Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

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as long as keldeo remains OU(which it will for all of gen 6) infernape will remain an outclassed option for wall breaking. keldeo can be a mixed attacker off of its 129 special attack stat, which really makes it a better option than infernape. while its best set does lock it into one move, it could run a life orb and still sport superior results to infernape because water+fighting is so good. keldeo also has a good bulk and good typing, so it can actually switch into battle without a pivot switch. infernape is a really bad option if you have access to keldeo. stay c+
 
Zapdos being a fly spam check that doesn't get trapped by Magnezone also makes it really good for stall teams especially if you have something such as Tank Zard X to take Knock Offs. I've used Zapdos in some stall teams and it has been able to pull off its job successfully, so while that alone isn't a reason for it to stay B, I can definitely agree it's a good Pokemon.
 
I find it kind of sad how underrated Zapdos is in this topic. I mean its specially defensive set (imo its best set) hard counters Pinsir and Lando-I two very dangerous mons in the current meta along with checking/countering other high rank threats like Talonflame, Thundurus, Mega Scizor etc. And it can also use defog if you want it to. I guess that stuff like Rihyperior is better when it comes to checking Flyspam but they give up on other threats that Zapdos handles so well, not to mention defog.

Someone mentioned that its outperformed by Mandibuzz and Skarm but i realy cant see that. Mandibuzz is hardly worth a teamslot nowadays. Aegi is gone and he is hardly able to handle common threats. He cant switch into LO Exca with rocks up, loses to scarf Ttar, cant stop Pinsir (and dies to CB Talon/Raptor after SR) and is a free switch for Greninja, Keldeo, Azu and other dangerous things. Skarm used to be better on Stall teams but with Magnezone beeing everywhere right now its basicly forced to use Shed Shell limiting its utility. Not to mention that its worse at checking Talonflame and has a harder time dealing with Pinsir now that everyone runs Close Combat. Every Pinsir team out there is prepared to deal with Skarm but who thinks about Zapdos? Nobody. So even if they were equally good in a vacuum, in practise Zapdos is more reliable imo.

Its certainly not the best defoger out there beeing SR weak and beeing unable to deal with some common SR setters but its a great answer to many common threats and pairs nicely with fly weak Megas like Venu or Heracross. It deserves more than a measly B- imo.
Ok so I'm going to point out the glaring flaws in this argument. You make it sound as if Skarmory cannot properly deal with Flyspam and in which case, neither can Zapdos. This is because: 252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 288-340 (75 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Zapdos is unable to counter a very viable flyspam Pokemon and is instead 2HKOed. While Mandibuzz and Skarmory are nowadays threatened by a lot in the metagame, the exact same thing applies to Zapdos. It absolutely HATES sand offence and is complete set up bait for a number of dangerous sweepers (if it lacks toxic, which many do, as it loves having Heat Wave or HP Ice these days) such as Mega Zard X, Diggersby, Mega Tyranitar, ext, so saying that the others are hindered do to a popularity of their checks and counters doesn't support your argument as the same thing applies to Zapdos. Also, Zapdos not coming into a teambuilder's mind isn't so much of a problem as I find that I have prepared for Zapdos without even trying due to how easy it is to deal with. Yet another flaw this thing has is that it's an SR weak defogger, along with Mandibuzz, so it's chances to actually switch in and remove the rocks are greatly limited, seeing a lot 2HKOes it after just some chip damage. Sure, there's room for it on stall, but the niche just isn't enough for it to land itself B due to it's glaring flaws and that's it's quite outclassed. Dropping to B- is necessary here.
 
Ok so I'm going to point out the glaring flaws in this argument. You make it sound as if Skarmory cannot properly deal with Flyspam and in which case, neither can Zapdos. This is because: 252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 288-340 (75 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Zapdos is unable to counter a very viable flyspam Pokemon and is instead 2HKOed. While Mandibuzz and Skarmory are nowadays threatened by a lot in the metagame, the exact same thing applies to Zapdos. It absolutely HATES sand offence and is complete set up bait for a number of dangerous sweepers (if it lacks toxic, which many do, as it loves having Heat Wave or HP Ice these days) such as Mega Zard X, Diggersby, Mega Tyranitar, ext, so saying that the others are hindered do to a popularity of their checks and counters doesn't support your argument as the same thing applies to Zapdos. Also, Zapdos not coming into a teambuilder's mind isn't so much of a problem as I find that I have prepared for Zapdos without even trying due to how easy it is to deal with. Yet another flaw this thing has is that it's an SR weak defogger, along with Mandibuzz, so it's chances to actually switch in and remove the rocks are greatly limited, seeing a lot 2HKOes it after just some chip damage. Sure, there's room for it on stall, but the niche just isn't enough for it to land itself B due to it's glaring flaws and that's it's quite outclassed. Dropping to B- is necessary here.
Its the other way around. The argument against Zapdos was that it cant switch into Talonflames Flareblitz, i was just pointing out that Skarm cant do that either. In fact, even Mandybuzz cant do it with rocks on the field. But at least Zapdos can check Talonflame and Staraptor. Skarm cant do a thing about Talonflame exept maybe counter which might work against CB sets.

Its certainly true that Zapdos has trouble with certain threats depending on his second attacking move but so do Skarm and Mandy and they are both B+/A- respectively so if you wanna argue for Zapdos to go down to B- you should have better arguments than that. Skarm/Mandi are set up bait for just as many mons as Zapdos is, if not more. And Zapdos has a big advantage over Mandibuzz, he can deal with the things he is supposed to i.e Lando, Pinsir etc even with rocks on the field. Mandibuzz dies to pretty much everything he wants to handle once he needs to switch into rocks. Talonflame, Garchomp, LO Exca they all 2hko after rocks.

I am not saying Zapdos is better than Skarm/Mandi overall, they all have their fair share of flaws, but he isnt worse either and he certainly isnt so much worse to justifiy a difference of 2 or even 3 sub ranks. And imo Zapdos best home are balanced teams, not stall teams. For stall Skarm might be better, i dont know since i dont play stall. But if i had to go for one of the 3 on my balanced team, i would always pick zapdos over the other 2. He does what he has to do reliably, has a decent offensive presence and good defensive synergy with other good balanced mons.
 
ok, since we can talk about whatever we want

-> C-

Salamence is quite honestly not bad itself. Just ferociously outclassed, and even then can find its way on to some dragmag teams because of its great cleaning capabilities. The only set it should be running in this meta is Choice Scarf, since it faces the least competition and actually has some advantages over its competition. Garchomp is almost always the superior choice for a Dragon- type scarfer, but Salamence can fill in that spot if you need Garchomp for something else on your team(there is actually quite a lot Garchomp can do) and they even form a good double dragon core. And when we look at C- rank, we have Haxorus, a similarly niche Dragon- type. I think they are on par, and Salamence quite honestly isn't as horrendous as the rest of D rank.

also i should post a replay showcasing what it can do
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-160525110
(ik its not azu offense but i mean mence was da real mvp, not even against a shit player)
didn't encounter much opposition to this, in fact nothing but support, has a conclusion been reached?
 
Its the other way around. The argument against Zapdos was that it cant switch into Talonflames Flareblitz, i was just pointing out that Skarm cant do that either. In fact, even Mandybuzz cant do it with rocks on the field. But at least Zapdos can check Talonflame and Staraptor. Skarm cant do a thing about Talonflame exept maybe counter which might work against CB sets.

Its certainly true that Zapdos has trouble with certain threats depending on his second attacking move but so do Skarm and Mandy and they are both B+/A- respectively so if you wanna argue for Zapdos to go down to B- you should have better arguments than that. Skarm/Mandi are set up bait for just as many mons as Zapdos is, if not more. And Zapdos has a big advantage over Mandibuzz, he can deal with the things he is supposed to i.e Lando, Pinsir etc even with rocks on the field. Mandibuzz dies to pretty much everything he wants to handle once he needs to switch into rocks. Talonflame, Garchomp, LO Exca they all 2hko after rocks.

I am not saying Zapdos is better than Skarm/Mandi overall, they all have their fair share of flaws, but he isnt worse either and he certainly isnt so much worse to justifiy a difference of 2 or even 3 sub ranks. And imo Zapdos best home are balanced teams, not stall teams. For stall Skarm might be better, i dont know since i dont play stall. But if i had to go for one of the 3 on my balanced team, i would always pick zapdos over the other 2. He does what he has to do reliably, has a decent offensive presence and good defensive synergy with other good balanced mons.
Zapdos doesn't just have certain threats depending on it's attacking move, it's weak to more things in the metagame than the other 2 overall. It has trouble with a whole cast of Pokemon that Skarmory has no trouble with at all. At least the other 2 don't take chip damage from sand. Also, I wasn't arguing that being weak to rocks stops it from countering what it's supposed to, I was arguing that being weak to rocks limits it's ability to defog as it can't switch in on a vast amount of the metagame with rocks up. Just add this to it's other flaws such as vulnerability to sand, 4MMS, the fact that it's partially outclassed and only semi good bulk (tbh 90/85/90 isn't all that great.) and it's easy to see how this thing is only just in the B realm, which is why it should be B-.

The problem with saying that Zapdos is best at home in balanced is that, well, as a Pokemon that can be split onto 2 roles easily it's easy to fit a better defogger and a better flyspam check on the team. But the fact still remains that there are situations where using Zapdos is a better option due to the 2 in 1 it provides, and that's why it deserves B-.
 
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I find it kind of sad how underrated Zapdos is in this topic. I mean its specially defensive set (imo its best set) hard counters Pinsir and Lando-I two very dangerous mons in the current meta along with checking/countering other high rank threats like Talonflame, Thundurus, Mega Scizor etc. And it can also use defog if you want it to. I guess that stuff like Rihyperior is better when it comes to checking Flyspam but they give up on other threats that Zapdos handles so well, not to mention defog.

Someone mentioned that its outperformed by Mandibuzz and Skarm but i realy cant see that. Mandibuzz is hardly worth a teamslot nowadays. Aegi is gone and he is hardly able to handle common threats. He cant switch into LO Exca with rocks up, loses to scarf Ttar, cant stop Pinsir (and dies to CB Talon/Raptor after SR) and is a free switch for Greninja, Keldeo, Azu and other dangerous things. Skarm used to be better on Stall teams but with Magnezone beeing everywhere right now its basicly forced to use Shed Shell limiting its utility. Not to mention that its worse at checking Talonflame and has a harder time dealing with Pinsir now that everyone runs Close Combat. Every Pinsir team out there is prepared to deal with Skarm but who thinks about Zapdos? Nobody. So even if they were equally good in a vacuum, in practise Zapdos is more reliable imo.

Its certainly not the best defoger out there beeing SR weak and beeing unable to deal with some common SR setters but its a great answer to many common threats and pairs nicely with fly weak Megas like Venu or Heracross. It deserves more than a measly B- imo.
Ehhh.

Have you read the part where I said Zapdos struggles against Sand Offense, mainly because of its 4MSS? It has to choose to beat Dragon- or Steel-types, so it's bound to either be walled or used as set-up bait by at least one array of opponents. Its bulk is not even THAT great, since even Timid Mega Gardevoir still easily 2HKOes the specially defensive variant after SR and with its 135 Special Defense, can use Zapdos as set-up bait. I'll say it again: Sand Offense shits all over this thing. With it being the most common playstyle around, Zapdos just struggles. Mandibuzz still has a Sand immunity thanks to Overcoat and is a lot bulkier than Zapdos overall, while having STAB Foul Play to punish set-up attackers. Skarmory has a much better defensive typing and can set up its own SR while providing Defog support, while being blessed with great physical bulk. Skarm and Mandi are passive, yes, but not so much outclassed. As an Electric-type checking Flying Spam, Mega Manectric is a far better option since it actually doesn't lose to Mega Aerodactyl and has no crippling 4MSS. As a defensive Flying Spam check, Rhyperior is far more consistent and devastating, since it has the bulk to literally stomach anything the playstyle can throw at it. As an offensive Defogger, Latios is a far more powerful option and for a more defensive Defogger, Latias does the job a lot better thanks to Healing Wish. They also aren't SR-weak, unlike Zapdos.

All in all, Zapdos just doesn't find its place in the current metagame due to being outperformed in every single role it's supposed to fulfill. It cannot fulfill its tasks consistently nor efficiently. Sure, it's nice to have something like that in one teamslot, but it's easily worn down and that means you'll easily lose your multitasking Pokémon from the match. I'm likely only going to have to repeat myself even more, so just drop the bird to B-.

Also rofl at constantly referencing to Mandibuzz as male when it's a female-only species.
 
ok so now we are using chip damage from sand as an argument to put something into b- i cant even ...

You say that Zapdos has trouble with more mons than Skarm and i realy dont feel like making a list right now, but this is wrong. If you had experience using Zapdos you would know that, why he cant just switch into and beat all that many things, he can beat or at least severly damage lots of mons in a 1on1 szenario. Things like Zard X/Ttar are among the few mons he cant do anything about aside from toxic. And there are more than enough things he can defog on like Ferro, Scizor etc. His semi good bulk is more than compensated by his amazing typing so thats hardly an issue. The only good argument against him that cant be used against Skarm/Mandi is 4 MSS but again, that doesnt justify such a big rank difference. Anyway i ve made my points do what you want with it.

They also aren't SR-weak, unlike Zapdos.
Yeah instead they are complete pursuit bait which is realy useful against sand offense teams with ttar on them... oh w8... not to mention that latias is freaking A+ and not B. And comparing Mega Man with Zapdos is outright stupid as they fill completly different roles and are used on different kind of teams.
 
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Nominating Lucario for B Rank over B-. Lucario is by no means a bad option for a late game sweeper due to the metagame's shift in mons that would check it under normal circumstances ie. SpDef Gliscor (+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 341-403 (96.8 - 114.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock), Mega Venusaur (+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 347-409 (96.6 - 113.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock), Unaware Clefable (252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 367-432 (93.1 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock). Both forms of priority are incredibly useful in the late game, allowing the Lucario user to clean up the remains of other frail, weakened mons on the opposition (Bullet Punch for Choice Scarf Terrakion vs balanced, Extreme Speed managing an OHKO on Talonflame while also avoiding annoying 50/50s that Bisharp faces with Sucker Punch). In comparison to Bisharp as a late game sweeper, Lucario compromises a STAB 80 BP attack for a less powerful 80 BP attack with +2 priority that ensures a KO without facing 50/50s. Of course, with metagame trends such as the increase of Sand Offense with Excadrill, Bisharp appears to be the overall better option, due to the sheer power that STAB Sucker Punch provides, in a generation that favors Dark type attacks. While being unable to perform a task other than sweeping with Swords Dance (Bisharp is also commonly used as a Pursuit trapper), Lucario brings to the table one thing that Bisharp does not: coverage.

Commonly refered to as "Four Move Slot Syndrome," Lucario can utilize its distribution of coverage moves (namely Ice Punch, Bullet Punch, and Iron Tail), to cater to the needs of its team. Ice Punch allows Lucario the ability to to damage targets such as Landorus-T, Zapdos, and Support Dragonite. Bullet Punch can deal with fast checks to Bird Spam such as Choice Scarf Tyranitar, Choice Scarf Terrakion, Mega Aerodactyl and can pick off weakened Magic Guard Clefable(+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 291-346 (73.8 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery). Despite its poor accuracy, Iron Tail has several uses including, but not limited to: luring in Mega Venusaur, Clefable, and SpDef Gliscor, something Azumarill, Charizard X, Landorus, and Greninja all can benefit from.

tl;dr Lucario is underrated because it can take advantage of metagame changes, while performing its role as a late game sweeper with priority and coverage. It's nowhere near as good as Bisharp which has access to Pursuit, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, higher attack, and an amazing ability, but it can still provide team support via coverage moves.
 
ok so now we are using chip damage from sand as an argument to put something into b- i cant even ...

You say that Zapdos has trouble with more mons than Skarm and i realy dont feel like making a list right now, but this is wrong. If you had experience using Zapdos you would know that, why he cant just switch into and beat all that many things, he can beat or at least severly damage lots of mons in a 1on1 szenario. Things like Zard X/Ttar are among the few mons he cant do anything about aside from toxic. And there are more than enough things he can defog on like Ferro, Scizor etc. His semi good bulk is more than compensated by his amazing typing so thats hardly an issue. The only good argument against him that cant be used against Skarm/Mandi is 4 MSS but again, that doesnt justify such a big rank difference. Anyway i ve made my points i am not going to convince you anyway so its up to the mods to decide.
It's absolutely magnificent how the Sandstorm damage has caught your eye so much, yet my main argument about its absolutely horrendous matchup against Sand Offense you completely seem to misregard. That is the main reason why it should drop. Yes, the Eons are A+, but they're much fucking better Defoggers than Zapdos. Sure, they're Pursuit bait, but they have many redeeming qualities and aren't completely outclassed. Zapdos is outperformed in every role it can perform and while it's able to multitask, it cannot do so with great efficiency.

Mega Manectric and Zapdos are both used as Flying Spam checks; in that regard, they're comparable and Mega Manectric is far superior. They differ in all other fields, but in the specific function of Flying Spam checking Zapdos just sucks compared to Mega Manectric and Rotom-W among Electric-types.

I'm done talking to a person who completely misses the main point of my posts and I believe I've explained all there is to explain as to why Zapdos should drop to B-.
 

RichieTheGarchomp

Banned deucer.
man it's so obvious that the empoleon haters have never used it. empoleon is pretty good. killer defensive typing lets it serve as a good response to clefable, lati@s bar eq/tbolt (which are rarer nowadays), greninja, and azumarill (superpower is ass on this btw lol). it can run either a choice specs offensive set or a defensive support set. anecdotal experience: specs hydro ohkoed a breloom after rocks. specs is a pretty damn strong, excellent supporting nuke. its defensive typing lets it pivot into or at least check quite a few mons and then proceed to smash the opposing team in with really poweful attacks. defensive empoleon meanwhile has solid supporting options in stealth rock, roar, defog as well as a scald and toxic to pose a nice threat and cripple opposing mons (btw sr + defog is ass please don't run that). it really requires very little support too, which is pretty huge when comparing it to other mons in that range of ranks. c is plenty fair for it.
I've used empoleon before, its decent. I think it's just not par with the meta. I think C is good for it, also. Honestly, I'm kind of edging to C+, but that's pushing it. It has a great typing, an aboe decent move pool, a great defensive typing, and it learns defog! Now that I'm thinking about it more, with the abundance of Fighting types (excluding Keldeo and some others) and if Keldeo is a problem you can run Gardevoir.
I think Empoleon is rather overlooked, but I think it can learn roar too... Making it a specs runner, air balloon rocks/defogger, phazer, and even a pivot to things like Amoongus and MVenu! This thing can be the next big thing, and it will get even more usage if it gets a mega.
 
I've used empoleon before, its decent. I think it's just not par with the meta. I think C is good for it, also. Honestly, I'm kind of edging to C+, but that's pushing it. It has a great typing, an aboe decent move pool, a great defensive typing, and it learns defog! Now that I'm thinking about it more, with the abundance of Fighting types (excluding Keldeo and some others) and if Keldeo is a problem you can run Gardevoir.
I think Empoleon is rather overlooked, but I think it can learn roar too... Making it a specs runner, air balloon rocks/defogger, phazer, and even a pivot to things like Amoongus and MVenu! This thing can be the next big thing, and it will get even more usage if it gets a mega.
Honestly man you need to do what I'm doing and lurk some more....


Your first part is about why it's not at C+ level and fits C better. Yet you make no comparisons to pokemon in either bracket? So is this just random speculation or?

How is Mega Gardevoir a Keldeo counter when both the common sets gets Gardevoir outsped and 2hkoed?

Air balloon rocks isn't a set and I'm pretty positive it doesn't want balloon unless it's being used specifically as an exca check but that's way to risky.

Pivot to amoongus and venu? Yes it stops both in there tracks barring sleep clause. But how is it a pivot?

The next big thing yet you're arguing for only C rank?

And speculation on whether it gets a mega or not is useless.

So I'd recommend either evaluating your posts quite a bit more or lurking for a while longer...
 
victini493RMT Beat me to the punch on that Lucario nomination. I've been using it a lot more lately and man that thing cleans up nicely. It has good attack, great move pool, decent speed and a pretty good typing. I think B is a solid spot for it, as it still has quite a few checks.
 

RichieTheGarchomp

Banned deucer.
Honestly man you need to do what I'm doing and lurk some more....


Your first part is about why it's not at C+ level and fits C better. Yet you make no comparisons to pokemon in either bracket? So is this just random speculation or?

How is Mega Gardevoir a Keldeo counter when both the common sets gets Gardevoir outsped and 2hkoed?

Air balloon rocks isn't a set and I'm pretty positive it doesn't want balloon unless it's being used specifically as an exca check but that's way to risky.

Pivot to amoongus and venu? Yes it stops both in there tracks barring sleep clause. But how is it a pivot?

The next big thing yet you're arguing for only C rank?

And speculation on whether it gets a mega or not is useless.

So I'd recommend either evaluating your posts quite a bit more or lurking for a while longer...
Lurking won't do shit. WOOOO! I get to see people post more. Seriously, I have my own opinions and I don't wanna follow other peoples way of thinking.
When I mention MGarde as a check is because with its special bulk it can easily take a Secret Sword, hence the player using Keldeo goes for it when Empoleon is out. Hyper voice easily KOs Keldeo if it stays in, which it probably won't, hence Specs exists. The next big thing can be C rank, hence next, as future tense. Iirc pivot usually forces a switch out, hence Empoleon's special bulk and resistances will easily make a switch out, if a Pokemon is sleeping in your team.
Many people who use Empoleon run AB, but they use it primarily for what you said, as a Sand check/counter. I don't have time to compare, but if you want me to I could.
 
Many people who use Empoleon run AB, but they use it primarily for what you said, as a Sand check/counter.
yeah please lurk more, this statement is extremely false. Your posts honestly show that you really don't know what you're saying half the time, from the "Lando-I has no reliable recovery" to the stat analysis thing to this to your post in the Stall thread. Seeing some discussion from players who know the OU metagame very well could definitely improve yours. I don't mean any offense.
 

RichieTheGarchomp

Banned deucer.
yeah please lurk more, this statement is extremely false. Your posts honestly show that you really don't know what you're saying half the time, from the "Lando-I has no reliable recovery" to the stat analysis thing to this to your post in the Stall thread. Seeing some discussion from players who know the OU metagame very well could definitely improve yours. I don't mean any offense.
B... Lando I has no reliable recovery.

So... Since I think differently and I'm an ou dweller I should just lurk in Overused thread (half the posts here aren't even ou Pokemon, HINT HINT.) I know the ou meta, but the stuff were spewing out here is usually overlooked UU/RU mons that have shit rank. If you know the ou meta, you must know EVERY SINGLE fully evo poke?
Note: Lando T has no reliable recovery but it still tears through the OU meta as an intimidate/Rocks/Scarf combo and it's still A+ even though an S rank mon is not as good in the meta but has reached "Conc. Reached."
Edit: it's no use. I'll just start a flame war. Better research every ranked Pokemon and shutup till then.
Also, the go lurk pun was nb.
 
B... Lando I has no reliable recovery.
.
Could you just stop? You're so obnoxious it hurts.

Anyways, I'd like to bring up Conkeldurr again because I feel like it's been getting a weird amount of hate lately while it's really not that bad at all, and has gotten way better with the recent bans. It's a nice check to Sand Offense, while being a good sponge on the special side, and puts a lot of pressure on your opponent to not mindlessly spam WoW or T-wave. I feel like he's been getting a lot of hate lately, and feel like B would fit him way better, since he just looks out of place in B- alongside stuff like Chesnaught and Sableye which are a lot more one-dimensional.
 
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RichieTheGarchomp

Banned deucer.
[Embarassing me]

Anyways, I'd like to bring up Conkeldurr again because I feel like it's been getting a weird amount of hate lately while it's really not that bad at all, and has gotten way better with the recent bans. It's a nice check to Sand Offense, while being a good sponge on the special side, and puts a lot of pressure on your opponent to not mindlessly spam WoW or T-wave. I feel like he's been getting a lot of hate lately, and feel like B would fit him way better, since he just looks out of place in B- alongside stuff like Chesnaught and Sableye which are a lot more one-dimensional.
I'll probably post again just cause I'm not opposing your thought. Actually I totally agree.
By far the most used Sand setter, TTar, is basically countered by Conk. Conk actually hurts many SR setters; like Skarmory, Ttar, and Mamo. It opposes Sand, which is decently popular in OU. It is bulky and can run many different sets.
I'll go for nomming conk for B.
 
i definitely agree with empoleon moving up, i've advocated it for quite a while; i really really like the penguin. it has the coolest defensive typing and a nice offensive one as well, seeing as steel-type stab is rare but beneficial and water-type stab is always good. it's been said a lot by now, empoleon has one defensive set and one offensive one, though there's heaps of room to innovate with it. i personally built a team the other day around subpetaya agility empoleon just for nostalgia's sake, and it was really fun to use. but, as for the best set, which is in my opinion the defensive set, it is such a great answer to so many pokemon thanks to its stats. azumarill, subddgyarados, kingdra and fighting move-less kabutops, with scald and roar for setup / substitute sweepers. then specs empoleon has that amazing steel-type stab for clefable which typically invests in physical defense, and even calm mind sets crumble to it. its power is actually pretty damn good at halting switch-ins. i don't run defog empoleon at all but it's probably usable, you start delving into 4mss there though. c rank for sure.
 

RichieTheGarchomp

Banned deucer.
Another thing I'd like to point out is Tangrowth. It's bulky, AV set sponges 2 S ranks stab moves, it's Regenerator ability, it being a mixed attacker, and is quite strong overall. I don't think it deserves to live near things like Venomoth, Diancie, Gourgeist, and Toxicroak.
Just like Empoleon, I think Growth would be cool in C.
Im sorry if this sounds wrong.
 

Mix

mahmood soldi
is a Past WCoP Champion
Gardevoir and Medicham in A+, now only Jirachi and Slowbro/Mew can stop that mons, they are the biggest treaths with Mega-Heracross.
I don't see much Gyarados-Mega now, with Mew and Slowbro, Thundurus-I, Keldeo, Azumarill; so Gyarados in A/A-. Mew now is one of the best stallbreaker, with the stallbreaker movepool (Taunt,WoW,Knock Off,Roost) it can be check a big part of the metagame, Mew in A+.
 

Albacore

sludge bomb is better than sludge wave
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MDos for A- is pretty ridiculous, but honestly? Although I still think it's the best DDer by a margin, it dropping makes a little sense, given how popular and good defensive Water and Grass types are becoming in this metagame (particularly Ferrothorn, Slowbro, Alomomola, and Celebi to a lesser extent). Not to mention Scarf Lando-T is on pretty much every fifth team and while not being a perfect answer to it given that it doesn't come close to OHKOing from full health, still slows it down with the help of Intimidate (also, I'm seeing some people start to run Superpower on their scarf Landos, perhaps specifically for MGyara).
Also, and this may be because of the shiny new wallbreakers and Pinsir's popularity, but I can't remember the last time I saw MGyarados at all (I actually see regular dos far more often).
Oh, and sweepers are kind of a dying breed to be honest : from what I can tell, revenge killers, wallbreakers, and tanks are becoming more and more dominant over setup sweepers. I don't really see anything truly "sweep" anymore. Since MGyara is basically the definition of a setup sweeper, maybe it would make sense to drop it in that sense.

I'm still leaning towards keeping it A+ though, simply because it was a solid A+ mon the last time I encountered/used it, and though in theory it might have gotten worse, I have yet to see if it actually has in practice. (Also, I'm going to need more convincing than just "I don't see it anymore", so I'd like it if people who have actually used MGyara recently to give their input)
 
Disagreeing with Mega Gar and MegaCham in A+. Compared to the other two Mega wallbreakers, Mega Heracross and Mega Charizard Y(everybody seems to forget this orange guy right now lol) they have piss poor bulk and defensive typing(exp Cham), they don't provide any utility against more offensive teams, unlike Heracross which has the good bulk and the defensive typing to check stuff like Landorus-T, Bisharp, Tyranitar and Excadrill, as well as the fact that its STAB and coverage moves are multi-hit, which is extremely good for antileading purposes, as well as breaking subs and stuff like that, and Mega Charizard which can remove the weather for stopping the sweep of weather abusers. I'd actually say to move Mega Medicham to A- because it's easily the worst of the four, relying on a dreadful STAB, expecially with Protect being common on Heatran, Ferrothorn, Chansey and Mola, having the worst bulk of all four and the most reliable checks/counters of all four(Slowbro, Sableye, Mew, Victini which are much more resilent to Pursuit compared with Charizard's checks like Chansey, Latias and Goodra-the only exception being probably Ampharos).

About Mega Gyarados, Slowbro and stallbreaker Mew are nothing more than free setup for the Substitute set, so I won't consider them a factor that makes him worse.
 

Albacore

sludge bomb is better than sludge wave
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I'd actually say to move Mega Medicham to A- because it's easily the worst of the four, relying on a dreadful STAB, expecially with Protect being common on Heatran, Ferrothorn, Chansey and Mola, having the worst bulk of all four and the most reliable checks/counters of all four(Slowbro, Sableye, Mew, Victini which are much more resilent to Pursuit compared with Charizard's checks like Chansey, Latias and Goodra-the only exception being probably Ampharos).
I really disagree with this. Sure, MMedi is the least reliable of the mega wallbreakers, but holy crap does HJK hit like a truck even when compared to Hyper Voice/Pin Missile/Fire Blast. One of my only problems with MGarde is that the opponent can easily switch to a Hyper Voice resist and take around 40% from it. MMedi on the other hand can deal around 60% to its resists which is kinda insane. As for Protect users, there's this thing called Substitute which lets you play around them (not a reliable anwser I know, but you're more than likely to win the protect-sub 50/50 war since you pretty much have 4 chances to guess correctly). Also those checks and counters you listed are really not as reliable as you think they are. Slowbro can't switch into Thunder Punch (a very viable option on MMedi given that it messes with its most popular counter) and Mew really isn't a good anwser to MMedi at all IMO, since it just gets subbed over and it has to rely on HJK missing to actually beat MMedi and, unless it runs a phys def spread which it rarely does, gets 2HKO'd after a bit of prior damage. Victini has to run 252/64 physical bulk to actually live 2 HJKs, and can't do that at all if rock are up.
About Mega Gyarados, Slowbro and stallbreaker Mew are nothing more than free setup for the Substitute set, so I won't consider them a factor that makes him worse.
Just a small nitpick : A lot of Slowbro have started to carry Grass Knot so Sub MGyara isn't a foolproof answer to it. Also Standard Mew outspeeds and burns you unless you're running Jolly MGyara which IMO gives up too much power to really be worth it even if it does let you set up over Mew.
 
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Srn

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I really disagree with this. Sure, MMedi is the least reliable of the mega wallbreakers, but holy crap does HJK hit like a truck even when compared to Hyper Voice/Pin Missile/Fire Blast. One of my only problems with MGarde is that the opponent can easily switch to a Hyper Voice resist and take around 40% from it. MMedi on the other hand can deal around 60% to its resists which is kinda insane. As for Protect users, there's this thing called Substitute which lets you play around them (not a reliable anwser I know, but you're more than likely to win the protect-sub 50/50 war since you pretty much have 4 chances to guess correctly). Also those checks and counters you listed are really not as reliable as you think they are. Slowbro can't switch into Thunder Punch (a very viable option on MMedi given that it messes with its most popular counter) and Mew really isn't a good anwser to MMedi at all IMO, since it just gets subbed over and it has to rely on HJK missing to actually beat MMedi and, unless it runs a phys def spread which it rarely does, gets 2HKO'd after a bit of prior damage. Victini has to run 252/64 physical bulk to actually live 2 HJKs, and can't do that at all if rock are up.

Just a small nitpick : A lot of Slowbro have started to carry Grass Knot so Sub MGyara isn't a foolproof answer to it. Also Standard Mew outspeeds and burns you unless you're running Jolly MGyara which IMO gives up too much power to really be worth it even if it does let you set up over Mew.
Nobody is denying mega medicham's power here. Its ability to dent resists is cool but it still has hard counters like doublade and cresselia and ultimately can't get past them without making its moveset bad. The point here is that mega medicham's utility against offense is limited, unlike mega heracross and mega char-y which can actually switch into attacks and hit back hard as well. I think we all know that mega cham and mega garde hardly if ever are able to switch into any attack on offense (specs secret sword anybody), and this significantly lowers their actual use against offensive teams. Meanwhile, you have char-y being able to eat up hydro pumps from fkin greninja and mega heracross having a solid shot of living LO psyshock from latias. Their bulk aint anything to scoff at, which is why what separates the wallbreakers here.
A-->U has power, but cannot switch into shit.
A+--> U has power and can also switch into shit.

TL; DR the point is that mega hera and mega char-y can switch into shit, so put them in A+ and keep frail wallbreakers like cham and garde in A.
 
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