Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[Wargreymon]

Mega gardy is not an A+ mon, no way. It has extremely limited switch in opportunities and is pretty easily revenged because of laughable physical bulk. On top of its issues it's not as powerful as most make it out to be. Hyper voice hurts and I'm not down playing the power but mega gardy fails to 2HKO quite a few specially bulky pokemon where as the other wallbreakers don't. People talk about the 3 mega wallbreakers (referring to heracross, medicham and gardy) and don't mention zard Y when zard Y is a better wallbreaker than gard. Fire blast hits much harder than hyper voice. Here's a good example;

232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 104+ SpD Mew: 186-219 (46 - 54.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 104+ SpD Mew in Sun: 256-303 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Mega gardy has trouble against offence and even stall because while it hits very hard, it lacks the ridiculous power that the other wallbreakers have.

She is a fantastic pokemon but definitely not on the same level as heracross, zard y, pinsir and other A+ mons. Fellow A rank medicham also has some positives over her in the form of priority. She is the weakest of the mega wallbreakers when talking about their spammable STABs and her physical bulk is a pretty big issue for various reasons. The only positive over the others, excluding heracross, is that hyper voice is 100% accurate compared to fire blast and HJK. Mega gardevoir should stay A rank.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

MDos for A- is pretty ridiculous, but honestly? Although I still think it's the best DDer by a margin, it dropping makes a little sense, given how popular and good defensive Water and Grass types are becoming in this metagame (particularly Ferrothorn, Slowbro, Alomomola, and Celebi to a lesser extent). Not to mention Scarf Lando-T is on pretty much every fifth team and while not being a perfect answer to it given that it doesn't come close to OHKOing from full health, still slows it down with the help of Intimidate (also, I'm seeing some people start to run Superpower on their scarf Landos, perhaps specifically for MGyara).
Also, and this may be because of the shiny new wallbreakers and Pinsir's popularity, but I can't remember the last time I saw MGyarados at all (I actually see regular dos far more often).
Oh, and sweepers are kind of a dying breed to be honest : from what I can tell, revenge killers, wallbreakers, and tanks are becoming more and more dominant over setup sweepers. I don't really see anything truly "sweep" anymore. Since MGyara is basically the definition of a setup sweeper, maybe it would make sense to drop it in that sense.

I'm still leaning towards keeping it A+ though, simply because it was a solid A+ mon the last time I encountered/used it, and though in theory it might have gotten worse, I have yet to see if it actually has in practice. (Also, I'm going to need more convincing than just "I don't see it anymore", so I'd like it if people who have actually used MGyara recently to give their input)

gyara can stay A+. its got bulk up the ass, and it can run sub because it doesnt need ice fang. its actually closer to S than dropping to A. its normal form is getting pretty popular which can create some mind games. its typing lets it set up on tons of stuff pre and post mega, and since most of its counters are really passive(bulky waters)it can just sub up and overpower them. not 2 call bro passive, but if it doesnt run GK it cant touch this thing. and when you look at A, its really better than everything in there. and lol since when are setup sweepers a dying breed? mega heracross, mega pinsir, clefable, talonflame, bisharp, mega scizor, mega ttar, diggersby, and terrakion are all prominent.

 

[Jaroda]

I've been running Mega Gyarados the past two months and while it's still beast, admittedly people are running far more checks to this thing than before. And there isn't a perfect combination of Taunt/Substitute/Earthquake to handle all of them. Ice Fang is near mandatory for the third move if you ask me for Grass and Dragons and it helpful for that added power again Landorus-T switch ins. I'm honestly considering Thunder Fang as your third move because Azumarill is SO common and a frequent check to threaten with Play Rough and you need to have a Sub already or get lucky with a Waterfall flinch. TF would also get Slowbro, Skarmory, Keldeo etc and can hit Rotom-W at least neutrally. He's still amazing but it's harder to do his job then before definitely. I can understand a nomination for A but I'm still inclined for A+

 

[Wargreymon]

The problem I have with mega gyarados being nominated for A is the same issue people had with landorus-I dropping to A+, it's just way better than every other pokemon in that rank.
Seriously look at A rank, megados is way better than everything there. The type mindgames, intimidate + the immense bulk, moldbreaker to hit a ton of stuff that would otherwise be problematic, the ability to wreck stall with taunt etc it's just way too good for A rank.

 

[AM]

It comes down to the fact that M-Gyarados, as mentioned, is obviously better than the mons that reside in A. It's of more viability than those like Tyranitar and Gengar, and considering proper team building and practical use, has less opportunity cost than those such as M-Garde and M-Cham. It's one of the more consistent set up sweepers around. Anyone who has seen higher levels of play, or at least play that isn't absolutely horrendous, know this. Its typing and natural bulk just stops so much in there tracks and often times forces switches to a necessary check or counter so that teams don't get totally steam rolled by it. Thundurus usage for the most part as declined which makes M-Gyarados's life better, not having to worry about Prankster Twave as much as before. People will go out of the normal Waterfall, Ice fang, Earthquake, Dragon dance set to cater to their own teams needs now whether that be through something like Stone Edge, Substitute, Taunt, etc. It takes one good play to get M-Gyarados going, and takes one good check/counter of the way to win you games. It's fine in A+.

As far as the whole Tangrowth discussion goes, it's really not that bad as people are making it out to be. That doesn't mean it should move up though. Already mentioned, it's simply outclassed and it's basically an inferior Amoonguss, Chesnaught, M-Venusuar, and Ferrothorn as it tries to pull off all the roles they play at once. It's mostly the fact that you have to build around Tangrowth much more than you would say, Amoonguss for example. You now have to take into account of its poor special defense, inferior singular typing that isn't too useful, and the steep competition it faces for a team slot due to the opportunity cost it provides. If we're looking at it from a viability standpoint, I don't see it as viable as things such as Bronzong or Doublade, which still require support but can for the most part actually do something more relevant in games besides sitting there against obvious stuff it walls already. It's fine in C-.

 

[Durant]

Nominating Gastrodon for C+.

Ok I know this thing moved up not too long ago but I still think it deserves C+ more than C. Why you may ask, well just because it checks or counters so much shit. It can check or counter Azumarill, Thunderus, Charizard X, Keldeo, Heatran, Excadrill, Mega Scizor, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Aerodactyl, Manaphy and Rotom-Wash just to name a few. It even does well against quite a lot of lower ranked Pokemon like Weavile, Kabutops, Raikou yadayadada. It can also deal rather decent with Sand offense which is extremely hyped right now. Due to this Gastrodon can wall at least one threat per team which from my experience makes it useful in every battle. Some might say it faces competition from Quagsire who checks the same threats but Gastrodon has a few advantages over Quagsire. Storm Drain while inferior to Unaware is still a great ability that allows it to check the likes of Keldeo and Azumarill better which is really useful. However most importantly Gastrodon isn't so damn passive. Due to Quagsire being so passive it only really has use on stall teams while Gastrodon can also fit nicely on more balanced teams. Gastrodon has higher special attack and Storm Drain boosts can make it decently strong which Quagsire can't. There are also offensive sets like Curse and Choice Specs but I don't really have any experience with those. Gastrodon does have some faults however like not learning Stealth Rock unlike Quagsire, still not being all that offensive and being a huge Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn but even then I still think Gastrodon deserves C+ rank, heck even then B- doesn't sound too weird. Also Gastrodon is also a lot better than the other C rank Pokemon like Bronzong, Mega Houndoom and Rotom-Heat who have next to no real niche in OU. So please Gastrodon for C+.

 

[Red Cat]

Nominating Gastrodon for C+.

Ok I know this thing moved up not too long ago but I still think it deserves C+ more than C. Why you may ask, well just because it checks or counters so much shit. It can check or counter Azumarill, Thunderus, Charizard X, Keldeo, Heatran, Excadrill, Mega Scizor, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Aerodactyl, Manaphy and Rotom-Wash just to name a few. It even does well against quite a lot of lower ranked Pokemon like Weavile, Kabutops, Raikou yadayadada. It can also deal rather decent with Sand offense which is extremely hyped right now. Due to this Gastrodon can wall at least one threat per team which from my experience makes it useful in every battle. Some might say it faces competition from Quagsire who checks the same threats but Gastrodon has a few advantages over Quagsire. Storm Drain while inferior to Unaware is still a great ability that allows it to check the likes of Keldeo and Azumarill better which is really useful. However most importantly Gastrodon isn't so damn passive. Due to Quagsire being so passive it only really has use on stall teams while Gastrodon can also fit nicely on more balanced teams. Gastrodon has higher special attack and Storm Drain boosts can make it decently strong which Quagsire can't. There are also offensive sets like Curse and Choice Specs but I don't really have any experience with those. Gastrodon does have some faults however like not learning Stealth Rock unlike Quagsire, still not being all that offensive and being a huge Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn but even then I still think Gastrodon deserves C+ rank, heck even then B- doesn't sound too weird. Also Gastrodon is also a lot better than the other C rank Pokemon like Bronzong, Mega Houndoom and Rotom-Heat who have next to no real niche in OU. So please Gastrodon for C+.

Gastrodon is basically as passive as Quagsire. 92 base Special Attack is better than Quagsire, but that still isn't scaring many Pokemon in OU. The only niche Gastrodon has over Quagsire is Storm Drain, and that really only helps it against Keldeo and Rotom-W as Azumarill can still smash it with Play Rough if it is a CB or BD variant. Keldeo has a 25% chance to 2HKO Gastrodon with Specs Secret Sword after SR, so Gastrodon is a shaky check and all it can do is Toxic Keldeo. C rank is fine for Gastrodon because its niche is really small too.

 

[AM]

Thought changer, since we really decided Mamo's fate.
Since I'm more of a Golurk guy, I won't say much about this mon.
But, what do you think about Chomp? Should it stay, go up, go down, etc.
It runs a variety of sets, from FS SR to Scarfchomp.
All in all, it's a decent pokemon. DONT USE ITS MEGA.

I understand there's this obsession with moving all the higher ranked stuff up and down, judging by how these threads turn out, but man it's just tiring =I. That's all the discussion ends up being and then we end up talking about the same old stuff over and over again when so much of it is 1. Based on preference due to playstyles 2. Not even a huge metagame shift right now that warrants such discussion. It's kind of obvious that lower ranked stuff needs to be discussed and it gets ignored cause we're arguing over something that has done the same thing for months now and hasn't even been effected by anything largely relevant.

The C ranks and a bit of B I guess need work, plain and simple. It's a mess right now cause there is stuff that is blatantly higher or lower depending on how the meta is at this point in time. Some stuff needs to move up or down to solidify what warrants say, a C+ ranked mon towards a C- mon for example. I've only used so much so I was only able to speak on somethings earlier but I'm positive there's more that can be considered or fix. I see all you high ladder players using obscure stuff like what's in C rank so don't try to hide it lol. Might expand a bit more if I get to test some more stuff later. Just my thoughts really.

 

[theV8man]

Thought changer, since we really decided Mamo's fate.
Since I'm more of a Golurk guy, I won't say much about this mon.
But, what do you think about Chomp? Should it stay, go up, go down, etc.
It runs a variety of sets, from FS SR to Scarfchomp.
All in all, it's a decent pokemon. DONT USE ITS MEGA.

Just wanna pop in and say Mega Garchomp can be absolutely terrifying if you give it sand support. Name a Pokemon that can switch into it's mixed set.

That's right. And unlike other heavy hitters, this guy actually has some speed and pretty great bulk to switch in. I'm not saying it should rise, but if you're making a sand team there is reason to use it as wallbreaker.

 

[Halcyon.]

I haven't really played much since Aegi was banned but I'm trying to come back and I have a few things I'd like to say about the current discussions. Bear with me if I seem like I'm wrong. I very well might be.

Anyway, first off is Mega Gyarados. I personally love Gyarados (both forms), and I think a metagame surrounded by sand is a good one for Gyara considering how easily it fits on thsoe types of teams. Not to mention the rising popularity of stuff like Magnezone, which Gyarados also really appreciates. Its typing gives it plenty of opportunities to set up, it can switch in on predicted EQs and Earth Powers as well as set up all over Ferrothorn and Heatran with Substitute. I honestly can't really see a good reason for it to drop, it's just so good right now.

As for Zapdos, I can't remember the last time I saw a team that seriously used Zapdos. I mean waaaay back in December it was good for Mega Lucario, and ever since then it just got worse. It loses to every Stealth Rocker besides Ferrothorn unless it chooses to run HP Ice, which means you become setup bait for Scizor and lose to Ferro. It's bulk is mediocre and it relies too much on its typing to be effective, but it also makes it weak to rocks, meaning it's hard to keep at a good health. Not sure if it should drop, but I just think it should be known that Zapdos is most definitely not good in this meta.

Yeah just my two cents.

 

[Flarowak]

I haven't really played much since Aegi was banned but I'm trying to come back and I have a few things I'd like to say about the current discussions. Bear with me if I seem like I'm wrong. I very well might be.

Anyway, first off is Mega Gyarados. I personally love Gyarados (both forms), and I think a metagame surrounded by sand is a good one for Gyara considering how easily it fits on thsoe types of teams. Not to mention the rising popularity of stuff like Magnezone, which Gyarados also really appreciates. Its typing gives it plenty of opportunities to set up, it can switch in on predicted EQs and Earth Powers as well as set up all over Ferrothorn and Heatran with Substitute. I honestly can't really see a good reason for it to drop, it's just so good right now.

As for Zapdos, I can't remember the last time I saw a team that seriously used Zapdos. I mean waaaay back in December it was good for Mega Lucario, and ever since then it just got worse. It loses to every Stealth Rocker besides Ferrothorn unless it chooses to run HP Ice, which means you become setup bait for Scizor and lose to Ferro. It's bulk is mediocre and it relies too much on its typing to be effective, but it also makes it weak to rocks, meaning it's hard to keep at a good health. Not sure if it should drop, but I just think it should be known that Zapdos is most definitely not good in this meta.

Yeah just my two cents.

I agree on Zapdos, it's viability has dropped. I think the only thing is good for now is bird spam, and there are quite a few things that just do that better.

 

[theV8man]

I haven't really played much since Aegi was banned but I'm trying to come back and I have a few things I'd like to say about the current discussions. Bear with me if I seem like I'm wrong. I very well might be.

Anyway, first off is Mega Gyarados. I personally love Gyarados (both forms), and I think a metagame surrounded by sand is a good one for Gyara considering how easily it fits on thsoe types of teams. Not to mention the rising popularity of stuff like Magnezone, which Gyarados also really appreciates. Its typing gives it plenty of opportunities to set up, it can switch in on predicted EQs and Earth Powers as well as set up all over Ferrothorn and Heatran with Substitute. I honestly can't really see a good reason for it to drop, it's just so good right now.

As for Zapdos, I can't remember the last time I saw a team that seriously used Zapdos. I mean waaaay back in December it was good for Mega Lucario, and ever since then it just got worse. It loses to every Stealth Rocker besides Ferrothorn unless it chooses to run HP Ice, which means you become setup bait for Scizor and lose to Ferro. It's bulk is mediocre and it relies too much on its typing to be effective, but it also makes it weak to rocks, meaning it's hard to keep at a good health. Not sure if it should drop, but I just think it should be known that Zapdos is most definitely not good in this meta.

Yeah just my two cents.

I think Gyarado's normal form is underrated. The classic bulky DD set is actually pretty incredible, setting up and beating a plethora of Pokemon.
Your're right, Zapdos seems to have lost some viability. In terms of birdspam, it does decently well against Pinsir, but Talonflame and Staraptor can both smash it on the switch, especially if SR is up. It's also one of the best Scizor counters, although Scizor's popularity seems to be going down. What's really problematic is that some Pokemon, such as Tyranitar/Dragons, switch into it pretty much freely and that's not good at all. I think I could see Zapdos dropping.

 

[Jaroda]

Don't act like a dick. Instead of targeting the person commenting. It's bad sport to target the person and not his argument.
Why is like 50% of this damn community so rude to newcomers to this forum?
I'll get a hold of it soon.
Since all you do is target people, could you please go back to lurking? You obviously are better this way.

I've seen much of your latest posts in this thread. Your enthusiasm is noted and appreciated, but so far frankly when you bring up discussion of certain mon, your reasoning is far too generalized. You rarely put the mon into context of the current metagame and explain why it should be the rank you think it should be in comparison to its competition.

Smogon is honestly very receptive to newcomers. There is an entire Mentorship program to help new users. However, the frequent users know what they are talking about and are put off by someone that thinks they know what they are talking about when they are obviously not up to speed on current meta trends. Could people say it more politely? Certainly. But frankly in a thread like this speculation and enthusiasm aren't enough, you need good meta knowledge to contribute accurate evaluations of the OU tier.

So sorry if you feel alienated, but frankly, this thread in particular you need to know your shit before contributing. Please do stick around and become knowledgeable because we appreciate everybody's insightful input.

MOVING ON!

In regards to Mega Medicham and Mega Gardevoir, neither of them supersede Mega Heracross as one of the games best wallbreakers. In terms of bulk, coverage and power, Mega Heracross is left wanting for little. Mega Heracross is deserving of its A+ rank and Megacham and Megavoir are simply not up to snuff in comparison, so they should not move up to A+.

 

[Clone]

Don't act like a dick. Instead of targeting the person commenting. It's bad sport to target the person and not his argument.
Why is like 50% of this damn community so rude to newcomers to this forum?
I'll get a hold of it soon.
Since all you do is target people, could you please go back to lurking? You obviously are better this way.

I hate being that guy, but when the last person tried to be that guy, you completely disregarded what he said and continued on. This post will probably make me sound like a dick, but we need to set some things straight.

First off, most of your posts that I've read are either you talking about something that you really don't know much about, or stuff that's trying to sound smart when you're really just stating common knowledge and generally being annoying.

I'll take an example: you posted "Lando I has no recovery yet is S rank. Explain." I'm aware that this is old news, but a post like that simply shows that you have a very limited grasp on the meta. I won't go into detail about Lando I cuz it's not the point of this post, but he's a wallbreaker and doesn't need recovery to do his job. Moving on.

I already mentioned that based on my observations that you have a limited grasp on the metagame. This is pretty much backed up by the fact that you said yourself that you've been playing on PS for only six months. That's not a long time. I've only been playing a little over a year and I'm still considered about or a little above average compared to most smogonites here (~1700 on PS or so). Six months ago I was terrible. I even made a post about how I thought Mega Luke was balanced because Scarfers could revenge him. Anyways the point is that just because you've been playing for a little while doesn't mean that you know everything about the game. This once again is backed by the lack of substance and fact in your posts, which are merely full of sheer bias and uninformed opinions. I was there at one point, and no one really listened to what I had to say.

So with that, I advise you to lurk more. Other people have said it, and they're right. Being told to lurk more isn't a bad thing. In fact, it's usually more beneficial to read the posts of better players and use those to guide you in your PS experience. Follow the posts of people in this thread like Jukain, TRC, Nog, alexwolf, boudouche, Ben gay, etc. there are other less known ppl who know a lot about the meta as well. Read their posts. Learn more about the meta. Use that knowledge to help yourself get better. Stop śhìt posting, go lurk, and come back later when you are able to make informed posts that actually contribute - and not derail - the topics at hand.

Finally, you really need to stop telling people to stop making fun of you. This is Smogon. You make bad posts, and people make fun of the people who make bad posts. That's just how it is here. There are exceptions, but they aren't that common. The only way to get them to stop is to stop complaining and do something about it by doing what I've already told you to do.

Also you telling other people to go lurk is being hypocritical and no one likes a hypocrite.

So stop śhìt posting, lurk around and read the posts of informed players, and come back when you are informed yourself. You derail this thread and its fucking annoying. And don't complain.

That is all.

 

[theV8man]

I hate being that guy, but when the last person tried to be that guy, you completely disregarded what he said and continued on. This post will probably make me sound like a dick, but we need to set some things straight.

First off, most of your posts that I've read are either you talking about something that you really don't know much about, or stuff that's trying to sound smart when you're really just stating common knowledge and generally being annoying.

I'll take an example: you posted "Lando I has no recovery yet is S rank. Explain." I'm aware that this is old news, but a post like that simply shows that you have a very limited grasp on the meta. I won't go into detail about Lando I cuz it's not the point of this post, but he's a wallbreaker and doesn't need recovery to do his job. Moving on.

I already mentioned that based on my observations that you have a limited grasp on the metagame. This is pretty much backed up by the fact that you said yourself that you've been playing on PS for only six months. That's not a long time. I've only been playing a little over a year and I'm still considered about or a little above average compared to most smogonites here (~1700 on PS or so). Six months ago I was terrible. I even made a post about how I thought Mega Luke was balanced because Scarfers could revenge him. Anyways the point is that just because you've been playing for a little while doesn't mean that you know everything about the game. This once again is backed by the lack of substance and fact in your posts, which are merely full of sheer bias and uninformed opinions. I was there at one point, and no one really listened to what I had to say.

So with that, I advise you to lurk more. Other people have said it, and they're right. Being told to lurk more isn't a bad thing. In fact, it's usually more beneficial to read the posts of better players and use those to guide you in your PS experience. Follow the posts of people in this thread like Jukain, TRC, Nog, alexwolf, boudouche, Ben gay, etc. there are other less known ppl who know a lot about the meta as well. Read their posts. Learn more about the meta. Use that knowledge to help yourself get better. Stop śhìt posting, go lurk, and come back later when you are able to make informed posts that actually contribute - and not derail - the topics at hand.

Finally, you really need to stop telling people to stop making fun of you. This is Smogon. You make bad posts, and people make fun of the people who make bad posts. That's just how it is here. There are exceptions, but they aren't that common. The only way to get them to stop is to stop complaining and do something about it by doing what I've already told you to do.

Also you telling other people to go lurk is being hypocritical and no one likes a hypocrite.

So stop śhìt posting, lurk around and read the posts of informed players, and come back when you are informed yourself. You derail this thread and its fucking annoying. And don't complain.

That is all.

To add on to this and what Ender Wiggin said, we're referring to when you post stuff like this:

Thought changer, since we really decided Mamo's fate.
Since I'm more of a Golurk guy, I won't say much about this mon.
But, what do you think about Chomp? Should it stay, go up, go down, etc.
It runs a variety of sets, from FS SR to Scarfchomp.
All in all, it's a decent pokemon. DONT USE ITS MEGA.

Garchomp has literally been discussed to death in this forum, and we actually agreed to change it's rank pretty recently. We're tired of talking about it and want to get to other stuff. You don't really come in here to ask for people's general opinions on popular Pokemon, if you're gonna post about something you should try to at least make some kind of point, maybe even suggest a rank change and support this with evidence. I don't mind newcomers, I used to be one too, but I suggest taking a more professional approach to this thread, as you seem to have gotten off the wrong foot with some people here.

EDIT: I agree with Jaroda's point about Mega Garde and Cham. Hera is the best choice because of it's bulk n' power, and should be ranked higher accordingly.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Damn the drama...

Anyway, just to quote Halcyon:

Not sure if it should drop, but I just think it should be known that Zapdos is most definitely not good in this meta.

This definitely means it should drop. Mons in B are pretty good now, and Zapdos just isn't on the same level. It isn't even as good as the mons in B-, and even some in C+ (well Toge should rise imho...), so a drop is totally warranted.

Celebi is good in this meta. Hawlucha is good as well. As is Raptor. Kingdra is amazing. Raikou is really cool. Zapdos definitely is not on the same league as them, since it really struggles to find a niche now. I personally never consider using it while teambuilding, idk if that's just me or not, but I can't really think of a situation in which I'd chose Zapdos over Thundurus, Latias, Skarm, etc. Okay, I know some people will nitpick over this (aka Zapdos beats Ferrothorn while Skarm doesn't, etc). There are reasons to use Zapdos, and it isn't terrible by any means. It's just that putting it on the same league as Raikou is insane. You could argue Raikou deserves B, which is totally possible, but w/e. Now that I look at it, I'd consider using all of the mons in B-, while I just wouldn't ever touch Zappy.

I know the "would I use it?" argument is flawed, as everyone's ideals for using mons is different, so if someone were to provide some evidence as to why Zapdos is a huge contributor the the meta now, I'd totally use it and admit I was wrong. However, I just can't think of Kingdra and Zapdos as equal in viability.

I also still think C+ to D needs a bit of a retouch.

retouch

Read this if you're interested why I think Togekiss should move to B-.

This guy is really cool looking, but is kinda nicheless in OU. It isn't bad, per se, but it's just not something one would traditionally use due to its taking of the mega slot, its lack of its mega's characteristics upon switching in, lack of bulk, and lack of a way to get past one of the two titans of OU, Azu. On paper, it doesn't sound too bad, but in practice, it just doesn't hold up. It being in C+ is a mistake, since in no way is it even on the same level as Doublade and Bronzong, who are C. I really wouldn't rank it, I guess D is acceptable, since it isn't terrible, and is nice, I guess, as a mixed attacker immune to status.
Not useless, but no real niche. See, it is unique, but it fails to have an effect on the metagame. Sure, use it if you want. It's just extremely matchup based, and will be useless if you face defensive teams, which are common. This is a lot better than Absol, since it is unique and has niche, but as such a tiny tiny tiny impact on the metagame that it's practically irrelevant. C- is the place for mons like this, in my opinion.

As for Gastrodon, a rise could make sense, since its ability to slaughter rain teams, electric types, volt turn teams, and teams with Heatran in one slot is SUPER useful.
Not hugely influential, but still a really good and relatively influential mon on stall teams, known for its ability to trash the 3/4 of the wallbreaking megas, terrakion, and pinsir. I'd rank it B-, but since this thread commonly emphasizes baby steps, C+ works.
Read this if you're interested why I think Empoleon belongs in C+. But again, baby steps are good here, so a rise to C would be a nice start.
I said the following about the C- rank when talking about Ditto, "it is unique and has niche, but as such a tiny tiny tiny impact on the metagame that it's practically irrelevant. C- is the place for mons like this, in my opinion." Hydreigon is different, since it really doesn't have a niche at all. It's more like Absol; it's a mon that you can list its good qualities and then theorize a niche, but in practice, it's usually better using something else. Like Absol, I wouldn't rank it (seriously, what separates Roserade from Absol in OU? Both are irrelevant mons now that were B- early on in this thread, and now finally have been accepted as terrible. Idk though, it could go in D with Zygarde, since it really doesn't do much, from what I've seen.

This thing really doesn't do much that Tornadus-T can't do. Yes, it hits harder and has priority Taunt + Rain Dance, but the extra Speed + Regenerator is what makes Tornadus-T viable. A support set with Tailwind or Rain Dance + Taunt + STAB + filler might be D worthy, but I'd never seriously use it when Tornadus-T exists. D or unranked please.

This guy's one niche was as a cleric that beat Aegislash, but now that Aegi's gone, I don't see what this guy's use is. Sure, its bulk is monstrous, but its bland typing doesn't really doesn't cover any threats in OU. Dark resists Dark, yes, but STAB Dark users are relatively rare, but when they do exist, they tend to use you as setup bait (Mega Ttar) since they resist Foul Play, or just attack you with their Fighting coverage (Weavile) since you pose no threat. Dark is immune to Psychic, yes, but the main offensive Psychic-type wallbreakers, Mega Medicham + Mega Gardevoir, have a secondary STAB that obliterates Umbreon. It does wall Lati@s, but there are better, more viable things for that. Lastly, Dark resists Ghost. The only common offensive Ghost is Gengar, who you do tend to wall. However, Gengar will end up burning you, so you don't want to stay in. Overall yes it does stuff, but its typing is very bland, and it overall doesn't contribute anything to OU. It's outclassed as a cleric in general by Clefable, and I think it's better for it to be unranked.
Is there anyway this could get unranked? It seriously has no true niche; possible uses for it are way too extreme to even really consider. For example, if I specifically needed a Defogger with Swift Swim, I'd have to use Lumineon. Or, I could use Rapid Spin > Defog, and use Kabutops. Idk if that makes sense now that I've said it, but it made sense in my head. Basically, a person with good rhetoric could make an argument for the usage of every Pokemon in existence (with a few exceptions like Loudred, Diglett, and Phione). These mons, mons that are never used and should never be used, tend to eventually get unranked, but there are a few stragglers, and Blissey is one of them. It isn't worn down by sandstorm. It's worn down less by Stealth Rock. 70 Special Attack > 30 Special Attack. It can take a weak knock off. These are its capabilities over Chansey. However, Chansey and Blissey's jobs are to serve as walls for stuff, and due to the huge (not an overstatement) increase in bulk, Chansey is the better choice nearly all the time. Sometimes it isn't the right choice, but that doesn't mean it needs to be ranked. Some teams need a defensive ground type with scald to function properly, but that doesn't mean Stunfisk needs a rank. Idk I think I'm thinking too much about Bliss... :'(

Also I've changed by mind about . Its ability to kill bulky waters + ferro is so useful for rain teams, and its definitely deserving of C-.

 

[alexwolf]

Deleted a bunch of posts that were based on the posts of RichieTheGarchomp about Garchomp, Tangrowth, and Mamoswine. Sorry for the good posts that i deleted, but it needed to happen because the thread would look weird with a bunch of quotes to a guy whose posts are nowhere to be found.

Also, RichieTheGarchomp, take the advice of the gyus above me before posting again if you don't want your posts getting deleted. If you can't do that i suggest you just lurk more and get to know this community a bit more before posting. Your enthusiasm is definitely a good thing, but you need more knowledge before posting in this thread.

And btw, here is a small update:

Hydreigon : C ---> C-
Rotom-H: C ---> C-
Quagsire: B+ ---> B
Rhyperior: B- ---> B
Jirachi: B ---> B+
Empoleon: C- ---> C
Zapdos: B ---> B-
Umbreon: D ---> Unranked

All of those were pretty much unanimously agreed on, so i don't think there is anything to explain.

I would like to see a bit more discussion about Sylveon rising to B-, as it's something i am seriously considering.

 

[Flarowak]

Deleted a bunch of posts that were based on the posts of RichieTheGarchomp about Garchomp, Tangrowth, and Mamoswine. Sorry for the good posts that i deleted, but it needed to happen because the thread would look weird with a bunch of quotes to a guy whose posts are nowhere to be found.

Also, RichieTheGarchomp, take the advice of the gyus above me before posting again if you don't want your post getting deleted. If you can't do that i suggest you just lurk more and get to know this community a bit more before posting. Your enthusiasm is definitely a good thing, but you need more knowledge before posting in this thread.

And btw, here is a small update:

Hydreigon : C ---> C-
Rotom-H: C ---> C-
Quagsire: B+ ---> B
Rhyperior: B- ---> B
Jirachi: B ---> B+
Empoleon: C- ---> C
Zapdos: B ---> B-
Umbreon: D ---> Unranked

All of those were pretty much unanimously agreed on, so i don't think there is anything to explain.

I would like to see a bit more discussion about Sylveon rising to B-, as it's something i am seriously considering.

I think Sylveon is certainly deserving of B-, I find it's physically defensive cleric set to be great at supporting team mates with heal bell, and breaking down attackers slowly but surely by using wish/protect and hyper voice making it a little more aggressive than most other walls and clerics. I also find it pretty easy to plug into a lot of teams.

 

[Karxrida]

Agreeing with Sylveon moving up, it's a pretty good cleric. Unlike Clefable it has immediate offensive presence with Pixilate Hyper Voice and a higher Special Attack stat, preventing it from being complete Taunt bait. Its uninvested Special bulk is much better and lets it check the likes of Keldeo, Thundurus, Greninja, and even Landorus-I much more easily than Clefable can.

 

[Salemance]

I'm not gonna lie, for some reason I had assumed Sylv was already in the B ranks....... Its been a phenonimal mon for the most part and it certainly fulfills its role as a dragon stopper better than some others (sorry Togekiss but Sylv isn't as strapped for move slots as you are sometimes) and I think its quite worth moving up in the same ranking as Zapdos and Chestnaught.

 

[theV8man]

Sylveon is great. If you go physically defensive, there are very few moves in OU that OHKO it, it can check Mega Hera, Mega Cham, Keldeo, and other major threats. It passes big wishes, and if you want to you can take full advantage of it's special bulk, although this leaves it a bit helpless on the physical side. Finally theres the Choice Specs set which is excellent and unpredictable against offensive teams. I think I can see it going to B-, but not really much higher because it's greatly outclassed as a fairy type in OU in general.

 

[Aragorn the King]

If sylveon rises, it'd only be for its specs set imo, since I'd rather use Clefable if it's going defensive. This is basically due to Clefable's access to a strong fire move, which acts as a stop to Ferro + Scizor + other steels, better defensive abilities that let it do stuff like wall setup sweepers (unaware) and avoid sr, toxic, burn, and leech seed damage (magic guard). Sylveon is stronger, yes, and can hit mons behind a substitute, but defensively I'd only even consider it if my team was incredibly Landorus-I weak. The defensive set does have a niche, but it's outclassed relatively, so I'd personally give that set a C-. Its two other sets, the primary one being specs, is much more unique to Sylveon - it hits ridiculously hard with specs, and has the coverage (psychic for poisons and ground for steels) to obliterate much of what walls it. It also has baton pass, which is great for luring in things that wall it, like Scizor and passing to Magnezone to trap them. Of course, this is in part to how awesome Magnezone is, but Sylveon's ability to gain momentum while also able to hit really hard is amazing. It also has its CM BP set, which is certainly losing popularity, but it isn't bad by any means. I'm not entirely convinced it should be moved up, but I definitely think it should (like Toge!!).

Also in my last post I forgot to mention I think I agree to moving Mence up to C-. If we agree to keep relatively bad stuff with or without a tiny niche in D, Mence doesn't fit in. Its scarf set is actually pretty cool now, and faces low competition thanks to its coverage and access to Moxie. It does face competition with garchomp, but the ability to use garchomp in a different role while using mence as your scarfer is really cool. It's not great by any means, but it's much more similar to Haxorus as a dragon than it is to Zygarde, imho.

 

[Synchronation]

I think one of the main problems of Sylveon was the fact that it was TOTALLY outclassed by Chansey. Both are special sponges, can be used as a Cleric and Wish-supporter. However, Sylveon has one thing that Chansey doesn't have, and in the metagame right now it is something that you never shouldn't have: Offensive presence.
A pixilate Hyper Voice of Sylveon is a very good offensive presence thanks to its great typing and not being setup-fodder for sweepers and cleaners. Sylveon has decent special attack and great base power in Hyper Voice, so even uninvested it does a ton of damage to frailer Pokemon. Not only that, but it can hit behind subs, a nice little bonus to punish setup-sweepers even more.

Now this is nothing really new, but there is one more thing: the existence of Clefable. Most people are saying that it is outclassed by Clefable as a Fairy-Cleric. However, they are misslead. Sylveon is way stronger than Clefable (more special attack + Hyper Voice > Moon Blast) and has a better special bulk while only be slightly frailer on the physical side. Sylveons niche over Clefable is a SUPERIOR WALL WITH MORE HITTING POWER. Sylveon can tank, what Clefable fails to do, like Keldeo or non-Sludge Wave-Landorus.

To keep it short, Sylveon should rise to B- because it can now outclass Chansey as a Cleric, Wish-supporter and special wall thanks to being not passive and it is not completly outclassed by Clefable because of a higher offensive presence and superior bulk.

 

[Albacore]

Okay, it took me way too long to realise this, but Quagsire is not good. Like, really not good at all. I know it just dropped to B, but I feel like this is still way too high for it, and that it should drop even as far as C+, because in this metagame, with all the powerful attacks flying around, it just cannot cope, especially when you have much better options in Alomomola and especially Slowbro who is just superior in almost every way. The only things it deals with better than Slowbro are electric types (such as Thundurus, Raikou, and MManectric, which I will admit is pretty nice, but stall teams almost always run a bulky grass type anyway so these Pokemon aren't really threatening to most stalla to teh point where you need an extra anwser to them) Bisharp, TTar (though Slowbro can even take scarfed Crunches decently), and DD XZard (who is slipping in relevancy pretty fast) It straight-up loses to every wallbreaker in the tier due to the fact that its natural bulk is just not very good. It is just as much setup fodder as Alomomola, and unlike Mola it doesn't make up for it with insane support (all it has for support is Toxic which literally everything else can do).
I'm probably exaggerating how bad Quagsire is, but the fact of the matter is, even it it does the job of a bulky water okay, and has some perks over its competitors, it's really hard to justify using it over Pokemon who are not just better in most scenarios, but also can be used on more playstyles than just full stall. In that sense, it's a lot like Sylveon, who has obvious palpable qualities over Clefable as a wishpasser, yet who lacks so many of its pros that it becomes pretty much impossible to use over Clefable and make it actually worth it. And Regenerator is one hell of a pro. What Regenerator does it not only extend your longevity, not only let you stall out a lot of attackers, but also give you a safety net in case you take a hit that turns out to be a bit too much. So many times I have seen Quagsire switch in on, say, XZard, while being at around 80%, and take a Dragon Claw from it, realizing it cannot take another, and put its user is a really bad position. If the Quagsire user had opted for Slowbro instead, not only would it have probably been at full when it switched in, but he could also have switched out to get some of Slowbro's health back, and then switch back in to take on the XZard again. And for a playstyle as vulnerable to stray crits and random coverage moves as stall, when losing your answer to a Pokemon can give the opponent an automatic victory, you need that safety net, more than you need one for setup (which can be predicted with far more accuracy than say, a crit earthquake).
So yeah, Regenerator is far more valuable for stall than Unaware right now, and you have to try hard to justify using Quagsire in this metagame. I really think C+ is fitting.

Jirachi is really good oml. I genuinely think it can move up to A- since it just deals with so many threats and does it so well, provides great support with Wish, and is just a really massive pain in the ass to face especially if you go against the SubToxic set. It's at least on par with Chansey and Skarm (who are somehow still A-...) as a defensive Pokemon, and it can even run offensive sets like Scarf to boot. It's just a very solid and versatile Pokemon in this metagame, not much more to say.
And yes, I know that both these Pokemon have already rightfully been moved very recently, but now that they've been brought to our attention and have gained some momentum, and have both led to unanimous agreement, it seems like the right time to discuss them even more.

Also, any thoughts about Celebi moving to B+? It hasn't had much discussion, and I still stand by my statement that it's a really good defensive mon which takes hits from both sides of the spectrum really well, walls key threats, provides really good support, and has quite a bit of versatility to boot.

 

[Tressed]

Also, any thoughts about Celebi moving to B+? It hasn't had much discussion, and I still stand by my statement that it's a really good defensive mon which takes hits from both sides of the spectrum really well, walls key threats, provides really good support, and has quite a bit of versatility to boot.

I'll second this. Been running Jukain's Bulky NP set, it's quite effective at shutting down stuff like Keldeo and Suicune, and checks quite a few other things as well, like Azumarill, Rotom-W, Landorus, not to mention that it makes for a decent sweeper once the other team gets down to things you can take a hit from or outrun, which is a surprising amount of stuff. I'd say it's fair to match it with Suicune atm. Suicune's got better bulk and typing by far, but Celebi is less passive, boosts up much faster, has some nice coverage options to lure in and kill a variety of stuff (Ferrothorn and Scizor with HP Fire, Venusaur with Psychic, Heatran with Earth Power) and isn't prone to RNG like Suicune can be. Not too familiar with other sets, but I'd reckon it deserves to be ranked in the same area as Victini, Torn-T, and Suicune, and imo it's far more relevant than Mandibuzz.