + Mewgod deserve A, since they're pretty phenomenal. I also think the three main regenerators should rise (fish, bro, and shroom), since they're so good on defensive teams right now. Similarly, I agree that it's time for quaggod to be demoted. It's still good on stall, it's just usually overshadowed by bro (fighting/psychic resist for cham), alomomola (wish), and suicune (wincon). Unaware is still good, and a B ranking, the same as Lucario, Starmie, and Manectric, reflects its level of effectiveness.
 
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Ok so I heard TRC say that Magnezone should be in the same rank as Goth, who he nominated for B- rank. TRC, please, could you explain why Magnezone shouldn't move up? You said so yourself that one of the reasons Goth isn't so good now is because it's now facing lots of competition from other stalllbreakers. Magnezone's a trapper, sure, but is it a stallbreaker? Not really. While Magnezone does make a strong specs user, I prefer the Scarf set as not only does it trap everything I need it to, but it also acts as a reliable check to birdspam and becomes an awesome revenge killer. To me, I feel the biggest difference between Goth and Magnezone is their usefulness against multiple play styles. While Magnezone can dent both offence by checking a lot on the team and stall by trapping things like Ferro and Skarmory, to me Goth is normally deadweight when I face offence. It's either too slow or not powerful enough depending on the set. This is why I'm heavily agaisnt putting them in the same rank. Putting Gothitelle in B- and Magnezone in B+ due to how well it pairs with powerful Pokemon in the meta unlike Goth and everything else I've already said makes sense to me.
 

alexwolf

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Aragorn the King said:
Also, I agree w. TRC when he said Magnezone and Gothitelle are very similar. The support they provide is very unique and comparable, and I agree that they deserve the same ranking. If we rise Magnezone, which I think we should, I think Gothitelle should stay at B. People are very biased against goth due to the stupid scarf set, but the specs set is still good and pairs excellently Mega Gyarados, an S worthy threat.
Scarf Magnezone is much more useful than Specs Gothitelle, due to its ability to provide defensive synergy and outspeed and OHKO many dangerous Pokemon, such as Mega Gardevoir, Mega Pinsir, Keldeo, and Talonflame. It also has Volt Switch, another very important tool that doesn't make it a momentum killer, unlike Gothitelle, which is great considering how you can OHKO Skarmory after SR without even the need to stay in, locked to a single move. And all this while having ample of trapping targets, such as Excadrill, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, Bisharp, and even Heatran if you really want to (Specs Modest HP Ground does 78% min to SpD Heatran), at least one of which is found on almost every single team. Magnezone is much less niche than Gothitelle and deserves to be ranked higher, but B+ is too much, so B is the perfect place for it, if Gothitelle drops to B- (which it will).
 
Ok so I heard TRC say that Magnezone should be in the same rank as Goth, who he nominated for B- rank. TRC, please, could you explain why Magnezone shouldn't move up? You said so yourself that one of the reasons Goth isn't so good now is because it's now facing lots of competition from other stalllbreakers. Magnezone's a trapper, sure, but is it a stallbreaker? Not really. While Magnezone does make a strong specs user, I prefer the Scarf set as not only does it trap everything I need it to, but it also acts as a reliable check to birdspam and becomes an awesome revenge killer. To me, I feel the biggest difference between Goth and Magnezone is their usefulness against multiple play styles. While Magnezone can dent both offence by checking a lot on the team and stall by trapping things like Ferro and Skarmory, to me Goth is normally deadweight when I face offence. It's either too slow or not powerful enough depending on the set. This is why I'm heavily agaisnt putting them in the same rank. Putting Gothitelle in B- and Magnezone in B+ due to how well it pairs with powerful Pokemon in the meta unlike Goth and everything else I've already said makes sense to me.
I was using the assertion that Gothitelle should move down based on the fact that it is similar to Magnezone, irrelevant to a potential Magnezone rise. However, based on the posts in this thread I am currently inclined to believe that Magnezone is more useful than Gothitelle in terms of the targets it traps and how well it traps them; B Rank for Magnezone and B- Rank for Gothitelle seem like appropriate rankings at this stage in the metagame.
 
I agree w. everything except Mandy and Torn and am kinda iffy about Goth + Diggersby.

I think mandibuzz deserves A- instead of B+. Yes, on stall it's worse than starmory due to everything you mentioned. However, with access to much better mixed bulk, Knock Off + Foul Play, and better speed, it's able to, in my opinion, fit on balanced and bulky offensive teams much easier than Skarmory. Defog is obviously fantastic, foul play deters setup and helps it counter Mega Scizor, among other things, and Knock Off, in addition to the special bulk, helps it counter Landorus w/o rocks and check landorus w/ rocks. In addition to Landorus, it also checks/counters Excadrill, Garchomp, Mega Garchomp, Mega Scizor, Scizor, non ID-scolipede, Breloom, Bisharp, and Landorus-T, which are all between A+ and A-. Maybe I'm slightly overhyping it, idk, but for its amazing bulk and ability to serve as a gluemon on balanced and bulky offensive teams, I think Mandibuzz should drop to A-, not B+. It should drop, since comparing it to Rotom-W, Gliscor, and Hippowdon is silly, but I think comparing it to Mega Garchomp, Scizor, and Scolipede (the only three mons that imo really belong in B+ is also kinda silly.

Also, I agree w. TRC when he said Magnezone and Gothitelle are very similar. The support they provide is very unique and comparable, and I agree that they deserve the same ranking. If we rise Magnezone, which I think we should, I think Gothitelle should stay at B. People are very biased against goth due to the stupid scarf set, but the specs set is still good and pairs excellently Mega Gyarados, an S worthy threat.

I agree that the three wallbreaking megas + Mewgod deserve A, since they're pretty phenomenal. I also think the three main regenerators should rise (fish, bro, and shroom), since they're so good on defensive teams right now. Similarly, I agree that it's time for quaggod to be demoted. It's still good on stall, it's just usually overshadowed by bro (fighting/psychic resist for cham), alomomola (wish), and suicune (wincon). Unaware is still good, and a B ranking, the same as Lucario, Starmie, and Manectric, reflects its level of effectiveness.
Very good points! I have to say that Mandibuzz is a pain to KO, especially if you don't have effective moves or least moves that can damage it well. I guess you can try to status Mandibuzz (though that's not always easy). I have to say that usually i find Mandibuzz easier to face than Skarmory, so i agree about the A- to an extent with the correct EV Spread and mixed bulk as you suggested. But i must say that Mandibuzz is more useful in fitting with different teams than Skarmory. I don't use these two Pokemon, but when i did use them, usually i had a hard time placing Skarmory in a team. I deleted Skarmory more times than Mandibuzz, but i guess the reason why i was against Mandibuzz getting the A- is for mainly being a not a setter and drawing out Pokemon (though it has its purposes), unlike Skarmory that's used for several purposes such as hazards, Defog/Whirlwind, and it has great typing, and good bulk. Madibuzz is useful to use Knock off, Foul Play, and for some reason my favorite move (that people are not using as often) Taunt! It can definitely work to your advantage, since you prevent your opponent from setting more hazards and yes Mandibuzz can work with the A- (as long as it has the team, spinners are good teammates, it also has good EV spread and moveset). So its a 50-50%. Quite frankly, not everyone uses Mandibuzz right and each have their own style.

Gothitelle and Magnezone are good in their own right. If i was given a choice, Magnezone might trump Gothitelle by a small margin. Gothitelle has good and bad uses through Showdown. If you can predict your opponent, then Gothitelle is right for you. Some people are good, while others are bad using Gothitelle; they recklessly throw Gothitelle out there and sometimes they don't even switch. In my opinion, Gothitelle's role is simply misunderstood by some players. Even though it has Shadow Tag as an ability, users will use Pokemon that are super effective, and even might have a move in one of their Pokemon whether Hidden or not to use against Gothitelle. Magnezone is great! I actually enjoy his abilities analytic/sturdy/magnet pull. With the correct moveset, Magnezone can do wonders for your party. I've seen the Choice Specs a few times, i must say its impressive with HP Fire as a move that can overwhelm other steel or grass-types. I've seen others who use utilize Analytic and trap Pokemon using T-Wave on Magnezone, so they can later KO. But in the analysis, the Choice Specs is highly preferred. Maybe they might come up with a new set? Could happen.

I don't know why the defensive trio hasn't rise yet. Alomomola, a good support/stall, which you can use Protect + Wish! You can also switch and survive a long time with Regenerator. Very useful for healing teams from what ive seen. Ive used Alomomola very few times, but i dont think ive ever lost when i used it. Some use Scald (good for status) or Knock off (knock opponent's item off). I prefer Scald. Protect + Toxic wonderful Combo to use, especially if you want to use Almomola to weaken teams. Amoonguss great with Spore, ive seen HP Fire become a trend (not sure if people used it), Giga Drain (great STAB), Foul Play, Synthesis, and Sludge Bomb all great. Pivot, Rage Power, Physically Defensive, and Defensive having great sets as well. It has a good movepool as well, the same can't be said for all grass-types. Finally, Slowbro! I actually enjoy using him the most with Heal Pulse/Slack Off, Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Scald. Lots of check moves. They can heal survive longer due to their ability and make great viable defensive Pokemon. (I hope these are the tree Pokemon you meant by fish, bro, and shroom).
 

Karxrida

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I support Magnezone moving up. Its typing and bulk gives it switch-in opportunities unlike Goth and it's actually good outside of trapping things (even if it traps less). Scarf can actually check stuff like Thundy and it still hits hard thanks to that delicious base 130 SpA, while Specs can punch some holes while maintaining momentum with Volt Switch.
 
I was using the assertion that Gothitelle should move down based on the fact that it is similar to Magnezone, irrelevant to a potential Magnezone rise. However, based on the posts in this thread I am currently inclined to believe that Magnezone is more useful than Gothitelle in terms of the targets it traps and how well it traps them; B Rank for Magnezone and B- Rank for Gothitelle seem like appropriate rankings at this stage in the metagame.
Ah I see. I mean, I am most certainly fine with Zone rising to B rank, but I just think it's capable of B+ with what it's got going for it. Sorry for the confusion.
 

Karxrida

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-> B
Celebi beats 4/6 of the S rank pokemon, can run quite a few different viable sets and has some really good support options. Its a perfect keldeo/rotom wash switch in, as well as a great switch in to thundy and landorus i. It can also comfortably hold its own against azumarill. It can run sub pass, nasty pass, nasty plot sweeper, and sp.defence bulky support pivot roles very well. It also has stealth rock. Celebi is great, but has its flaws, that the fire types, steel types ect. in OU completely stop it, as well as it being pursuit bait unless it runs pursuit
Um what?

AV Azumarill runs Knock Off and can take a hit easy (it's used as a Thundy check for crying out loud). If it is healthy enough it has no reason to not just use Knock Off and see what you do, since Giga Drain doesn't do more than 35% to the AV set listed in the preliminary dex.
Zard X murders your face.
You really can't do anything to Thundurus while it can still HP Ice (or rarely HP Flying) you back or even set up Nasty Plot in front of you. Physical sets run Knock Off.
You're a shaky Lando check. Knock Off and U-turn are not unheard of and cripple you. CM can just set up on you and muscle past you.
You're not beating Mega Mawile, period.

The only S-Rank Celebi beats is Keldeo, and it has shaky or bad match-ups with the rest while also losing to pretty much half of the A-ish ranked Mons.

How the flying fuck does Wobb deal with Stall?!?

Sylveon is not completely outclassed by Clefable because it passes bigger Wishes, can check some different things, is physically bulkier, and stronger unboosted. It also counters Sub Kyurem-B without Iron Head, which is always hilarious.
 
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Um what?

AV Azumarill runs Knock Off and can take a hit easy (it's used as a Thundy check for crying out loud). If it is healthy enough it has no reason to not just use Knock Off and see what you do, since Giga Drain doesn't do more than 35% to the AV set listed in the preliminary dex.
Zard X murders your face.
You really can't do anything to Thundurus while it can still HP Ice (or rarely HP Flying) you back or even set up Nasty Plot in front of you. Physical sets run Knock Off.
You're a shaky Lando check. Knock Off and U-turn are not unheard of and cripple you. CM can just set up on you and muscle past you.
You're not beating Mega Mawile, period.

The only S-Rank Celebi beats is Keldeo, and it has shaky or bad match-ups with the rest while also losing to pretty much half of the A-ish ranked Mons.
Celebi can stall out Knock Off AV Azumarill most of the time if Celebi is at more than 87%, or 63% if Celebi is PDef (to take the 97.5 BP Knock Off + Aqua Jet), between Thunder Wave, Giga Drain and Recover. (As long as something can be paralysed, and cannot deal more than 50% consistently, it can be stalled out)
Thundurus gets 2HKOed by uninvested Psychic after SR, while HP Flying only has a 2.7% chance to 2HKO
Celebi walls Landorus unless it has Sludge Wave or U-turn, Knock Off ones can be stalled out with Recover and Giga Drain by PDef variants
Bulky DD Zard that runs EQ over Flare Blitz gets paralysed to be neutered
So it isn't exactly wrong to say it beats 4/6 of S ranks with the right set.
Also, while Celebi has shaky matchups against many A rank mons, it does help to check tons of mons which bulky offense and balance struggle with.

However, having said that, I'd have to say that Celebi can stay in B- and not move up to B. Its biggest problem is that it cannot check everything it can theoretically check, since it is one of those Pokemons that has a huuuuuuge case of 4MSS, considering Recover, Baton Pass and Thunder Wave are pretty much mandatory on defensive sets, leaving only one of Psychic, Giga Drain or other utility moves, to check stuff, which often might be insufficient.
 
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Karxrida

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Celebi can stall out Knock Off AV Azumarill most of the time if Celebi is at more than 87%, or 63% if Celebi is PDef (to take Knock Off + Aqua Jet), between Thunder Wave, Giga Drain and Recover
Thundurus gets 2HKOed by uninvested Psychic after SR, while HP Flying only has a 2.7% chance to 2HKO
Celebi walls Landorus unless it has Sludge Wave or U-turn, Knock Off ones can be stalled out with Recover and Giga Drain by PDef variants
Bulky DD Zard that runs EQ over Flare Blitz gets paralysed to be neutered
So it isn't exactly wrong to say it beats 4/6 of S ranks with the right set.
Also, while Celebi has shaky matchups against many A rank mons, it does help to check tons of mons which bulky offense and balance struggle with.

However, having said that, I'd have to say that Celebi can stay in B- and not move up to B. Its biggest problem is that it cannot check everything it can theoretically check, since it is one of those Pokemons that has a huuuuuuge case of 4MSS, considering Recover, Baton Pass and Thunder Wave are pretty much mandatory on defensive sets, leaving only one of Psychic, Giga Drain or other utility moves, to check stuff, which often might be insufficient.
Azumarill's not going to go Knock Off then Aqua since it'll survive uninvested Giga Drains. It'll go Knock Off then Play Rough (assuming it even stays in after you reveal your only offensive move).
Fair point with Thundy, though Physical sets still manhandle you (do people still use those?).
I never said the Celebi didn't beat Lando, I just said it was shaky lol. Knock Off's still going to cripple you and you still can't break past CM since it'll probably be +1 by the time you come in and will set up until it hits +3 and it can 2HKO you with Earth Power (or +4 if you have Giga Drain).
Who the hell runs Zard X without Fire STAB? Did I not get some memo or something?
 
Azumarill's not going to go Knock Off then Aqua since it'll survive uninvested Giga Drains. It'll go Knock Off then Play Rough (assuming it even stays in after you reveal your only offensive move).
Fair point with Thundy, though Physical sets still manhandle you (do people still use those?).
I never said the Celebi didn't beat Lando, I just said it was shaky lol. Knock Off's still going to cripple you and you still can't break past CM since it'll probably be +1 by the time you come in and will set up until it hits +3 and it can 2HKO you with Earth Power (or +4 if you have Giga Drain).
Who the hell runs Zard X without Fire STAB? Did I not get some memo or something? And how are you dealing with a +1 Outrage/D-Claw if for some stupid reason it's not running Flare Blitz?
Thunder Wave on the Knock Off, Recover until you don't take damage, and Giga Drain the next turn. Repeat until Azumarill dies.
Physical Thundy still loses to PDef Celebi so long as it doesn't have a Defiant boost, or U-turn.
And several bulky DD, or stall Zard X go without Fire STAB to beat Heatran more reliably with EQ. EQ is even slashed with Flare Blitz on the first set. And a paralysed DD Zard X is much easier to deal with, which is why I mentioned you can just paralyse it to essentially neuter it.
Celebi still checks Landorus without Sludge Wave or CM pretty well, so that's that.
 

Albacore

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Nominating Starmie for B+/A-.

Yeah, I feel like Starmie should move up even more. Sure, outside of its role of spinning, Greninja outclasses it. However, spinning is a really important role, in fact, Starmie is a spinner first and an offensive water second. You're using Starmie as a spinner in the first place, so obviously you're not going Greninja over it if you need one. That being said, Starmie does have one big thing in common with Greninja, and that's the fact that nothing on Offense really switches into it. Not even AV Azu, who is 2HKO'd by Psyshock. And Starmie, unlike Greninja, actually switches in against offense (well, it switches in on one thing, but Keldeo is really common on offense, so Starmie can switch in against a lot of offensive teams.)

But that's not really important. The main point I want to make here is that Starmie is basically required on any team that wants hazard removal, but also relies heavily on keeping its own hazards up. (And no, Excadrill is not a very reliable spinner, given that it needs sand to function and getting choice-locked into Rapid Spin really, really sucks.) Now, this goes for offensive teams with suicide leads of course, but it also applies for more defensive teams. Yes, believe it or not, Starmie has a place on stall, and I'll explain why. Recently, I've seen kind of a revival of hazard-stacking stall, which was partially caused by the Aegislash ban. With Aegi gone, a lot of wallbreakers became much more popular, which caused problems for Stall teams, since they were unable to actually deal with them. A few stall teams therefore resorted to pressure to beat the opposing wallbreaker, and a great way to do this is by stacking hazards, forcing tons of passive damage on the opposing team. This is where Starmie comes in. Thanks to its Reflect Type set (which is actially a really good set and not a gimmick), Starmie can spin over every rock setter, providing reliable hazard removal, without removing the team's own precious hazards too. Tesung's Chesnaught+MAero team is a good example of how hazard-stacking stall can look like, and obviously, given that it needs a spinner, Starmie is a given on that particular team (Excadrill is not a good spinner on Stall, given that it lacks recovery and needs excessive with support, this also applies to Foretress/Tentacruel/Donphan etc... MToise is the only other truly viable spinner for stall since its bulk, power and typing makes up for its lack of recovery, but its lack of speed the fact that it takes up a mega slot makes Starmie a better choice in most cases.)

Starmie is a staple of hazard-reliant HO and basically enables spike-stacking stall to exist, therefore, I feel like it should be moved up to B+, possibly even A-
 
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Slowbro (B+) -> A- | Throwing in my support for the King of UU to move up a step in OU. Slowbro's definitely improved with the banishment of Aegislash and stands out as one of the most resilient bulky Waters in the tier thanks to access to reliable recovery in not just Slack Off, but its Regenerator Ability as well, meaning it can recover about 89.25% of its HP including Leftovers by using Slack Off and then switching out, which means that in a pinch, it can just regain all of its health and outlast entire battles. Slowbro is notable for being a good counter to Mega Medicham (unless it runs Thunder Punch, which is lol), unboosted Mega Tyranitar and a large variety of other physical threats. Its Special Attack, base 100, isn't too bad, either, which means Slowbro can run a good Calm Mind set that's incredibly hard to take down with two boosts in.
Unfortunately, Slowbro is plagued by a weakness to Dark-type moves; Pursuit users can pose big trouble to it, as well as Knock Off users such as Mega Scizor and Bisharp. With Flying Spam everywhere, Electric-types are quite common and they all have a way of beating Slowbro, be it by rapidly knocking it out, incapacitating it with Taunt or tanking its hits. Regardless of those flaws, Slowbro does the job as a bulky Water-type like no other, mainly due to how hard it is to actually get it out of the battle. Slowbro for A-.

For the record, Karxrida, Sylveon doesn't pass bigger Wishes than Clefable, since they both have base 95 HP. The only thing Sylveon has over Clefable is more power due to a stronger STAB, but overall Clefable just does the job SO much better, so I support Sylveon going down to C+.

I'm relatively indifferent on Celebi staying in B- or moving to B, since I haven't had experience using it. However, it doesn't seem too bad and indeed checks a lot of things while providing good team support. The rise in Water-types and its ability to take on Keldeo are noteworthy, so I'm more inclined on it moving to B.
 
Sylveon is not completely outclassed by Clefable because it passes bigger Wishes, can check some different things, is physically bulkier, and stronger unboosted. It also counters Sub Kyurem-B without Iron Head, which is always hilarious.
Do you mean specially bulkier?

Wobbu can encore stall or encore and bring in a set up mon which can destroy stall, e.g sd mawile, bd azum
Since Wobb is slower than most stall mons, they'll be able to choose what move they're locked into, and prevent you from setting up with your primary sweeeper.

For example, you have a Wobb in on a Chansey, and you want to set up with your mega-mawile, since chansey is outspeeding you, It will choose seismic toss, Which 3HKO's the standard 132 HP/252+ Atk/124 Spd spread that most mawile will be using, preventing you from setting up. If you choose to use counter in order to possibly ko the chansey, you've just lost your set-up bait. If your set-up sweeper has more HP, then chances are it won't like toxic very much, as in the case of Bellyjet Azu. Finally, Wob himself can't really do much to stall, and fares better against offensive teams.
 
I support Celebi going to B. With proper defensive investment, it can survive a supereffective Crunch from Ttar and cripple it with Twave or use leech seed and Leftovers to regain health
252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0+ Def Celebi: 270-318 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

With investment

252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celebi: 212-252 (52.4 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Pretty much what all the people above me said. The defensive utility it provides with Stealth Rock and natural cure, even acting as a bulky pivot with U-Turn makes it too good for B- imho. Celebi for B
 
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Okay so Clefable is definitely a much better mon overall than Sylveon. It's not a 100% better WishPasser though: Sylveon can easily go Bold max Defense and still maintain enough special bulk to switch in on the likes of Life Orb Thundurus and Greninja, which Clefable wishes it could do.

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 204-242 (51.7 - 61.4%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 218-257 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Clefable has slightly more physical bulk and good abilities in Unaware/Magic Guard but Sylveon hits harder and hits through Substitutes.

4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 158-188 (46.1 - 54.9%) -- 63.3% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 114-134 (33.3 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

That's a pretty considerable difference in damage, and overall I prefer Sylveon as a WishPasser just because it checks more things, like Sub Mega Medicham (which Sylveon always clean OHKO's while Clefable does not) and Mega Gardevoir who are rising in popularity with Aegislash gone. And guess what? Sylveon is also better now it doesn't give Aegislash a free switchin everytime. If anything it should go up because it's a very solid counter to things like Greninja, Rotom-W, regular T-tar, Lati@s, Landorus-I without Sludge Wave, Thundurus-I etc, it provides a lot of support with Wish and Heal Bell, has excellent typing and very solid offensive presence with just Hyper Voice as barring Steel-types and Mega Venu not much likes to switch in. If you go max SpDef Sylveon even counters Specs Keldeo, the epitome of wallbreaking, which again Clefable could never do.

Basically for stuff like CM sweeping and setting up Rocks Clefable is better, but Sylveon is the better choice for a WishPasser imo.
 
Ferrothorn should stay A. It can't reliably stop many of the Pokemon you have listed. CB Azumarill OHKOes with Superpower, Mega Gyarados doesn't give a damn about Gyro Ball variants (4MSS much?), Mega TTar has Fire Punch, some Mega Scizor run Superpower for things such as Bisharp and Excadrill, Kabutops threatens with Low Kick, especially after a Swords Dance. Chomp has Fire Fang/Blast and +2 Earthquake can OHKO. Bisharp resists both Power Whip and Gyro Ball lol. Some Landorus-T and Mamoswine run Superpower.

I do agree with the support movepool, however, and add Knock Off to that list. But that's not enough in my opinion to move it to A+, especially since rain is not that good anymore and there are a lot of higher-ranked Pokemon that can threaten Ferrothorn. Keep Ferro A
Uh what?
The whole fact that half these mons need to run shitty coverage (except CB Azu bc Superpower is gud) to beat Ferro is testament to how good Ferrothorn is. Not only that, but how the fuck did you come up with half those figures anyway? All the below calcs were done with a 252/88+/168 spread btw, which is my standard spread (I forget what it covers but it hasn't failed me yet) and now we can see the impressive bulk of my boy Ferro.

Ok, so CB Azumarill is a pretty good way to fuck up Ferrothorn right?
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 320-378 (90.9 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
It lives, not to mention that predicting the switch is riskier than talking to that hot chick at the bar and if you straight up switch in it's obvious af that it's Superpower Azu.


+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 220-259 (62.5 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
As you can see, not even with SR and 3 Layers of Spikes can it guarantee the OHKO so idk where you pulled that from

In fact, Ferro lives all of the coverage you mentioned quite well and as for Sharp, Mamo and Lando, I specifically said it could be an emergency check to them, and it lives all of those moves quite well, despite having to apparantly "watch out" for them.
(wow this sounds a whole lot more arrogant than I intended so this is like the definition of no offense)

While I was writing this, I realised that atm Ferro has lost a lot since Aegislash was banned. Unfortunately, without Aegi, the Wallbreaker megas, who all anally penetrate Ferro, have risen in viability greatly. I still feel that Ferrothorn is better than every A ranked mon (except TTar, who should move up) but with the meta as it is, Ferrothorn has to watch out more and cannot perform as effectively as is did during Aegi meta so, while i still believe Ferro is superior to every A rank mon and should move up, it loses to the wallbreaker Megas, who require godlike prediction to play around and thus is too close to tell but regardless the calcs above still prove how amazing Ferrothorn is at taking even unexpected SE hits.
 
Uh what?
The whole fact that half these mons need to run shitty coverage (except CB Azu bc Superpower is gud) to beat Ferro is testament to how good Ferrothorn is. Not only that, but how the fuck did you come up with half those figures anyway? All the below calcs were done with a 252/88+/168 spread btw, which is my standard spread (I forget what it covers but it hasn't failed me yet) and now we can see the impressive bulk of my boy Ferro.
How is fire coverage shitty? Its one of the best attacking types in the game and hits many important things aside from Ferro, Scizor and Skarm beeing the most important ones. What makes it even better is how incredibly effective it is against Ferro. Even without any investment a fire blast does at least 70-80% damage rendering Ferro useless for the rest of the game as pretty much everything can kill him from there. Lures are always a good thing but Ferro and Scizor are by far the easiest thing to kill with lures because they take so much damage even from weak fire moves.

Another issue is the reliance on leech seed + protect for healing. Stalling with protect is always risky because it gives free turns and kills momentum and with something like leech seed its even worse because your always in a 50/50 game. Will the opponent switch or stay in? If he stays and you use leech seed again you waste a turn (all the more if the opponent does more damage than LS + Lefties heal) and if you use protect while he switches your in big trouble. And without protect Ferro is worn down so quickly its not even funny. Ferro is absolutely no A+ material, he isnt even A material imo but thats another topic...

Yeah he is one of the main reasons why you always want to have fire coverage on one of your mons but thats all it needs to deal with him.
 
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 220-259 (62.5 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
As you can see, not even with SR and 3 Layers of Spikes can it guarantee the OHKO so idk where you pulled that from
Are you sure you don't mean this?

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 286-337 (81.2 - 95.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Also, Ferrothorn loses to Fire Fang variants. (btw, for some reason I calc'd with 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD Ferro when I said that Chomp OHKOes with +2 EQ...)



Uh what?
The whole fact that half these mons need to run shitty coverage (except CB Azu bc Superpower is gud) to beat Ferro is testament to how good Ferrothorn is. Not only that, but how the fuck did you come up with half those figures anyway? All the below calcs were done with a 252/88+/168 spread btw, which is my standard spread (I forget what it covers but it hasn't failed me yet) and now we can see the impressive bulk of my boy Ferro.
What do you mean by "half these mons need to run shitty coverage"? Mega Ttar uses Fire Punch for Bisharp, Air Balloon Excadrill and Mega Scizor, not just Ferrothorn. Superpower is a great move for Mega Scizor for pretty much the same reason (plus OHKOing Tyranitar), and it also gives M-Scizor a way to eliminate Heatran in the rain. Also, if you really hate Air Balloon Excadrill / Heatran, guess what move can take it out?

Ok, so CB Azumarill is a pretty good way to fuck up Ferrothorn right?
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 320-378 (90.9 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
It lives, not to mention that predicting the switch is riskier than talking to that hot chick at the bar and if you straight up switch in it's obvious af that it's Superpower Azu.
Still has a great chance to OHKO after SR.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 320-378 (90.9 - 107.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

In fact, Ferro lives all of the coverage you mentioned quite well and as for Sharp, Mamo and Lando, I specifically said it could be an emergency check to them, and it lives all of those moves quite well, despite having to apparantly "watch out" for them.
(wow this sounds a whole lot more arrogant than I intended so this is like the definition of no offense)
.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 382-452 (108.5 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 339-399 (96.3 - 113.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 273-322 (77.5 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(and what can Ferro do back to it?)
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 229-270 (65 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Ferrothorn CAN be weakened through residual damage, especially if it lacks Leftovers. It doesn't live those coverage moves quite well since it's almost OHKOed or straight up OHKOed. It only really beats Mamoswine and even then, it can't really switch in, especially since Icicle Crash + Superpower 2HKO Ferro.
 

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DoABarrelRoll are you serious... nobody uses lo or ffang chomp, or lo superpower landt, or sd superpower mega scizor. cb azu is p rare bc av is 1000x better on the whole (though it's not irrelevant i'll give you that).

ferrothorn's issues in the current metagame boil down to trends it has created. hp fire latis are everywhere, so ferro isn't a reliable answer to them. magnezone is everywhere to trap ferro. fire blast/flamethrower is standard on clefable, so ferro is a shitty response to any set. cc pinsir ohkoes. hp fire venu, fire punch mttar, fire punch dragonite, terrakion, stallbreaking megas...ferro is hurt by so many trends in this metagame that it has, in turn, lost some of its effectiveness. maybe a couple weeks ago i would've agreed with a+, but not now.
 
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