Gen 6 np: XY Ubers Gengarite Suspect Test - In The Shadows [READ POST #71]

[tutterydiglett]

I know this has been said like 1000000000000+ times already, but Ubers is goddamn Ubers. We use broken shit and not banning stuff is what differentiates us from other tiers. Sure this may be a bad argument, but god guys. Mega-Gengar CAN be played around (albeit kinda annoying) and every competent player should be able to play accordingly against Mega Gengar. You guys state it "limits" team building but doesn't say, Kyogre or Xerneas do the same? What's next, Xerneas suspect????

OGRE SUSPECT???

pls no

 

[Slashari]

I know this has been said like 1000000000000+ times already, but Ubers is goddamn Ubers. We use broken shit and not banning stuff is what differentiates us from other tiers. Sure this may be a bad argument, but god guys. Mega-Gengar CAN be played around (albeit kinda annoying) and every competent player should be able to play accordingly against Mega Gengar. You guys state it "limits" team building but doesn't say, Kyogre or Xerneas do the same? What's next, Xerneas suspect????

OGRE SUSPECT???

pls no

But Mega Gengar does take away skill and creates uncompetitive situations, which is the reason for its suspect. Pursuit trappers are the "best" answer we have to it, and even then, they aren't reliable. If Gengar stays in, it can't be OHKOed by M-Scizor. Assuming Gengar stays in, eats up the Pursuit, and Shadow Balls Scizor (or OHKOes with HP Fire), you're faced with a 50/50 the next turn, which removes the skill associated with the game. You can't really "play around it"; Shadow Tag traps you or causes the blind doubles as Dice said (which I guess is what people are calling "playing around it"). It's uncompetitive not only in the fact that it causes lots 50/50s (thereby removing skill), but it removes player choice (also removing skill).

The slippery slope argument has been debunked multiple times, so I won't touch that.

 

[Punchshroom]

I know this has been said like 1000000000000+ times already, but Ubers is goddamn Ubers. We use broken shit and not banning stuff is what differentiates us from other tiers. Sure this may be a bad argument, but god guys. Mega-Gengar CAN be played around (albeit kinda annoying) and every competent player should be able to play accordingly against Mega Gengar. You guys state it "limits" team building but doesn't say, Kyogre or Xerneas do the same? What's next, Xerneas suspect????

OGRE SUSPECT???

pls no

I think this speaks for itself.

But for real though, Mega Gengar works in such a way that, most of the time, it gives its user an inherent advantage, because you can't simply say you can "play around" something with those kinds of offensive stats and the ability to prevent switches. This is also Ubers we're talking about, where everything is broken as shit, yet there exists a Pokemon that automatically gives the player the upper hand. If the Mega Gengar player screws up a double switch, MegaGar can aim for a double KO with Destiny Bond, and he/she can only screw up once; if the Mega Gengar opponent screws up, he/she will likely lose a mon or two and yet another due to Destiny Bond.

I hope you see the implications here: usual worst case scenario for MegaGar is a double down; best case scenario would be multiple KOes and a double down (sometimes not even needed). That is at least one KO for both scenarios. The only real "downside" to using MegaGar is that you can't use other Megas, but at this point why the hell would you not use MegaGar? This was much of the same precedent that got Mega Kanga booted to Ubers, except Mega Kanga actually had counters (albeit less than a handful) that can prevent it from KOing shit too easily.

 

[ChaosNemesis]

PLEASE everyone: stop saying that MGar is overpowered, we really don't care about that! For the 1000th time: this is not OU and this is not a suspect to rate the impact on the metagame!!!

I really hope suspect will result in something based on competitivness and NOT on brokeness.


I personally don't think Shadow Tag or MGar are against the game. Yes it limits teambuilding but does not brake the game. If you get wrecked by Shadow Tag is due to team building decisions and result in a (dis)favorable match up. But IS NOT like swagger, ohko moves or moody that change the game based on LUCK making the game a coin flip.
To me Shadow Tag (more than only MGar) is something that make teambuilding more interesting even if it does create some coin flip during the match, but hey, this is part of the game (see every sucker punch user).

 

[OP]

First off, Ubers has never banned anything for limiting teambuilding before. I think what Mega-Gengar does, is limit teambuilding to an extreme. If the problem is Mega-Gengar always being able to take out a counter for a sweeping pokemon, then you're forced to run multiple counters or one with a Shed Shell. If the problem is that it is always able to get multiple KOes and "double down" as Punchshroom stated, then that just makes it a strong pokemon that's able to be very successful in the ubers environment. I think you are always able to teambuild around any problems you could face with Mega-Gengar and that the only legitimate argument for it not being "skillful" is that it does force many 50/50s but that's just a part of Pokemon and is seen across all the tiers in the form of sucker punch, speed ties, etc.

 

[Smogoniter]

Somebody posted before saying that the doubling that Mega Gengar causes is not skills. Here's my response to this:

Suppose (only for example purpose) that you use a team with Blissey and going up against a Mega Gengar team. You can use Blissey to bait Gengar to come out and double to something like Spec Kyogre (buffing a scarf). Gengar likely be force out and the incoming Pokemon will take massive damage from Water Sprout.

Alternately, suppose the Gengar user knows Blissey was sent out just for bait and play according, and so forth and so on.

But what makes the Blissey user think that the Gengar user will fall for the bait and what makes the Gengar user (in the alternate scenario) catch on that it is a bait?

Well. These instincts may come about because of how each player sees the other playing in previous round, they notice intrinsically if the other player is a repeater (switching the same thing over and over), alternater (alternate between one switchin and another), or randomizer (not meaning random switchin, means for instances, would switch in Palkia on Kyogre, switch in Palkia on Kyogre again, then switch in Dialga).

Moreover, in higher level play, usually players weights the risk and reward of performing a particular play. This can cause an added level of skill. Suppose the Blissey user knows that the Gengar user risk too much in not going for the bait, so the Blissey user think going for the bait is a safe play. Alternately, the Gengar user knowing that it is a safe play for his opponent will "add more on the reward scale" and so forth and so on.

I hope this clears up why the doubling cause by Mega Gengar do require skills.

- Smogoniter

 

[MeteorMiss]

Somebody posted before saying that the doubling that Mega Gengar causes is not skills. Here's my response to this:

Suppose (only for example purpose) that you use a team with Blissey and going up against a Mega Gengar team. You can use Blissey to bait Gengar to come out and double to something like Spec Kyogre (buffing a scarf). Gengar likely be force out and the incoming Pokemon will take massive damage from Water Sprout.

Alternately, suppose the Gengar user knows Blissey was sent out just for bait and play according, and so forth and so on.

But what makes the Blissey user think that the Gengar user will fall for the bait and what makes the Gengar user (in the alternate scenario) catch on that it is a bait?

Well. These instincts may come about because of how each player sees the other playing in previous round, they notice intrinsically if the other player is a repeater (switching the same thing over and over), alternater (alternate between one switchin and another), or randomizer (not meaning random switchin, means for instances, would switch in Palkia on Kyogre, switch in Palkia on Kyogre again, then switch in Dialga).

Moreover, in higher level play, usually players weights the risk and reward of performing a particular play. This can cause an added level of skill. Suppose the Blissey user knows that the Gengar user risk too much in not going for the bait, so the Blissey user think going for the bait is a safe play. Alternately, the Gengar user knowing that it is a safe play for his opponent will "add more on the reward scale" and so forth and so on.

I hope this clears up why the doubling cause by Mega Gengar do require skills.

- Smogoniter

I disagree that it requires skills. Sure, one *might* be able to spot a pattern in switching to get a slightly better chance at predicting, but with nowhere near the accuracy that you indicate here. Very few people are always "repeaters" or an "alternaters", and the "best" prediction strategy would still hardly be different from random guessing. It doesn't really matter if these double-switches are "50-50" or "51-49" -- if the worse player comes out on top 49% of the time, it's still uncompetitive.

 

[TFL]

I know this has been said like 1000000000000+ times already, but Ubers is goddamn Ubers. We use broken shit and not banning stuff is what differentiates us from other tiers. Sure this may be a bad argument, but god guys. Mega-Gengar CAN be played around (albeit kinda annoying) and every competent player should be able to play accordingly against Mega Gengar. You guys state it "limits" team building but doesn't say, Kyogre or Xerneas do the same? What's next, Xerneas suspect????

OGRE SUSPECT???

pls no

mang this tier has banned evasion boosting moves, ohko moves, and sleep clause. go play a customs or cartridge match if you're into the whole no banning thing, but some people are trying to create a balanced/fun meta here

this post goes out to all the "muh tier's integrity" people

 

[Laurel]

I haven't posted in here cause I haven't really had a while. At first I initially thought that Gengar was the biggest problem, but I think Shadow Tag is the problem. While Gengar has its broken factors, Shadow Tag Gothitelle does the same thing... Trapping defensive Arceus forms (not ghost) and Palkia is really stupid, and one of those is on basically every team so Gothitelle is rarely useless. It functions the exact same as Gengar in that it just kills something like Palkia for a Scarf Kyogre sweep. On a side note, I do think Shadow Tag Goth is a bigger problem in Ubers than in OU do to the commonness of pokemon like Arceus and Palkia. I think Gothitelle in OU sometimes struggles finding Pokemon to trap. Obviously theres always Mega Venusaur, but vs Offense it's practically useless if it's the standard CM set.

 

[9 Tales of Ninetales]

This is a massive wall of text so aesthetic hide

mang this tier has banned evasion boosting moves, ohko moves, and sleep clause. go play a customs or cartridge match if you're into the whole no banning thing, but some people are trying to create a balanced/fun meta here

this post goes out to all the "muh tier's integrity" people

The interesting thing is Ubers was never strictly a "tier" before this discussion. I know it got referred to as "the tier with the least possible bans" at some point last gen. But just based on what I see in lots of other threads and past discussion the general consensus has always been that Ubers is "a banlist first and a tier second" or something. The OKHO, Evasion, Moody, and Sleep bans simply remove the uncompetitive elements of the game so that it is still skill based, otherwise all strategies and Pokemon are allowed. As a whole Ubers does not strongly exemplify most of the qualities "tiers" strive to create in their metagames. Ubers has a very limited amount of viable variety, tons of issues with balance between possible strategies and team set ups, and is very very centralizing around the most broken of the broken (Kyogre, Xerneas, Arceus and then the next level down to a degree too.) However it is totally true that from a "tier" perspective, as bad as these traits are.. Mega Gengar makes them all far worse.

Based on how the OP is written and what the majority of the community leaders and respected members are saying this "Ubers is not a tier" reasoning is still being upheld. This reasoning you're using should be the stuff we jump on. You want to "balance a tier." The suspect test is supposedly not about how things are broken and thus ruining the "balance" of the "tier" but how they are "uncompetitive" and thus remove aspects of "skill" from the "ban list". (yeah, if you saw me irl, I full on used air quotes for all those words, so meh! :p)
After reading through this thread myself I made a lot of big statements and long posts back on page 10. And since then I've been trying to pay close attention to what people say. The thing that's making this suspect test super confusing is that not only do people want to define Ubers in different ways (a tier or a banlist) but they also seem to be relying on differentiating definitions of the word "uncompetitive" and or "skill" to boot.

Both definitions will claim: Uncompetitive elements of a game remove the affects of "skill" on a battle and make it so that "skill" difference does not largely impact who wins.
The more conservative definition of "skill" seems to be something like: Elements of the game that players are free to use that they have control over and do not rely on rng to determine winners.
The more liberal definition of "skill" is one I don't know I will totally articulate correctly but it's more along the lines of: Element of the game that players are free to use that they have control over and do not rely on rng to determine winners. AND the freedom to take any action at any point in the game and therefore the possibility to use your choices to better your position.

Obviously everything previously banned in Ubers falls under both definitions (cause it is all rng based) The issue that arises here is that Shadow Tag and M-Genagr fall into the deffiniton of "uncompetitive" but only under the liberal definition of "skill." In other words, if what this suspect test is supposed to be arguing about is how uncompetitive M-Gengar is, all it's truly asking is: "how do you personally define the infamous buzzwords 'uncompetitive' and 'skill'?"

Now, I'm calling the short definition the conservative one because in my experience this is the definition I've always seen in the past. And if you step outside of this discussion and look at other suspects going on or that have taken place it seems to me that "uncompetivie" is used to refer only to random elements of the game. This frequently extends to 50/50s or "guessing games." but not to element that make one strategy more viable than another. Honestly before reading the posts of people talking about loosing the freedom to make moves as the removal of their "skill" I had never heard of the definition extending to this meaning and that's why I'm calling this extended definition the liberal one (changing it up from the conservative past definition)

If any of you ever had the pleasure of reading the book Frindle you know that words are just meaningless noises we attach meaning to. I can't really say anything is supposed to be the proper definition of anything. However for the sake of communicating better amongst ourselves as a community I think it's a good idea we settle on something specific for a specific word.

By the conservative definition, M-Genagr is not uncompetitive. However it does bring into play the most broken strategy available to any player: Trapping and eliminating a critical check. This ruins the balance and limited variety of Ubers by making one strategy the best and thus the most central and only viable strategy worth using. However it does not (under the conservative definition) remove skill as there is still a "competition" between players to see who executes this one most broken strategy better. And that competition is not based on any random elements. And so while it destroys the limited integrity of Ubers the tier (throwing any semblance of balance out the window) it does not violate the (conservative) uncompetitive clause of Ubers the ban list.

Alternatively we can use the extended liberal definition of "skill" to classify M-Gengar as uncomeptive for using a strategy that takes away your choices and thus makes it impossible to viably win without resorting to being a dick yourself and taking away your enemy's choices too. With this definition M-Gengar is uncompetitive and so the integrity of Ubers "the ban list" is maintained as only uncompetitive elements are removed from it, but not broken ones.

Here's the thing. Either way banning Mega Gengar is a fundamental shift in how everything in Pokemon Tiering is looked at.
Trapping and eliminating critical checks is a valid strategy that does not rely on random elements. It is easily the best strategy that makes all other strategies non-viable or "less powerful" by comparison. However it employs mechanics unlike anything else used in the game and so this mechanic that is affecting what smogon has, in the past, referred to as "balance" (the relative viability of strategies and Pokemon) can sort of be swept under the rug and into the old definition of "uncompetitive" (elements that are random and out of player control)
Basically this one balance altering mechanic is unique enough that its defining properties can get tacked into the definition of uncompetitive without actually affecting how either definition applies to all the other game's mechanics. (elements that are random and out of the players control and elements that one player controls to remove the options of another player)

You see what I'm getting at here. It depends on how you're defining "skill" and "uncompetitive" but when you ban Mega Gengar you changed one of these two definitions.
Ubers: the ban list that only removes uncompetitive elements
Uncompetitve: elements of the game that are out of the player's control.

and inb4 removing options IS out of your control because it ISN'T. It's a strategy that is in the control of one player. If the other player isn't employing and controlling the same strategy it is simply because they made a bad competitive choice to not use the best strategy in the game. But it is possible for this strategy to be "in the control" of both players.

I want to point all these things out because I feel that if/when M-Gengar is banned there is a good chance that it will be washed over as "well, it was uncompetitive" But we as a community are posed with two(three?) important questions:
1) Is the balance of Ubers the tier more important than the integrity of Ubers the ban list?
2) Is Mega Gengar "uncompetitive"?
3)And what does "uncompetitive" mean? Is it only elements that are out of player control or can individual strategies be "uncompetitive" if they employ unique and game breaking mechanics that invalidate other strategies?

I personally think voters need to expend a lot of critical thought contemplating those specific questions. And I don't want people to ban Mega Gengar and not understand what they've done. Like I said above, banning Mega Gengar means one of our old definitions has changed. That is hardly a bad thing but there is a lot of gravity to it and it's something everyone should be aware of moving forward so that we understand what we've done and what kind of president we're setting here. I don't want us to come out of this thinking we banned Mega Gengar and also somehow kept all or reasoning for Ubers tiering the same (because we won't have)

Now once again. for my own subjective entry:
1) Balance is more important, the ban-list integrity is nice but this is a game and it should be fun
2) Not by the old definition which is the one I think we should stick to
3) The old Definition. I think there is a very well defined clear line between aspects that go into building a game with this many options. Extending the definition of "uncompetitive" in this new liberal way blurs the line between what we consider balance and what we consider skill based elements. I think avoiding that blur is useful for future reasoning and understanding of the game we play.

(by my above answer I am pro-ban but under the clause that maintaining a limited amount of balance in Ubers like a tier has become an important task for the community in order to keep the game fun and interesting. NOT becasue M-Gengar is uncompetitive)

just.... let's all try to think really hard about what these words and definitions mean, and the impact of using one definition over another.

PS: If we settle on the liberal definition of skill (which I don't think we should) then we may as well just quick ban Shadow Tag and be done with it. Because all of Shadow Tag falls under what would be our new definition of "uncompetitive" in that case. Also sorry for the wall of text.

^Make sure to open and read this though, lol, I think it's very important.

 

[tutterydiglett]

I haven't posted in here cause I haven't really had a while. At first I initially thought that Gengar was the biggest problem, but I think Shadow Tag is the problem.

yeah tbh I think we just shoulda started out with a Shadow Tag suspect but looks like that isn't happening

 

[alwayswimmin]

I'm voting to ban Gengarite (with the expectation that a Shadow Tag suspect test is following). Originally I believed that Gengar and other Shadow Tag users could be played around with by correct prediction and switching into a check. However, this switching is no more than guesswork, as it does not involve the more sophisticated risk vs. reward analysis that should be used in assessing situations.

Removing switching from the game is much deadlier in Ubers than it is in other tiers since Ubers relies on switching into much more specialized checks.

Furthermore, I don't believe that something has to be overpowered to warrant a ban. If a move/ability/pokemon is deemed to be uncompetitive, which Mega Gengar as well as trapping abilities as a whole have been shown to be, then it should be banned regardless of how viable the strategy is. This ban should be based on principle, so even if Mega Gengar and other Shadow Tag users can be played around, they should still be banned.

With this in mind, I think a ban on all trapping abilities/moves (of course, including Gengarite) is warranted. I am a little hesitant to ban Mega Gengar before suspecting Shadow Tag, however, since much of the pro-ban side isn't actually promoting a ban on a single pokemon but rather an uncompetitive strategy, and others before me have expressed concern that banning a pokemon sets a rather poor precedent, as well as contradicting Ubers philosophy.

EDIT: Other people have made the valid point that trapping moves require one-turn setup. As a result I retract my statement that trapping moves are banworthy.

 

[Minority]

some people are trying to create a balanced/fun meta here

lol, another OU player thinks we are trying to make Ubers balanced. I guess we could do that by banning all Ubers Pokemon from Ubers.

 

[Edgar]

We are trying to make it fun though.

 

[Aquaslash]

The thing about Gengar is that in order to effectively use him, you have to actually know what you're doing. It's not on the same vein as Swagger where literally all you do is swagger, foul play until dead and then send out a choice ditto if they don't kill themselves from hax. It's not like Moody and Evasion passing where you roll for that one evasion boost or get that double team out, and you're night untouchable. It's not even like OHKO where roll the dice for that move to actually hit. Unlike Gengar, against these things the opposing player is literally powerless to stop the madness. You can make all the right plays against OHKO/Evasion/Moody/swagger and still lose. You can play like a complete idiot with those strategies and still win.

Meanwhile, poor playing with Gengar will get him killed (again), due to his incredible frailty. You can't just waltz in there and try to trap anything. There's a handful of things that outspeed you, even with the mega, and there's also a whole type that is immune to your bullcrap. Extreme Killer Arceus, one of the most devastating and fearsome sweepers in the game, is running an EV spread to specifically target and kill you before you can do anything. A lot of the times you have to use tricky double switches to even get in without getting massacred.

Seems like basic BS right? Well that's the point. That basic BS is what stops Mega Gengar from being uncompetitive. Is his strategy extremely OP and limiting to teambuilding? Of course it is, but how many things in ubers AREN'T like that? Kyogre, Xerneas, Ho-oh, Arceus, Mega Kangaskhan. These are things that you HAVE to take into account while teambuilding if you want to have any chance of winning. Hell, even Zekrom is threatening enough that an entire team core exists just to force his most popular sets into 50/50s. They're still all beatable by good teambuilding and smart playing. I feel that Gengar is on an even playing field with these, and thus not uncompetitive and shouldn't be banned.

 

[TFL]

lol, another OU player thinks we are trying to make Ubers balanced. I guess we could do that by banning all Ubers Pokemon from Ubers.

Nah dont give me that shit. I've played both gens 5 and 6 ubers. The former was my fave tier while the latter is a cesspool of BS-cancer with an exacerbated team match up issue and having to coinflip guess when the STag mon is switching in. The metas with moody and evasion are better than what we've got now

 

[9 Tales of Ninetales]

I was kind of hoping the post I made last night was going to spark some intelligent dialogue that would be useful for everyone. No one seems to have really bitten though. Maybe it’s too close to the vote and everyone figures they’ve already thought all this through? Or maybe I just wrote an overwhelming amount and no one wants to bother? lol

Well, I talked to some folks on PM to satisfy my need to discuss it and I actually want to amend a few things I said. I posed the question on how we’re defining “uncompetitive,” gave my subjective opinion at the end, and then left it kind of open ended like: we should all try to think of this ourselves.
I also said this:

Basically this one balance altering mechanic is unique enough that its defining properties can get tacked into the definition of uncompetitive without actually affecting how either definition applies to all the other game's mechanics)

But after some more thought I realized, no, that’s not 100% true. Because it does affect other game mechanics…. Or rather it affects the same mechanic in other parts of the game. Trapping is something that has been around for literally more than a decade now. If one player using a controlled mechanic of the game to remove the choices of another play is uncompetitive how come no one has made that call before? How come no one looked at Arena Trap Dugtrio and said “this thing is uncompetitive”? Because it ISN’T. By the definition we’ve used for the last 10 years this is not an uncompetitive mechanic. No one gives a damn that they can’t switch out of a Dugtrio because Dugrtio has defense on par with average unevolved Pokémon and doesn’t hit all too hard without STAB and a choice band. Dugtrio has a really cool ability but it is over all Balanced. What we are dealing with here is NOT an issue of uncompetitive elements. We’re dealing with a mechanic of the game that has been around for next to forever that is now not in balance because it is on a broken Pokémon. If you try to tell me that Mega Gengar is uncompetitive because skill is the freedom to make any choice at any point in the match then you are telling me that not only M-gengar, but Shadow Tag, Arean Trap, and Magnet Pull are ALL uncompetitive elements of the game. And that they need to be removed from all tiers, right? Because every tier wants to promote healthy competition. Remember that time a Magenzone switched into you Scizor and you had no choice but to eat a HP Fire? Yeah, it turns out that was an uncompetitive move on your enemy’s part. You probably deserved to win that match because they clearly did something were skill didn’t matter. You couldn’t use your “skills” to switch out of the Magnezone.

If you are going to argue to me that I’m stupid because clearly Dugtrio isn’t uncompetitive, then now you’re contradicting yourself. Dugtrio and Gengar employ the exact same strategy. So if one of them is uncompetitive and not the other one it is obviously NOT because of the element they have in common. A.k.A the ability to trap. So what IS different about them that could make one of them uncompetitive and not the other?... One of them has all the tools to execute that strategy way better. As in, better typing, better stats Way better moves. But since when was having better moves, stats or typing uncompetitive? It hasn’t been. Like never ever… even under the new liberal extend definition of skill and uncompetitive. Having better stats moves, etc. is an example of having bad balance. As in Mega Gengar is broken but employing the same competitive element.

Evasion is uncompetitive. People are smart enough to realize that rng hands the wins to players randomly in ways completely out of their control. Swagger is uncompetitive but wasn’t banned until recently because no one was abusing it in an uncompetitive way before. If trapping were suddenly uncompetitive like Swagger we would have seen people suddenly begin to abuse it in a new way that hands wins to less experienced players. But we haven’t seen that. People are using trapping strategies the exact same way they always have only now they’re using it on a “broken” Pokémon. If someone with less skill wins this way it because they picked the better strategy and arguably that should mean they have more skill anyways. This previously balanced portion of the game is thrown out of balance. But nothing new is happening in terms of the competitive mechanics.

when I made my first few post back on page 10 I was using the word “centralization” but I should have been saying “balance” when the game centralizes around one Pokémon or strategy it is because that Pokémon or strategy is out of balance with the non central monsters and strategies.

So why does all this bother me sooooo much? I’m pro ban so shouldn’t I be okay if mega Gengar get’s called uncompetitive and is banned? To be honest I almost feel like this is all some sort of conspiracy theory or something. This suspect test is set up so that we are supposed to avoid issues of balance. We don’t care if things are “broken” everyone says, we only want to remove “uncompetitive” elements. Yet suddenly mechanics and elements of the game that fall under what has all been “balance” are being called “uncompetitive.” You know? It could be that people didn’t think the definitions through before they spoke, it could be that they’re actually consciously trying to pretend we’re removing an uncompetitive element when they know it’s an issue of balance, or most likely they appreciate the ban-list integrity of Ubers and were quick to latch onto this false idea that a balance issue is actually uncompetitive (basically the same reasoning form before only now it’s subconscious) regardless if you don’t like Mega Genagr then your issue is with the BALANCE of the game. You can’t try to label it as anything else without going back into well established definitions and mucking them up…

The definitions we’ve always used have drawn fine lines in the sand between elements and aspects of the game we play. Having these definitions actually gives us the tool to understand everything going on in the game. Classifying a part of the game that is in the control of players, that two players can both use on each other and the more skilled one will consistently win, that doesn’t rely on random elements…. Classifying that part of the game as uncompetitive breaks the definitions we always used; it blurs the line and in the future makes it impossible to tell if something is simply broken or if it is being uncompetitive for invalidating other strategies. (as in throwing off balance of strategies)

honestly it’s a little “crazy’ of me to call it a conspiracy. But I’m not having any of this. It’s really important that we are able to define the components of the game, and we are dealing with here is issues of balance. We shouldn’t be able to sweep it under the rug and pretend that removing skill now has this longer definition about removing choices and trapping is uncompetitive suddenly. And Just so that we can go on thinking that at the end of the day we kept everything competitive in Ubers and there is no precedent for banning a broken element of the game. Because that is exactly what we will have done! We will have banned something for being broken and disturbing balance. And if people get away with labeling skill this new way, with changing that definition so that suddenly it captures this one element of the game, then they had better make damn sure they go on to ban every single trapping ability in every single tier, else one simply has to look at what has and hasn’t been banned from the game, ask themselves: how come these supposedly uncompetitive elements are allowed everywhere?, and the quickly go on to realize that this additional definition of skill is a blatant lie used to remove one broken Pokémon from the highest “tier” and restore its balance while labeling it as something else….

(I feel like I need some sort of rebel’s flag. I’m seriously concerned that people will not recognize what they've done after this ban goes through)

 

[TheTabKey]

So, I've only recently gotten into Ubers (although I have lurked the Ubers forum since I joined), but after reading the post above mine, and almost every other post in this thread, I've realized something.

This isn't a suspect test of whether or not Mega Gengar or Trapping/Shadow Tag is broken, it's a suspect test, and a question, of: Is Ubers still a ban list, or is it now a tier?

The answer to that question decides whether or not Mega Gengar/Shadow Tag (or trapping moves in general) get banned.

Shadow Tag/Trapping has not been deemed uncompetitive until this gen because there was no Pokemon with a move pool and stat spread capable of abusing their respective trapping move 100% of the time until Mega Gengar came along. That does not make Shadow Tag broken or uncompetitive, that makes Mega Gengar an astoundingly good Pokemon. Which means Mega Gengar should stay if Ubers really is still a ban list.

But, if Ubers is now a real tier (which, it is, but does it retain the "ban list" integrity? Or does it now strive for balance like all other tiers?), then Mega Gengar deserves to go because of how amazingly good it does at it's job, and how reliably it does it. It creates an unhealthy presence in a balanced tier. But is this a tier yet? Or is it a ban list that bans uncompetitive aspects of the game and nothing broken?

Obviously, Mega Gengar is extremely good at it's job, reliably doing it nearly 100% of the time, and in any other tier, it would be banned. Easily banned. But is Ubers still just a playable banlist?

At the very least, some food for thought.

Off-Topic:
What would a ban list for a ban list be called? A ban list for Ubers? Ubers BL? Ubers Ubers?

 

[9 Tales of Ninetales]

So, I've only recently gotten into Ubers (although I have lurked the Ubers forum since I joined), but after reading the post above mine, and almost every other post in this thread, I've realized something.

This isn't a suspect test of whether or not Mega Gengar or Trapping/Shadow Tag is broken, it's a suspect test, and a question, of: Is Ubers still a ban list, or is it now a tier?

The answer to that question decides whether or not Mega Gengar/Shadow Tag (or trapping moves in general) get banned.

Shadow Tag/Trapping has not been deemed uncompetitive until this gen because there was no Pokemon with a move pool and stat spread capable of abusing their respective trapping move 100% of the time until Mega Gengar came along. That does not make Shadow Tag broken or uncompetitive, that makes Mega Gengar an astoundingly good Pokemon. Which means Mega Gengar should stay if Ubers really is still a ban list.

But, if Ubers is now a real tier (which, it is, but does it retain the "ban list" integrity? Or does it now strive for balance like all other tiers?), then Mega Gengar deserves to go because of how amazingly good it does at it's job, and how reliably it does it. It creates an unhealthy presence in a balanced tier. But is this a tier yet? Or is it a ban list that bans uncompetitive aspects of the game and nothing broken?

Obviously, Mega Gengar is extremely good at it's job, reliably doing it nearly 100% of the time, and in any other tier, it would be banned. Easily banned. But is Ubers still just a playable banlist?

At the very least, some food for thought.

Off-Topic:
What would a ban list for a ban list be called? A ban list for Ubers? Ubers BL? Ubers Ubers?

Cool I'm glad you're saying this, it makes me feel like I'm finally communicating the thoughts around which my very first post was based. I recommend you check it out too because it's very parallel to what you have just said. Here's the link
Anyways I think it's good when people can reach critical thoughts. And in this case I think how we define what we're doing is the critical thought. I'm glad to see you saying these things. I think the point that you and i both made starts getting lost when we begin to redefine elements of the game.

I would still be interested to hear an opposing side to what i'm saying because while I've seen many people identify trapping as an uncompetitive game element I don't think I've see anyone (other than myself) go on to try to break down these definitions, how they're changing, and why one could be better than the other. I imagine there's another side to this and I'd like to hear it. So if after reading my posts someone feels like the "liberal definition" is the correct one (the idea that elements that are player controlled but remove other players choices are uncomeptitive) I would like to hear form their side as well. things like: Why they think this definition is more appropriate, how it helps us better understand the game, and how they imagine it applies to elements of the game such as Magnet Pull.

 

[ogasian]

Gengar-Mega is unquestionably broken. Gothitelle is something I don't have much experience with and have never had any particular problems with but the general consensus among "relevant and active" Ubers players is that it's even MORE broken than Gengar-Mega. Ubers would most likely be more enjoyable without Gengar-Mega and Shadow Tag. Banning Gengar-Mega / Shadow Tag would greatly free teambuilding in a meta that already makes teambuilding difficult due to powerhouses such as Xerneas, Yveltal, Extremekiller Arceus, Zekrom, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Mewtwo, etc. It is also true that banning Gengar-Mega would fundamentally change how we view Ubers. Regardless of how Bojangles (I think) defined it, (The tier with the least bans possible), Ubers is still regarded as the tier with no bans save luck-based strategies.

The core argument of the pro-ban side is that Shadow Tag is uncompetitive as it prevents switching in the turns that a Pokemon with Shadow Tag is in play. If the principle is that anything that prevents switching is uncompetitive, then Mean Look should be banned. Whirlpool should be banned. Arena Trap should be banned. You get the point. Preventing things from switching is not inherently uncompetitve. Gengar-Mega / Gothitelle are simply extremely powerful and extremely annoying.

 

[rob.]

Shadow Tag is an uncompetitive and broken ability, and because of its effectiveness it's easy for the Pokemon with the ability to take advantage. Gengar is the perfect example of a Pokemon that's well equipped to take advantage of Shadow Tag. Gengar has a wide movepool and can utilize a number of different movesets. Then use its expansive movepool to threaten defensive teams by Perish Song trapping vital walls or seek to trap certain threats in order to make it easier for a teammate to rip through the opponents team. Gengar is extremely difficult to stop because of its versatility that's magnified by the broken ability, Shadow Tag. I don't believe Shadow Tag should be banned in Ubers because the problem is Mega Gengar. Gothielle and Wobufett are almost always overpowered after KOing one threat (I found it difficult to net more than one KO with either) because they lack the versatility, speed, and power that Mega Gengar possess'. I don't agree that Ubers should have the least amount of bans as possible since bans are levied in order to create a balanced competitive tier. If you want a balanced tier then banning Gengarite should be a no brainer.

 

[Scubasage]

Gengar-Mega is unquestionably broken. Gothitelle is something I don't have much experience with and have never had any particular problems with but the general consensus among "relevant and active" Ubers players is that it's even MORE broken than Gengar-Mega. Ubers would most likely be more enjoyable without Gengar-Mega and Shadow Tag. Banning Gengar-Mega / Shadow Tag would greatly free teambuilding in a meta that already makes teambuilding difficult due to powerhouses such as Xerneas, Yveltal, Extremekiller Arceus, Zekrom, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Mewtwo, etc. It is also true that banning Gengar-Mega would fundamentally change how we view Ubers. Regardless of how Bojangles (I think) defined it, (The tier with the least bans possible), Ubers is still regarded as the tier with no bans save luck-based strategies.

The core argument of the pro-ban side is that Shadow Tag is uncompetitive as it prevents switching in the turns that a Pokemon with Shadow Tag is in play. If the principle is that anything that prevents switching is uncompetitive, then Mean Look should be banned. Whirlpool should be banned. Arena Trap should be banned. You get the point. Preventing things from switching is not inherently uncompetitve. Gengar-Mega / Gothitelle are simply extremely powerful and extremely annoying.

Just wanted to point out the difference between Shadow Tag and moves like Mean Look, Block, Whirlpool, Fire Spin, Infestation, Magma Storm, and probably a few others I'm forgetting is the same as the difference between Evasion Increasing moves and Accuracy lowering moves.

Why is one considered ban worthy but the other isn't? Because a player can't really do anything against Evasion, but Accuracy reducing moves can be negated by just switching. IE, the ability for "counter play" lies squarely in the hands of the person on the receiving end. Moves that trap are not automatic traps upon switching in. They will ALWAYS give the opponent a turn to switch in something that has a good match up versus the trapper. Compared to abilities like Shadow Tag, Arena Trap and Magnet pull, which don't allow that switch (barring random doubles), trapping moves aren't broken or uncompetitive.

On the subject of the other abilities that trap, Shadow Tag covers a much larger group (all but 18? fully evolved pokemon...don't remember the exact number off the top of my head) than Arena Trap (any Levitate user or Flying type is immune) or Magnet Pull (which only affects Steel types).

However, that brings up the question, "so what?" If trapping on its own is uncompetitive, than all of them should go. So then, is it because Shadow Tag, by virtue of hitting a VAST amount more pokemon than the others, is too strong? IE, broken?

Its certainly an interesting dilemma...personally, I think its a mix. Like Evasion (which was banned in previous gens), the uncompetitiveness combined with how effective the strategy was is enough to push it out of Ubers. Accuracy lowering moves are just as uncompetitive as Evasion moves, given that they are effectively the same...except that Accuracy lowering moves are much weaker because of game mechanics, making the uncompetitiveness of it trivial since they're so weak.

I feel Shadow Tag is a similar case. Given that Ghost is the rarest type in the game, and the others have a much, much, much larger pool of things they can't trap, the uncompetitiveness is tempered by how weak they are. Shadow Tag, is far from weak though.

Still, this is the Gengarite suspect, not the Shadow Tag suspect, but I think the same can apply to Gengarite.

 

[Worthlessnoob]

Looking back at all the pro-ban arguments that have been stated, I think the the anti-ban side can concede defeat on the aspect of whether Shadow Tag is uncompetitive. It's obvious that people have a point when calling it uncompetitive, as instant trapping almost constantly creates 50-50s involving double switching, and can result in a bad player beating a better player. You can't really argue that 50-50s are skill-based because they are coinflips and flipping a coin is essentially all luck. There is no right choice, which is why they are called 50-50s. As such, Shadow Tag is uncompetitive because it does not promote skill and good plays.

I'm sure experienced Ubers Players (which I am not) don't like losing because of what is barely in their control since Shadow Tag prevents switching and I completely agree with banning Shadow Tag if that is it.

However, I'm still firm on the no-ban side. I'm not sure if I'm alone on this, but I do not think Shadow Tag is worthy of a ban because it is not uncompetitive enough. If you don't understand what I'm saying, it is that I do not care enough about the opponent or I using Shadow Tag. I care less about it than the opponent using SwagPlay, which I agree should have been banned.

I do not find the Shadow Tag so uncompetitive to the point where it needs to be banned especially since we would be banning an entire forme of a mon. It's not as if there's a fine line for when something is too uncompetitive, but there exists other things in Ubers that are uncompetitive. Sucker Punch is uncompetitive because it forces 50-50s, Paralysis stops you from moving because the RNG says so, and missing moves at crucial moments can cost you a game.

That's sounds like a silly comparison right? It is, but they're still uncompetitive (you can't argue with this). We don't ban those things because we do not care about them, especially not enough to alter game mechanics (we can ban Sucker Punch and all moves that can cause paralysis, but nobody wants that). That's the same reasoning I'm applying to this Gengar Suspect. I don't mind Gengarite enough to think it is ban worthy. If Shadow Tag was constantly in play except for some random times decided by the RNG I would, but that's not the case.

This all sounds like me describing my preferences, but I'm actually stating Shadow Tag does not take away enough skill from the game to be banned. I'm trying to word this so it doesn't seem like I'm trying to base my arguments on anecdotes of me not finding Shadow Taggers an issue. In that case, what I'm basically trying to say is that Mega-Gengar has uncompetitive elements to it, but based on past anti-ban arguments I've made and agreed with, Gengarite is not uncompetitive to the point it is banworthy. It is like Thunder Wave; it is annoying, but it's uncompetitive-ness is not relevant enough.

At this point in, I don't think trying to convincing the other side is going to make a difference so I will not try to do that. I completely respect that players more experienced than I do find Shadow Tag to be so uncompetitive it should be banned. I do want to state that the no-ban supporters will likely refuse to change there minds this far in because we are stubborn. There is no exact reason, but I feel like no-ban people enjoy Ubers because it is a metagame with minimal restrictions, rather than a strictly competitive one. Ubers was never known to be very balanced and people would play a lower tier if they wanted a more balanced one. If we assume that then the only reason for us to vote ban is if something is clearly uncompetitive. When something is just vaguely uncompetitive like Mega-Gengar, I don't think we would change our minds.

If the uncompetitive-ness of Mega Gengar and Shadow Tag mattered so much that this game stopped being competitively "fun", this would be a clear ban in my eyes. However, since it's been proven here that this suspect will actually be decided by opinion (we're not banning Paralysis, are we now?) on how uncompetitive something needs to be in order to be banned, and I don't think it's uncompetitive enough, I will continue to be against the ban.

 

[Yagura]

It is also true that banning Gengar-Mega would fundamentally change how we view Ubers. Regardless of how Bojangles (I think) defined it, (The tier with the least bans possible), Ubers is still regarded as the tier with no bans save luck-based strategies.

It was said many many times and I'll repeat it, I don't think that Ubers bans stuff based on brokenness but on being competitive or not (e.g: Swagger, OHKO moves etc...) as stuff that already got banned makes battles based on luck and coinflips, but Shadow Tag is slightly different as it relies on some thinking but still it stops switching which is one of the important basic stuff in Pokémon battles.

The core argument of the pro-ban side is that Shadow Tag is uncompetitive as it prevents switching in the turns that a Pokemon with Shadow Tag is in play. If the principle is that anything that prevents switching is uncompetitive, then Mean Look should be banned. Whirlpool should be banned. Arena Trap should be banned. You get the point. Preventing things from switching is not inherently uncompetitve. Gengar-Mega / Gothitelle are simply extremely powerful and extremely annoying.

I don't get how you're comparing Shadow Tag to those moves, Shadow Tag isn't like Mean Look, Whirlpool, Magma Trap.. as the latters are moves not an ability so you should always waste a turn to activate it, and for Arena Trap any Flying-type and Levitate Pokémon can escape it, meanwhile only Ghost-types can escape Shadow Tag but there are only few viable ones.

 

[jbtc10]

If Mega Gengar is such a big threat, shouldn't you be constructing your team accordingly and not creating any major weaknesses to it, just as you would for any other threat like Kyogre, Xern, etc? Yes, Mega Gengar is arguably slightly different in that it can trap things, but for the most part, it's still only as good as what it can trap. If being able to trap and remove things is such a successful strategy, you should be doing it too, so then both you and your opponent will have to play with this in mind and therefore it will still come down to who uses their resources better and makes the better predictions (this game is naturally quite heavily luck based, so take that statement with a grain of salt). We've already established that centralization is not a criterion for banning something, so if you need to use Mega Gengar in order to have a better chance to win, isn't the case then "so be it"? It's like how >50% of teams use Xern and how the game frequently comes down to who finds the best opportunity to set up with it and sweep first.

The team-building aspect of it should also balance out; you can build around not being weak to Gengar and being slightly worse against other threats because of it, or you can you build your team to be better against other threats but weak to Gengar. Then, when it comes to your opponents choice in this regard, if you happen to come across a team who hasn't built their team around not being weak to mega gengar in hopes of being stronger against those that don't have it, you can simply remedy this issue by using one on your own team to punish that 'greedy' choice. If everyone does that, Mega Gengar will be centralizing, but not problematic, just as any other premier threat is.

Mega Gengar also has issues associated with it which aren't favorable to the user that prevent it from being some 'unstoppable force', such as having pretty awful bulk which restricts its switch-in opportunities, having to stay in for a turn first before it can actually trap things to begin with, and having a Pursuit weakness. These aren't exactly glaring issues, but they certainly make gengar manageable and tolerable.

So my current stance on the matter is that Mega Gengar is centralizing but not uncompetitive, and calling Gothitelle a problem in Ubers is, frankly, a joke. If we start banning more and more things like Shadow Tag in Ubers, we're gunna need a new tier above Ubers that has no clauses at all so that players who actually want to be able to play the game as close to the natural game as possible without all these recent cries of uncompetitive mumbo-jumbo, can do so.