Metagame np: Stage 2 - You Spin Me Round (Like a Shellfish)

[Raseri]

Hello friends :D today we got out tier shifts we have all been waiting for! Omastar and Spiritomb both moved on up to RU (good riddance), while we gained a new Pokemon in Kabutops!

Note that this thread is for general metagame discussion, we do not have a suspect right now. For examples of what to talk about in this thread, here's a quote from my friend Molk in the RU np thread.

• New Stage - If there are tier shifts, make some predictions on what the metagame will be like or comment on the changes
• Suspect Testing - If you believe that anything is worthy of a suspect test, post about it and why you think it deserves a suspect test. (nothing will be chosen as a suspect until at least two weeks in though, if even that)
• Metagame trends - What are the most common or effective strategies? Are there any Pokemon that you think will rise in usage?
• Top threats - What should the main priorities be when considering a team for RU?
• Playstyles - Which are most effective? Are there any that cannot succeed?
• Cores - What are some popular or solid cores? Why do they work so well, and what can be used to beat them?
• Underrated Pokemon - Just because a Pokemon isn't used much doesn't mean its bad! There are plenty of hidden gems scattered throughout low RU, NU, PU, and possibly even Little Cup!
• New sets - If you have a unique set that you've had success with recently, share it

So have fun everyone, I'm not sure when the changes will be live on showdown, but we can theorymon until then!

 

[xzern]

RAIN TEAMS SHALL LIVE

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Time for Malamar to shine without Tomb :]

Malamar @ Chesto Berry
Trait: Contrary
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Superpower
- Night Slash
- Psycho Cut
- Rest

GG.

 

[skies]

Ok, I'll start off with a nomination that I'm honestly not sure people would agree with, but what do you guys think about Suspecting Mesprit? Before I explain why I think this, I'd like to add that suspect ≠ ban. Mesprit is really good, as many people know, and it's so versatile and bulky and strong. What can claim to counter it except for specific Pokemon? Take the Calm Mind set for example, it was the PotW, someone posted a Bronzor to counter it. It is the most versatile Pokemon bar none and has great stats all-around. There are seven sets viable enough to make the analysis and more might be added. A lot of Pokemon don't even have two viable sets. This may be an unpopular opinion or w/e but I do think a suspect test would be in order to see what the NU Council thinks of it.

Also, cheers to Kabutops :] Next is Hitmonchan hopefully.

 

[Lord Alphose]

Anyone know when the next reset is?

Also, I know Hollywood was joking when he said it, but I'm actually going to try a mono Psychic-type team. #YOLO

no suspect for Mesprit. Mesprit's my bae

 

[CanadianWifier]

Like half the tier suddenly becomes viable again due to lack of Spiritomb, so that's awesome. I'm looking specifically at my bae Scarf Malamar

All in all, a breath of fresh air for NU... and it smells like it's gonna rain :\

 

[Swagalge]

You better hide yo kabutops

 

[Brawlfest]

How we #fuckrain

FUCKRAIN

Liepard @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Encore
- Sunny Day
- Knock Off

Croagunk @ Eviolite
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Drain Punch
- Poison Jab
- Sucker Punch

Kangaskhan (F) @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Double-Edge
- Sucker Punch
- Earthquake

Mantine @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Air Slash
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Jynx (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Ice Beam
- Lovely Kiss
- Psychic
- Trick

Dragalge @ Assault Vest
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Sludge Bomb
- Scald
- Focus Blast

Croagunk shits on Kabutops tbh not even a threat :/

Seriously through extremely hyped about the entry of Kabutops. Unlike the rest of NUs poor rapid spinners such as Sandslash and Armaldo, Kabutops has far superior typing and way more speed, making it far more reliable and effective as a spinner. This said, it still retains great bulk in order to switch into stuff if its team needs it, and in my opinion will be a very solid candidate on just about any HO team looking for hazard removal or a Feraligatr alternative.

Mesprit is literal king now.

SubCM Uxie's time to shine.

Oh also with the loss of Spiritomb is a massive boon for Hyper Offense, as one of the primary ways to beat it through Sucker and Will-o-Spam is now lost, making it far more viable in a tier without Epitaph running around.

 

[Evan.]

np: Stage 2 - Singing in the Rain

Seriously tho excited that tops drops even if rain becomes borderline broken. One thing that some people in the NU room were talking about was how much better FWG cores got with Kabutops to play with. Now with spin support, the fire types in the FWG cores can freely enter at will, as well as grass types synergizing nearly perfectly with Kabutops' Water/Rock Typing.

 

[psVoltage]

Ok, I'll start off with a nomination that I'm honestly not sure people would agree with, but what do you guys think about Suspecting Mesprit? Before I explain why I think this, I'd like to add that suspect ≠ ban. Mesprit is really good, as many people know, and it's so versatile and bulky and strong. What can claim to counter it except for specific Pokemon? Take the Calm Mind set for example, it was the PotW, someone posted a Bronzor to counter it. It is the most versatile Pokemon bar none and has great stats all-around. There are seven sets viable enough to make the analysis and more might be added. A lot of Pokemon don't even have two viable sets. This may be an unpopular opinion or w/e but I do think a suspect test would be in order to see what the NU Council thinks of it.

Also, cheers to Kabutops :] Next is Hitmonchan hopefully.

Mespirit is definitely something to look out for and I agree with what you say, but we have to test it out before making any calls for suspect.

 

[marilli]

Before we talk about Mesprit, I feel like Uxie just gets ignored when it comes to all the psychic talk. CM Uxie is much better than CM Mesprit, SR Set is also better on Uxie, and the Weather Setter / Dual Screen is unarguably superior on the tankier Uxie. I'd go as far as to say that Mesprit's only niche is her extremely strong LO set. This is actually why I feel Mesprit's 'diversity' is seriously overhyped. Especially most of the other things it tries to do is just done better by Uxie.

If people are trying to use Rain teams at least I should be happy about Uxie getting more usage. Then I'll be sad again when I have to face a whole ton of them.

 

[Ununhexium]

Well Mesprit works better as an offensive CM user and an SR setter. Uxie doesn't have the offenses of function as an offensive SR setter and such

 

[Ares]

NEW THREAD HYPE!!!!!!

Before we talk about Mesprit, I feel like Uxie just gets ignored when it comes to all the psychic talk. CM Uxie is much better than CM Mesprit, SR Set is also better on Uxie, and the Weather Setter / Dual Screen is unarguably superior on the tankier Uxie. I'd go as far as to say that Mesprit's only niche is her extremely strong LO set. This is actually why I feel Mesprit's 'diversity' is seriously overhyped. Especially most of the other things it tries to do is just done better by Uxie.

If people are trying to use Rain teams at least I should be happy about Uxie getting more usage. Then I'll be sad again when I have to face a whole ton of them.

Well thats one big thing Mesprit has over Uxie. Mesprit outclasses Uxie in almost every aspect offensively, except for Calm Mind Sub. Mesprit can do several different sets: Scarf, Specs, Band, LO, CM/LO, and plenty of variations on all of those.

However I dont think calling for a suspect test on Mesprit is the right thing, seeing as tomb only really checked dazzling gleam Mesprit. There are still plenty of walls that handle it just fine.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

am I the only one who's disappointed to see tomb leave?

we lost our best Pursuit trapper, best spinblocker, and a very versatile Pokemon. Not only that we only have a handful of good Dark-types left (Pawniard, Cacturne, Sneasel, Vullaby?).

I'm really looking forward to several Pokemon. Uxie is looking a lot better, as is Xatu. Malamar too, as people have noted, can sweep a lot more easily without Tomb. And of course, everybody seems to have forgotten Zangoose, which just lost its best counter. I'm looking forward to Sticky Web + Zangoose now that Spiritomb can no longer come in and wall it.

 

[Blast]

Before we talk about Mesprit, I feel like Uxie just gets ignored when it comes to all the psychic talk. CM Uxie is much better than CM Mesprit, SR Set is also better on Uxie, and the Weather Setter / Dual Screen is unarguably superior on the tankier Uxie. I'd go as far as to say that Mesprit's only niche is her extremely strong LO set. This is actually why I feel Mesprit's 'diversity' is seriously overhyped. Especially most of the other things it tries to do is just done better by Uxie.

If people are trying to use Rain teams at least I should be happy about Uxie getting more usage. Then I'll be sad again when I have to face a whole ton of them.

Ehh js but I actually prefer SR Mesprit >>> Uxie because it can actually do shit other than set up rocks and like, just sit there and maybe status a few things. I like Mesprit's higher offenses way better since it actually makes it better at checking certain slower stuff like Gurdurr and Weezing and Mesprit can still take a fair few hits with investment + Lefties. I don't really like Uxie as a pure wall because Psychic is a pretty poor defensive typing so I usually prefer a more bulky offensive Psychic over a fully defensive one. Also, Healing Wish is godly. (I do kinda agree that Mesprit's versatility is slightly overrated though, since I frankly hate Choiced sets and physical sets are pretty iffy for me too, but the SR set is one I actually really like). :o

As for the drops I think it should be pretty interesting to see how it affects teambuilding since now you can't just slap Spiritomb on every team to check Normals + Fightings + Psychics + every frail mon. Offense in particular should be pretty interesting to watch adapt since they lost their best hazard stacker (we still have Crustle but eh) and best spinblocker, as well as having to deal with a new spinner and the likely uprise in rain teams (which they already have a pretty difficult matchup against).

 

[Trollax:3]

oml, kabutops has finally dropped

Now, the dreaded LudiTops will destroy the tier. It's got a fantastic 115 base attacking stat, decent physical bulk, and good speed stat-wise. It also has the access to Rapid Spin which will probably make it the best spinner in NU. In rain, it can SD up its attacking stats and use the swift swim boost to demolish anything in its path (bar things like ferroseed). Great mon.

 

[Sound]

With Spiritomb rising and Kabutops falling, hazard stacking took a serious hit. However, now the other bulky ghosts no longer have to compete with Spiritomb so we may see more variety on that front.

 

[soulgazer]

Here's three Pokemon that I have been using a lot lately (before and after Kabutops dropped):

Rotom @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 184 Def / 76 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
- Volt Switch
- Shadow Ball

Bulky Rotom is really underrated. While it is infact one of the best Choice Scarf user in the tier, a lot of people forget that it can actually use bulkier spreads very well too. What I like about Bulky Rotom the most is that it acts as a bulky pivot that can block Rapid Spin, a bit like what Golurk did in BW2 NU, and has a nice Flying-type resist + Normal-type immunity, letting you use different Ground-types on your team without needing them to be part Rock- or Steel- (letting you use Camerupt, Seismitoad, Sandslash, Torterra, etc). This thing really needs more love.

Roselia @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Spikes
- Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis

Surprisingly, every time I brought Roselia up in the NU room it received a lot of hate: a lot of people think Roselia is 100% outclassed by Vileplume, which is completely wrong. Being able to use Spikes and / or Toxic Spikes is big, which definitely gives it a niche over the good ol' Vileplume. I prefer a Physically Defensive spread on Roselia as it gives the little flower more opportunity to set up Spikes as it will now be able to set up Spikes more easily against physical attackers. I also like Hidden Power Fire on it to lure Ferroseed and not be set up fodder to Klinklang, but anything work. Another Pokemon that needs more love.

Camerupt @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Lava Plume
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Roar

Good ol' Camel. Camerupt's main niche is to be a good stop to Fire-types without that glaring 4x Grass-type weakness, which is honestly really great in NU right now as a every Fire-types run Hidden Power Grass. Unfortunately, Earthquake Magmortar exists, but then again it beats most of the other Fire resists anyway so its not really a bad point lol. Fire + Ground coverage is neat too, so few things want to switch into it :). Again, needs more love!

What do you guys think of these three? And is there some underrated sets / Pokemon that you think work well in the tier at the moment that deserves more love too?

Raseri sux

 

[Fluze3]

Here's three Pokemon that I have been using a lot lately (before and after Kabutops dropped):

Rotom @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 184 Def / 76 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
- Volt Switch
- Shadow Ball

Bulky Rotom is really underrated. While it is infact one of the best Choice Scarf user in the tier, a lot of people forget that it can actually use bulkier spreads very well too. What I like about Bulky Rotom the most is that it acts as a bulky pivot that can block Rapid Spin, a bit like what Golurk did in BW2 NU, and has a nice Flying-type resist + Normal-type immunity, letting you use different Ground-types on your team without needing them to be part Rock- or Steel- (letting you use Camerupt, Seismitoad, Sandslash, Torterra, etc). This thing really needs more love.

Roselia @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Spikes
- Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis

Surprisingly, every time I brought Roselia up in the NU room it received a lot of hate: a lot of people think Roselia is 100% outclassed by Vileplume, which is completely wrong. Being able to use Spikes and / or Toxic Spikes is big, which definitely gives it a niche over the good ol' Vileplume. I prefer a Physically Defensive spread on Roselia as it gives the little flower more opportunity to set up Spikes as it will now be able to set up Spikes more easily against physical attackers. I also like Hidden Power Fire on it to lure Ferroseed and not be set up fodder to Klinklang, but anything work. Another Pokemon that needs more love.

Camerupt @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Lava Plume
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Roar

Good ol' Camel. Camerupt's main niche is to be a good stop to Fire-types without that glaring 4x Grass-type weakness, which is honestly really great in NU right now as a every Fire-types run Hidden Power Grass. Unfortunately, Earthquake Magmortar exists, but then again it beats most of the other Fire resists anyway so its not really a bad point lol. Fire + Ground coverage is neat too, so few things want to switch into it :). Again, needs more love!

What do you guys think of these three? And is there some underrated sets / Pokemon that you think work well in the tier at the moment that deserves more love too?

Raseri sux

LOVE THIS! Finally, I can use Camerupt as a Lead (I use it as a Trick Room sweeper). Roselia hasn't gotten credit ever since Knock Off became more common and Plume has honestly dropped in usage for some reason. I love using underrated pokemon :]

Something else that completely decimates rain teams (Ludicolo :[) but has a nice wall on Kabutops is Frillish. It's amazing defensive typing allows it to block Rapid Spin as well as Burn Kabutops while absorbing the rain-boosted waterfalls. It can take stone edges (2HKO) (nothing can take its STAB combo anymore bar Ferroseed) and can set up Trick Room if necessary to slow it down. It works wonders with Ferroseed, becoming a psudeo-FerroCent core in OU back in Gen V (still exists now but not as common). It was a top-tier NU threat last gen as well, and, in my opinion, will become the best spinblocker in the tier due to the fact it destroys most spinners (kabutops /w burn, sandslash scald death, torkoal LOL) and its water typing helps it to wall most physically oriented pokemon.

Frillish @ Eviolite
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold / Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk, 0 Spe
- Trick Room / Scald
- Wil-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Night Shade

 

[soulgazer]

LOVE THIS! Finally, I can use Camerupt as a Lead (I use it as a Trick Room sweeper). Roselia hasn't gotten credit ever since Knock Off became more common and Plume has honestly dropped in usage for some reason. I love using underrated pokemon :]

Camerupt isn't really a good lead as it has really bad matchup against most of them: Camerupt loses to Rhydon, Seismitoad, Golem, Crustle doesn't really care as it can easily get Stealth Rock + one Spikes on it (two if Camerupt uses Stealth Rock itself), Qwilfish 'can' beat it, etc. It usually gets its chance to set up Stealth Rock when your opponent brings in their Fire-, Grass-, Poison-, Steel-, or Electric-types.

I have heard of a fast Camerupt set with Solar Beam that has decent lead matchups, but I don't know how well it works :[

 

[Ares]

LOVE THIS! Finally, I can use Camerupt as a Lead (I use it as a Trick Room sweeper). Roselia hasn't gotten credit ever since Knock Off became more common and Plume has honestly dropped in usage for some reason. I love using underrated pokemon :]

Something else that completely decimates rain teams (Ludicolo :[) but has a nice wall on Kabutops is Frillish. It's amazing defensive typing allows it to block Rapid Spin as well as Burn Kabutops while absorbing the rain-boosted waterfalls. It can take stone edges (2HKO) (nothing can take its STAB combo anymore bar Ferroseed) and can set up Trick Room if necessary to slow it down. It works wonders with Ferroseed, becoming a psudeo-FerroCent core in OU back in Gen V (still exists now but not as common). It was a top-tier NU threat last gen as well, and, in my opinion, will become the best spinblocker in the tier due to the fact it destroys most spinners (kabutops /w burn, sandslash scald death, torkoal LOL) and its water typing helps it to wall most physically oriented pokemon.

Frillish @ Eviolite
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold / Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk, 0 Spe
- Trick Room / Scald
- Wil-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Night Shade

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Frillish: 398-471 (126.7 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Unfortunately this exacerbates Kabutops 4MSS, but yah know Frillish isnt to great of a counter if its running Knock Off.

 

[Brawlfest]

Camerupt isn't really a good lead as it has really bad matchup against most of them: Camerupt loses to Rhydon, Seismitoad, Golem, Crustle doesn't really care as it can easily get Stealth Rock + one Spikes on it (two if Camerupt uses Stealth Rock itself), Qwilfish 'can' beat it, etc. It usually gets its chance to set up Stealth Rock when your opponent brings in their Fire-, Grass-, Poison-, Steel-, or Electric-types.

I have heard of a fast Camerupt set with Solar Beam that has decent lead matchups, but I don't know how well it works :[

Have you even seen my RMT :[ FastRupt is freaking Awesome it baits in and shits on tons of crap and is incredibly effective. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/classic.3512898/ - #ADVERTISING

 

[ryan]

Since I hyped Tropius at the beginning of the last np thread, I think it's time to hype another unpopular set, even if this one is less unconventional.

Hariyama @ Leftovers | Thick Fat
252 Atk / 128 Def / 128 SpD | Adamant Nature
Close Combat / Knock Off / Bullet Punch / Toxic

Hariyama is obviously quite popular, but every time I run into it on the ladder, it's using Assault Vest with Fake Out or Ice Punch and Guts. There are a few problems I have with Assault Vest Hariyama. One is that it doesn't have any form of recovery, which makes it pretty vulnerable to getting worn down throughout the match. Another is that Hariyama is a great switch into Knock Off, and I hate the idea of an Assault Vest being taken away. In fact, the reason why I have been using Leftovers Hariyama over Gurdurr so much lately is because it doesn't mind Knock Off at all. The last is that Gurdurr is a better user of Guts than Hariyama because it has Drain Punch for recovery.

Leftovers Hariyama solves a lot of these problems, and it doesn't restrict you to attacking moves. This gives you the opportunity to run Toxic, which nails a lot of common switches into Hariyama and helps wear them down throughout the match. Thick Fat is also really cool. Even though you lose out on a status absorber, you get a good switch into Fire-types and Freeze-Dry Cryogonal, which I swear is impossible for balanced teams to manage. This also helps with Hariyama's survivability because it gets to take on more types of attacks and doesn't lure passive damage from Guts statuses.

So this is a cool set. Try it out!

 

[skies]

Hollywood I can vouch for this set as well, I've been testing it for a while since I noticed a post of yours with that EV spread. I thought it looked pretty odd, but I ran some calcs and began further playtesting and it's not ceased to impress me! Hariyama in general is a great Pokemon and I too noticed that Toxic is a great asset to it. On the subject of Hariyama, I've been messing around with a Choice Band set with Speed investment on a Sticky Web team. The spread is 252 Atk / 24 Def / 24 SpD / 208 Spe to keep up the vibe of splitting Defenses for best bulk with 208 Spe + Jolly to outspeed base 100s after SW. It's plenty powerful anyways, and nothing notable so far has been missed out by running Jolly > Adamant. So yeah, Hariyama is cool, try it out!

 

[Davon]

The rise of Shedinja is coming...

whats a gatr (Shedinja) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- X-Scissor
- Swords Dance
- Protect

nah but really, this thing is a little more viable now that the field is much more clearer than it used to be. in stage 1 it was impossible to get rid of hazards, no good defoggers really, I guess swanna was mediocre. in stage 1 spiritomb was the premier rapid spinner and now that's gone, things are looking up for little shedy. Shedinja even got a new partner in this stage, Kabutops provides rapid spin support and has a 4x resist to fire for those choice locked fire types. there aren't really any pursuit trappers in the tier besides sneasel which has piss poor usage (u guys should use sneasel, it's p cool too.). Shedinja also sets up on top tier threats namely gatr which ur a dumbass if u run crunch on gatr. ferroseed can be a problem for both kabutops and shedinja tho. im getting ideas just writing this, use probo to trap ferro! we even got xatu this gen so hazards are even tougher to get up. shit, I just built half a team for you, go use shedinja already!

Ludicolo @ Leftovers
Ability: Rain Dish
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Giga Drain
- Leech Seed / Synthesis
- Substitute / Protect

So apparently rain hyper offense is like unbeatable or something. Im gonna showcase this ludicolo set that works pretty well against rain. basically defensive Ludicolo takes on rain sweeper ludicolo really easily and it can live a hit ( it gets OHKO'd at +2 by life orb stone edge unfortunately) from kabutops and get all its health back w/ giga drain. im not saying ludicolo is a reliable switch in to kabutops, but it walls rain sweeper ludicolo pretty well. I put 36 speed to speed creep uninvested seismitoads and setup a sub.