np: XY UU Stage 3 - Calling [Diggersby: BL, Next: Scolipede]

[Patrick1088]

TrulyDevious it is most certainly possible. Go look at deniss team thats been all over thr place. 2 memento users, dual screens make smeargly bulky. Barring crit hits, sp def pokes like rachi, av gross and toxic umbreon and tricking an itrm to smeargle before it passes, the strategy is nigh impossible to break or counter.

Does anybody have the link to deniss team to show trulydevious?

Edit:ninja'd by President Shinra

 

[Lowgock]

ban togekiss now

 

[New Breed]

maybe ban curselax first xD!

 

[TrulyDevious]

Patrick1088

I completely forgot about Memento / dual screens there, but has anyone used Taunt Sableye or Tornadus (they can Knock Off whatever herb before Taunting Dog)?

 

[Nysyr]

Patrick1088

I completely forgot about Memento / dual screens there, but has anyone used Taunt Sableye or Tornadus (they can Knock Off whatever herb before Taunting Dog)?

Yeah, try to predict that thru magic coat. Tornadus is just better off clicking acro/hurricane.

 

[TrulyDevious]

Yeah, try to predict that thru magic coat. Tornadus is just better off clicking acro/hurricane.

Why'd you start off with Taunt anyways? Knock Off first to remove whatever Herb, then use Taunt. (an opponent using MCoat twice in a row is unlikely, considering a Tornadus is even unlikelier to carry Taunt anyways.

 

[Machi]

Why'd you start off with Taunt anyways? Knock Off first to remove whatever Herb, then use Taunt. (an opponent using MCoat twice in a row is unlikely, considering a Tornadus is even unlikelier to carry Taunt anyways.

Look this is just going into theorizing ad nauseum of a matter between who outplays who the point stands that Smeargle unlike the available passers, e.g. combusken, gorebyss, etc, can put pressure on whatever attempts to disrupt the chain as it has a plethora of tools available (MCoat/DVoid/Spore/Taunt).

 

[_Mew2King_]

people are complaining about BP in UU, but in fact it is much better in OU (no Sableye, Umbreon, Dragon Tail and you can even use Gothitelle to kill Amoonguss). If anything needs to be done, nerf Smeargle in OU.

 

[TrulyDevious]

people are complaining about BP in UU, but in fact it is much better in OU (no Sableye, Umbreon, Dragon Tail and you can even use Gothitelle to kill Amoonguss). If anything needs to be done, nerf Smeargle in OU.

Lol this is a UU thread

 

[_Mew2King_]

Lol this is a UU thread

a move/Pokemon ban affects the highest tier that decides it and all tiers below

 

[Skankovich]

But it clearly hasn't been enough of an issue in OU to be brought up there, while it is an issue here? There's all sorts of stuff in OU that handles BPass well too, like the omnipresent flying priority.

 

[_Mew2King_]

But it clearly hasn't been enough of an issue in OU to be brought up there, while it is an issue here? There's all sorts of stuff in OU that handles BPass well too, like the omnipresent flying priority.

excuse me?

-2 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Smeargle through Reflect: 81-96 (32.2 - 38.2%) -- 97.5% chance to 3HKO

-2 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. +3 0 HP / 252 Def Smeargle through Reflect: 33-39 (13.1 - 15.5%) -- possible 7HKO


252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. +3 0 HP / 252 Def Smeargle through Reflect: 66-78 (26.2 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/baton-pass-2-0-and-3-0.3514679/

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/baton-pass-after-the-second-nerf.3515723/

 

[Skankovich]

Ugh, duh, of course a -2 talonflame against a smeargle behind reflect doesnt do much, the point is that its priority screws up the rest of the chain's setup, and requires a decent bit of playing around for Bpass to get past.

 

[Patrick1088]

But it clearly hasn't been enough of an issue in OU to be brought up there, while it is an issue here? There's all sorts of stuff in OU that handles BPass well too, like the omnipresent flying priority.

BP is very overcentralizing in UU. If you pass multiple boosts to a specific poke whether it's bulky espeon, toge or a wallbreaker like LO Nidoqueen, there really isn't much the opponent can do to check/counter them. Even LO Nidoqueen 2HKO the entire tier if it has +2 to Sp Atk, including Blissey

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 517-611 (72.4 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 411-486 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

If you add in hazards, dual screens, Memento support, etc.. then Queen (or almost any other poke) can just plow through teams with relative ease, while your opponent is left squirming and scrambling for options.

Even priority can't even help you...

252 Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 163-193 (46.1 - 54.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Abomasnow Ice Shard vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 164-194 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after hail damage

These are just examples, but there is literally nothing your opponent can do. Regarding the deniss team template, you are forced to run the following with chance to stop the strategy...

1. AV Metagross: 200BP Stored Power is a 4HKO on AV Metagross while it is immune to Memento thanks to Clear Body. Resists Explosion from Azelf. But, Smeargle can Spore you and your only check is now incapacitated.
2. Safety Googles Metagross: Immune to Spore and Memento. Needs to nab Meteor Mash boosts to really break through accumulated possible defensive boosts.
3. Sp Def Rachi: Probably the safest and most reliable check to denisss team. But, must be wary of Spore, just like AV Metagross.
4. Toxic Umbreon triggers Synchronize on Magic Bounce. Needs to stall out with Wish/Aromatherapy and is almost 2HKO by a boosted Dazzling Gleam
5. TrickScarf Pokes (i.e. Rotom, Chandy). Needs to TrickScarf as Smeargle is boosting. Very reliable way to stop the chain, but Tailwind support from Cotton Balls puts Smeargle at a speed above scarfed base 100s, so it can Taunt/Spore.

Does this sound like a healthy meta to you?

 

[Skankovich]

Eh? I said it is an issue here, and that the claim that it's more of an issue in OU isn't quite right.

 

[_Mew2King_]

Ugh, duh, of course a -2 talonflame against a smeargle behind reflect doesnt do much, the point is that its priority screws up the rest of the chain's setup, and requires a decent bit of playing around for Bpass to get past.

rest of the chain:

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. +3 200 HP / 252+ Def Espeon: 93-111 (28.9 - 34.5%) -- 4.9% chance to 3HKO

?? did you ever played against a decent bp player?

 

[Skankovich]

That's not the rest of the chain, that's when smeargle has already passed +3 defense to espeon? There's like a solid 4 mons worth of setup before that.

Besides, my point is just that no one really complains about baton pass any more in OU, if you think it is an issue there, fine, go complain there. There's no point dicussing BP as an issue in OU here, because all we can do here is address it as an issue in UU.

 

[_Mew2King_]

Cottonee can use Tailwind + Memento on Talonflame's face, and then Azelf has the bulk to set up both screens, and finally Whimsicott can Tailwind + Memento again. I was just saying that if we nerf BP in OU then there is nothing to worry about in UU as well ;)

ps: bp in OU is even more annoying

 

[AM]

Cottonee can use Tailwind + Memento on Talonflame's face, and then Azelf has the bulk to set up both screens, and finally Whimsicott can Tailwind + Memento again. I was just saying that if we nerf BP in OU then there is nothing to worry about in UU as well ;)

ps: bp in OU is even more annoying

Speaking as an OU player that lurks on the UU threads due to interest but never really jumping into UU actively, BP is blatantly more of a problem in UU than it is OU. It's been addressed already that the power level between UU and OU are completely different. OU has enough viable tools to compensate and handle single mon BP chains, while UU is pigeon holed into niche counters. Smeargle is the real culprit from what I've seen and heard in the UU tier, nothing else. Idk how the relevancy of BP in OU has anything to do with how UU handles it. Totally different metas, different tools to utilize, and is not that big of a deal in OU and really it's about UU so the focus should be on that.

 

[_Mew2King_]

Speaking as an OU player that lurks on the UU threads due to interest but never really jumping into UU actively, BP is blatantly more of a problem in UU than it is OU. It's been addressed already that the power level between UU and OU are completely different. OU has enough viable tools to compensate and handle single mon BP chains, while UU is pigeon holed into niche counters. Smeargle is the real culprit from what I've seen and heard in the UU tier, nothing else. Idk how the relevancy of BP in OU has anything to do with how UU handles it. Totally different metas, different tools to utilize, and is not that big of a deal in OU and really it's about UU so the focus should be on that.

oh really? When I try to build something thinking about how I'm going to deal with most threats, I never consider any measure to deal with denissss team, and then what happens? I always get swept by the freaking Espeon. It is impossible to stop Smeargle from passing the boost unless you get a lucky crit. Tailwind + Screens + Memento is too much for OU as well imo.

-2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. +3 0 HP / 252 Def Smeargle through Reflect: 79-94 (31.4 - 37.4%) -- 87% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. +3 0 HP / 252 Def Smeargle through Reflect: 159-187 (63.3 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

sheer power doesn't work against his team. So please, teach me how do you beat denisss team using a regular team in OU.

 

[AM]

oh really? When I try to build something thinking about how I'm going to deal with most threats, I never consider any measure to deal with denissss team, and then what happens? I always get swept by the freaking Espeon. It is impossible to stop Smeargle from passing the boost unless you get a lucky crit. Tailwind + Screens + Memento is too much for OU as well imo.

-2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. +3 0 HP / 252 Def Smeargle through Reflect: 79-94 (31.4 - 37.4%) -- 87% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. +3 0 HP / 252 Def Smeargle through Reflect: 159-187 (63.3 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

sheer power doesn't work against his team. So please, teach me how do you beat denisss team using a regular team in OU.

What this boils down to, is that your argument is based solely on that of the OU tier and a bunch of theorymonning, once again, on the OU tier. What I'm trying to explain is that your logic and reasoning is based on your own presumptions based on a tier that is for the most part, irrelevant to UU because OU and UU have different standards. Every scenario you pointed out is trying to prove that there is some sort of hard science that it is a guaranteed loss in OU when there are too many factors to take into account. With this being said, you're trying to directly correlate between OU and UU when the focus of the matter in this discussion and the subforum as well, is how this is effected in the UU tier, not OU. If it's a persistent problem in OU, then it will be handled accordingly at a later time, if that ever happens. Trying to justify your argument using OU examples doesn't end up going anywhere when you should be addressing how it directly effects the UU metagame not only from a theorymonning aspect but more importantly, through the practical aspect where it actually comes into play and actually matters.

 

[_Mew2King_]

What this boils down to, is that your argument is based solely on that of the OU tier and a bunch of theorymonning, once again, on the OU tier. What I'm trying to explain is that your logic and reasoning is based on your own presumptions based on a tier that is for the most part, irrelevant to UU because OU and UU have different standards. Every scenario you pointed out is trying to prove that there is some sort of hard science that it is a guaranteed loss in OU when there are too many factors to take into account. With this being said, you're trying to directly correlate between OU and UU when the focus of the matter in this discussion and the subforum as well, is how this is effected in the UU tier, not OU. If it's a persistent problem in OU, then it will be handled accordingly at a later time, if that ever happens. Trying to justify your argument using OU examples doesn't end up going anywhere when you should be addressing how it directly effects the UU metagame not only from a theorymonning aspect but more importantly, through the practical aspect where it actually comes into play and actually matters.

Practical aspect: after playing 100 times against BP on ladder using many different teams and losing all the time except when my opponent was a completely idiot player.

"Every scenario you pointed out is trying to prove that there is some sort of hard science that it is a guaranteed loss in OU when there are too many factors to take into account."

I think I'm noob and I would like to understand what factors I should take into account.

 

[TrulyDevious]

Practical aspect: after playing 100 times against BP on ladder using many different teams and losing all the time except when my opponent was a completely idiot player.

"Every scenario you pointed out is trying to prove that there is some sort of hard science that it is a guaranteed loss in OU when there are too many factors to take into account."

I think I'm noob and I would like to understand what factors I should take into account.

For one, are you really sure Memento will hit and affect something? Or probably there's something on my team that fucks up Smeargle/Cottonee/Whimsicott such as Luke, Torn or Eye or any mon with Protect, or maybe I have something that walls Espeon even at +2? His point is that the tools in OU are irrelevant here because we can't access them and we have to fight back with our own standards, which others pointed out already is impossible with our current state, so people are clamoring for Smeargle's head because it turns UU into a shitstorm by its uncompetitiveness and blatant brokenness, but as long as there isn't a Suspect Test, you're gonna have to put up with it, and people have found ways to (temporarily) put up.


TLDR: This is UU, not OU, go back home and lift bruh

 

[RyanKoopa]

Honestly I don't see the point in any other ruling at this point other than banning Smeargle. If QD Venomoth was broken than QD Smeargle will be too. So banning geomancy won't solve the issue, banning baton pass will deal a ton of collateral damage. So either we do a complex ruling like no BP + boosting move or ban Smeargle, who is the only truly broken baton passer in UU. Since nobody wants a complex ban because they are such a pain in the ass, banning Smeargle seems like the most logical solution.

And yes, I'm aware that Smeargle's other sets (ie. hazard lead) aren't broken. But Venomoth wasn't broken without baton pass either, but that didn't stop it from going to BL.

 

[President Shinra]

Honestly I don't see the point in any other ruling at this point other than banning Smeargle. If QD Venomoth was broken than QD Smeargle will be too. So banning geomancy won't solve the issue, banning baton pass will deal a ton of collateral damage. So either we do a complex ruling like no BP + boosting move or ban Smeargle, who is the only truly broken baton passer in UU. Since nobody wants a complex ban because they are such a pain in the ass, banning Smeargle seems like the most logical solution.

And yes, I'm aware that Smeargle's other sets (ie. hazard lead) aren't broken. But Venomoth wasn't broken without baton pass either, but that didn't stop it from going to BL.

Honestly, what's the worst long-term problem from banning Geomancy in UU? It gives the tier time to discover whether or not QD Smeargle is or isn't broken. Plus, banning Geomancy causes no collateral damage.