Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[WideTomato]

All right, I gonna put my last words on the stoutland for D

It's not great, indeed but it can be used alongside exca on a more heavy sand team, an it can weaken excas counters, while not being total garbage with return STAB. And why would you even say that it needs a band? It's not like exca need a orb to function either. And really, compared to the current D rank it also gave some niches, and I would even say that it's easier to fit on a team than tortera or mantine. I'll still say it's fine in D

As for blissey, I'd say that passive recovery and not heavily item depending is enough to justify its use over chansey on select teams. also if your using it alongside TTar or abormasnow, passive recovery is really nice, to neutralize passive sand or hail damage. It's ability to continuously switch into rocks is also a lot better, as you'll have your health back after just 2 turns. It also have a smaller niche in the actually existing attack stat, meaning you could run ice beam or fire blast to catch some of the stuff that often switch in, such as landorus, ferro or scizor. Blissey is fine in D

 

[Karxrida]

All right, I gonna put my last words on the stoutland for D

It's not great, indeed but it can be used alongside exca on a more heavy sand team, an it can weaken excas counters, while not being total garbage with return STAB. And why would you even say that it needs a band? It's not like exca need a orb to function either. And really, compared to the current D rank it also gave some niches, and I would even say that it's easier to fit on a team than tortera or mantine. I'll still say it's fine in D

Stoutland can't even OHKO bulky Mega Scizor or Ferrothorn with a Band and a x4 effective Fire Fang unless Rocks are up, and even then it's not guaranteed.
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 280-332 (79.5 - 94.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 116 Def Mega Scizor: 288-340 (83.9 - 99.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Fucker's weak and not worth it.

(btw STAB Return is garbage when it has no coverage. Diggersby and Mega Mom get away with it because they both hit fucking hard without an item, have secondary STAB (for Diggersby) or several coverage options (for Mega Mom), strong Priority, and Swords Dance/Power Up Punch to boost.)

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

If anything Blissey should rise to C-/C/C+. The fact that she can kill Landorus-I/-T, Gliscor and weakened Dragonite is fucking enormous, and Mega Scizor and Ferro would hesitate to switch into her either due to her possibly carrying Flamethrower. Then there's the whole Knock Off thing and the fact that she works better in sand teams than Chansey. Blissey is definitely not outclassed and should move up.

 

[SomeKidFromJohto]

Well, I don't have an overt opinion on these two, but I seem to notice the real question in regards to stoutland and blissey is the same: is being barely usable in an extremely narrow context enough to warrant a ranking? From the arguments, it's obvious that both have extremely limited but still arguably noticeable uses. They may not be good uses, but they are unique enough to be a thing. But exactly where is the line between bad and insignificant? How many pokemon with similar roles have to outclass something before it gets deranked? It seems like we aren't even arguing over them, but over the intricacies of the ranking system itself, so it'd be helpful to have a clearer consensus on what constitutes a rank/derank. I don't expect exact details, as at the end of the day, this is still a subjective debate, but still, it'd be nice to be closer to the same page. What I seem to see is a split between the arguments (that haven't really been openly said, but implied) that anything with a small niche deserves a rank, versus the idea that if enough things outclass that niche, then it doesn't deserve a rank. So I think that we could all benefit from some clarification of that line, so that we can come to a more accepted conclusion here.

 

[Karxrida]

Well, I don't have an overt opinion on these two, but I seem to notice the real question in regards to stoutland and blissey is the same: is being barely usable in an extremely narrow context enough to warrant a ranking? From the arguments, it's obvious that both have extremely limited but still arguably noticeable uses. They may not be good uses, but they are unique enough to be a thing. But exactly where is the line between bad and insignificant? How many pokemon with similar roles have to outclass something before it gets deranked? It seems like we aren't even arguing over them, but over the intricacies of the ranking system itself, so it'd be helpful to have a clearer consensus on what constitutes a rank/derank. I don't expect exact details, as at the end of the day, this is still a subjective debate, but still, it'd be nice to be closer to the same page. What I seem to see is a split between the arguments (that haven't really been openly said, but implied) that anything with a small niche deserves a rank, versus the idea that if enough things outclass that niche, then it doesn't deserve a rank. So I think that we could all benefit from some clarification of that line, so that we can come to a more accepted conclusion here.

Stoutland is hilariously outclassed at being a Sand Sweeper and is far easier to take advantage of. The only "perks" it has over Excadrill are trading 1 priority weakness for several very damning neutralities (making it easier to revenge by Talonflame or just throwing a Thundurus at it) and being slightly bulkier (which doesn't matter since it's far easier to deal with).

Blissey's biggest perks are not being screwed by 4 Attacks Landorus and having enough Special Attack to run Fire Blast/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt to stop it from becoming complete setup bait for certain threats, though the cost of bulk and still being passive to everything else makes it a dubious choice for a team.

And I've already started to repeat myself, so I'm going to (try to) take a break from this discussion and let you anti-Stoutlites handle things.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

I don't know the case of Stoutland, but I know the case of Blissey.

Blissey's main niche is passive recovery in the form of Leftover. True, Chansey may run leftovers, but then she can't run the Eviolite. The niche of restoring 6,25% HP per turn is more important than you may think.

For example, I will take Keldeo's Hydro Pump vs Blissey and Chansey.
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 171-202 (26.2 - 30.9%) -- 8.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 136-162 (21.1 - 25.2%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO

If you take Leftovers, both of them fair similarly to Keldeo's Hydro Pump (true, oth lose to Secret Sword).

Let's take other example of a weaker special attacker, Thundurus.
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 95-113 (14.7 - 17.6%) -- possible 6HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 121-142 (18.5 - 21.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

Given that both of them deal similarly vs a lot of special attackers, Blissey has a niche to Chansey in having passive recovery.

The other niches of Blissey is not being that crippled with utility Knock Off (they still lose to Knock off's from Bisharp, Mega Absol or Weavile), take less from residual damage thanks to Leftovers, and having the possibility of using a lure attack (mainly Flamethrower and Ice Beam) to fight certain threats.

Chansey is in general superior, because it can actually deal with many not-so strong (or fighting-type) physical attackers and because she takes similar from moderate powerful special attack and less damage from powerful special attacks.

Given what I said, I think that:
Chansey should stay in A- rank.
lissey should be C/C- rank.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Blissey (D) -> Unranked | I'm with the majority on this one. Blissey may be able to counter most Landorus-I sets and can run an offensive move, but it suffers from many issues that generally just don't make it worth using in OU. First of all, the special moves it runs when uninvested are quite weak. Secondly, as a support Pokémon, Blissey is completely outclassed by its pre-evolution Chansey as a supportive Pokémon. Besides being able to run an offensive move, it'll still be hardwalled by something that can smash its innards out (read: physical attackers, which are really common).
Overall, I just don't think Blissey is worth using in OU as long as it has no real defining niche over Chansey, so throw it off the rankings.

Zapdos (B-) -> C+ | I can agree on Zapdos moving down another notch. As I've established before, Zapdos wants to be a Defogger and Flying Spam check at the same time, but is horribly inconsistent at performing both at once. As a Defogger, it's plagued by a SR weakness, limiting its necessary opportunities to switch in. Secondly, its 90/85/90 bulk, while good, isn't quite great; since many of the Flying Spam Pokémon can either boost their Attack (SD Talonflame/Mega Pinsir) or just hit extremely fucking hard from the get-go (CB Staraptor), Zapdos can't check many of these Pokémon at all. If it doesn't run the physically defensive set, Adamant CB Staraptor can OHKO with Double-Edge without SR up; alternatively, when switching into SR, even the physically defensive variants are OHKOed by Jolly CB Staraptor. On top of all this, the metagame is seriously harsh to the bird, the wallbreaker Megas giving it a difficult time in particular. Sand Offense, the most popular playstyle at the moment, completely shits all over Zapdos, no matter which coverage option it runs; there's always something on these teams that can force it out or make it nigh-useless. It's also horribly outclassed by the Eons as an offensive Defogger, by Rotom-W and Mega Manectric as Electric-type Flying Spam checks and by Rhyperior and, again, Rotom-W as defensive Flying Spam checks (Rhyperior is more of a counter, but you get my point).
Zapdos just really isn't good in the metagame. It's simply not on par with things like Conkeldurr, Lucario, Entei and Chesnaught, so drop it to C+.

 

[Baharoth]

If by three wallbreakers you mean the three wallbreaker megas you are wrong.

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sylveon: 250-294 (63.4 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sylveon: 307-363 (77.9 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Sylveon can't switch in to Mega Medicham at all. That's not a counter or a check. Even if it switches into a fake out it puts sylveon within range of being killed by a zen headbutt. Even if the sylveon is max defence with a defence boosting nature it is still 2HKOed by zen headbutt and takes a minimum of 42.1% from a high jump kick.

Gardevoir also wins 1v1 if it's the calm mind set and it sets up while sylveon is protecting to get a wish. Sylveon is closer to a Mega Gardevoir check but it still isn't.

Mega Heracross is also a pokemon which sylveon is unable to switch into even unboosted. If it's boosted sylveon is dead.

252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sylveon: 210-245 (53.2 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sylveon: 280-330 (71 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sylveon: 415-490 (105.3 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And even if it's max defence bold:
+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 370-440 (93.9 - 111.6%) -- approx. 87.5% chance to OHKO

So sylveon counters or checks none of these (except gardevoir in some situations). I'm not saying sylveon isn't worthy of a raise. Quite the opposite. But saying that it counters or checks things it doesn't is not a good point for it to be raised. In a later post I will actually nominate something.

As far as i know a check is a mon that always beats another given a free switch in and Sylveon does exactly that against all 3 of them. CM Garde is indeed an exception here but given that hardly anyone uses that, it doesnt realy matter. And Sylveons most common set runs 252+ def so your calcs are wrong to begin with. Max Def Sylveon can switch into Medichams Fake out and Ice Punch, it even has a good chance at surviving the combination of HJK and Zen after 2 rounds of Lefti recovery with protect and into every attack from mega Hera. Against Garde it can come in on Fblast and Psyshock and even on Hypervoice factoring in protect. Taunt can be a problem in this case though.

I can agree on Zapdos moving down another notch. As I've established before, Zapdos wants to be a Defogger and Flying Spam check at the same time, but is horribly inconsistent at performing both at once. As a Defogger, it's plagued by a SR weakness, limiting its necessary opportunities to switch in. Secondly, its 90/85/90 bulk, while good, isn't quite great; since many of the Flying Spam Pokémon can either boost their Attack (SD Talonflame/Mega Pinsir) or just hit extremely fucking hard from the get-go (CB Staraptor), Zapdos can't check many of these Pokémon at all. If it doesn't run the physically defensive set, Adamant CB Staraptor can OHKO with Double-Edge without SR up; alternatively, when switching into SR, even the physically defensive variants are OHKOed by Jolly CB Staraptor. On top of all this, the metagame is seriously harsh to the bird, the wallbreaker Megas giving it a difficult time in particular. Sand Offense, the most popular playstyle at the moment, completely shits all over Zapdos, no matter which coverage option it runs; there's always something on these teams that can force it out or make it nigh-useless. It's also horribly outclassed by the Eons as an offensive Defogger, by Rotom-W and Mega Manectric as Electric-type Flying Spam checks and by Rhyperior and, again, Rotom-W as defensive Flying Spam checks (Rhyperior is more of a counter, but you get my point).
Zapdos just really isn't good in the metagame. It's simply not on par with things like Conkeldurr, Lucario, Entei and Chesnaught, so drop it to C+.

How about just removing it all together? That way you dont have to repeat the same arguments every 2 weeks to drop it by another rank and i dont get a headache everytime i see them.

Zapdos -> unranked

 

[Alfalfa]

As far as i know a check is a mon that always beats another given a free switch in and Sylveon does exactly that against all 3 of them. CM Garde is indeed an exception here but given that hardly anyone uses that, it doesnt realy matter. And Sylveons most common set runs 252+ def so your calcs are wrong to begin with. Max Def Sylveon can switch into Medichams Fake out and Ice Punch, it even has a good chance at surviving the combination of HJK and Zen after 2 rounds of Lefti recovery with protect and into every attack from mega Hera. Against Garde it can come in on Fblast and Psyshock and even on Hypervoice factoring in protect. Taunt can be a problem in this case though.




How about just removing it all together? That way you dont have to repeat the same arguments every 2 weeks to drop it by another rank and i dont get a headache everytime i see them.

Zapdos -> unranked

Unranking Zapdos when it is currently at B- is too extreme. You start at nominating it down to C+ rank, then to C rank if you want.

If anything Blissey should rise to C-/C/C+. The fact that she can kill Landorus-I/-T, Gliscor and weakened Dragonite is fucking enormous, and Mega Scizor and Ferro would hesitate to switch into her either due to her possibly carrying Flamethrower. Then there's the whole Knock Off thing and the fact that she works better in sand teams than Chansey. Blissey is definitely not outclassed and should move up.

Most sand teams are offensive. Blissey is a huge momentum killer and therefore does not fit onto most sand teams (neither does Chansey by the way). Being less weak to Knock Off looks good on paper, but Blissey has problems with a lot of Pokemon that Chansey has little troubles due to the lack of bulk.

 

[Albacore]

Yeah basically what TRC said. The rise of SpD Gliscor on stall means that the need for a Chansey which beats Knock Off Landorus-I became much less needed since Gliscor is on a lot of stall team so why not use that and gain a ton of utility in the process instead of resorting to use what is basically a worse Chansey. That added to the fact that the niche of beating Gliscor with Ice Beam doesn't really exist anymore since most Gliscors are SpD and can easily stall out Ice Beans with Roost.

I really, really don't buy the argument of "you can hit things with Flamethrower/Ice Beam!" Let's look at some the things you hit with these moves :

- Landorus-I : Defenitely the most relevant thing Ice Beam hits, since it lets you beat the CM variant 1v1. But that variant is rather uncommon, from what I've seen, and it can still 2HKO you if it CMs as you switch into it. Still, you have a reliable Lando-I counter, but as I said Stall doesn't need one of these as badly anymore.
- Landorus-T : Yeah, you can hit this with an Ice Beam as it sets up rocks in your face/EQs you. Or you could use Chansey, take around 35% from EQ if it's physically defensive and Toxic stall it, or if it's Scarfed, take the hit slightly less well but still way better than Blissey you gets straight-up 2HKO'd by said Scarf variant (and who, by the way, fails to OHKO even the Choice Scarf variant, so it loses 1v1 anyway, unlike Chansey who beats it bar crits). Or you could even switch to one of the myriad Lando-T counters on Stall. Stall is really, really not threatened by Lando-T at all, so I don't see why you would need extra support from a Pokemon who does more damage to it over a shorter period of time but still basically loses to it. Needless to say, this is not relevant at all.
- Dragonite : Excuse me, how the hell is this relevant? Please, do not keep Blissey in on Dragonite, you deserve the banded Outrage that will OHKO it (oh yeah, Blissey gets OHKO'd by Banded Dragonite Outrage, unlike Chansey who avoids the OHKO, unless Blissey runs HP EVs in which case it still does up to 98%.) You might as well run Counter Chansey, which is a pretty bad idea since, although it means Chansey will take out a threat, it also leaves it at very low health which lets something Chansey is supposed to counter to plow through the rest of the team. Same problem here : you potentially take a ton of damage and it's really not worth it. And besides, stall isn't usually weak to Dragonite, so
- Garchomp : Deals with it a bit better than Dragonite I guess since Outrage doesn't do nearly as much (Banded Garchomp not existing and all), but still, what are you doing keeping Blissey in on Garchomp when you realistically should have good anwsers to it on your team? If you somehow manage to make Dragonite or Garchomp-weak stall, there are other things you should be worrying about *cough* XZard *cough* It's alright though, Blissey can learn Earthquake and do a whole 10% while it barely lives Flare Blitz!
- Mega-Garchomp : Okay, this is a bit more relevant, since MGarchomp actually threatens stall quite a bit. But it easily beats Blissey 1v1 anyway, and the "just use Counter" argument still stands. Oh, and guess what doesn't lose to MGarchomp without forcing it to lock itself into Outrage. That's right, SpD Gliscor! So yeah, there are better ways to deal with MChomp than replacing Chansey with Blissey and just sticking Ice Beam on it.

- MScizor : This is probably the mot relevant thing Flamethrower hits and yes, it does stop you from being setup fodder for MScizor which is nice. But I really don't buy this argument since stall generally has a good answer to MScizor, so doesn't really need to worry about it to the point where it has to use Blissey over Chansey. Furthermore, MZor can easily just U-Turn and rack up damage on Blissey while running away in the process.
- Ferrothorn : lol, Blissey can't even 2HKO even the more physically defensive variants and gives it a gazillion health back with Leech Seed. Even worse if it has Protect. Blissey can't deal with Ferrothorn no matter what it does.

So in most of these cases, either stall isn't threatened by these Pokemon, either it doesn't even deal with them well, or both. The only exception is CM Landorus, but that's so specific that it would be like ranking Jolteon because it checks Jolly SD Talonflame without taking up a Mega slot, even though it needs 80 Defense EVs to even do that. Blissey didn't really lose its niche, but said nice became way less relevant, so I fully support its deraking.

 

[Poek]

I always thought Zapdos main niche was a defogger that wasn't beaten by Bisharp and a counter to Mega Pinsir, not to bird spam in general, as even back in the day where the Talonflames were banded they could just 2hko you with a banded flare blitz, so I don't know why bird spam is an argument to drop it down.

 

[Alfalfa]

I always thought Zapdos main niche was a defogger that wasn't beaten by Bisharp and a counter to Mega Pinsir, not to bird spam in general, as even back in the day where the Talonflames were banded they could just 2hko you with a banded flare blitz, so I don't know why bird spam is an argument to drop it down.

Rapid Spin is becoming more and more common though, making the need for a Defogger that does not lose to Bisharp less relevant.

 

[Poek]

Rapid Spin is becoming more and more common though, making the need for a Defogger that does not lose to Bisharp less relevant.

I know, that's why it's B- now. I was clearing out that Zapdos has never been a bird spam stopper.

 

[Kyuzeth]

I always thought Zapdos main niche was a defogger that wasn't beaten by Bisharp and a counter to Mega Pinsir, not to bird spam in general, as even back in the day where the Talonflames were banded they could just 2hko you with a banded flare blitz, so I don't know why bird spam is an argument to drop it down.

The argument is that it's outclassed as a Flying Spam check. Other Pokémon do a far more reliable job at checking the playstyle and generally have far less flaws than Zapdos. Compared to most Pokémon in B- Rank, it's less consistent and has more flaws than most other Pokémon in the rank, which is another highly important factor when ranking a Pokémon.

 

[Albacore]

The real problem with Zapdos is that it's a defensive Pinsir/flyspam check. And if you want to beat Pinsir/birdspam, you have to go with something fast and offensive otherwise you just get smacked. Honestly, Zapdos is not even a particularly good answer to Pinsir IMO. It gets worn down a ton by it, literally has to roost as it forces Pinsir to switch out, and if it's at low enough health, you can SD on the switch to it and KO it. It's a much better anwser to it than say, Rotom-W, since it does have reliable recovery, but it has a hard time finding an opening to actually use said recovery. And Rock weakeness really doesn't help at all, an fact, it means it can only really switch into Pinsir once without having to Roost. Zapdos is just not an anwser to Birdspam now that Staraptor is a thing, and it's barely an anwser to Pinsir in the first place. If you want a real Birdspam check, use MAero, who is a far better answer to MPinsir, Talonflame, and Staraptor, by virtue of actually outspeeding these Pokemon. This gives it a lot more opportunities to roost off and makes it much more of a threat to the opposing team. The fast of the matter is, defensive Birdspam checks are not good by default, and that's what Zapdos tries to be, so no wonder it fails.

 

[MagikaripIsOP]

If anything Blissey should rise to C-/C/C+. The fact that she can kill Landorus-I/-T, Gliscor and weakened Dragonite is fucking enormous, and Mega Scizor and Ferro would hesitate to switch into her either due to her possibly carrying Flamethrower. Then there's the whole Knock Off thing and the fact that she works better in sand teams than Chansey. Blissey is definitely not outclassed and should move up.

oml i hate when people say blissey > chansey in sand. The situation is still the exact same i.e. Blissey gets an extra 6% hp difference at the end of the turn. -6% vs 0% at the end of the turn is the same as 0% hp vs 6% hp. It's still a difference of 6% nigga. Like @alfafa said both of them don't fit in sand anyway. Chansey > Blissey because when getting hit by 33% (pretty sure that's the correct number) or more damage Chansey ends up with more hp. Anything less than 33% shouldn't even matter anyway because softboiled.

 

[SaberSeven]

I want to lobby for Celebi for B+ rank. Celebi has the ability to beat rain offense, bulky waters, and most importantly, check/counter 4 out of 5 of the S ranked threats in the meta (Mega Charizard X being the exception).

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-165391466 Here's an example of Celebi dealing with one of said S-Ranked threats

Defensive Celebi also has a wide support movepool that it can utilize. It can use Thunder Wave to cripple threats such as Greninja, Mega Medicham, Terrakion lacking X-Scissor, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Gyarados, Lati@s, etc. Heal Bell helps Celebi's team recover from status. Baton Pass helps Celebi either dodge Pursuit trappers such as Tyranitar, give the team switch initiative, or pass Nasty Plot or Calm Mind boosts to another Pokemon. If need be, Celebi can also run Stealth Rock on a slot for hazard damage. Another uncommon option to beat set up sweepers is Perish Song.

Celebi also has solid offensive potential. Life Orb Earth Power beats Heatran. Celebi can also lure out counters like Mega Pinsir & Talonflame and ruin them with Ancient Power. HP Fire can be used to beat Ferrothorn & Scizor, Psychic can also be used to OHKO Mega Heracross 87.5% of the time & 2HKO Mega Venusaur.

Unfortunately for Celebi, it is outclassed by Mega Venusaur who has better bulk and offenses and less (of a Knock Off) weakness(es). However, Celebi does have perks over Mega Venusaur. Celebi has the ability to cripple Mega Medicham with Thunder Wave while Mega Venusaur can't risk taking a Zen Headbutt. Celebi can handle Landorus-I whom Mega Venusaur tends to have trouble with due to Landorus-I packing Psychic. Celebi also has better recovery in the form of Recover which has twice as many PP as Synthesis. Lastly, Celebi has a bigger movepool than Venusaur offensively and defensively.

tl;dr, With its great bulk and utility, I believe that Celebi should be promoted to B+ rank.

 

[Clair]

Blissey has a massive niche, people are just using the wrong set.

Blissey (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fire Blast
- Blizzard
- Thunder
- Endeavor

This set aims to set Blissey apart from its pre-evo by utilising its superior special attack and ability to hold the Choice Specs. Fire Blast, Blizzard and Thunder provide powerful coverage options which together hit 8 of the 17 types supereffectively. Endeavor is a last ditch attack to severely weaken an opposing sweeper.

Special attack is maximised to reduce the number of threats which can wall this Blissey, while the speed investment is for sweeping lategame when an opponent's faster threats have been removed.

Blissey can't deal with Ferrothorn no matter what it does.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Blissey Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 416-492 (118.1 - 139.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO, rekt

...

If you're using Blissey, you're doing it because you think Lefties is more useful than Eviolite on your team. Please no-one else bring up Blissey's special attacking capabilities.

 

[MagikaripIsOP]

But lefties is never more useful.

 

[zbr]

But lefties is never more useful.

Pretty sure you get his point. Wallbreaker Blissey (AKA the offensive set) is useless. Jirachi performs this infinitely better. Blissey should be deranked.

 

[SaberSeven]

Let's make things clear for Blissey: She has a great support movepool in the form of Thunder Wave, Toxic, biggest Wishes in the game, Heal Bell, etc. She can also avoid being Taunt bait in the form of Seismic Toss (or Counter to mess with physical attackers). But guess what? So does little sister Chansey. What's the difference? Chansey has better bulk with her Eviolite. Blissey is also outclassed by A+ ranked Clefable who can do all those things as well WITH BETTER TYPING (and physical bulk for that matter)! Blissey also loses to anything that sports a solid physical attacking stat, fighting types, Psyshock users, Keldeo's Secret Sword (252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 750-884 (115 - 135.5%)), Anything that packs Taunt (Thundurus, Gengar (who can also mess with it using SubSplit), the Stallbreaker Talonflame set, etc), loses its Leftovers to Knock Off, and other things. Wait...Blissey has Fire Blast to deal with Ferrothorn better than her sister? Hold up there, sparky. 0 SpA Blissey Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 192-228 (54.5 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. And Ferrothorn can Leech Seed a heavy portion of that HP back (23% provided Blissey's running 4 HP. Even more with 252 HP). And provided it's running Protect as well, Ferrothorn has the ability to stall out Blissey's HP. Base 75 SpA isn't that good in this metagame. Besides, Blissey would MUCH rather run Seismic Toss over Fire Blast. Same thing can be said with Ice Beam. Yeah it hits both Landorus forms, Gliscor, Dragonite, and (Mega) Garchomp for quad effective damage, but they can all beat Blissey back with the appropriate set. +1 CM Landorus 2HKOs Blissey with Focus Blast. Furthermore, Blissey is offensively outclassed to deal with these things by a wide(er than her waistline) plethora of things in the OU metagame.

tl;dr, I think it's pretty clear to everyone that Blissey should be Unranked.

 

[Celticpride]

Blissey really can't run an offensive move easily. Seismic Toss is a must, because otherwise your useless. So what are you going to run?

Seismic toss
Ice Beam/Fire Blast
Protect
Wish

You can Wish Pass sure, however you lose the ability to run Heal Bell or TWave for additional support. Or, run Soft Boiled to condence the Healing to one slot, but then you can't pass Wishes. Running offensive moves on Bliss leads itself to 4mss.

 

[AM]

So in an attempt to actually talk about relevant stuff I'm going to suggest a couple of quick things.

Stoutland discussion is cancer

C+ > C This is more along the lines of getting some discussion for this. I understand usage doesn't equate to viability but I never see this thing, and I really mean never. I've never actually had someone even consider using this in OU and I've only seen it like once in the past several months that didn't really reflect its viability more so than the players skill level. It seems like it was way better in the M-Mawile era, which is gone now. I feel like it should drop but I guess if someone ca make a convincing argument for it to stay I'm all ears.

C+ > B- Crawdaunt just has a stupid amount of power behind it and it's something a lot of people come unprepared for because they're more concerned with things like Azumarill. +2 Crawdaunt is a monster and it has a spammable movepool that can put a hole in teams when utilized well. If it's slower than Crawdaunt and if it doesn't resist its movepool, chances are it's getting hurt tremendously or taken out pretty much. We got stuff like Weavile and Conkeldurr in B- so I don't see how we can keep Crawdaunt in the same boat as things like Klefki and Espeon. Makes no sense and I think it should go up.

C > C+ Ok so I've been using this a lot more and its definitely better and more relevant than half the stuff in C and some in C+. I'm not going off the Choice sets cause they're ok at best, but the Stallbreaker and Subsplit sets are pretty fantastic. Checks or screws over a lot of relevant attackers through the use of its typing or Will-O-Wisp and the shift towards bulky offense has made these sets more viable for Chandelure imo.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Except Life Orb Excadrill is stronger, faster, has a better STAB, and the ability to change moves compared to CB Stoutland. It wasn't even good last gen and it's useless now with Excadrill in ou

Well that isn't exactly true; Stoutland was actually pretty cool last gen. However this gen it really doesn't have a place in Ou. It is wicked fast in the sand, is powerful, and has great coverage, but it's far too reliant on the sand to be effective. Plus, it faces extreme competition with excadrill. Yes, you can use both, but when using stoutland, you lose out on precious sand turns for excadrill, who is almost infinitely superior. I actually do think it's better than blissey, but IMO that's more of a testament to how bad blissey is. Stoutland isn't a bad Mon; it can be effective. It's just that it is somewhat outclassed and just represents so much opportunity cost. I think it (and bliss) should be unranked).

Okay, I'm going to make a nomination that's probably going to be controversial, and I'm not entirely comfortable with it myself, but I think Ferrothorn should be dropped down to A.

Now, let me make this clear : Ferrothorn is a great wall. It has a fantastic typing, a very useful ability, it deals with a ton of stuff, has really good utility, and fits on a lot of teams very well. However, there is one big problem with Ferrothorn that no other A+ rank really shares, and which bothers me a lot, and that it's very easy to take advantage of. Because while it walls half of the metagame, there are also quite a few Pokemon that can put it in a really bad position. Pokemon, such as Mega-Heracross, Mega-Medicham, Mega-Charizard-Y, Landorus-I, basically most wallbreakers can scare it away, and it doesn't help that tease Pokemon also threatens whatever switches in with a lot of damage. Some of these are also known to carry Substitute which makes them even harder to switch out of. Sure, Ferrothorn can Twave them on the switch. But what if it doesn't? You can't perfectly predict what will switch in and when, so it's very easy to find yourself in a nasty situation against these wallbreakers. And yes, it can Protect on MMedi's HJK. But MMedi can also Sub on the Protect. It all boils down to prediction, but if you make one wrong play you put the rest of your team in danger.

Ferrothorn is pretty much the definition of a double edged sword, and this especially shows up in teambuilding. Whenever I decide put Ferrothorn on a team, I suddenly need something that can switch into Landorus, Heatran, MMedi, MHera, etc... otherwise, I'm going to risk losing something every time I have to sand Ferro in. This is all very hard to fit one team, to the point where I become reluctant to use Ferrothorn no matter how many threats it walls. And it really doesn't help that a lot of Pokemon it would be able to beat (Greninja, Latis, Jirachi,) tend to carry coverage to beat it. Oh, and the ubiquity of Magnezone really makes life hard for Ferrothorn too. And unlike Skarm, it needs its leftovers too much to really be able to afford Shed Shell.

There's also the fact that the A+ rank is really, really strong right now. I'm not kidding when I say that every A+ rank besides Talonflame, MDos, YZard and maybe MHera I could conceivably see in S, and Ferrothorn isn't quite at that level.

I honestly think Ferrothron is on the same level as Slowbro. Both wall a large portion of the metagame, are very easy to fit on teams, and are very hard to wear down, but both can give free turns to very dangerous stuff. They have TWave which lets them play around this somewhat, but can still find themselves being a liability for their team if they find themselves facing these threats, no matter how useful they are in the long run. They're very comparable in many ways. So yeah, I feel Ferrothorn should be moved to A, at least until the metagame stops being so hostile to it.

Just bringing this theme back up for some discussion. Magnezone is really popular now. Like I don't know if I've seen anything other than Bisharp shoot up in usage as it has. Zone is really making the lives of steel types hard, as you really need to be careful when using them. For example, if Azu + Mag are on the same team, and Ferro is your only safe Azu switch in, Azu is probably going to wreck you. Just Magnezone's inflated presence in OU is making Ferrothorn's life harder than it ever was, and I definitely think a decrease to A makes sense. Similarly, Scizor and Mega Scizor absolutely hate Magnezone, Scizor especially, since if its Choice locked into anything but Superpower, it's total Zone bait. Scizor was never particularly good this gen, and I think a) being extreme magnezone bait (yes ik it has superpower, but it isn't its most spamable move. Like, if you bring zor in on cham, you're using bullet punch, not superpower. Also, the attack drop sucks for a lock-in move. If band zor is at full health and is can use super power safely, zone won't be coming in, so I think it's pretty safe to say cb zor hates zone), and b) being REALLY overshadowed by Mega Scizor makes Scizor not worth using the majority of the time (9 times out of 10 i'd rather the defensive boost + ability to use roost over the extra power). However, not even Mega Scizor is safe from Magnezone's wrath, since it also gets trapped and 2hkod by scarf variants. I think it's imaginable to drop these three mons because of Magnezone, and it also definitely would make sense to rise magnezone. Stuff in B+ isn't bad, it's just that they don't have as much of an impact on OU as Magnzone does. It's much safer put in A-, but tbh I think it's actually better than every A- mon, barring maybe Diggersby.

 

[Durant]

I am sick of this dumb Stoutland and Blissey talk both shouldn't be on the viability rankings.

Agreeing with Ferrothorn to A. Can't add more to what has already been mentioned though.

Magnezone should definetly move up because it is so good right now. Every Steel type bar Heatran basically got worse just because of this thing. The amount of support it gives by removing the likes of Skarmory, Ferrothorn, most Scizor etc is just huge and allows scary Pokemon like Mega Pinsir to sweep teams. Due to this it can also form cores with just about every Pokemon that hates a particular Steel type like Azumarill, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Pinsir etc. All around just a great way to support a lot of Pokemon. I think this could even move up to A but that may happen later.

Mega Aggron I can see dropping. It is not a bad Pokemon at all but who even uses this. Mega Aggron also has that Mega Blastoise thing to him where he would be way better if he didn't take up a Mega slot. I mean surely he can set up Stealth Rock, phaze with Dragon Tail or Roar and he can stop quite a few Pokemon but there are a lot of other Pokemon that can fill similar roles without taking up that mega slot. Not a bad Pokemon it is just that I don't see a real reason to ever use this.

Don't have an opinion about Crawdaunt and I could see him going either way.

As for Chandelure I do think it should move up. It can do quite a number of different sets like Choice sets, Subsplit and Subcm and each one has use. It has a great special attack stat and the coverage to back it up. Defensively his typing is also quite useful. Surely Chandelure isn't exactly a wall but his typing does give him a lot of opportunities to switch in and he is also one of the few spinblockers left in the tier. It also doesn't suck that much as most other things in C.